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Post by Shinobu on Mar 13, 2021 22:02:45 GMT
In general, Bioware tries to be sensitive to stereotypes and avoid them; however, they sometimes make errors without meaning to. Part of this is that they don't have representatives of every type of human on their dev team to give them a reality check. (For example, IIRC David Gaider told an anecdote of a Dragon Age story meeting where the female writers alerted their male counterparts to the fact that some scenario they were creating was uncomfortably rape-y, allowing them to rewrite it before it became an issue.)
Many years ago in my PnP RPG group I challenged the GM to make an NPC, give them a backstory and personality, and then randomly generate their sex afterward. We ended up with a strong, one-eyed, dashing princess charming. Sometimes I feel Bioware might be well served by having the writers make each character's story and personality first and then roll dice to determine gender, race and sexual orientation. Then they can go back and reassess whatever doesn't work. Some things become obviously problematic when seen coming from a person from a different group; for example Wonder Woman having sex with Steve Trevor who is in some random dude's body in WW84. If Superman had sex with an unknown woman who happened to be possessed by Lois Lane's spirit, we would more easily realize that's a terrible idea.
In the spirit of helping Bioware out, please:
1) identify yourself as a member of a group,
2) explain a stereotype about your group that you don't want to see perpetuated
3) give examples of characters (from Bioware games or other media) that either reinforce this stereotype or avoid it 4) suggest ways to make stereotypical characters less so
In my opinion, subverting a stereotype by doing the opposite thing is not much better than playing into it because it's still using a stereotype as a reference.
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Post by Shinobu on Mar 13, 2021 22:04:03 GMT
As an Asian, some stereotypes I'd like to see avoided:
Asians are ninjas: Examples: Kasumi and Kai Leng. I'd say most of the trope-yness comes from the character design. Kasumi is a fun character and she'd be perfectly fine as she is written if she dressed like Emily Wong or in any non-ninja outfit. Kai Leng would also be fine if he dressed like a normal human and used a gun instead of a sword. (I mean, he'd still be an asshole, but at least not an Asian stereotype.)
Asians are corpos: Examples: Ethan Jeong (heartless corpo) and Maeko Matsuo (loyal samurai corpo). I think many devs on the original team are around my age, so grew up in the cyberpunk era. North America in the 80's had a love/hate relationship with Japan. Japanese women got fetishized as subservient/loyal (usually geisha) and Japanese men were seen as heartless corporate operatives bent on economic takeover so they could make America soulless and uniform. Jeong is best fixed by not being Asian; Maeko would be fine if she stopped sprinkling "-sama" into her speech. At least she didn't have an "Engrish" accent. The words I don't want to hear from an Asian face in Mass Effect are: "my honor does not allow..." "kung fu/karate" "-san, -kun, -sama, -sempaiiii, -hime, -sensei."
Asians are model minorities/good girls: Example: Samantha Traynor. The ones who always calculate the tip at the end of a group dinner, have boring hobbies and worry about disappointing their tiger moms. Making Traynor a lesbian went a good way toward making her less stereotypical. It would have been nice if she had more interesting hobbies like high stakes poker or competitive dancing rather than space chess.
Asians are treacherous: Example: Maya Brooks. They smile and flatter, then stab you in the back. Maya gets double points for playing a good girl AND being treacherous.
Asian women are sex dolls;Asian men are emotionless/unsexy: I think Bioware avoided this, mostly by not having any Asian love interests in Mass Effect, unless you count Kaidan Alenko as Asian (in which case he would be completely not a stereotype). In Dragon Age, Dorian is a really good example of a sexy Asian man. He also goes against stereotypes by not being treacherous or emotionless, so good job, Bioware! Also, Ramon Tikaram is a treasure and I'd love for him to voice a Mass Effect love interest.
Asians in Mass Effect who do not fall into stereotypes: Fai Dan (Leader of Zhu's hope), Khalisah Bint-Sinan Al Jilani, Captain Dunn, Grace Sato (Ontarom tech in ME3).
Characters who would be great as non-stereotypical Asians: Liam Kosta, Cora Harper, Ashley Williams, Jack, Dr. Chakwas, Joker, Rupert Gardiner, Kelly Chambers, Gil Brodie.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 14, 2021 2:32:44 GMT
All I want are good written characters and stories. The gender/sex/race is irrelevant if the character is good.
For me Kasumi's outfit derives more from her "thief" archetype than "Asian".
Is Maya Brooks asian? I always thought she was brazilian or some sort of african/german mix.
And Asia is a biiig place. There are so many peoples there. I don't think you can stereotype an "asian". Sure you can do it with a japanese, korean, Indian, etc. But there's so much variety even in these populations, that any sterotype falls flat as well.
. .. ...
Now I want an ME story with an Asian that is a role model emotionless corpo by day, and a treacherous ninja sex doll by night. Who also is a Spectre.
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Post by vonuber on Mar 14, 2021 11:55:49 GMT
As a middle aged white guy I really hope that the poster child / default choice for the next one isn't a generic white guy with generic stubble and generic close cropped hair.
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Post by KaiserShep on Mar 14, 2021 14:51:31 GMT
Personally, I don’t really care all that much about stereotypes. If the game wants to have some hispanic guy jacking sky cars, whatever. If he’s a character that somehow adds to the game by being amusing and believable, I’ll take it lol.
I just want these characters to feel fleshed out and have engaging dialogue. If they can at least get that far, then I guess I can turn my attention to the smaller details.
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Post by sageoflife on Mar 15, 2021 4:00:10 GMT
I just don't want to be screwed over like I have been in three out of four games.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
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Post by helios969 on Mar 15, 2021 8:07:31 GMT
Middle aged white dude.
Shinobu I think this is a very complicated matter. On the one hand as a person who's personal mantra is "be respectful" I strive to not make those sorts of assumptions about be people I interact with, on the other hand if every person representing every type of group put together such a wide-reaching list of things not to do you're not going to be able to write much of a story. This is much that's wrong with current Hollywood writing with their attempt to be all-inclusive and not be offensive...it's sterilized and frankly pretty boring. Let me put it out there in another way. I'm tired of older white men being portrayed as ego-maniacal, power-hungry zealots controlling the fates of nations and peoples - about as cliché as it gets, therefore we need to get rid of Martin Sheen's character model and replace with a minority or maybe have "the illusive woman" despite the fact that the illusive man is universally loved as an adversary among fans (I think).
I know we've entered a period of hypersensitivity in western societies but if writers strip away everything and anything that might be offensive to one group or another you won't have anything to work with. I'm sure we could point to anything regarding any human character portrayed by Bioware as offensive. What I would prefer is for Bioware to tackle these issues straight on...have some companions who have issues and through interactions and challenging each others preconceptions develop a mutual respect. No one has ever learned to overcome these things by staying exclusively within their group.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Gileadan on Mar 15, 2021 8:40:45 GMT
I'm a middle aged white guy from Germany and the concept of representation doesn't do much for me. BioWare has never offended me with stereotypes or anything, and the games industry in general tends to portray Germans as either nazis (this carries entire franchises ) or ruthless scientists (XCOM: Enemy Unknown). It doesn't offend me though, I'm having as much fun with Wolfenstein and XCOM as the next guy. And there's always Reinhard in Overwatch who loves listening to Hasselhoff.
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Post by Ieldra on Mar 15, 2021 16:07:28 GMT
I'm a middle aged white guy from Germany and the concept of representation doesn't do much for me. BioWare has never offended me with stereotypes or anything, and the games industry in general tends to portray Germans as either nazis (this carries entire franchises ) or ruthless scientists (XCOM: Enemy Unknown). It doesn't offend me though, I'm having as much fun with Wolfenstein and XCOM as the next guy. [...] Heh....I could've written that word by word.
One notices certain stereotypes, and sometimes they do make you groan. It's more a matter of amusement though, rather than offense, at least as long as you don't have to actively express any stereotype as the character you are playing. If all conversation choices you get in a dialogue node express stereotypes you dislike, then that counts against the game for me. Anything else is fine, and I really couldn't care less about NPCs and their stereotypes as long as they're written reasonably well.
BTW, I like Dr. Vahlen. I wish they'd kept her for XCOM 2.
Edit: The kind of stereotypes I do find offensive are moral stereotypes. One gets a kind of tired immunity, for instance, against "consequentialism is evil", otherwise I would spend far too much time being angry.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Shattered Steel, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem
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Post by ahglock on Mar 15, 2021 16:29:49 GMT
I'm a middle aged white guy from Germany and the concept of representation doesn't do much for me. BioWare has never offended me with stereotypes or anything, and the games industry in general tends to portray Germans as either nazis (this carries entire franchises ) or ruthless scientists (XCOM: Enemy Unknown). It doesn't offend me though, I'm having as much fun with Wolfenstein and XCOM as the next guy. And there's always Reinhard in Overwatch who loves listening to Hasselhoff. For a good 20+ years of my life if a blond male showed up in a American show you could almost guarantee he'd be the bad guy and a racist. It did get a bit wearing eventually, The over the top German nazi didn't bother me despite being 1/2 german as it was more of a trope I got and less negative stereotypes never really bothered me. I don't care about the polish jokes I used to hear on the regular,(my other 1/2) that still crop up to this day. Hell I'll laugh at a good one, I just eye roll the lazy classics.
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Post by Abramsrunner on Mar 15, 2021 17:00:41 GMT
As a Quarian, I do dislike the toaster menace.
Fleet, & Flotilla was mediocre, I never met a Turian without a stick up his exhaust pipe, the Quarian seemed like she was away from home for a bit too long, also the movie barely had any ships in it, & no detail about the ships themselves.
We don't steal credit chits, that is a stereotype perpetrated by the Volus due to their poor sensory optics in the suit models they wear.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 15, 2021 18:12:17 GMT
As a Quarian, I do dislike the toaster menace. Fleet, & Flotilla was mediocre, I never met a Turian without a stick up his exhaust pipe, the Quarian seemed like she was away from home for a bit too long, also the movie barely had any ships in it, & no detail about the ships themselves. We don't steal credit chits, that is a stereotype perpetrated by the Volus due to their poor sensory optics in the suit models they wear. -Kshhk -You suit rats are always like that. "We dont steal"...for your pilgrimage you would rob a volus blind. -Kshhk- You are all the same, devious creatures concealed in your suit, being deceitful ksshk. At least ksshk my optics change colour and reveal my true feelings ksshk always Kshhk I hope you lot stay in your place and stop coming here on the Citadel. Kshhk At least stay on the wards, or go to Omega, with the rest of the scum -kshhk.
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Post by AnDromedary on Mar 15, 2021 18:25:13 GMT
As a Quarian, I do dislike the toaster menace. Fleet, & Flotilla was mediocre, I never met a Turian without a stick up his exhaust pipe, the Quarian seemed like she was away from home for a bit too long, also the movie barely had any ships in it, & no detail about the ships themselves. We don't steal credit chits, that is a stereotype perpetrated by the Volus due to their poor sensory optics in the suit models they wear. -Kshhk -You suit rats are always like that. "We dont steal"...for your pilgrimage you would rob a volus blind. -Kshhk- You are all the same, devious creatures concealed in your suit, being deceitful ksshk. At least ksshk my optics change colour and reveal my true feelings ksshk always Kshhk I hope you lot stay in your place and stop coming here on the Citadel. Kshhk At least stay on the wards, or go to Omega, with the rest of the scum -kshhk. This one thinks you are all inferior to the cultural zenith that is the Hanar species. This is why the Enkindlers chose this one and his people. This one simply feels sorry for those who remain ignorant and will not accept the superiority of the Enkindlers and their chosen ones.
This one does not have a permit to preach in this public thread. Please do not rat out this one.
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Post by Phantom on Mar 15, 2021 20:04:06 GMT
-Kshhk -You suit rats are always like that. "We dont steal"...for your pilgrimage you would rob a volus blind. -Kshhk- You are all the same, devious creatures concealed in your suit, being deceitful ksshk. At least ksshk my optics change colour and reveal my true feelings ksshk always Kshhk I hope you lot stay in your place and stop coming here on the Citadel. Kshhk At least stay on the wards, or go to Omega, with the rest of the scum -kshhk. This one thinks you are all inferior to the cultural zenith that is the Hanar species. This is why the Enkindlers chose this one and his people. This one simply feels sorry for those who remain ignorant and will not accept the superiority of the Enkindlers and their chosen ones.
This one does not have a permit to preach in this public thread. Please do not rat out this one. Rats him out to the Near C-Sec Officer that is a turian.
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Post by Blast Processor on Mar 15, 2021 23:14:50 GMT
As a middle aged white guy I really hope that the poster child / default choice for the next one isn't a generic white guy with generic stubble and generic close cropped hair. How could you suggest such a thing!!!???
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Post by apollexander on Mar 16, 2021 3:15:17 GMT
Stereotypes: 1. Chinese play Kongfu. 2. Chinese cast mysterious evil spells. 3. Chinese are nerds. 4. Chinese eat everything. 5. Chinese are brainwashed. 6. Chinese have slant narrow eyes.
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To find the secrets of the universe: Think in terms of energy, frequency & VIBRATION -Nikola Tesla
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Shattered Steel, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
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Post by Atemporal Vanguardian-Debugger on Mar 16, 2021 4:48:56 GMT
My issues: ONE TWO 1) identify yourself as a member of a group, Leeroy Jenkins avoider -Whatever that group would be.
No romance.
2) explain a stereotype about your group that you don't want to see perpetuated Character that just out of plain stupidity runs in and gets eviscerated."Implying, leaning and or forcing a character to be in a relationship with the player character.
3) give examples of characters (from Bioware games or other media) that either reinforce this stereotype or avoid it Richard L. Jenkins, Jonn Whitson, Prazza and Grunt in ME3. Liara
4) suggest ways to make stereotypical characters less so
Remove the character or just have them actually have a brain and say, "I ain't doing that!"
Just give the option to say NO and have it actually carry actual weight in the game....or Kill off the character BEFORE ITS BEING FORCED ON YOU.
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Post by Psychevore on Mar 16, 2021 13:43:36 GMT
I think stereotyping becomes much less of a problem if they (developers, hollywood, whatever produces media) put in more people from a different background than white. But they usually don't, they put in a few token 'ethnic' characters AND make them stereotypical.
Because of course, there's, for example, Chinese people who practice kung fu. Having one of those in your games among a sea of Chinese characters is much, much less a problem then just putting in one Chinese dude and making him do kung fu, plus a funny accent.
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Post by Shinobu on Mar 16, 2021 17:57:15 GMT
I just don't want to be screwed over like I have been in three out of four games. Could you elaborate?
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Post by Shinobu on Mar 16, 2021 19:53:58 GMT
Middle aged white dude. Shinobu I think this is a very complicated matter. On the one hand as a person who's personal mantra is "be respectful" I strive to not make those sorts of assumptions about be people I interact with, on the other hand if every person representing every type of group put together such a wide-reaching list of things not to do you're not going to be able to write much of a story. This is much that's wrong with current Hollywood writing with their attempt to be all-inclusive and not be offensive...it's sterilized and frankly pretty boring. Let me put it out there in another way. I'm tired of older white men being portrayed as ego-maniacal, power-hungry zealots controlling the fates of nations and peoples - about as cliché as it gets, therefore we need to get rid of Martin Sheen's character model and replace with a minority or maybe have "the illusive woman" despite the fact that the illusive man is universally loved as an adversary among fans (I think). I know we've entered a period of hypersensitivity in western societies but if writers strip away everything and anything that might be offensive to one group or another you won't have anything to work with. I'm sure we could point to anything regarding any human character portrayed by Bioware as offensive. What I would prefer is for Bioware to tackle these issues straight on...have some companions who have issues and through interactions and challenging each others preconceptions develop a mutual respect. No one has ever learned to overcome these things by staying exclusively within their group. Thanks for engaging in this discussion, because middle aged white dudes get typecast too.
I think Bioware truly wants to be inclusive but needs a little help because they are in a profession that has been very homogeneous since the get-go. They tend to try so hard it sometimes comes off as too much. (For example, Hainly Abrams as she was written initially seemed like a book report about "what my writer learned about trans people," whereas matter-of-factly casting Jamie Clayton as Jien Garson probably did more real good in terms of being inclusive.) Part of the problem is that when the creators are mostly of one group they have blind spots and all the conscious thinking about it can't overcome their subconscious biases. This is why "woke" Hollywood comes off as so fake.
I'm not advocating for writing characters with the express purpose of being inoffensive. That's a sure way to please no one. Mass Effect could easily keep the same characters with the same dialogue and the same backstories but be nonstereotypical by: Taking all of the white characters and making them black or latinX (Illusive Man, Hackett, Miranda, Jack, Zaeed, Chakwas, Adams, Ken and Gabby, Kelly, Conrad Verner, etc)
Taking all of the black and latinX characters and making them Asian (Anderson, Jacob, Liam, Vega. Asian Jacob is still a jerk, but at least he's not a stereotype any more.)
Taking all of the Asian characters and making them white (Maya Brooks, Emily Wong, Traynor, Kasumi, Kai Leng, Khalisa Al-Jilani)
And if people think "It's stupid for white Kai Leng (let's call him... Chad Lake) to be dressed like that," the answer is: "Yes! It's stupid! It's also stupid for Asian Kai Leng to be dressed like that!"
And if people think: "Hey, that's unrealistic, there aren't enough white people in that cast!" The answer is: "You're right! Maybe the distribution of races should be more even."
And if people think Ken can't be black:
And if people are wondering why white Kasumi (let's call her... Cassie Goode) has a grandma who makes the best ramen, why the hell not? Mentioning ethnic food as lazy shorthand for "look how ethnic I am written" is completely unnecessary. My grandma didn't even make ramen, but her apple coffee cake was great. I don't expect writers to research that it is probably more realistic to have a Japanese grandma make kinpira rather than ramen. They should just stop mentioning Japanese food for the sake of making a character seem more Japanese. There's no reason Kasumi's grandma couldn't have made the best gnocchi, or just cookies, fer crying out loud.
Acceptance comes in stages. First the group is excluded. Next they are admitted but only as a few exemplary individuals. Then they are accepted as a normal part of the background. Finally they get to be the hero.
Bioware can't stay in phase 2 forever. Until they have a diverse writing team to help make authentic ethnic characters, it may just be easier for them to conceptualize/write all of the characters as white and then have the character artists create models that are diverse. Or if a white writer conceptualizes the character as black, the art department should make the character Asian instead (and vice versa) to avoid the pitfall of the writer's subconscious bias. Or if they realize, hey, this character is stereotypically X, keep the character, and just change their race/gender/sexuality to something else.
I'd be really psyched for an Asian Jack or an Asian Liam.
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Post by Shinobu on Mar 16, 2021 20:13:59 GMT
I think stereotyping becomes much less of a problem if they (developers, hollywood, whatever produces media) put in more people from a different background than white. But they usually don't, they put in a few token 'ethnic' characters AND make them stereotypical. Because of course, there's, for example, Chinese people who practice kung fu. Having one of those in your games among a sea of Chinese characters is much, much less a problem then just putting in one Chinese dude and making him do kung fu, plus a funny accent. I agree. If there are many people of (insert group here) included, we can see that they are different individuals. Then it becomes less important if some of them have stereotypical traits associated with that group because others obviously don't.
Except for the movie The Wolverine from 2013. A movie chock full of Asians that unfortunately didn't bother to update any of the stereotypes from the 1982 source material (not sure that it could be done anyway). I remember reading the comic back in the day and just being happy for the representation and the interracial romance, but now I feel it's pretty much garbage. I know how talented/influential Chris Claremont and Frank Miller are, but my God.
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Biotic Booty
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Origin: ferroboy
Prime Posts: 77
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Post by dmc1001 on Mar 16, 2021 20:22:33 GMT
I don't really notice stereotypes unless they're pointed out to me. They're just characters. Stereotypes don't come from nowhere. Dorian technically fit a stereotype but the main issue with him was that he was a drunk. At least that's how I viewed him. Made him difficult to romance, leading to the use of the Bi-Cullen Mod.
I don't really see a whole lot of stereotypes of significance. I guess if you look for it, you can find it.
Edit: I seriously never viewed Fai Dan the way you did. It never even occurred to me that he was a "corpo" or whatever. When did Maya become Asian? I thought she was Latino. This kind of proves the point about stereotypes since if she's Asian I didn't know it. I guess she could also be Indian but I wouldn't classify her as what might be seen as "Asian" even if that's how they are classified.
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Post by dmc1001 on Mar 16, 2021 20:33:04 GMT
I just don't want to be screwed over like I have been in three out of four games. Could you elaborate? Non-romanceable Cullen, Alistair and (initially) Kaidan? I think those are the types many gay men would want to romance. For some reason BioWare doesn't get that.
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helios969
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Post by helios969 on Mar 16, 2021 20:47:23 GMT
I'd be really psyched for an Asian Jack or an Asian Liam No one should be psyched for that...or any ethnic variation of that dingbat. But Asian Jack I can get behind. I've been thinking for a while Bioware needs new blood in their writing department...might be a good time to hire that diversity of backgrounds you were talking about. The first thing they should do is have each other write in the group they have the least exposure to for discussion amongst the team...good exercise. Also if they ever decide to remake the OT they should consider an Illusive Woman.
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Post by sageoflife on Mar 16, 2021 21:30:52 GMT
I just don't want to be screwed over like I have been in three out of four games. Could you elaborate? First two games included no options for gay men at all, and the fourth game tried to get away with blatantly giving gay men fewer options than everyone else.
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