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Post by Shinobu on Mar 20, 2021 3:49:16 GMT
First two games included no options for gay men at all, and the fourth game tried to get away with blatantly giving gay men fewer options than everyone else. We'll since this thread is specifically about stereotypes would you be okay with the worst examples of gay stereotyping if you got equal representation? Or perhaps Bioware should just make romanceable characters playersexual to satisfy equality (the approach I favor). I hope no one has to make that choice these days. That was the case in the 80's when one either wasn't represented or was represented as some eye-roll-inducing caricature. Bioware is doing better than that already (40 years later!); they just need to go a little further.
I'm coming almost full circle on the player-sexual characters, although maybe we should discuss this in a different thread. I'm still not for strictly player-sexual characters (as in characters who don't romance a certain type of person but make an exception for the player ONLY), but I'd support having a future galaxy where most people are pan, but some are not.
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Post by Shinobu on Mar 20, 2021 3:59:33 GMT
No one should be psyched for that...or any ethnic variation of that dingbat. But Asian Jack I can get behind. I've been thinking for a while Bioware needs new blood in their writing department...might be a good time to hire that diversity of backgrounds you were talking about. The first thing they should do is have each other write in the group they have the least exposure to for discussion amongst the team...good exercise. Also if they ever decide to remake the OT they should consider an Illusive Woman. Liam is such a weird character. An all-around idiot for almost the entire game, but his romance is one of the best, if not, the best romance Bioware has ever done. It all feels so natural, while most video game romances feel kinda forced. Liam drives me a bit nuts, but I think he's a good character. I did feel a little uncomfortable with his "I need something" scene -- it felt like he was pressuring Ryder into a pity-f**k. The rest of his romance was nice, though. I think Liam was written as the "anti-Jacob" (the way Patrick O'Brien wrote Aubrey as the "anti-Hornblower" and I suspect Ryder was written as the "anti-Shepard"), so it makes me sad when I see people say he's the same as Jacob. He's pretty much the exact opposite of Jacob.
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Post by Shinobu on Mar 20, 2021 4:22:39 GMT
Despite being one of the most highly populated groups of people in the world, my kind is barely ever represented in gaming period. If they are, they are usually extremely minor side characters that barely matter. Mass Effect has three characters of my race which seems like a lot. But they are all minor side character/quests, which I am sure few if any remember. If you are wondering, I'm Indian but I live in the US. Most Indians in games will usually have an accent, has a steretypical job, seem gentle/weak, are generally harmless, or don't matter to the plot. I can't think of any badass Indian characters except Dhar from Indivisible. But the story treats him like a buffoon despite being the only one who spoke sense on top being the only one with development. I'm unsure if Traynor is one, but if she is, she conforms to some of the aforementioned tropes. I have seen games uses Indian mythos and culture, but not the people much. I usually am not a strong enforcer on diversity, but this is something I have noticed. What is your opinion of Samesh Bhatia in ME1? I actually liked his side quest a lot even though it had no in-game consequences because it made me think about what my Shepard would do. I thought there should be a war asset in ME3 if the Alliance kept his wife's body.
I think Traynor and Maya Brooks are South Asian-British, but I can't remember any other characters.
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Post by dmc1001 on Mar 20, 2021 4:56:14 GMT
I don't really notice stereotypes unless they're pointed out to me. They're just characters. Stereotypes don't come from nowhere. Dorian technically fit a stereotype but the main issue with him was that he was a drunk. At least that's how I viewed him. Made him difficult to romance, leading to the use of the Bi-Cullen Mod. I don't really see a whole lot of stereotypes of significance. I guess if you look for it, you can find it. Edit: I seriously never viewed Fai Dan the way you did. It never even occurred to me that he was a "corpo" or whatever. When did Maya become Asian? I thought she was Latino. This kind of proves the point about stereotypes since if she's Asian I didn't know it. I guess she could also be Indian but I wouldn't classify her as what might be seen as "Asian" even if that's how they are classified. Dorian IMO is not stereotypical for an Asian man. I can't say whether he is stereotypical for a gay man.
Fai Dan isn't the corpo. He's the leader of Zhu's Hope and a good example of a regular, non-stereotypical Asian. Ethan Jeong is the corpo. He's a coward who wants to protect the corporation's interests and is wiling to "liquidate" the colony to protect Exo-geni's secrets.
Asia covers a lot of territory including East Asia (e.g., China, Japan, Korea, Taiwan), North Asia (parts of Siberia), West Asia (including but not limited to Iran, Iraq, Qatar, Turkey, Yemen, UAE), Central Asia (including Afghanistan, Uzbekistan, etc.), South Asia (incl. India, Pakistan, Nepal) and Southeast Asia (incl. the Philippines, Vietnam, Indonesia, Thailand, Malaysia). Most people think of East Asia and maybe Southeast Asia when they hear "Asian."
I think of Maya Brooks and Traynor as South Asian and Dorian as West Asian.
I was using Dorian as an example of a stereotype - he could be viewed as a stereotypical gay man. As for the other, I mixed Fai Dan with Ethan Jeong. Either way, I didn't look at it in the "company man" way until you pointed it out. Which is the problem. These things are only an issue when someone points them out. I am aware of the extent of "Asian" but what's considered a stereotype differs greatly across those regions. So you can't say "stereotypical Asian" when what the means varies between Japan and India.
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Post by dmc1001 on Mar 20, 2021 4:57:46 GMT
Non-romanceable Cullen, Alistair and (initially) Kaidan? I think those are the types many gay men would want to romance. For some reason BioWare doesn't get that. Everyone deserves a knight in shining armor. Alistair would have been a great same-sex romance. IIRC Cullen was supposed to be bisexual? No. There's a mod for that. It's imperfect, though, since the male Inquisitor (human, at least) is taller than Cullen and the kissing looks bizarre.
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Post by Shinobu on Mar 20, 2021 4:57:54 GMT
I mostly agree with this except the please stop with part. I think the awkward thing is lame, its like a poorly written bendis spiderman, or an attempt at the gilmore girls. But it has its fan group. As long as I have options past that, its fine. I don't like it when they slide the protagonist into that, as I can't escape it then. Of course the tropes that I don't like (anymore) others do. I myself DO like DA2's Merrill. I just find that archetype to be overused, especially in RPGs. But to be fair, they're all overused. Just boils down to which of them annoy you the most, lol. So there's little merit in telling BioWare that and it wasn't the OPs question either, I'm aware. As for a more direct reply to the OP, I oddly find the current representation of women (which I guess is "my group") to be less and less representative. Because the level of overcompensation has become ridiculous. So I guess I wish gaming would cater LESS to the female empowerment nonsense at the expanse of credibility. But that's just me. The great thing about Shepard as a product of less politically correct times is that femShep fits the postergirl criteria for a strong kickass woman in 2021. But Shepard wasn't designed as that specifically in the early 2000s. Shepard was designed to be person with a charismatic personality and immense strength of character regardless of sex. Shepard's sex DOESN'T matter. Imo it doesn't change a thing. It changes the romance options. And one sex might be more relatable to the player than the other based on very basic criteria of reference. What nuance the player attributes to male or female Shepard is up to them. The only reason I MUCH prefer femShep is the voice actress but that has nothing to do with the character's writing. And yet, do I find femShep particularly relatable as a woman specifically? Not really. There is no way I would ever find myself choosing that career. Shepard and I have very little in common. There is nothing representative about femShep to me, and that's OKAY. Shepard is an inspiring character. A Jesus type of extraordinary person. I love that about Shepard. I don't need the hero to have relatable Average Joe personal problems, just so I can identify with them. Nor do I need the crew to have boring normal problems so I can identify with them. Tali spends her entire life in a suit and THAT is a problem that's not relatable but it's INTERESTING. Sorry for going off on a tangent... One of the things that made Shepard so groundbreaking was really an accident. Although Shepard was initially intended to be a female character, that idea was scrapped in favor of male Shepard. Because Bioware wanted the option for players to be female, they just took all of the same lines that were written for BroShep and had Jen Hale deliver them too. And that was perfect. They didn't waste money and time on writing different lines. And this to me is great equal representation. Shepard (male or female) is a badass and no one questions it. She doesn't have to prove she's "as good as a man," which I think is what is wrong with all the "girl power" fakeness of Captain Marvel that plays "I'm just a girl" during a fight scene.
I watched a video that had a snippet of an interview with Patty Jenkins, the director of Wonder Woman. In it, she said: "I want to tell a story about a woman; not a story about being a woman." Putting aside the dumpster fire of WW1984, I can really get behind this sentiment. Give me characters that do great things and don't have them tell me about their grandma's ethnic food and how they were oppressed in the past. JUST ASSUME THEY BELONG THERE AND DON'T HAVE TO EXPLAIN SHIT TO ANYONE. And don't have situations where they are being belittled or questioned for who they are.
In a nutshell, the Femshep treatment is what I want for every character. Until such time as ethnic, racial, religious, and sexuality differences can be discussed in a nuanced way by a diverse writing team, I'd rather the writers just wrote every character as a straight white male and then randomly changed the race, gender and sexual orientation to something else without giving any extra dialogue to explain or ethnify the character.
This is requires the least amount of effort by the writers.
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Post by helios969 on Mar 20, 2021 7:32:03 GMT
JUST ASSUME THEY BELONG THERE AND DON'T HAVE TO EXPLAIN SHIT TO ANYONE Now that's a sentiment I am totally behind. Liam still sucks though.
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Post by helios969 on Mar 20, 2021 7:40:14 GMT
Dorian would be that and, honestly, he's not so bad. Man, Dorian is one of Bioware's best written characters. Dude's got the three S's - snark, swagger, and style.
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Post by obbie1984 on Mar 20, 2021 21:22:52 GMT
Despite being one of the most highly populated groups of people in the world, my kind is barely ever represented in gaming period. If they are, they are usually extremely minor side characters that barely matter. Mass Effect has three characters of my race which seems like a lot. But they are all minor side character/quests, which I am sure few if any remember. If you are wondering, I'm Indian but I live in the US. Most Indians in games will usually have an accent, has a steretypical job, seem gentle/weak, are generally harmless, or don't matter to the plot. I can't think of any badass Indian characters except Dhar from Indivisible. But the story treats him like a buffoon despite being the only one who spoke sense on top being the only one with development. I'm unsure if Traynor is one, but if she is, she conforms to some of the aforementioned tropes. I have seen games uses Indian mythos and culture, but not the people much. I usually am not a strong enforcer on diversity, but this is something I have noticed. What is your opinion of Samesh Bhatia in ME1? I actually liked his side quest a lot even though it had no in-game consequences because it made me think about what my Shepard would do. I thought there should be a war asset in ME3 if the Alliance kept his wife's body.
I think Traynor and Maya Brooks are South Asian-British, but I can't remember any other characters.
The quest itself was fine and Bhatia came off as a sympathetic man. However, he still had some of the stereotypes like being accented. His wife being an Indian soldier is actually pretty unique as Indian women are not encouraged to be soldiers at all. However, you don't see her and Ashley only mentions her in passing. Again, they are all minor side characters that do not matter even a tiny bit toward the overall narrative as you said. Fair enough on those two. I thought Traynor was a Christian Indian who was born in the UK. I always though Maya was black though.
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Post by duskwanderer on Mar 20, 2021 21:24:45 GMT
Here's one:
I want men and women to be treated differently. I want different dialogue every so often.
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Post by wright1978 on Mar 21, 2021 20:21:42 GMT
Middle aged white dude. Shinobu I think this is a very complicated matter. On the one hand as a person who's personal mantra is "be respectful" I strive to not make those sorts of assumptions about be people I interact with, on the other hand if every person representing every type of group put together such a wide-reaching list of things not to do you're not going to be able to write much of a story. This is much that's wrong with current Hollywood writing with their attempt to be all-inclusive and not be offensive...it's sterilized and frankly pretty boring. Let me put it out there in another way. I'm tired of older white men being portrayed as ego-maniacal, power-hungry zealots controlling the fates of nations and peoples - about as cliché as it gets, therefore we need to get rid of Martin Sheen's character model and replace with a minority or maybe have "the illusive woman" despite the fact that the illusive man is universally loved as an adversary among fans (I think). I know we've entered a period of hypersensitivity in western societies but if writers strip away everything and anything that might be offensive to one group or another you won't have anything to work with. I'm sure we could point to anything regarding any human character portrayed by Bioware as offensive. What I would prefer is for Bioware to tackle these issues straight on...have some companions who have issues and through interactions and challenging each others preconceptions develop a mutual respect. No one has ever learned to overcome these things by staying exclusively within their group. Yeah i’m Not a big fan of sanitized hypersensitivity. I think stereotypes are only really a problem if a certain stereotype is all you reach for.
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Post by Shinobu on Mar 22, 2021 3:25:16 GMT
Personally, I don’t really care all that much about stereotypes. If the game wants to have some hispanic guy jacking sky cars, whatever. If he’s a character that somehow adds to the game by being amusing and believable, I’ll take it lol. I just want these characters to feel fleshed out and have engaging dialogue. If they can at least get that far, then I guess I can turn my attention to the smaller details. I strongly agree here. But I'm personally more bothered by Bioware's need to insert what could be called 'token characters'. Krem in DAI was treated as a 'token character'. He was just there so EA/Bioware could say how progressive they are. That to me is far worse than what many believe to be a Stereotype character. Give me good dialogue and character progression and I'm a happy player. PS:I hope this makes sense. If not I apologise. I've had a couple of Rums. How would you change Krem to make him more interesting?
It seems the best way to make a character not a token character is to have them be a member of the squad. Because the types of personal conversations that lead to someone saying that they are trans wouldn't happen with a stranger, but with a friend. (e.g., Hainly Abrams bringing up her deadname of Stefan to a Ryder who is just making small talk is weird.) So it's unlikely to come up at all unless someone from their past outs them (which would not be a great thing to include in a game) or they have some sort of close relationship with the player character.
I'm not trans, so my ideas may not be relevant, but I was thinking that it would be cool to have a character in Mass Effect whose identity as a trans person doesn't come up at all unless the PC is initiating a romance with them. For example, if a FemShep romancing Garrus in ME2 has a conversation with him where he tells her that he's trans. This would only come up after a whole game where it isn't mentioned because that piece of information isn't relevant, and wouldn't come up at all in a BroShep playthrough since Garrus isn't a romance option for male Shepard. (I'm not advocating for retconning him in the LE, just using Garrus as a hypothetical case since most of us would agree that he's one of those well-written characters we all want.)
It would also be interesting if a player character could have a line in a romance dialogue where they reveal that they are trans, and this is the only time that it comes up in the game, because in every other respect it is a non-issue. Maybe someone in the community can tell me if this is a good or bad idea.
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Post by midnightwolf on Mar 22, 2021 4:33:24 GMT
I strongly agree here. But I'm personally more bothered by Bioware's need to insert what could be called 'token characters'. Krem in DAI was treated as a 'token character'. He was just there so EA/Bioware could say how progressive they are. That to me is far worse than what many believe to be a Stereotype character. Give me good dialogue and character progression and I'm a happy player. PS:I hope this makes sense. If not I apologise. I've had a couple of Rums. How would you change Krem to make him more interesting?
It seems the best way to make a character not a token character is to have them be a member of the squad. Because the types of personal conversations that lead to someone saying that they are trans wouldn't happen with a stranger, but with a friend. (e.g., Hainly Abrams bringing up her deadname of Stefan to a Ryder who is just making small talk is weird.) So it's unlikely to come up at all unless someone from their past outs them (which would not be a great thing to include in a game) or they have some sort of close relationship with the player character.
I'm not trans, so my ideas may not be relevant, but I was thinking that it would be cool to have a character in Mass Effect whose identity as a trans person doesn't come up at all unless the PC is initiating a romance with them. For example, if a FemShep romancing Garrus in ME2 has a conversation with him where he tells her that he's trans. This would only come up after a whole game where it isn't mentioned because that piece of information isn't relevant, and wouldn't come up at all in a BroShep playthrough since Garrus isn't a romance option for male Shepard.
It would also be interesting if a player character could have a line in a romance dialogue where they reveal that they are trans, and this is the only time that it comes up in the game, because in every other respect it is a non-issue. Maybe someone in the community can tell me if this is a good or bad idea.
I wouldn't change Krem per say. But I would give a little more character exposition via other means.
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Post by Shinobu on Mar 22, 2021 5:40:32 GMT
I figured I'd jump in. I'm a Black man in their lower 30's from the U.S. I think avoiding stereotypes is a tricky situation to put yourself in as a writer, especially in settings where there's a sense of modern-reality underlining much of the setting. It's easier to break out of stereotypes in a high-fantasy setting since you can build the history of the universe in anyway you want. Not so much when part of your games story (albeit underplayed) is rooted in real-world reality to some degree. I do want well told characters, regardless of their background, but (and this is getting personal here) sometimes it does get under my skin when I see other groups of individuals who don't fall under "White" or "Asian" be given the side eye treatment by - admittedly - vocal minorities. I remember years ago (2003/2004) when info was coming out about GTA: San Andreas, and I got excited since it featured a Black protagonist. Sure, said character fell into the stereotype of being a young Black man in a gang, but seeing someone who looked like me was pretty cool. I was also a frequent user of GameFAQ's at the time, and I stumbled across many a posts complaining about the fact that the main character was Black. Again, it's only a minority of people, but it sucked that there were those who thought having someone non-White or non-Asian being the main protagonist was such a big deal. I've played tons of games where the protagonist was White (Joel from TLOU is one of my favorite characters), but I never took the time to mull over the idea of, "Did the writers make this person White because of an agenda?". I wish more people would have that mindset whenever characters don't fit their "ideal" of whom someone (of a particular group) should be like. It'd also be nice if more people were just honest and were willing to say that I don't think X person/group fits thematically with the game. Short of it all, I don't care who you put in the game. Just make sure they're designed in a manner that makes them personable, which I would think most of us want anyway. (sorry for the mini-rant) I hope that there will be more Black game protagonists now that companies are finally aware that heroes like Miles Morales can make them money. Unfortunately, I think there will still be gamers who complain that game companies are forgetting their "core 18-25 year old hetero while male audience" every time a non-white or non-male protagonist is featured on the box, but that may be be waning as gamers become older and more diverse. I remember 9 years ago when having even one FemShep trailer was controversial. In 2019 the Anthem trailers featured the female protagonist and no one even noticed. There's no reason the next Mass Effect game couldn't have a Black protagonist on the cover. If anything, it's weird that the lore of Mass Effect established that humans are mostly mixed race by 2185 and yet the cover art Shepards and Ryders don't look it at all.
Are you comfortable sharing your thoughts on the Black characters in DA and ME?
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Post by Shinobu on Mar 22, 2021 6:14:13 GMT
Dorian IMO is not stereotypical for an Asian man. I can't say whether he is stereotypical for a gay man.
Fai Dan isn't the corpo. He's the leader of Zhu's Hope and a good example of a regular, non-stereotypical Asian. Ethan Jeong is the corpo. He's a coward who wants to protect the corporation's interests and is wiling to "liquidate" the colony to protect Exo-geni's secrets.
Asia covers a lot of territory including East Asia (e.g., China, Japan, Korea, Taiwan), North Asia (parts of Siberia), West Asia (including but not limited to Iran, Iraq, Qatar, Turkey, Yemen, UAE), Central Asia (including Afghanistan, Uzbekistan, etc.), South Asia (incl. India, Pakistan, Nepal) and Southeast Asia (incl. the Philippines, Vietnam, Indonesia, Thailand, Malaysia). Most people think of East Asia and maybe Southeast Asia when they hear "Asian."
I think of Maya Brooks and Traynor as South Asian and Dorian as West Asian.
I was using Dorian as an example of a stereotype - he could be viewed as a stereotypical gay man. As for the other, I mixed Fai Dan with Ethan Jeong. Either way, I didn't look at it in the "company man" way until you pointed it out. Which is the problem. These things are only an issue when someone points them out. I am aware of the extent of "Asian" but what's considered a stereotype differs greatly across those regions. So you can't say "stereotypical Asian" when what the means varies between Japan and India. What do you think makes Dorian stereotypical and how could he be changed to make him less so? I love Dorian; he is one of the only characters in DAI that moves me to tears because his voice actor is so good. His banters with Cole are great. If you don't mind me asking, do you have an opinion on Dorian's relationship with Bull?
I'm not sure what you mean by "these things are only an issue when someone points them out." Do you mean they aren't a real issue or that people should have them pointed out?
Yeah, strictly speaking I can only really speak for myself as a Japanese-American, because things that bother me may not even bother Japanese people or vice versa. However, I think the West does tend to have similar stereotypes for East Asians and South Asians (e.g., accented, studious, weak, and exotic, with controlling mothers). Central Asians tend to fall under the "terrorist" stereotype instead.
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Post by Shinobu on Mar 22, 2021 6:24:04 GMT
Everyone deserves a knight in shining armor. Alistair would have been a great same-sex romance. IIRC Cullen was supposed to be bisexual? No. There's a mod for that. It's imperfect, though, since the male Inquisitor (human, at least) is taller than Cullen and the kissing looks bizarre. According to Annatar there are tweets from a Bioware dev saying that Cullen was going to be bisexual but they ran out of time to implement it, so it was cut. However, there are some remnants left in the game files such as Dorian's jealousy dialogue. I'm sorry, I can't find the Tweets they're referencing, but here's the dialogue. Not sure if this was incorporated into the mod.
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Grateful to have this forum. Also, a giant killjoy.
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Post by Shinobu on Mar 22, 2021 6:35:52 GMT
Here's one: I want men and women to be treated differently. I want different dialogue every so often. I didn't love Harkin's sexual harassment in ME1 or the Batarian recuiter's: "Well, aren't you sweet? You're in the wrong place, honey; strippers quarters are that way" during Archangel's recruitment mission. However "Shepard is my Battlemaster; she has no equal" was pretty awesome.
Can you give examples of the types of dialogue you would like?
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wright1978
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Post by wright1978 on Mar 22, 2021 12:39:41 GMT
Here's one: I want men and women to be treated differently. I want different dialogue every so often. I didn't love Harkin's sexual harassment in ME1 or the Batarian recuiter's: "Well, aren't you sweet? You're in the wrong place, honey; strippers quarters are that way" during Archangel's recruitment mission. However "Shepard is my Battlemaster; she has no equal" was pretty awesome.
Can you give examples of the types of dialogue you would like?
Well i liked the Batarian recruiter's dialogue and the renegade interrupt. Wouldn't want that blandified.
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Finished Dissertation long ago lol. Now happily employed :D
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Post by biggydx on Mar 22, 2021 14:26:43 GMT
I figured I'd jump in. I'm a Black man in their lower 30's from the U.S. I think avoiding stereotypes is a tricky situation to put yourself in as a writer, especially in settings where there's a sense of modern-reality underlining much of the setting. It's easier to break out of stereotypes in a high-fantasy setting since you can build the history of the universe in anyway you want. Not so much when part of your games story (albeit underplayed) is rooted in real-world reality to some degree. I do want well told characters, regardless of their background, but (and this is getting personal here) sometimes it does get under my skin when I see other groups of individuals who don't fall under "White" or "Asian" be given the side eye treatment by - admittedly - vocal minorities. I remember years ago (2003/2004) when info was coming out about GTA: San Andreas, and I got excited since it featured a Black protagonist. Sure, said character fell into the stereotype of being a young Black man in a gang, but seeing someone who looked like me was pretty cool. I was also a frequent user of GameFAQ's at the time, and I stumbled across many a posts complaining about the fact that the main character was Black. Again, it's only a minority of people, but it sucked that there were those who thought having someone non-White or non-Asian being the main protagonist was such a big deal. I've played tons of games where the protagonist was White (Joel from TLOU is one of my favorite characters), but I never took the time to mull over the idea of, "Did the writers make this person White because of an agenda?". I wish more people would have that mindset whenever characters don't fit their "ideal" of whom someone (of a particular group) should be like. It'd also be nice if more people were just honest and were willing to say that I don't think X person/group fits thematically with the game. Short of it all, I don't care who you put in the game. Just make sure they're designed in a manner that makes them personable, which I would think most of us want anyway. (sorry for the mini-rant) I hope that there will be more Black game protagonists now that companies are finally aware that heroes like Miles Morales can make them money. Unfortunately, I think there will still be gamers who complain that game companies are forgetting their "core 18-25 year old hetero while male audience" every time a non-white or non-male protagonist is featured on the box, but that may be be waning as gamers become older and more diverse. I remember 9 years ago when having even one FemShep trailer was controversial. In 2019 the Anthem trailers featured the female protagonist and no one even noticed. There's no reason the next Mass Effect game couldn't have a Black protagonist on the cover. If anything, it's weird that the lore of Mass Effect established that humans are mostly mixed race by 2185 and yet the cover art Shepards and Ryders don't look it at all.
Are you comfortable sharing your thoughts on the Black characters in DA and ME?
Sure, but let me preface this by saying that I'm not surprised the target demo for most game companies is either the White or Asian market. I dont have the statistics, but it wouldn't surprise me in the least if they made up the majority of players across multiple platforms. A majority of developers also fill into these demographics, so it makes sense they would (more often than not) design characters that look like them. That's not an issue, and I imagine that's how most players design their characters when they have an opportunity (with things like character creators). My main criticism has more to do with the unnecessary blowback non-traditional protagonists sometimes get. As for my experience with BioWare and how they've handled Black characters in ME and DA, here's my two cents. I specifically say "Two cents" because I honestly cant remember all the Black (mixed Black) characters across both series; especially Dragon Age. Mass Effect:- Captain Anderson is probably the more standout character in my mind, and his personality is helped out alot with Keith David voice acting him. He commands an authority fitting of his rank, and his character IMO is pretty personable and believable. Overall, I liked his character. I never had the chance to read up on comics that detail his background, so I cant speak on that front. - Jacob is cringe man lol. Hes a younger guy, so his more laid back verbiage and what not doesnt bother me. Then again, I also didnt find him that impressive or memorable either. I wasnt as bothered by his loyalty mission as some others would believe. The whole "Black Man with Daddy Issues" trope honestly wasnt that big of a deal, or even a deal, for me honestly. Theres nothing to suggest that Ronald Taylor wasnt a part of Jacob's life growing up. Also, as a companion, Jacob isn't the only character with "Child/Parent Issues". Miranda goes through an ordeal with her father. Samara and her daughters as well. The part I wasnt warm to the most was how cringeworthy his romance dialogue was and the fact that he leaves you in ME3 to hook up with some other woman, and then gets said woman pregnant. It just didnt make much sense to me given that there was a 6 month gap between Arrival and ME3. Dude apparently just gave up on you like that. That was just poor handling on BioWares part, and I feel like it was a decision made to reduce the amount of time needed to flesh out ME2 characters in ME3; to make your interactions with them feel meaningful. - Brooks looks to be mixed race, but I honestly dont know much about her background. I know the Foundation comics flesh her character out some, but I've never had the opportunity to read any of BioWares external media. My only recollection of her is shooting her in the back after she gets out of her restraints; which I thought was comical. Other than than, I dont really remember much about her. Dragon Age:- Can I count Isabella to some degree? Either way, I like her character. Theres a wit to her, and some of her dialogue is hilarious ("Apostate Prostitutes?... Apostitutes. Hah!"). I also liked playing her character in Inquisition multiplayer. Her Broadside skill was not to be fucked with. - Vivienne was a bitch, and I think I kinda liked her that way. You know shes not to be fucked with. The highlights of her character, in my eyes, was the banter between her, Sarah, and Blackwall. Hilariously good. From what I remember, her Knight Enchanter class was really good for tanking at the time, up until Trespasser changed Spirit Blade, so I made sure she was in my party during harder fights. I guess my real issue with her was that there wasnt a whole lot of going into her background. You somewhat get a glimpse of it through seeing her with Duke Bastien, but outside of that it's all about Court of Orleis and The Game. I wish more went into her personal quest tbh. Side note, I'd be curious to see what would happen if BioWare made her the cannon Divine. Overall, I think BioWare has done fine with them. Not bad, but not phenomenal either. My biggest issue with how they do Black characters is honestly with the hair customization options (lol). But then again, that's a problem in a lot of character creators; from my own perspective.
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Post by jrpN7 on Mar 22, 2021 17:50:49 GMT
1) identify yourself as a member of a group: G in LGBTQ+ 2) explain a stereotype about your group that you don't want to see perpetuated: Femininity or just being side-lined. 3) give examples of characters (from Bioware games or other media) that either reinforce this stereotype or avoid it: Well, we got nothing in ME1 and ME2. Finally got Kaidan ME3. Cortez was nice too, but his role was limited. MEA gave us Reyes, but he was more of a fling. Brodie, not a squaddie and also a limited role. So far, no masculine aliens. Dorian, was a gay stereotype in my eyes. Gay this, gay that. Cyberpunk gave us the worst romance out of them all: a stereotypical quasi-masculine self-absorbed dull potato. His story was not emotional and had zero bonding moments unlike the other romances. 4) suggest ways to make stereotypical characters less so: Give us multiple masculine romance options from quality characters. Simple request.
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Post by Giant Ambush Beetle on Mar 22, 2021 17:54:07 GMT
In general, Bioware tries to be sensitive to stereotypes and avoid them
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Post by pessimistpanda on Mar 23, 2021 1:35:35 GMT
I don't like that the gay men in their games always have plotlines centred around "gay issues" like daddy being mean to them or being "unable" to procreate.
It's not just stereotypical, but also incredibly lazy and unimaginative. There's absolutely no reason why a fantasy world or the far-flung future should be beholden to modern (really very outdated) mores/values in current society and still needing to discuss them. It betrays a real lack of imagination on the part of the writing team, if you ask me.
I don't much care if the gay guys are "feminine" or "promiscuous" however one defines those. Being feminine or promiscuous doesn't and shouldn't bar you from being a badass space hero, but I'm sick of gay male characters being denied proper personalities and arcs. This isn't an issue for the straight or bisexual characters or even the lesbians. They would never, ever, EVER give Sera or Suvi plots that centre around having a "duty" to bear children.
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Post by helios969 on Mar 23, 2021 7:46:38 GMT
I don't much care if the gay guys are "feminine" or "promiscuous" however one defines those. Being feminine or promiscuous doesn't and shouldn't bar you from being a badass space hero, but I'm sick of gay male characters being denied proper personalities and arcs. This isn't an issue for the straight or bisexual characters or even the lesbians. They would never, ever, EVER give Sera or Suvi plots that centre around having a "duty" to bear children. So throw us some ideas for interesting "gay" characters. What are some non-stereotypical conflicts that gays experience that non-gays might find interesting to explore? I personally found Sera and Dorian awesome and interesting to interact with...Suvi was dull. Steve and Traynor were okay (though the toothbrush bit was pretty hilarious). Kaidan was boring as hell. Speaking of "duty" to bear children I think a female Krogan that leaves her clan for that reason yet struggles with her decision would be an interesting character to explore...society expectations vs. personal goals or motivation. That would give you internal conflict and external conflict with other Krogan encounters.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Mar 23, 2021 10:00:07 GMT
I don't much care if the gay guys are "feminine" or "promiscuous" however one defines those. Being feminine or promiscuous doesn't and shouldn't bar you from being a badass space hero, but I'm sick of gay male characters being denied proper personalities and arcs. This isn't an issue for the straight or bisexual characters or even the lesbians. They would never, ever, EVER give Sera or Suvi plots that centre around having a "duty" to bear children. So throw us some ideas for interesting "gay" characters. What are some non-stereotypical conflicts that gays experience that non-gays might find interesting to explore? I personally found Sera and Dorian awesome and interesting to interact with...Suvi was dull. Steve and Traynor were okay (though the toothbrush bit was pretty hilarious). Kaidan was boring as hell. Speaking of "duty" to bear children I think a female Krogan that leaves her clan for that reason yet struggles with her decision would be an interesting character to explore...society expectations vs. personal goals or motivation. That would give you internal conflict and external conflict with other Krogan encounters. Just the same stories they give the other characters, something that doesn't have anything at all to do with being gay. Liam gets a fun, comical adventure mission, as does Reyes. Neither of them are remotely concerned with making babies even though they both presumably have functioning penises. I don't care what they do with the Krogans, cause I'm not a Krogan. The thread is about real-life minorities.
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helios969
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Post by helios969 on Mar 23, 2021 19:58:46 GMT
I don't care what they do with the Krogans, cause I'm not a Krogan. The thread is about real-life minorities. Just for that only gay Krogan romances for ME next.
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