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Post by duskwanderer on Mar 24, 2021 0:08:02 GMT
Here's one: I want men and women to be treated differently. I want different dialogue every so often. I didn't love Harkin's sexual harassment in ME1 or the Batarian recuiter's: "Well, aren't you sweet? You're in the wrong place, honey; strippers quarters are that way" during Archangel's recruitment mission. However "Shepard is my Battlemaster; she has no equal" was pretty awesome.
Can you give examples of the types of dialogue you would like?
Anything. Flirtation. Dismissiveness. I don't care who the target is, as long as I can feel however I want. Let's say you enter an dancing bar looking to sneak in. The jackass at the door tells a woman she should shake her ass on the stage, and tells a man he should drop 2000 credits for the hope he might be touched briefly. Then let me shoot the asshole in the head.
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Post by dmc1001 on Mar 24, 2021 1:47:25 GMT
No. There's a mod for that. It's imperfect, though, since the male Inquisitor (human, at least) is taller than Cullen and the kissing looks bizarre. According to Annatar there are tweets from a Bioware dev saying that Cullen was going to be bisexual but they ran out of time to implement it, so it was cut. However, there are some remnants left in the game files such as Dorian's jealousy dialogue. I'm sorry, I can't find the Tweets they're referencing, but here's the dialogue. Not sure if this was incorporated into the mod.
Interesting. Dorian has more morals than the Inquisitor.
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Post by dmc1001 on Mar 24, 2021 1:49:25 GMT
Dorian would be that and, honestly, he's not so bad. Man, Dorian is one of Bioware's best written characters. Dude's got the three S's - snark, swagger, and style. I get that but he is a stereotype. Personally, I'd prefer Cullen because of the romance. Dorian is too much of a drunk for my tastes. Or at least that's how he seems to be to me. I wouldn't date someone like that.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 1, 2021 19:50:52 GMT
What is your opinion of Samesh Bhatia in ME1? I actually liked his side quest a lot even though it had no in-game consequences because it made me think about what my Shepard would do. I thought there should be a war asset in ME3 if the Alliance kept his wife's body.
I think Traynor and Maya Brooks are South Asian-British, but I can't remember any other characters.
The quest itself was fine and Bhatia came off as a sympathetic man. However, he still had some of the stereotypes like being accented. His wife being an Indian soldier is actually pretty unique as Indian women are not encouraged to be soldiers at all. However, you don't see her and Ashley only mentions her in passing. Again, they are all minor side characters that do not matter even a tiny bit toward the overall narrative as you said. Re: the bolded - is this the future we want? Homogenized, synthesized, one world state as human freight? I grew up earlier than many of you, me and helios are closer in age. We celebrated multiculturalism... is this dead now? What a shame.
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Post by ahglock on Apr 1, 2021 21:35:09 GMT
The quest itself was fine and Bhatia came off as a sympathetic man. However, he still had some of the stereotypes like being accented. His wife being an Indian soldier is actually pretty unique as Indian women are not encouraged to be soldiers at all. However, you don't see her and Ashley only mentions her in passing. Again, they are all minor side characters that do not matter even a tiny bit toward the overall narrative as you said. Re: the bolded - is this the future we want? Homogenized, synthesized, one world state as human freight? I grew up earlier than many of you, me and helios are closer in age. We celebrated multiculturalism... is this dead now? What a shame. I think people just like outrage. If everyone was samified they'd cry whitewashing.
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Post by Shinobu on Apr 2, 2021 1:17:50 GMT
I didn't love Harkin's sexual harassment in ME1 or the Batarian recuiter's: "Well, aren't you sweet? You're in the wrong place, honey; strippers quarters are that way" during Archangel's recruitment mission. However "Shepard is my Battlemaster; she has no equal" was pretty awesome.
Can you give examples of the types of dialogue you would like?
Anything. Flirtation. Dismissiveness. I don't care who the target is, as long as I can feel however I want. Let's say you enter an dancing bar looking to sneak in. The jackass at the door tells a woman she should shake her ass on the stage, and tells a man he should drop 2000 credits for the hope he might be touched briefly. Then let me shoot the asshole in the head. Since you want more of this and I want less, maybe they should keep the amount the same.
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Post by Shinobu on Apr 2, 2021 1:22:01 GMT
In general, Bioware tries to be sensitive to stereotypes and avoid them I like this one.
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Post by Shinobu on Apr 2, 2021 1:37:53 GMT
The quest itself was fine and Bhatia came off as a sympathetic man. However, he still had some of the stereotypes like being accented. His wife being an Indian soldier is actually pretty unique as Indian women are not encouraged to be soldiers at all. However, you don't see her and Ashley only mentions her in passing. Again, they are all minor side characters that do not matter even a tiny bit toward the overall narrative as you said. Re: the bolded - is this the future we want? Homogenized, synthesized, one world state as human freight? I grew up earlier than many of you, me and helios are closer in age. We celebrated multiculturalism... is this dead now? What a shame. I don't think he's arguing for homogeneity. If there are a lot of South Asians in media and many don't have accents, then the others with accents are fine. But since most of us in North America only had Apu from the Simpsons as a reference for what being South Asian is, it would be nice to see more of something else.
And this is what Hari Kandabolu is talking about. Dopinder is funny, which makes the stereotype seem less harmful.
And it would be fine to have Dopinder if we also had more characters like Kumail (who also played Tann in Andromeda):
Or Javed.
Not sure how old you are, but I'm probably close if not older. I don't remember much multiculturalism being celebrated in the 80s. If anything it's more celebrated now, even as it's also being violently rejected by some people.
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Post by Shinobu on Apr 2, 2021 2:36:24 GMT
Re: the bolded - is this the future we want? Homogenized, synthesized, one world state as human freight? I grew up earlier than many of you, me and helios are closer in age. We celebrated multiculturalism... is this dead now? What a shame. I think people just like outrage. If everyone was samified they'd cry whitewashing. Who are "they"? I don't think anyone in this thread is outraged. Which is actually quite a feat around here, so nice going!
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Post by helios969 on Apr 2, 2021 7:39:28 GMT
I think people just like outrage. If everyone was samified they'd cry whitewashing. Who are "they"? I don't think anyone in this thread is outraged. Which is actually quite a feat around here, so nice going! How DARE you? Better?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 2, 2021 7:50:18 GMT
I will be 49 this summer, and I grew up in a very "progressive" college town where multiculturalism was actually a significant part of our education. Of course, it was limited to the local natives that had been marginalized, but I learned to make a hopi blanket which was neat.
In the 90s my mother was actually teaching multiculturalism in English class, so there was an evolution. It died, like most good education initiatives.
I see your point about inclusion and accented/unaccented and why it is better to have both. Thanks for the perspective!
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Post by obbie1984 on Apr 2, 2021 10:27:53 GMT
The quest itself was fine and Bhatia came off as a sympathetic man. However, he still had some of the stereotypes like being accented. His wife being an Indian soldier is actually pretty unique as Indian women are not encouraged to be soldiers at all. However, you don't see her and Ashley only mentions her in passing. Again, they are all minor side characters that do not matter even a tiny bit toward the overall narrative as you said. Re: the bolded - is this the future we want? Homogenized, synthesized, one world state as human freight? I grew up earlier than many of you, me and helios are closer in age. We celebrated multiculturalism... is this dead now? What a shame. Is that what I said? If anything I am saying the opposite. I would like to see more Indian people in gaming or developers to explore Indian culture more. It is woefully under represented. But nearly any time an Indian person is represented, they will have a stereotypical accent (and even job) to identify them as one. As if that is their most defining feature. I'd like to see one that isn't for a change. I don't think this is wrong in the slightest. I also don't know where the other guy got "outrage" from. Shinobu pretty much said what I was going to say. Its probably harder to understand or relate to certain stereotypes if you aren't a part of that demographic. Especially if that demographic is poorly and rarely represented.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 2, 2021 17:12:36 GMT
It is not what you said, but it is what I read. I apologize for misunderstanding.
I love accents, and I speak a few languages, so it is admittedly a little bit of a fetish. I totally understand your point though, and I know far more Indian people that speak perfect or near perfect english than I do people that sound stereotypically accented, so it would also represent reality for some.
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Post by Trilobite Derby on Apr 2, 2021 18:07:56 GMT
I like Liam, damnit.
He seems a LOT like some of the younger firefighters and search and rescue guys in my area. I feel like someone hung out with the first responders before writing him. Liam's extensive flaws make him seem more realistic and true to life. Which is what's missing in a lot of the shallower characters.
Making a one-note character for representation! and then making them more or less just that representation! even if it's portrayed positively (yeah, I'll throw Captain Marvel under the bus here too) is... not as rewarding to me as seeing a first responder like Liam plow headlong into a problem and keep throwing in all the way until finally it works.
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Post by Unicephalon 40-D on Apr 2, 2021 18:56:18 GMT
I like Liam, damnit. He seems a LOT like some of the younger firefighters and search and rescue guys in my area. I feel like someone hung out with the first responders before writing him. Liam's extensive flaws make him seem more realistic and true to life. Which is what's missing in a lot of the shallower characters. Making a one-note character for representation! and then making them more or less just that representation! even if it's portrayed positively (yeah, I'll throw Captain Marvel under the bus here too) is... not as rewarding to me as seeing a first responder like Liam plow headlong into a problem and keep throwing in all the way until finally it works. I did Liam romance and that actually opened up the character the best. I... actually changed my liking and he's ok guy
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Post by Trilobite Derby on Apr 2, 2021 21:45:29 GMT
I like Liam, damnit. He seems a LOT like some of the younger firefighters and search and rescue guys in my area. I feel like someone hung out with the first responders before writing him. Liam's extensive flaws make him seem more realistic and true to life. Which is what's missing in a lot of the shallower characters. Making a one-note character for representation! and then making them more or less just that representation! even if it's portrayed positively (yeah, I'll throw Captain Marvel under the bus here too) is... not as rewarding to me as seeing a first responder like Liam plow headlong into a problem and keep throwing in all the way until finally it works. I did Liam romance and that actually opened up the character the best. I... actually changed my liking and he's ok guy Yeah, Liam's an idiot. But he's an idiot in a realistic way.
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Post by duskwanderer on Apr 3, 2021 0:18:34 GMT
Anything. Flirtation. Dismissiveness. I don't care who the target is, as long as I can feel however I want. Let's say you enter an dancing bar looking to sneak in. The jackass at the door tells a woman she should shake her ass on the stage, and tells a man he should drop 2000 credits for the hope he might be touched briefly. Then let me shoot the asshole in the head. Since you want more of this and I want less, maybe they should keep the amount the same. But we got so very little of it, and it mostly existed just to demean. People treat each other differently. A good way to show it is that weirdo turian shopkeeper in ME2. If you saved the Council, he's a supergeek. If you didn't, he's a jackass. More like that.
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Post by helios969 on Apr 3, 2021 7:33:09 GMT
I did Liam romance and that actually opened up the character the best. I... actually changed my liking and he's ok guy Yeah, Liam's an idiot. But he's an idiot in a realistic way. I agree. I just wish I could have dealt with him in a realistic way.
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Post by themikefest on Apr 3, 2021 14:37:04 GMT
Yeah, Liam's an idiot. But he's an idiot in a realistic way. I agree. I just wish I could have dealt with him in a realistic way. Like turn him over to Nexus security.
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Post by Radec on Apr 3, 2021 14:47:59 GMT
Yeah, Liam's an idiot. But he's an idiot in a realistic way. I agree. I just wish I could have dealt with him in a realistic way. Involving realistic airlock physics. But he's far from the only one, or even #1
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Post by Shinobu on Apr 4, 2021 22:22:00 GMT
I will be 49 this summer, and I grew up in a very "progressive" college town where multiculturalism was actually a significant part of our education. Of course, it was limited to the local natives that had been marginalized, but I learned to make a hopi blanket which was neat. In the 90s my mother was actually teaching multiculturalism in English class, so there was an evolution. It died, like most good education initiatives. I see your point about inclusion and accented/unaccented and why it is better to have both. Thanks for the perspective! Thank you for being open to different perspectives!
That's cool that you learned a traditional art form. When I was little I wished I were Native American instead of Japanese American because Native Americans had cool adventure books written about them (like Island of the Blue Dolphins, even though it was written by a white dude) whereas all we had was Farewell to Manzanar, which I thought was boring and depressing.
I'm a few years older than you. I grew up in a college town in California that turned into a wealthy right-leaning suburb after my parents moved us there. I was surrounded by people who looked down on those who weren't white and rich. Not everyone was like that, of course, but the divides of race and class were present all the time. For example, middle-class white kids I had been friends with since kindergarten stopped talking to me in middle school because I had a black friend from the "wrong" part of town, and that association hurt their chances of being friends with the rich white kids. Multiculturalism was not really celebrated and it was common to hear that Asians and Mexicans should be deported, and that school busing -- which brought (mostly black and latinx) kids from the poorer part of the city -- was bringing crime and lowering property values. So, I'm glad you weren't exposed to that in your youth, but there's no way I'm nostalgic for the 80's, even if I'm more at risk of getting shoved in the street these days.
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Post by Shinobu on Apr 4, 2021 22:30:12 GMT
I like Liam, damnit. He seems a LOT like some of the younger firefighters and search and rescue guys in my area. I feel like someone hung out with the first responders before writing him. Liam's extensive flaws make him seem more realistic and true to life. Which is what's missing in a lot of the shallower characters. Making a one-note character for representation! and then making them more or less just that representation! even if it's portrayed positively (yeah, I'll throw Captain Marvel under the bus here too) is... not as rewarding to me as seeing a first responder like Liam plow headlong into a problem and keep throwing in all the way until finally it works. Liam drives me a bit nuts, but that doesn't mean he is a badly written character. An annoying character can be well-written. And the best thing is he'd be just as annoying no matter what race he is, so progress!
Captain Marvel was too self-consciously woke, IMO. During the whole Alita vs. Captain Marvel debate I was like: "Hey, if you're deciding between going to see Captain Marvel and Alita, go see Spiderman Into the Spiderverse instead!" That was representation done right.
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Post by Shinobu on Apr 4, 2021 22:31:21 GMT
I like Liam, damnit. He seems a LOT like some of the younger firefighters and search and rescue guys in my area. I feel like someone hung out with the first responders before writing him. Liam's extensive flaws make him seem more realistic and true to life. Which is what's missing in a lot of the shallower characters. Making a one-note character for representation! and then making them more or less just that representation! even if it's portrayed positively (yeah, I'll throw Captain Marvel under the bus here too) is... not as rewarding to me as seeing a first responder like Liam plow headlong into a problem and keep throwing in all the way until finally it works. I did Liam romance and that actually opened up the character the best. I... actually changed my liking and he's ok guy Agreed. He's one of the least baggage-toting LI's in Bioware history.
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Post by Shinobu on Apr 4, 2021 23:47:45 GMT
Since you want more of this and I want less, maybe they should keep the amount the same. But we got so very little of it, and it mostly existed just to demean. People treat each other differently. A good way to show it is that weirdo turian shopkeeper in ME2. If you saved the Council, he's a supergeek. If you didn't, he's a jackass. More like that. Oh, I'm totally on board with getting different reactions. I just I don't want them to be based solely on the gender of the PC. Have someone insult my class (if that's still a thing after Andromeda), or my armor, or my hair color, or my choices. Or have a Turian shopkeeper give me a discount if a Turian squadmate is accompanying me.
Or have class specific cheesy pickup lines from PCs at the bar that are delivered regardless of PC gender:
Are you a Sentinel? Cause you've overloaded my heart! or A Sentinel? No thanks, you guys are Warped.
Are you an Engineer? Because your decoy looks just like you, and he's STUNNING! or No, thanks, you engineers just Drone on and on!
Are you an Infiltrator? You can recon mine... and I'll recon yours. or Ugh, If there's one thing I've learned, it's that you Infiltrators NEVER choose increased duration.
Are you an Adept? I'd love for you to throw me around! or An Adept? No thanks, I don't need blue balls.
Are you a Soldier? Cause your ammo's pierced my armored heart. or A Soldier? You've taken one too many concussive rounds to the head if you think I'm interested.
Are you a vanguard? You can charge on up to my place any time. or A Vanguard? You've charged too many walls if you think I'm into you.
I bet you're a Paragon in the streets and Renegade in the sheets. You go neutral? Don't worry, honey, I'll give you a reputation!
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Post by Deleted on Apr 5, 2021 0:10:07 GMT
Or have class specific cheesy pickup lines from PCs at the bar that are delivered regardless of PC gender: Are you a Sentinel? Cause you've overloaded my heart! or A Sentinel? No thanks, you guys are Warped. Are you an Engineer? Because your decoy looks just like you, and he's STUNNING! or No, thanks, you engineers just Drone on and on! Are you an Infiltrator? You can recon mine... and I'll recon yours. or Ugh, If there's one thing I've learned, it's that you Infiltrators NEVER choose increased duration. Are you an Adept? I'd love for you to throw me around! or An Adept? No thanks, I don't need blue balls. Are you a Soldier? Cause your ammo's pierced my armored heart. or A Soldier? You've taken one too many concussive rounds to the head if you think I'm interested. Are you a vanguard? You can charge on up to my place any time. or A Vanguard? You've charged too many walls if you think I'm into you. I bet you're a Paragon in the streets and Renegade in the sheets. You go neutral? Don't worry, honey, I'll give you a reputation! You have given me quite the Adrenaline Rush, and I feel the Hardening occuring, my shields are fully restored and I am ready to deal damage ma'am!
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