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Post by smilesja on Jun 13, 2021 21:29:55 GMT
While I do like Liam, the treatment of Jacob Taylor in ME3 was nothing less than an abomination. It's like Bioware just didn't care about Jacob without considering the implications. Of all the LIs, the black man is the one who cheats on Shep for crying out loud even Thane was loyal to Shep and he basically had the Drell equivalent to cancer. If you're going to make a black character for crying out loud, at least pretend that you're making them unique. And this is coming from someone who likes Jacob, It's a shame Bioware had to submit to fan apathy and make him into basically a cheater. Well making Jacob a cheater definitely made him unique. To make him of all people a cheater shows how tone deaf Bioware is, they're more progressive than most game companies but the way they treated Jacob is a black eye in their treatment of black characters.
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Post by Adia on Jun 15, 2021 19:56:02 GMT
But that's not surprising at all. The DA team has an incredible record in terms of rep. Yeah. In DAI there was: Dorian: Gay Josephine: Bisexual (can also be seen as Asexual or Demisexual) Leliana: Bisexual Sera: Lesbian The Iron Bull: Pansexual And that’s just in the main cast. There are also all the prominent secondary characters, like Krem, Charter, Celene and Briala, and so on. Also Meave (?) who Dorian talked about, appears in the comics and teased for the next game. With ME:A they were actually in deep water for their trans representation. I mean they were groundbreaking because Dorian and Sera are the first gay companions in a Bioware game, if not in general. I have yet to see another company who treated their gay character with the same respect, importance and value as Bioware did in DA:I. I can only hope for a step forward in DA4, instead of a step backwards.
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Post by Adia on Jun 15, 2021 20:04:03 GMT
Well making Jacob a cheater definitely made him unique. To make him of all people a cheater shows how tone deaf Bioware is, they're more progressive than most game companies but the way they treated Jacob is a black eye in their treatment of black characters. I do agree it was tone deaf, but in my theory in some sick way they rationalized it as a part of his arc. Let me explain: Jacob didn't have a father, right? His whole loyalty quest is regarding his missing father. So they tried to turn it around by making Jacob a father himself as part of his arc. Problem is, Shepard didn't consent to having a child, nor would she really have time to raise a child in the middle of a galactic genocide when she's the most important person in the galaxy. So, they gave the child to another character, and by doing that they made him a cheater. So in an effort of getting away from one stereotype they propitiated another. But that's just my theory.
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Post by Guardian on Jun 15, 2021 20:18:04 GMT
To make him of all people a cheater shows how tone deaf Bioware is, they're more progressive than most game companies but the way they treated Jacob is a black eye in their treatment of black characters. I do agree it was tone deaf, but in my theory in some sick way they rationalized it as a part of his arc. Let me explain: Jacob didn't have a father, right? His whole loyalty quest is regarding his missing father. So they tried to turn it around by making Jacob a father himself as part of his arc. Problem is, Shepard didn't consent to having a child, nor would she really have time to raise a child in the middle of a galactic genocide when she's the most important person in the galaxy. So, they gave the child to another character, and by doing that they made him a cheater. So in an effort of getting away from one stereotype they propitiated another. But that's just my theory.
smilesja raises a very valid point and concern, but I theorized this same thing, Adia.
Yeah, it was horrible for those that did romance Jacob (who I liked as a character...didn't get all the hate he had outside of the "forced" FemShep tone), but his arc is ended in ME 3 by doing what his father didn't. And I agree with the consent - we'd have torches and pitchforks, looking to burn him at the stake (especially with today's political vibe).
But smilesja is also right - Jacob deserved better treatment than what he got. Jacob doesn't deserve the massive amount of hate he gets, and this is before ME 3.
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Post by helios969 on Jun 17, 2021 7:58:39 GMT
To make him of all people a cheater shows how tone deaf Bioware is, they're more progressive than most game companies but the way they treated Jacob is a black eye in their treatment of black characters. I do agree it was tone deaf, but in my theory in some sick way they rationalized it as a part of his arc. Let me explain: Jacob didn't have a father, right? His whole loyalty quest is regarding his missing father. So they tried to turn it around by making Jacob a father himself as part of his arc. Problem is, Shepard didn't consent to having a child, nor would she really have time to raise a child in the middle of a galactic genocide when she's the most important person in the galaxy. So, they gave the child to another character, and by doing that they made him a cheater. So in an effort of getting away from one stereotype they propitiated another. But that's just my theory. Good line of thinking...although why anyone would want to try have a child in the midst of galactic genocide is crazy...not sure anyone should subject a child to such horrors. Is it me or does that seem selfish?
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Post by Link"Guess"ski on Jun 17, 2021 19:35:44 GMT
As a white guy I feel very offended that I'm always characterized as rich and protagonist-like.
I hope BioWare addresses this. After all, the point of characters in fiction is to have exemplary morals and representation, and the storytelling is secondary.
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Post by qunaripenis on Jun 17, 2021 21:05:48 GMT
As a white guy I feel very offended that I'm always characterized as rich and protagonist-like. I hope BioWare addresses this. After all, the point of characters in fiction is to have exemplary morals and representation, and the storytelling is secondary. For once i might actually agree with that completely, I don't think i've ever seen a white dude who came from nothing and is just awkward as shit without having to lean into white trash or lost royalty stereotypes. No leading man charisma or anything, just i giant fucking dork who was just trying to get by then (bioware made event) happens and he's roped into it.
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Post by Shinobu on Jun 17, 2021 21:45:38 GMT
As a white guy I feel very offended that I'm always characterized as rich and protagonist-like. I hope BioWare addresses this. After all, the point of characters in fiction is to have exemplary morals and representation, and the storytelling is secondary. For once i might actually agree with that completely, I don't think i've ever seen a white dude who came from nothing and is just awkward as shit without having to lean into white trash or lost royalty stereotypes. No leading man charisma or anything, just i giant fucking dork who was just trying to get by then (bioware made event) happens and he's roped into it. Conrad Verner
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Post by Link"Guess"ski on Jun 17, 2021 21:51:14 GMT
As a white guy I feel very offended that I'm always characterized as rich and protagonist-like. I hope BioWare addresses this. After all, the point of characters in fiction is to have exemplary morals and representation, and the storytelling is secondary. For once i might actually agree with that completely, I don't think i've ever seen a white dude who came from nothing and is just awkward as shit without having to lean into white trash or lost royalty stereotypes. No leading man charisma or anything, just i giant fucking dork who was just trying to get by then (bioware made event) happens and he's roped into it. We also have never seen a qunari penis in Dragon Age.
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Post by qunaripenis on Jun 18, 2021 1:34:57 GMT
For once i might actually agree with that completely, I don't think i've ever seen a white dude who came from nothing and is just awkward as shit without having to lean into white trash or lost royalty stereotypes. No leading man charisma or anything, just i giant fucking dork who was just trying to get by then (bioware made event) happens and he's roped into it. We also have never seen a qunari penis in Dragon Age. Still mad at EA for putting a black box on it.
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Post by qunaripenis on Jun 18, 2021 1:35:54 GMT
For once i might actually agree with that completely, I don't think i've ever seen a white dude who came from nothing and is just awkward as shit without having to lean into white trash or lost royalty stereotypes. No leading man charisma or anything, just i giant fucking dork who was just trying to get by then (bioware made event) happens and he's roped into it. Conrad Verner Shooting him in the foot was one hell of a highlight.
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Post by smilesja on Jun 18, 2021 1:37:35 GMT
Shooting him in the foot was one hell of a highlight.
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Post by Adia on Jun 18, 2021 22:42:12 GMT
I do agree it was tone deaf, but in my theory in some sick way they rationalized it as a part of his arc. Let me explain: Jacob didn't have a father, right? His whole loyalty quest is regarding his missing father. So they tried to turn it around by making Jacob a father himself as part of his arc. Problem is, Shepard didn't consent to having a child, nor would she really have time to raise a child in the middle of a galactic genocide when she's the most important person in the galaxy. So, they gave the child to another character, and by doing that they made him a cheater. So in an effort of getting away from one stereotype they propitiated another. But that's just my theory. Good line of thinking...although why anyone would want to try have a child in the midst of galactic genocide is crazy...not sure anyone should subject a child to such horrors. Is it me or does that seem selfish? I could be wrong but didn't Jacob portrait it as a mistake? Don't think it was intentional. Again I could be wrong
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Post by Adia on Jun 18, 2021 22:43:25 GMT
For once i might actually agree with that completely, I don't think i've ever seen a white dude who came from nothing and is just awkward as shit without having to lean into white trash or lost royalty stereotypes. No leading man charisma or anything, just i giant fucking dork who was just trying to get by then (bioware made event) happens and he's roped into it. We also have never seen a qunari penis in Dragon Age. And I'm grateful for that. I'd pay not to see that lmao
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Post by Link"Guess"ski on Jun 19, 2021 11:56:12 GMT
We also have never seen a qunari penis in Dragon Age. And I'm grateful for that. I'd pay not to see that lmao Well--aaah ha haah... maybe you should.
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Post by Felya87 on Jun 19, 2021 17:15:44 GMT
We also have never seen a qunari penis in Dragon Age. We have never seen a penis in a BioWare game - period, mods aside. Just ugly underwear. At least we had some good manly ASSets in DAI and MEA ...Now that I think about it, I think I have ever seen penis in games just in Dante's Inferno and Outlast. I can't remember anything else.
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Post by steppinrazor on Jun 20, 2021 5:48:37 GMT
We also have never seen a qunari penis in Dragon Age. We have never seen a penis in a BioWare game - period, mods aside. Just ugly underwear. At least we had some good manly ASSets in DAI and MEA ...Now that I think about it, I think I have ever seen penis in games just in Dante's Inferno and Outlast. I can't remember anything else. GTA ballad of gay tony I believe. I know Ive seen a few more schlongs. Cyberpunk as well.
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Post by Felya87 on Jun 20, 2021 6:55:40 GMT
We have never seen a penis in a BioWare game - period, mods aside. Just ugly underwear. At least we had some good manly ASSets in DAI and MEA ...Now that I think about it, I think I have ever seen penis in games just in Dante's Inferno and Outlast. I can't remember anything else. GTA ballad of gay tony I believe. I know Ive seen a few more schlongs. Cyberpunk as well. Never played either games. I think I've read that in Cyberpunk penis are all covered outside CC. I don't know if it was changed.
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Post by FiendishlyInventive on Jul 11, 2021 23:00:15 GMT
An interesting one indeed, look at my profile picture avatar, how do you even begin to approach trans characters in a Mass Effect setting?
In fact in terms of videogames, I have only ever heard of our inclusion in Celeste and The Missing: J.J. Macfield and the Island of Memories, the former I have never played and the other's superb but anyway never in science fiction.
Sure you can argue that many analogues exist but I do not know of any direct representation but perhaps that's ultimately a good thing.
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Post by Felya87 on Jul 12, 2021 8:09:57 GMT
In fact in terms of videogames, I have only ever heard of our inclusion in Celeste and The Missing: J.J. Macfield and the Island of Memories, the former I have never played and the other's superb but anyway never in science fiction. Dontnod's game Tell Me Why have a trans men as one of the two protagonist (the other is his twin sister), if I remember correctly (haven't played the game myself...too little time so I don't know if it was done well)
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Post by Unicephalon 40-D on Jul 12, 2021 8:18:03 GMT
An interesting one indeed, look at my profile picture avatar, how do you even begin to approach trans characters in a Mass Effect setting? In fact in terms of videogames, I have only ever heard of our inclusion in Celeste and The Missing: J.J. Macfield and the Island of Memories, the former I have never played and the other's superb but anyway never in science fiction. Sure you can argue that many analogues exist but I do not know of any direct representation but perhaps that's ultimately a good thing. Ok so the profile has transflag? Am I right? Anyway, masseffect.fandom.com/wiki/Hainly_Abrams
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Post by Deleted on Jul 14, 2021 17:00:43 GMT
As a human....
I hope they avoid the ME stereotype they have created, that we are galactically special.
I am not certain I am human, for the record. I don't like many of you, and my goals and means to them are alien to most "people". So, let's not have humanity be so special in this next game, as from all Earthly evidence we are not that special, unless you mean short bus special.
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Post by dmc1001 on Jul 14, 2021 17:57:37 GMT
I hope they avoid the ME stereotype they have created, that we are galactically special. I agree, which is why I felt the timeline in ME1 made zero sense. We should have lost the war against the turians, become their client race and then built ourselves up and eventually taking a seat on the Council following the defeat of Sovereign. This should have, at minimum (and I'd go longer) it would be a century. It would also work better with humanity having so many issues with aliens. As a client race, it would be easy to see themselves as second-class citizens. This would also make the rise of Cerberus be more believable with factions within the military (since in ME1 they were a rogue black ops organization), government and wealthy investors. The money thrown into it could have grown slowly over time rather than the trillions of credits that would have been required over the course of ~25 years. I use that value because we know it took 4 billion credits to restore Shepard and that was just one small project. If there was ever a remake of the MET (and I'm against it) I'd stretch out the timeline more. Oh, and make that BroShep/Kaidan romance I wanted from the start.
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Post by shotgunjulia on Jul 19, 2021 22:05:43 GMT
Well making Jacob a cheater definitely made him unique. To make him of all people a cheater shows how tone deaf Bioware is, they're more progressive than most game companies but the way they treated Jacob is a black eye in their treatment of black characters. You know this really pissed me off when I played through ME3 back in 2012. I romanced Jacob and then this hunk of a man cheats. The negative stereotype was the first thing I thought about. When I played through as Sheploo, Jacob was a standup guy. And when playing through as femShep he would have been my first choice for ME2 romance because he's a stand up guy. However, now knowing what happens in ME3, I won't go the romance route with him. And knowing Thane dies, I'll choose Garrus. However... in the original ME2, femShep was really a bit creepy with the "I want to just talk for a bit" straight away with Jacob. And I can somewhat understand why Jacob would want someone more mentally stable to have a family with. Bioware seems to have done some voice editing in the Legendary Edition. They even altered femShep's animation there. Also, in ME1, Kaidan was such a milquetoast that femShep had a dialogue choice of "Be a man" during the love scene. Seriously? And if you left him on Virmire, romanced Jacob (or Thane) in ME2, you were left with nothing but lesbian relationships for ME3. Whereas Sheploo was a dog and could romance anyone. This crap needs to be better balanced. BTW, didn't they even consider there could have been sexual tension between James and femShep?
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Post by shotgunjulia on Jul 19, 2021 22:11:20 GMT
Shooting him in the foot was one hell of a highlight. Around the part where Conrad says that his wife even paid his way off world... Aethyta's reaction in the background is gold.
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