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Post by Deleted on Jul 2, 2021 15:48:16 GMT
... and their story contains "choices" to be made by the player. No, sorry, it's their story. They said it. Publicly, when we complained about the endings. None of your choices have to matter, or amount to anything. It's their story. Don't like it, don't buy it. That doesn't preclude the fact that it is written in a manner than enables choices to be made in the first place... and all that dialogue (and all the variations of dialogue) they insert into the game is part of "their story." They control from start what range of choices they enable. Their story is still not linear and not just "one story" but several encased in one platform called an RPG game. It's not within the players control to "decanonize" what is already canon... and ALL the EC endings are still officially canon. Only the original endings have now been "decanonized" by Bioware.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Jul 2, 2021 15:52:48 GMT
That doesn't preclude the fact that it is written in a manner than enables choices to be made in the first place... And it doesn't preclude that they can't disregard them.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 2, 2021 16:04:53 GMT
That doesn't preclude the fact that it is written in a manner than enables choices to be made in the first place... And it doesn't preclude that they can't disregard them. However, that is exactly what the proponents of "making X ending canon" are saying. They want Bioware to "decanonize" all the other endings except the one they prefer. .. and I'm against that. Historically, for the most part, Bioware has made the subsequent games either 1) vague enough that the previous choice could still have been made or 2) made variations in the dialogue to recognize individual choices. They don't have to officially recognize just one of the possible choices.
For example, the council choice in ME1. It is recognized as an individual choice in ME2 and ME3... the game goes forward differently if you saved or destroyed the original council. They didn't declare that only one choice could have been made by the player. They homogenized things though so that the choice did not maintain the sweeping impact on the story that it could have had if it had been the only choice available.
I anticipate they'll do something similar with the endings. All will remain possible for Shepard to have chosen them, but not of them will be maintained as having as much of a sweeping impact on the subsequent as the players want to see it have. It will be whitewashed and sidestepped eventually. If they do allow the player to input their choice somehow, then we'll see some dialogue that recognizes that... but, again, it will not have a major or sweeping impact on the course of the post-Reaper war story in the galaxy.
EVERYTHING in the current Legendary Edition is ALREADY canon...Bioware has clearly stated that MELE is the definitive version of the Trilogy... and the ending choices available in the EC are all still there. Soldier Shepard potentially having stasis as a bonus power in ME2 is no longer in the canon, but that Shepard could have been either a solder or an adept is still within the canon of the Trilogy. For stasis on an Shepard who is not an adept, you now have to mod the game to get it (unless it is a bug and they fix it at some point). Any mod that changes the EC ending (i.e. by putting Shepard at the memorial) is not in the canon... and has never been in the canon.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Jul 2, 2021 16:18:01 GMT
However, that is exactly what the proponents of "making X ending canon" are saying. They want Bioware to "decanonize" all the other endings except the one they prefer. .. and I'm against that. It doesn't matter what I or you prefer. People who defended Bioware's perspective of ME being "their story" instead of ours, have no bearing on this. It is hypocritical to ask what you want, because you waved your right to that a long time ago, you enforced it on people who championed player choice and their right to disagree on the Bioware's objective bias toward the quality of their product. You gave it backing and you gave it credence. So now, you can complain, but you've waved the power of your voice, away, because you endorsed that behaviour, when it was imperative to criticize it. So do whatever.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 2, 2021 16:23:26 GMT
However, that is exactly what the proponents of "making X ending canon" are saying. They want Bioware to "decanonize" all the other endings except the one they prefer. .. and I'm against that. It doesn't matter what I or you prefer. People who defended Bioware's perspective of ME being "their story" instead of ours, have no bearing on this. It is hypocritical to ask what you want, because you waved your right to that a long time ago, you enforced it on people who championed player choice and their right to disagree on the Bioware's objective bias toward the quality of their product. You gave it backing and you gave it credence. So now, you can complain, but you've waved the power of your voice, away, because you endorsed that behaviour, when it was imperative to criticize it. So do whatever. I'm not the one here asking for an individual ending, am I? I'm asking that they all be maintained as part of the canon. So far, they have not "decanonized" any ending other than the original ones. You're the one imagining that they have. All the EC endings are still canon since they are all part of the Legendary Edition, which has been declared the definitive version of the Trilogy. The "power" of my voice is not "diminished" here just because you obviously are refusing to even read what I'm posting.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Jul 2, 2021 16:25:30 GMT
I'm not the one here asking for an individual ending, am I? I'm asking that they all be maintained as part of the canon. Sounds like you're asking for something. It's not up to you. Bioware doesn't need to bend over backward to your wishes.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 2, 2021 16:28:25 GMT
I'm not the one here asking for an individual ending, am I? I'm asking that they all be maintained as part of the canon. Sounds like you're asking for something. It's not up to you. Bioware doesn't need to bend over backward to your wishes. They don't have to bend over backward to your wishes. Again, they've stated the Legendary Edition is the definitive version of the Trilogy. All the EC endings are in the Legendary Edition. Only the original endings have been removed from the canon.
I'm not asking anything of Biwoare. They've already delivered what I wanted. It's time for all the "make X ending canon" folk to just accept the fac that... all the EC endings are in the Legendary Edition... and the Legendary Edition is now the definitive version of the Trilogy.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Jul 2, 2021 16:30:57 GMT
They don't have to bend over backward to your wishes. Again, they've stated the Legendary Edition is the definitive version of the Trilogy. All the EC endings are in the Legendary Edition. Only the original endings have been removed from the canon. Seems to me that you don't understand nor share Bioware's vision and you are impossible to satisfy, with this idea of what the future games should do or be about.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 2, 2021 16:36:12 GMT
They don't have to bend over backward to your wishes. Again, they've stated the Legendary Edition is the definitive version of the Trilogy. All the EC endings are in the Legendary Edition. Only the original endings have been removed from the canon. Seems to me that you don't understand nor share Bioware's vision and you are impossible to satisfy, with this idea of what the future games should do or be about. You're the one speculating that they'll move forward in such a way that only one ending will be possible for Shepard to have made. If they do that, they will break with their "traditional" way of treating choices within the MEU. What Bioware actually does won't be known until they officially reveal it. I can speculate however I want... as can you. Only time will tell which one of us "shares Bioware's vision" and which one doesn't.
Bioware has declared that the Legendary Edition is the definitive version of the Trilogy. All EC endings are part of the Legendary Edition; and therefore, are part of the canon work. As much as I like the original endings, those are no longer part of the canon work. The original games are no longer the definitive versions of the Trilogy.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Jul 2, 2021 16:48:00 GMT
Seems to me that you don't understand nor share Bioware's vision and you are impossible to satisfy, with this idea of what the future games should do or be about. You're the one speculating that they'll move forward in such a way that only one ending will be possible for Shepard to have made. If they do that, they will break with their "traditional" way of treating choices within the MEU. What Bioware actually does won't be known until they officially reveal it. I can speculate however I want... as can you. Only time will tell which one of us "shares Bioware's vision" and which one doesn't.
Bioware has declared that the Legendary Edition is the definitive version of the Trilogy. All EC endings are part of the Legendary Edition; and therefore, are part of the canon work. As much as I like the original endings, those are no longer part of the canon work. The original games are no longer the definitive versions of the Trilogy.
You're entitled to your opinion, you're not entitled to dictating how Bioware should move forward.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 2, 2021 17:34:28 GMT
You're the one speculating that they'll move forward in such a way that only one ending will be possible for Shepard to have made. If they do that, they will break with their "traditional" way of treating choices within the MEU. What Bioware actually does won't be known until they officially reveal it. I can speculate however I want... as can you. Only time will tell which one of us "shares Bioware's vision" and which one doesn't.
Bioware has declared that the Legendary Edition is the definitive version of the Trilogy. All EC endings are part of the Legendary Edition; and therefore, are part of the canon work. As much as I like the original endings, those are no longer part of the canon work. The original games are no longer the definitive versions of the Trilogy.
You're entitled to your opinion, you're not entitled to dictating how Bioware should move forward. I;m not. You seem bent on that though. I'm entitled to have an opinion... a preference on what I'd like to see done... and to react to whatever has been done. They declared Legendary Edition to be the definitive edition. That's past tense. Already done by them. They also decided that the Legendary Edition contains all the EC endings. Again, past tense... already done. As of right now, ALL the EC endings are within the canon. They punted the original endings out of the canon. Again, PAST TENSE, already done. I support their decisions that they have already revealed to us.
I really don't know what part of this you are refusing to understand. We're done here. I've repeated myself enough. GTH.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Jul 2, 2021 17:35:13 GMT
Yes, you are. If you are vying for something, you are. I don't know what is so hard to understand. You are vying for a sequel that keeps all endings. That's not up to you. Bioware will do whatever they want and they don't need you telling them what to do.
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Post by SofaJockey on Jul 2, 2021 17:39:25 GMT
The more time goes on, the more faith I have that they may not force us to go with destroy. I see little likelihood of BioWare canonising one of the endings, it would so not be like them. Several hundred years is more than enough time to unravel things so that the differences might not be impossible to deal with.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jul 2, 2021 17:48:09 GMT
The more time goes on, the more faith I have that they may not force us to go with destroy. I see little likelihood of BioWare canonising one of the endings, it would so not be like them. Several hundred years is more than enough time to unravel things so that the differences might not be impossible to deal with. One of the endings literally kills off an entire group of beings. Time won't be ale to unravel that, unless they get killed off for some reason even with the other endings. ut at that point they went with Destroy being canon basically. And of course the other races that can be extinct by the end of the game.
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Post by SofaJockey on Jul 2, 2021 17:52:48 GMT
One of the endings literally kills off an entire group of beings. Time won't be ale to unravel that, unless they get killed off for some reason even with the other endings. ut at that point they went with Destroy being canon basically. And of course the other races that can be extinct by the end of the game. I don't buy canonising the 'destroy' ending - that seems pretty nonsensical to me. I have no expectation that BioWare will do it. I guess we'll find out in 2026 (?)
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jul 2, 2021 17:55:03 GMT
One of the endings literally kills off an entire group of beings. Time won't be ale to unravel that, unless they get killed off for some reason even with the other endings. ut at that point they went with Destroy being canon basically. And of course the other races that can be extinct by the end of the game. I'm excluding the refusal ending as basically the failed game end. But I think we'll see the other 3. Pushing for a canon 'destroy' ending seems pretty nonsensical to be. I have no expectation that BioWare will do it. I guess we'll find out in 2026 (?) As was I. By other races I was referring to things like the Quarians or Rachni being wiped out, or the Krogan doomed to extinction. So how would time bring these three endings together, when one has all synthetics murdered and the lore says they can't be brought back as they were?
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Post by SofaJockey on Jul 2, 2021 17:57:31 GMT
So how would time bring these three endings together, when one has all synthetics murdered and the lore says they can't be brought back as they were? Who knows. That's for BioWare to figure out. I'm sure they can.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 2, 2021 18:07:24 GMT
The more time goes on, the more faith I have that they may not force us to go with destroy. I see little likelihood of BioWare canonising one of the endings, it would so not be like them. Several hundred years is more than enough time to unravel things so that the differences might not be impossible to deal with. Exactly why I've been trying to convey here.
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Post by Son of Dorn on Jul 2, 2021 18:11:05 GMT
So how would time bring these three endings together, when one has all synthetics murdered and the lore says they can't be brought back as they were? Who knows. That's for BioWare to figure out. I'm sure they can. Highly doubtful. Seeing as it was they, or more accurately Hudson and Walters, who created this mess to start with.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jul 2, 2021 18:11:11 GMT
So how would time bring these three endings together, when one has all synthetics murdered and the lore says they can't be brought back as they were? Who knows. That's for BioWare to figure out. I'm sure they can. That doesn't work for me anymore. Not after what they figured out with how to do DA4. Not after what they figured out how to handle the MEA criticism. Not after what they figured out how to handle the Anthem situation.
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Post by SofaJockey on Jul 2, 2021 18:13:48 GMT
Exactly why I've been trying to convey here. I agree. The whole point of BioWare's games (ME and DA) is that choices are reflected in subsequent titles (even if the impact of some elapses over time). That doesn't work for me anymore Your doubts are pretty irrelevant because it falls to BioWare to write themselves out of their corner. Writing is not some kind of 'fan popularity contest'. They'll write what they want to write. You may like or dislike the solution that is presented, that's another matter, and we'll see in time what it is.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jul 2, 2021 18:24:41 GMT
That doesn't work for me anymore Your doubts are pretty irrelevant because it falls to BioWare to write themselves out of their corner. Writing is not some kind of 'fan popularity contest'. They'll write what they want to write. You may like or dislike the solution that is presented, that's another matter, and we'll see in time what it is. Not saying it is a matter of popularity. I'm saying it's a matter of competence. Considering those events I listed, they don't have it anymore when it comes to what you think they'll do, and have established a pattern of stabbing their fans in the back instead. There is no way they can unify all the various ME3 worldstates. The endings aren't even the hardest part.
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Post by Son of Dorn on Jul 2, 2021 18:26:20 GMT
Exactly why I've been trying to convey here. I agree. The whole point of BioWare's games (ME and DA) is that choices are reflected in subsequent titles (even if the impact of some elapses over time). That doesn't work for me anymore Your doubts are pretty irrelevant because it falls to BioWare to write themselves out of their corner. Writing is not some kind of 'fan popularity contest'. They'll write what they want to write. You may like or dislike the solution that is presented, that's another matter, and we'll see in time what it is. Their past actions and failings speak for itself.
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Post by SofaJockey on Jul 2, 2021 18:34:16 GMT
Their past actions and failings speak for itself. You seem to be getting confused. All I've said is that BioWare's games have choices carry over to subsequent games. Your own doubts about their capability in doing it successfully does not alter that it sits with them to do it.
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Post by Son of Dorn on Jul 2, 2021 18:53:51 GMT
Their past actions and failings speak for itself. You seem to be getting confused. All I've said is that BioWare's games have choices carry over to subsequent games. Your own doubts about their capability in doing it successfully does not alter that it sits with them to do it. Which they still failed at. Most of those choices ended up having substitute counterparts instead.
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