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Post by gervaise21 on Aug 26, 2021 15:06:13 GMT
“Sorry we massacred an entire town of innocent people, then invaded and did that to countless more. Here’s a deer (just for the first one btw).” So are you another person who thinks people 700 years later should still be condemned for what their ancestors did? The elves were punished in losing their homeland. Wasn't that enough? The Dalish were making an attempt at reconciliation. As I've said, Drakon killed far more people in establishing his empire, yet the Chantry venerate his memory. There are also individuals who are Anointed in the Chantry (their equivalent of sainthood) for killing elves. One of them even enjoyed doing it.
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Post by gervaise21 on Aug 26, 2021 15:13:46 GMT
But it's not enough for what the Dalish did wrong. So what did the city elves do? What would be enough for the humans to do to make amends for all the murders, rapes and mistreatment they have had to endure for the last 700 years? Not to mention turning a blind eye to the slave trafficking throughout southern Thedas even though officially it is meant to be illegal. I bet anything that Loghain wasn't the first commander to finance his war effort in that way.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Aug 26, 2021 15:14:42 GMT
“Sorry we massacred an entire town of innocent people, then invaded and did that to countless more. Here’s a deer (just for the first one btw).” So are you another person who thinks people 700 years later should still be condemned for what their ancestors did? The elves were punished in losing their homeland. Wasn't that enough? The Dalish were making an attempt at reconciliation. As I've said, Drakon killed far more people in establishing his empire, yet the Chantry venerate his memory. There are also individuals who are Anointed in the Chantry (their equivalent of sainthood) for killing elves. One of them even enjoyed doing it. No. Just commenting on the hilariously bad attempt that was is all.
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights
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Post by gervaise21 on Aug 26, 2021 15:22:56 GMT
Solas does state in DAI when talking to him if get Celene and Briala back together (or if you support Briala) and the Inquisitor says Briala could help his people and he replies to effect is: "My people? Oh you mean the elves! I've lived apart from them so long that I no longer see them as my people." So he clearly doesn't see modem elves as "true elves" I think refers to the Dalish "children playing pretend" or something like that. In quest that locks the Inquisitor/Sera romance he says "Sera is as much elf as I am a horse!" So I think it's safe to say that Solas doesn't have high opinion of modern elves. Yes, this is why I find it hard to believe that somehow we have all misunderstood his words to Lavellan, although I don't think his attitude to Sera should necessarily be taken as proof. He tries very hard to try and get her to connect with her elven identity but clearly gives it up in the end as an impossible task because of her absolute refusal to even consider it. In fact, it is because he tries so hard with her that people have argued that he does see some merit in modern elves. That is why I wondered if the distinction drawn was that Lavellan is Dalish as opposed to a city elf. He does seem to have a far more sympathetic attitude towards the city elves so may be, if they are not Sera, he does see some possibility of restoration for them. The Dalish, though, are toast. I can't see him doing anything to help them, although he might well use them for his own ends, just as Felassan did the clan in Masked Empire, before he fed them to a demon.
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Post by gervaise21 on Aug 26, 2021 15:27:46 GMT
No. Just commenting on the hilariously bad attempt that was is all. You have to see it in the context of what the halla mean to the Dalish. They think it is a highly symbolic gift of good faith. What they don't appreciate is that most humans have no idea about Dalish culture, so wouldn't see it in the same light. In a way, it is not so much hilarious as tragic for the lack of understanding on both sides. Which is why, as a Dalish, I was particularly disappointed with Josephine's response as I honestly thought if anyone could explain it to the villagers it would be her.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Aug 26, 2021 15:35:04 GMT
No. Just commenting on the hilariously bad attempt that was is all. You have to see it in the context of what the halla mean to the Dalish. They think it is a highly symbolic gift of good faith. What they don't appreciate is that most humans have no idea about Dalish culture, so wouldn't see it in the same light. In a way, it is not so much hilarious as tragic for the lack of understanding on both sides. Which is why, as a Dalish, I was particularly disappointed with Josephine's response as I honestly thought if anyone could explain it to the villagers it would be her. As you point out, the halla mean different things to each group. Even with Josephine explaining it, to the humans it’s just an empty gesture for the worst moment in their history. If anything the fact they took it as anything but an insult or rubbing salt in the reopened wound is a blessing. The Dalish should offer a gift that is meaningful or at least beneficial to the humans since the humans were the ones who were wronged.
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by pessimistpanda on Aug 26, 2021 16:06:50 GMT
Lol, if humans are still butthurt about Red Crossing, then Elves are entitled to want payback for LITERALLY EVERYTHING ELSE.
The only gift that any elf should be giving to any human is a nice new arrow between the eyes.
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Post by fylimar on Aug 26, 2021 16:42:22 GMT
But it's not enough for what the Dalish did wrong. So what did the city elves do? What would be enough for the humans to do to make amends for all the murders, rapes and mistreatment they have had to endure for the last 700 years? Not to mention turning a blind eye to the slave trafficking throughout southern Thedas even though officially it is meant to be illegal. I bet anything that Loghain wasn't the first commander to finance his war effort in that way. I was about to write something similar, so I only can say, I agree here.
It's a bit odd, that according to some people here, the humans in teh DA universe can murder, rape, slavetrading their way through Thedas history, but what the Dalish did 700 years ago is the most evil thing ever.
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Post by duskwanderer on Aug 26, 2021 16:43:17 GMT
Ameridan confirms that the elves had an alliance with Drakon that they chose not to honor. They never explained that one. On the one hand he says they think Drakon is "no better than Tevinter". On the other, he maintains they had an alliance with him. What alliance? There had never been any suggestion of that before, even by the Chantry. If they had actually had an alliance with Drakon, wouldn't the Chantry have used that as yet more propaganda against the Dalish? Yet, there was nothing until Ameridan mentions it in JoH. Was the alliance some sort of agreement they came to so the Dalish would continue to ignore human affairs and not ally with Drakon's rivals when he was going around killing them? Again, the lack of any suggestion of this prior to JoH seems to be another example of ignoring previous lack of information to paint the Dalish in the worst possible light. "They" meaning the elves. The elves were given lands and then they decided to treat all humans the same. There's been no suggestion of it because it's truly not relevant in the day to day. The elves were allied with Orlais until they broke the alliance. It's truly not relevant to the lives of Thedas. Nor has it been relevant to the Warden, Hawke, or Inquisitor. Further, propaganda against what? The elves sacking and killing humans is far more effective, and sticks in the mind better, than betraying an alliance. Corpses speak loudly. Since Ameridan uses the word "alliance", that's a very specific word with very specific meaning. I don't think "they want the Dalish to look bad" is an excuse.
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Post by duskwanderer on Aug 26, 2021 16:46:21 GMT
But it's not enough for what the Dalish did wrong. So what did the city elves do? What would be enough for the humans to do to make amends for all the murders, rapes and mistreatment they have had to endure for the last 700 years? Not to mention turning a blind eye to the slave trafficking throughout southern Thedas even though officially it is meant to be illegal. I bet anything that Loghain wasn't the first commander to finance his war effort in that way. What about the city elves? Brutality is hardly special in Thedas. You can look among the world and find gallons of it. Look at what Briala's people were doing: Prolonging a suffering war where lots of people died (and the famine such war causes). The humans and the elves have no reason to like each other. It's just interesting what people will excuse.
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Post by duskwanderer on Aug 26, 2021 16:48:55 GMT
You have to see it in the context of what the halla mean to the Dalish. They think it is a highly symbolic gift of good faith. What they don't appreciate is that most humans have no idea about Dalish culture, so wouldn't see it in the same light. In a way, it is not so much hilarious as tragic for the lack of understanding on both sides. Which is why, as a Dalish, I was particularly disappointed with Josephine's response as I honestly thought if anyone could explain it to the villagers it would be her. As you point out, the halla mean different things to each group. Even with Josephine explaining it, to the humans it’s just an empty gesture for the worst moment in their history. If anything the fact they took it as anything but an insult or rubbing salt in the reopened wound is a blessing. The Dalish should offer a gift that is meaningful or at least beneficial to the humans since the humans were the ones who were wronged. Yes. This is something we saw hinted at with the first Lavellan War Table mission: Leliana suggests giving the clan something they need. Do the humans need a halla? They seem to graze like normal deer so it's a fairly low maintenance animal. Unless its manure does wonders for the crops (and that would be an interesting lore bit) it seems more hollow than anything else.
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights
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Post by gervaise21 on Aug 26, 2021 17:12:52 GMT
"They" meaning the elves. The elves were given lands and then they decided to treat all humans the same. There is no evidence that they didn't get along just fine with their barbarian neighbours until Drakon came along. It is also interesting to note that Drakon wanted Ameridan to protect his lands from attack by the Hakkonites and their dragon but surely to get to Orlais they would have had to have crossed the entirety of the Dales if they came down the western side of the Frostbacks, so that should have been sufficient protection for southern Orlais. It would seem therefore that they feared the Hakkonites coming down the eastern side of the Frostbacks into human held territory. So apparently it wasn't just the Dalish that the lowlanders had to fear. There have been skirmishes between the Dalish and the Avvar down the years but not the degree of animosity that both hold for the rest of the humans. Could it be that they both despise empires? The elves were allied with Orlais until they broke the alliance. Since Ameridan uses the word "alliance", that's a very specific word with very specific meaning. As I say, that mention by Ameridan was the first time such an alliance had ever been mentioned anywhere, whether codices in game, the Core Rule Book or World of Thedas. Why would the Dalish have made an alliance with the Empire of Orlais when they regarded Drakon as "no better than Tevinter". At best I would say that Ameridan's faction made an alliance without the approval of the rest of the elves. Also remember Shartan's words in the Gauntlet: "But she was betrayed and so were we." The land was a gift to Shartan for his people, even though he did not live to see it. He died trying to rescue Andraste. Just as he and his elves had saved her at the Battle of the Valarian Fields. But for the elves there would have been no victory. Think of how many humans owe their freedom to the elves. There was a debt of honour there and the Dales was the gift that met it. Andraste fought for freedom and the barbarians of the south who enjoyed the result her efforts. It was Drakon of Tevinter heritage who did not and slaughtered the tribes who did not accept his rule. If anything it was the Dalish leaders, if they did make an alliance with Drakon, who truly broke faith with the human tribes of the south. People like Ameridan, who knew what Drakon's ambitions were and yet still supported him. Since Ameridan uses the word "alliance", that's a very specific word with very specific meaning. I don't think "they want the Dalish to look bad" is an excuse. When they introduce something totally new that has never previously been mentioned and have Cassandra makes excuses why Drakon never came looking for Ameridan that are not borne out by the timeline, it is clear it was done to make the Dalish look bad. Still it is obvious I won't change your mind on this. The writers efforts were successful; it is all the fault of the Dalish.
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Post by yarus on Aug 26, 2021 17:45:05 GMT
Also, look at the reaction of the two sides to the truth about Red Crossing. The Dalish at least tried to make some sort of peace offering as an apology for the past. Even our own advisors weren't happy about delivering this in the spirit in which it was given. “Sorry we massacred an entire town of innocent people, then invaded and did that to countless more. Here’s a deer (just for the first one btw).” God that wartable mission was stupid. The elves abandoning their neighbors to the blight in addition to the revelations of Red Crossing paint a far more realistic context for the Exalted March on the Dales. It's bizarre how quick some people are to infantilize the elves of that era as if they had no agency or did nothing wrong
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Post by duskwanderer on Aug 26, 2021 18:29:34 GMT
"They" meaning the elves. The elves were given lands and then they decided to treat all humans the same. There is no evidence that they didn't get along just fine with their barbarian neighbours until Drakon came along. It is also interesting to note that Drakon wanted Ameridan to protect his lands from attack by the Hakkonites and their dragon but surely to get to Orlais they would have had to have crossed the entirety of the Dales if they came down the western side of the Frostbacks, so that should have been sufficient protection for southern Orlais. It would seem therefore that they feared the Hakkonites coming down the eastern side of the Frostbacks into human held territory. So apparently it wasn't just the Dalish that the lowlanders had to fear. There have been skirmishes between the Dalish and the Avvar down the years but not the degree of animosity that both hold for the rest of the humans. Could it be that they both despise empires? The elves were allied with Orlais until they broke the alliance. Since Ameridan uses the word "alliance", that's a very specific word with very specific meaning. As I say, that mention by Ameridan was the first time such an alliance had ever been mentioned anywhere, whether codices in game, the Core Rule Book or World of Thedas. Why would the Dalish have made an alliance with the Empire of Orlais when they regarded Drakon as "no better than Tevinter". At best I would say that Ameridan's faction made an alliance without the approval of the rest of the elves. Also remember Shartan's words in the Gauntlet: "But she was betrayed and so were we." The land was a gift to Shartan for his people, even though he did not live to see it. He died trying to rescue Andraste. Just as he and his elves had saved her at the Battle of the Valarian Fields. But for the elves there would have been no victory. Think of how many humans owe their freedom to the elves. There was a debt of honour there and the Dales was the gift that met it. Andraste fought for freedom and the barbarians of the south who enjoyed the result her efforts. It was Drakon of Tevinter heritage who did not and slaughtered the tribes who did not accept his rule. If anything it was the Dalish leaders, if they did make an alliance with Drakon, who truly broke faith with the human tribes of the south. People like Ameridan, who knew what Drakon's ambitions were and yet still supported him. Since Ameridan uses the word "alliance", that's a very specific word with very specific meaning. I don't think "they want the Dalish to look bad" is an excuse. When they introduce something totally new that has never previously been mentioned and have Cassandra makes excuses why Drakon never came looking for Ameridan that are not borne out by the timeline, it is clear it was done to make the Dalish look bad. Still it is obvious I won't change your mind on this. The writers efforts were successful; it is all the fault of the Dalish. I've seen the map of Thedas. The only way the Hakkonites were going to invade Orlais was going to be right through the Dalelands. Drakkon's advice almost seems unnecessary. Are you trying to say the Hakkonites would've went east, towards the Ferelden lands. There's no country there: Ferelden wasn't founded in the Divine Age. Why would they? The reason is not relevant. They did, in fact, make the alliance. These was told to us by the echo spirits, and they don't really have a reason to lie. The image in the mountain is not actually Shartan. If it was, it would be deceiving, because Shartan died with Andraste and would have no knowledge of the Dales. Or just a ghost drawing on memories in the lyrium, as Oghren mentions. In which case, it would be nothing more than a false memory placed into it. We saw from Valta that memories can be erased. Your theories on Ameridan are merely theories. More evidence is needed to accept them. What excuse would that be? The second Blight? I don't know, I think hordes of darkspawn would take up your attention. I suggest that the Dalish not be absolved of their crimes. That's all.
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights
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Post by gervaise21 on Aug 26, 2021 20:12:36 GMT
The only way the Hakkonites were going to invade Orlais was going to be right through the Dalelands. Drakkon's advice almost seems unnecessary. Are you trying to say the Hakkonites would've went east, towards the Ferelden lands. There's no country there: Ferelden wasn't founded in the Divine Age. I will answer on this one. It never made sense that Ameridan was sent by Drakon because the Hakkonites were a threat to Orlais. Ameridan makes it clear he is doing this for Drakon. How about his own people? I agree the most likely route of the Hakkonites if their aim was to attack Orlais, would have been through the Dales. However, the Avvar normally seem to mount their attacks on the east side of the Frostbacks. The lowlanders there were always their target. There was a major offensive that had to be fought off during the 1st Blight. Why were the Hakkonites regarded as a threat to Orlais when the Avvar had never attacked in that direction before? Then the other problem with that whole story. If you fear an attack of such magnitude with a dragon at its head, why no follow up when Ameridan failed to return? Would you simply assume he had dealt with it? Surely you would want to check. Why did Drakon rely on a party of 4 adventurers? When we went to the Frostback Basin it was with a full contingent of support troops and auxiliaries, etc, and we were only undertaking an exploratory mission. We only discovered the real danger when we got there. Back in Ameridan's time they knew about the threat, presumably from agents in the area. Even if we leave aside the fact that apparently they didn't inform the Dalish, who were also under threat and might have wished to support Ameridan against it, it still makes no sense to me that lines of communication wouldn't have been established in order that Drakon could be kept informed of how things were progressing, so he could be assured that he wouldn't soon be fighting on two fronts. Instead there was no one and Telana died alone on the island. Darkspawn or no darkspawn, that seemed very remiss of Drakon. Also the narrative about the progress of the darkspawn did not match the timeline. Cassandra says the Dalish ignored the spread of the darkspawn after the disapperance of Ameridan but he didn't disappear until around 1:22 by which time the 2nd Blight had been going for some 18 years. Plenty of time for Ameridan to urge his compatriots to get involved, although I have pointed out previously there was every likelihood that if they were in southern Orlais, they were likely in the Dales as well. During this period Drakon apparently found the time to establish the Circle system and bring the old Inquisition under his Chantry control. So his attention wasn't entirely taken up with darkspawn. Ameridan is also told, either by Solas or Cassandra, that the reason Drakon didn't come looking for him was the threat of the darkspawn from the Anderfels. The Anderfels was first overrun and abandoned by Tevinter in 1:5. Drakon didn't seem that bothered by them until the darkspawn besieged Minrathous in 1:31 and whilst not taking it, the Imperium was considerably weakened. Only then did Drakon decide to march north in 1:33, turning aside to help the Grey Wardens in the Anderfels, although that hadn't been his original reason for going north, rather he did so to conquer more territory when Tevinter wasn't in a position to resist. (see the Core Rule Book for details about this). So at the time Ameridan went missing, things on the darkspawn front were relatively speaking under control. There was no excuse for Drakon not doing more to find out what had happened to his "friend".
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Buckeldemon on Aug 26, 2021 21:27:31 GMT
The whole war of the Dales started because some elves killed a human. That's why Orlais decalred war, yes, if one single individual is all it takes, the Din'Hanin codex states the death of at least a random elf beforehand for "coming too close" to humans. ... as opposed to, say, making funny movements towards an elven soldier who took it as an attempted attack and defended herself (and her fellows), to take a popular RL argument. In DAO it was definitely implied that the blame for the war was equally the responsibility of Orlais for trying to enforce their religion as it was the elves for resisting it.Can someone be really to blame for a war if they don't want to be converted? Or, in their mind, ethnocided again? The concept you are suggesting is "We can't trust the records because it comes from a human." But that's not enough. You need to provide a source that tells us more about what happened. 1. History is written by the winners. That can impact relieability.
2. "Muh innocent priests" Nice ignorance of the Dales having to content with foreign spec ops (i.e. templars) on their territory who are at best ridiculously arrogant and can justify everything with "Lol, Deus Vult!!!"? 3. Accusing someone else of cherry-picking is pretty rich coming from someone who constantly argues in a ridiculously aggressive way that we must not trust this elf, that mage or the other spirit. Sure, this elf, that mage or the other spirit don't help your case, but it is pretty ridiculous regardless.
I don't think "they want the Dalish to look bad" is an excuse Yeah, author choices are absolutely not a thing. Also, look at the reaction of the two sides to the truth about Red Crossing. The Dalish at least tried to make some sort of peace offering as an apology for the past. Even our own advisors weren't happy about delivering this in the spirit in which it was given. “Sorry we massacred an entire town of innocent people, then invaded and did that to countless more. Here’s a deer (just for the first one btw).” "Sorry-but-not-actually-sorry we were trying to genocide you heretic heathens back in the day and have almost completely ethnocided you. Would you now kindly bow down and praise the Maker?" I mean, you are at times quick to judge people for some comments. What should be my takeaway from that? That Hanako does in fact not mind at least cultural genocide under specific circumstances?
“Sorry we massacred an entire town of innocent people, then invaded and did that to countless more. Here’s a deer (just for the first one btw).” I'll give the Dalish credit for the offering, it's more than I would expect from them. It would make an interesting story to hear what Red Crossing says about it. But it's not enough for what the Dalish did wrong. Which Red Crossing? The modern one? I mean, by this standard, you can justify almost everything. Perhaps even Velanna. I mean, what would be enough? Except for completed genocide or at least ethnocide, of course. That is why I wondered if the distinction drawn was that Lavellan is Dalish as opposed to a city elf. He does seem to have a far more sympathetic attitude towards the city elves so may be, if they are not Sera, he does see some possibility of restoration for them. I mean, if I were to make a bad-faith or simply tinfoil-hat guess, it is because City elves are touted as "faithful andrastians". Baldy seems to be far more partial towards Andrastianism than towards literally anything else, though I don't remember his reactions to the Avvar spirit veneration well. You have to see it in the context of what the halla mean to the Dalish. They think it is a highly symbolic gift of good faith. What they don't appreciate is that most humans have no idea about Dalish culture, so wouldn't see it in the same light. In a way, it is not so much hilarious as tragic for the lack of understanding on both sides. Which is why, as a Dalish, I was particularly disappointed with Josephine's response as I honestly thought if anyone could explain it to the villagers it would be her. As you point out, the halla mean different things to each group. Even with Josephine explaining it, to the humans it’s just an empty gesture for the worst moment in their history. If anything the fact they took it as anything but an insult or rubbing salt in the reopened wound is a blessing. The Dalish should offer a gift that is meaningful or at least beneficial to the humans since the humans were the ones who were wronged. Well, what do you think is the only "gift" andrastians would ever collectively accept? Come on, you are not that (deliberately) ignorant, unlike that troll over there. Do the humans need a halla? They seem to graze like normal deer so it's a fairly low maintenance animal. Unless its manure does wonders for the crops (and that would be an interesting lore bit) it seems more hollow than anything else. Hah, that's so tone-deaf. Humans also don't need Chantries (both building and organisation) or an urn with the supposed ash of the prophet in it. Every damn medieval farmer whose livelyhood depends on their single cow could see the meaning of handing over such an animal to an extent. I suggest that the Dalish not be absolved of their crimes. That's all. Apart from the double standard, I got the impression that most people fielding this particular argument really just mean "Lol, murder them all! Kek, soooo based!" ---
Yeah, the double standard is kinda really funny. "Choice and responsibility" only ever seems to apply to people which the proponents of "choice and responsibility" don't like, or simply those who dare not to be fantasy Christians. I.e. a very convoluted way to justify a degree of victim-blaming.
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Post by duskwanderer on Aug 26, 2021 22:17:55 GMT
The only way the Hakkonites were going to invade Orlais was going to be right through the Dalelands. Drakkon's advice almost seems unnecessary. Are you trying to say the Hakkonites would've went east, towards the Ferelden lands. There's no country there: Ferelden wasn't founded in the Divine Age. I will answer on this one. It never made sense that Ameridan was sent by Drakon because the Hakkonites were a threat to Orlais. Ameridan makes it clear he is doing this for Drakon. How about his own people? I agree the most likely route of the Hakkonites if their aim was to attack Orlais, would have been through the Dales. However, the Avvar normally seem to mount their attacks on the east side of the Frostbacks. The lowlanders there were always their target. There was a major offensive that had to be fought off during the 1st Blight. Why were the Hakkonites regarded as a threat to Orlais when the Avvar had never attacked in that direction before? Then the other problem with that whole story. If you fear an attack of such magnitude with a dragon at its head, why no follow up when Ameridan failed to return? Would you simply assume he had dealt with it? Surely you would want to check. Why did Drakon rely on a party of 4 adventurers? When we went to the Frostback Basin it was with a full contingent of support troops and auxiliaries, etc, and we were only undertaking an exploratory mission. We only discovered the real danger when we got there. Back in Ameridan's time they knew about the threat, presumably from agents in the area. Even if we leave aside the fact that apparently they didn't inform the Dalish, who were also under threat and might have wished to support Ameridan against it, it still makes no sense to me that lines of communication wouldn't have been established in order that Drakon could be kept informed of how things were progressing, so he could be assured that he wouldn't soon be fighting on two fronts. Instead there was no one and Telana died alone on the island. Darkspawn or no darkspawn, that seemed very remiss of Drakon. Also the narrative about the progress of the darkspawn did not match the timeline. Cassandra says the Dalish ignored the spread of the darkspawn after the disapperance of Ameridan but he didn't disappear until around 1:22 by which time the 2nd Blight had been going for some 18 years. Plenty of time for Ameridan to urge his compatriots to get involved, although I have pointed out previously there was every likelihood that if they were in southern Orlais, they were likely in the Dales as well. During this period Drakon apparently found the time to establish the Circle system and bring the old Inquisition under his Chantry control. So his attention wasn't entirely taken up with darkspawn. Ameridan is also told, either by Solas or Cassandra, that the reason Drakon didn't come looking for him was the threat of the darkspawn from the Anderfels. The Anderfels was first overrun and abandoned by Tevinter in 1:5. Drakon didn't seem that bothered by them until the darkspawn besieged Minrathous in 1:31 and whilst not taking it, the Imperium was considerably weakened. Only then did Drakon decide to march north in 1:33, turning aside to help the Grey Wardens in the Anderfels, although that hadn't been his original reason for going north, rather he did so to conquer more territory when Tevinter wasn't in a position to resist. (see the Core Rule Book for details about this). So at the time Ameridan went missing, things on the darkspawn front were relatively speaking under control. There was no excuse for Drakon not doing more to find out what had happened to his "friend". Orlais was the country very close to the Hakkonites. There is no mention of whether or not they would do anything to the elves, but given Hakkon's bloodthirsty nature, it stands to reason it would've killed the elves too. Perhaps Orlais was a more prestigious target: Hakkon seems to crave glory in battle. The reason the Hakkonites were considered such a threat is because they had a high dragon (or at least, what looked like one). Those are very dangerous. Not only was Ameridan a well known dragon slayer, but there was no movement from the dragon or the Hakkonites. Given that Orlais found Hakkon in the first place, they can easily find the absence. Quite simply, it seems to be a matter of looking like Ameridan killed the beast. Further, I'm noticing a lot of inexact language in your words. When precisely did Ameridan disappear. Further, it's abundantly clear that Halamshiral was ignoring the darkspawn before Ameridan disappeared, otherwise, he wouldn't have been talking about it. Further, your timeline is off. Drakon fought the darkspawn as early as 1:16 Divine in Cumberland. Are you using the RPG Book? That source is only considered semi-canon. The elves refused to assist when Monsimmard was destroyed in 1:23. That lines up with Ameridan's disappearance.
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Post by xerrai on Aug 26, 2021 23:04:59 GMT
Ameridan confirms that the elves had an alliance with Drakon that they chose not to honor. They never explained that one. On the one hand he says they think Drakon is "no better than Tevinter". On the other, he maintains they had an alliance with him. What alliance? There had never been any suggestion of that before, even by the Chantry. If they had actually had an alliance with Drakon, wouldn't the Chantry have used that as yet more propaganda against the Dalish? Yet, there was nothing until Ameridan mentions it in JoH. Was the alliance some sort of agreement they came to so the Dalish would continue to ignore human affairs and not ally with Drakon's rivals when he was going around killing them? Again, the lack of any suggestion of this prior to JoH seems to be another example of ignoring previous lack of information to paint the Dalish in the worst possible light. I personally theorize that the alliance was just with a subset of the elves, particularly those who resided in the Halamshiral area since Ameridian references it as his home and the place where he (or Telana) needs to return to to remind their people of the alliance in question. But note that we only hear of the Dales having nobles and priests in terms of its higher classes. That's it. I can't find any mention of a King, elected leader, or even a ruling council that performs a similar purpose. It didn't seem like a total theocracy either given that Ameridian apparently had a leadership position of some sort despite being a believer of Maker and leader of the transnational Inquisition. The Emerald Knights didn't seem all that interested in ruling either so they're out. But if we assume the nobles and priests were all the nation had, I can see the nation having the equivalent of an Allsmeet or Landsmeet where all local rulers of the realm are brought together for matter of great importance. A proto-Arlathven if you will. And it would make sense that they would meet at Halamshiral too given its historic and cultural significance. In which case, whatever alliance the Halamshiral elves forged with Orlais would haver never amounted to much unless they got the other, more xenophobic, elves on board. It would have been like having an alliance with the Arling of Denerim but not having an alliance with Ferelden as a nation despite the former being the capital of said nation. Getting the other elves to agree to a total alliance with any human nation would have been a difficult task due to mistrust, but trying to get them to ally with Orlais? I know Ameridian vouches for the guy, but I can't exactly blame anyone frankly for not allying with a nation known for its expansionism and religious culling. (Also, to everyone saying the halla is worthless as a gift. I disagree. Just chop off the horns and sell it to a noble. They are well established to be worth a fortune. If those horns are capable of regrowing then the elves just gave the humans a great money maker. If the horns don't regrow then just keep the animal for its milk. That can be an special regional good, can it not? Or the humans can, y'know...just kill it and sell the parts. It would be disrespectful to the Dalish, sure, but the halla isn't completely worthless is all I'm saying.)
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Post by gervaise21 on Aug 27, 2021 8:29:06 GMT
Further, your timeline is off. Drakon fought the darkspawn as early as 1:16 Divine in Cumberland. No, I am perfectly aware of this date. Clearly he dealt with the threat in Cumberland and the rest of Orlais for that matter, because by 9:20 he was able to concentrate on setting up the Circles and bringing the Inquisition under his wing. If you look back at the timeline of the 2nd Blight I outlined in my post above, I point out that the blight had started in 1:5. It would also seem that the main concentration of darkspawn was up in Tevinter, with outliers in the south. A bit like how in the 4th Blight the main concentration was in Antiva and the Freemarches, with outliers in the Anderfels. Once the latter were dealt with, apparently by the simple expedient of closing off their exist point from the Deep Roads, Garahel and friends were able to refocus back on the Arch-demon in Antiva. In the 2nd Blight, Zazikel emerged in the Anderfels and most of the action seemed focused on the west side of Tevinter, although eventually it would seem the Arch-demon did move south as he ended up being killed at Starkhaven but this wasn't until 1:95. The pattern would seem to be the main darkspawn force circulating around the Arch-demon, with other outflows being from the Deep Roads. If these outliers are dealt with, life goes on pretty much as before, including being able to grow crops to keep people fed. Otherwise, if the darkspawn horde were moving across the face of Thedas like a plague of locusts, it would soon result in a general wasteland where nothing would grow and everyone starved. The elves refused to assist when Monsimmard was destroyed in 1:23. No, the elves were seen to be looking on when Montsimmard was destroyed in 1:25. This was some 3 years after Ameridan disappeared, plenty of time for Drakon to send out a search party. Also, as I outline above, this was not the case of the main darkspawn army marching across Orlais, which would be easy to track, but likely an outlier group coming up from the Deep Roads. This would have caught everyone unawares and presumably explains why Drakon couldn't mobilise his forces in time to save the city. However, I repeat, the original narrative was not that the "elves did nothing" as stated in the timeline (written by a Chantry scholar so would definitely be biased in their interpretation of what was happening on the ground). Also, I note the timeline only says "nearly destroyed" and also that Montsimmard is a "nearby city" to the Dales. Now the writers have never been much good with distances and have never given a scale by which we can determine the exact size of Thedas and the distances between places. However, even a cursory look at the map shows that Halamshiral is at least as far from Montsimmard as Val Royeaux, which is where the respective leadership of the two nations were based. Lydes and Verchiel are human cities that have been established since the fall of the Dales but Val Foret and Val Firmin, assuming by their names that they are older cities contemporary with Val Royeaux, were much closer and so it might be reasonable for the elves to assume they would deal with the problem. However, let's assume a message was sent to Halamshiral asking for assistance, they would need to gather together a large enough force to make a difference before setting out. It is entirely possible, therefore, that by the time they got there it was already too late. Which was the account of the event originally in DAO I believe but definitely in the Core Rule Book, where the elves were said to look on as Montsimmard was overrun by darkspawn. That seems consistent with an elven army arriving too late to do any good, other than holding the line and halting the spread of the darkspawn eastwards. Montsimmard is far enough outside the Dales that the elves could only be there if they had traveled specifically with regard to the darkspawn. So the elves did try to do something. I assume this is the difference between an eye witness account and the spin that the Chantry chose to put on it, probably around the time of the Exalted March on the Dales, when they started altering records and even pictures to diminish the idea the elves had ever been allies. This might explain why the record of an alliance between Drakon and the elves was expunged from the records, although it still seems to me it would have made better propaganda to show the elves had broken it. Nevertheless, that is a convenient explanation for the writers to justify introducing new information that makes the Dalish seem wholly the villains rather than the more balanced viewpoint that had existed previously in the stories and codices we were given, particularly those written by individuals unconnected with the Chantry. Please note a scholar of the university of Orlais, a secular organisation that is independent of Chantry influence, had a rather different viewpoint. This was found in a codex in DAI in the Emerald Graves. This actually does present a more nuanced view of the whole issue. I note he still subscribes to the idea that the Dalish did nothing to help with Montsimmard but apparently sees that as insufficient justification for what followed. He also points out that, regardless what we found out about Red Crossing, at the time of the Exalted March, no one apparently new precisely what happened. Does what we discover in the Knights' Tomb entirely rule out his idea of deliberate provocation. After all, the Emerald Knights who give the account would not know what was going on behind the scenes in the human settlement and this is the nation of the Great Game: The Chantry's story of the Exalted March of the Dales paints the picture of the righteous faithful arrayed against heathen savages. But I have long studied the Dales, and I find the "acceptable" version of the tale to be a poor one, laden with overt pro-Chantry and pro-human biases. Thus it is my moral imperative to propose an alternate interpretation: that the Exalted March of the Dales was nothing more than an expansionist ploy hiding behind the mask of faith.
It is easy to see on any map how large the Dales are. More importantly, they stand between Orlais and the rest of the south and would likely have represented a significant obstacle to the empire's expansion into Ferelden. Naturally, we stood to benefit from propagating the narrative of a hostile, unreasoning people attacking innocent missionaries and making blood sacrifices of good Andrastian babies. The likely truth is that the elves merely wished to maintain sovereignty over lands promised to them by Blessed Andraste herself, when the humans showed clear intent to undermine their autonomy.
Of course, the elves reacted by becoming increasingly isolationist, which suited the empire perfectly. Here was a kingdom that spurned diplomatic overtures and that refused to lend aid during the Second Blight when the darkspawn attacked Montsimmard. The Dalish kingdom could not be anything but a dormant threat, one that needed to be crushed before it awoke.
Scholars point to the massacre at Red Crossing as the impetus for the Chantry's declaration of an Exalted March on the elven kingdom in the Dales. They conveniently ignore the fact that no one alive truly knows what happened at Red Crossing or why the elves attacked. The Chantry's response to the elven aggression that resulted in the slaughter of hundreds was predictable. But in light of my thesis, perhaps we should reexamine the events of Red Crossing and wonder if the attack was truly unprovoked. Or whether it is possible that someone saw benefit in sacrificing an entire village to justify the subjugation of an entire people.—From A New Perspective on the Exalted March, a pamphlet by an anonymous author, published by the University of Orlais in 9:12 Dragon. If the Dalish account of the events of Red Crossing and the account in JoH was meant to completely negate the ideas given here, why bother even introducing an alternative viewpoint? Anyway, I definitely think that this thesis explains why the elves were rounded up en mass and removed from the Dales. The Exalted March didn't just subjugate the elves in the Dales, it removed their presence entirely. Also note that Giselle points out that technically it was not an "Exalted March" because only Orlais took part and were the sole beneficiaries of the land grab.
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Post by gervaise21 on Aug 27, 2021 9:22:17 GMT
Getting the other elves to agree to a total alliance with any human nation would have been a difficult task due to mistrust, but trying to get them to ally with Orlais? I know Ameridian vouches for the guy, but I can't exactly blame anyone frankly for not allying with a nation known for its expansionism and religious culling. I think your take on the subject makes a lot of sense. It is really what I have been arguing in saying I find it hard to believe that the entirety of elves of the Dales made an alliance with Drakon. I always found it somewhat odd that so soon after establishing the Dales they had established noble houses, from whom the nomadic Dalish claim descent. At the very least it would seem these self styled nobles were making decisions independent of the rest of the community. Note, it was the families of the Emerald Knights, the people who started the war, who fled to safety as the Dalish, whilst the rest of the "commoner" elves were left to their fate. To be fair, the Dalish may have thought that would save the ordinary elves from reprisals and allow them to continue to live on the land, may be with the possibility of the Emerald Knights returning to lead them once they had recovered their strength. Orlais anticipated this and I assume that is what lay behind removing all the elves from the Dales. In Masked Empire it is hinted that Celene and the other nobles did see the Dalish as a threat to their rule until she discovered how small their numbers truly are. I've often wondered about exactly who authorised the Emerald Knights. Originally it seemed they were just a group of elves who banded together to protect the Dales. Then we get more information and it seems they specifically saw themselves as the nobility of the elves who performed a similar function to the nobility in Ferelden. The Dalish claim to descend from nobility as embodied in the families of the Emerald Knights who fled the Dales after the defeat of their army, along with the priesthood who were the spiritual leaders. There is also a codex that says there was a branch of the Emerald Knights called the Fade Hunters, who were specifically responsible for dealing with demons and magical threats. That sounds like what Ameridan was doing prior to enlisting with the Inquisition at Ameridan's request in order to bring them into Chantry control. So reading between the lines, Ameridan was an Emerald Knight and thus one of the self-styled nobles of the Dales. He formed a friendship with Drakon and as a result encouraged his faction of nobles to agree to an alliance with Orlais. As a result, Drakon encouraged the Divine to find out all she could about Shartan, who up to then had not featured much in the human history of Andraste, resulting in the inclusion of the Canticle of Shartan in the Chant. This meant that Ameridan and his allies felt comfortable with introducing a form of worship that combined Andrastrianism with that of the elves. Meanwhile, another faction of hard line Emerald Knights disapproved and felt that Ameridan was doing deals with the devil, metaphorically speaking, since they were well aware of what Drakon had done to the surrounding barbarian tribes who refused to tow the line. They may even have heard of Drakon's lineage and thus his empire was in some ways just an extension of Tevinter, albeit without authorised slavery. Nevertheless, they probably foresaw that no matter what Ameridan might maintain, eventually Drakon or his successors would start encroaching on the elven independence. It is possible that Drakon himself was wise enough not to force the matter of religious conformity immediately because he couldn't afford a conflict with the elves in the middle of a blight. However, even Ameridan admits that Drakon wanted to "simplify" things with regard to religion and has ideas for his empire to expand far beyond the borders of Orlais. May be that is why he encouraged the alliance because he foresaw the elves would be incapable of withstanding them. What I find is a pity is that it is possible to read a lot more into what was going on and develop various theories as to exactly what the situation was in the Dales at that time. However, the writers did seem to start favouring one narrative over all the others, which placed the Dalish in a non favourable light and pretty much endorsed the Chantry version of history. I could be wrong but I feel this is likely the influence of PW, since the anti-Dalish standpoint was first cultivated in Masked Empire, he wrote Solas and he is now the lead writer of the franchise, which was the case for the DAI DLC. The narrative currently and the one which many players seem to favour is that the elven gods were slave keeping tyrants, the nobles who supported them were little better and so anyone who claims descent from them or allegiance to the gods, deserves everything they get. Solas, once a rebel against them and so good, now plans widespread destruction for the sake of "his People", whoever they might be but elves of some sort, so he is also bad. Therefore support of elves as a group of people trying to be independent of a civilisation with religious and cultural values they do not hold is also bad. Ergo elves deserve everything that happens to them unless they have rejected everything that makes them unique, integrate with the human world and likely end up with their race dying out altogether. I really hope I'm wrong about this.
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Post by duskwanderer on Aug 27, 2021 11:46:17 GMT
Your response is again, full of theory and wishcasting. Drakon is known to have rallied troops to fight the darkspawn. Further, Drakon spend his early time navigating the fallout of his decision to use the Circles against the darkspawn. Then, the Nevarran accords happened in 1:20 (I think you've got the calendar wrong). Ameridan then disappeared in 1:22 (or thereabouts) leaving the elves to abandon Orlais and not assist in Monstimmard. Again, you're describing a theory.
Further, it's not truly relevant if the horde was the main aspect of darkspawn or merely a raiding party. They abandoned Monstimmard and the humans inside to be slaughtered.
This is the problem: You've come up with your own theory and say everyone else is wrong because they are biased and will make things up. However, you have nothing of your own to back it up. Even the source you claim to use admits to theory. Either provide some objective evidence or admit you don't have any.
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Post by gervaise21 on Aug 27, 2021 12:38:21 GMT
Further, it's not truly relevant if the horde was the main aspect of darkspawn or merely a raiding party. They abandoned Monstimmard and the humans inside to be slaughtered. You are just as much following a theory as I am. If an elven army was seen on the outskirts of Montsimmard as the city was overrun, that suggests they had gone to help but arrived too late to do any good. If no elves appeared at all, did they even know that Montsimmard was in need of help? If a message was sent asking for help, may be they just took too long in mobilising a force to do any good. Just because they told Ameridan they were reluctant to involve themselves with helping Drakon's empire, doesn't necessarily mean they didn't when darkspawn emerged near their own country. In fact it would have been rather foolish to ignore the threat entirely and not send an army to at least defend their own borders from the darkspawn. Unless someone produces an actual message that the elves sent back saying "Get stuffed", then my view of the situation is just as valid as that of the Chantry. You cannot be said to abandon someone if you weren't there or were not aware they needed help. I would mention that there is no suggestion that any of the adjoining human nations/regions sent any help either. As I've pointed out, there were regions and cities of Orlais that were actually much closer to Montsimmard. Why wouldn't the elves assume they would be dealing with it? Let's face it, the number of humans in the region would have been vastly greater than the total elven inhabitants of the Dales and not all the elves would be combatants. There is no suggestion of a standing elven army, just the Emerald Knights who had the responsibility of guarding the entire border. That would have left them spread pretty thin and it would have taken time to recall and deploy them in one particular location in sufficient numbers to make any difference. The Dalish weren't occupying Montsimmard at the time. To have retreated and left the humans to be slaughtered would have been abandoning them, just as Tevinter did the Anderfels at the beginning of the Blight. Tevinter did this because they felt their priority should be protecting their own citizens. This tended to be the attitude of every nation during a Blight, unless they saw some benefit in helping their neighbours, such as annexing their country, as both Orlais and Tevinter were guilty of in the 3rd Blight. In the 4th Blight the Grey Wardens had to threaten Starkhaven into accepting refugees from cities in the eastern Freemarches and Antiva. Orlais and Tevinter declined to send any forces to help. So solidarity between human nations is non existent during a blight. Why should the elves be condemned for acting in exactly the same way? Then, the Nevarran accords happened in 1:20 (I think you've got the calendar wrong). Ameridan then disappeared in 1:22 (or thereabouts) leaving the elves to abandon Orlais and not assist in Monstimmard. Again, you're describing a theory. No, I used that date (check my post). 1:20 Nevarran Accord. 1:21/22 Ameridan disappears. 1:25 Montsimmard falls. 1:33 Drakon marches north. I repeat, Drakon was in Orlais at the time. Why didn't the rest of Orlais do more to help Montsimmard?
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Post by duskwanderer on Aug 27, 2021 14:55:46 GMT
I am taking my source from the historical evidence presented: The elves did not assist with Monsimmard. You can state that the source is biased if you wish, but you need to provide another historical source. And you also need to prove that the source isn't biased itself.
Suggestions are not fact. We saw how Loghain stood by and watched as Calian was killed.
The difference between mine and yours is mine is backed up by the historical notes. Yours is just a theory.
If I'm going to use your logic, the fact that the elves were going to Monsimmard proves that they were going there for a reason. To liberate it? Remember, darkspawn are not subtle. If they are on the march, it's easy to figure it out.
You're also trying to excuse the elves by saying humans did the same things (later) to other humans. But that is irrelevant. We're discussing the elves and their actions during the Second Blight following Ameridan's disappearance. That's it.
And I'm correct about what I'm saying: The Circles were established before the Nevarran Accords (1:20), because otherwise, Drakon wouldn't be able to use them against the darkspawn in the battles leading up to Cumberland (before 1:16).
Orlais was dealing with darkspawn at the time, they marched towards Nevarra and the Free Marches, which is where Cumberland was. They were dealing with the darkspawn. They probably trusted their allies, the elves, to assist in Monsimmard, since they were going there. They didn't, the elves betrayed the humans. And despite that, the elves were given another chance, after all, the Exalted March didn't happen until after the elves attacked the humans again during the Glory Age.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Aug 27, 2021 15:06:40 GMT
I overheard an interesting conversation earlier today between two women of my acquaintance, who happen to be studying the Classics together and specifically they discussed Cleopatra and Antony, and how historical documents of the time, which all happen to be written by men (specifically Roman men) uniformly paint Cleopatra as a manipulative seductress who is to blame for all of Antony's poor decisions, and how history professors continue to teach this version of events entirely uncritically, even though if these things were to be said about a female leader today, they would be widely recognised as sexist propaganda.
The reason I relay this anecdote is because it illustrates that primary historical sources are not actually unfiltered fountains of objective truth, and are in fact riddled with bias, and only get regarded as "truth" because alternative accounts, for various reasons such as war, disasters, natural decay, etc, were destroyed, or might never have got written, because societies in the past limited who was allowed to read or write.
We all know this, of course, because we have sayings like "history is written by the winners", or "history is written by the powerful", but then we get into a debate about the fictional history of a video game world and every one forgets that it would be pretty hard for elves to produce dissenting historical records after humans razed their city to the ground and scattered their culture to the four winds.
In case it wasn't clear, this is all a round-about way of saying that, whether they ultimately prove true or not, Gervaise's speculations are entirely valid, and the argument that in-game accounts favour humans is easily explained by the fact that it was in-game humans who wrote them, and challenging Gervaise to find conflicting, "non-biased" sources is ridiculous and pointless when we all know BioWare has deliberately not written any, and that even if Gervaise found such evidence, the goalposts would miraculously shift of their own accord, and that evidence would no longer prove sufficient.
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Post by duskwanderer on Aug 27, 2021 15:26:01 GMT
"It's valid even if it's not true" is no truth.
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