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Post by blah23 on Jan 3, 2023 12:43:08 GMT
I don't care how many LGBTQABCXYZ+ characters they made as long as they have more personality than just the gender they identify. Modern western storytelling these days only put emphasis on gender and skin color of a character as a mere shield to criticism. Except it doesn't really succeed in shielding from cricitism does it? Movies, series and games without representation can easily fly below the radar. As soon as there is one transgender character, it invites a lot of backlash for being about identity politics or whatever. Of course this varies by genre, with science fiction and fantasy probably having a much larger non-cishet audience than, say, a detective series or a hospital drama show, so they're going to have more representation. Shows and films with LGBTQ characters that don't appeal to straight white males (e.g. Grey's Anatomy) tend to be well received without backlash. Even when it's done well and the gender, sexuality or skin color are not the sole basis for a character, someone is going to complain. I believe that just like with poc characters, in a few decades few people will notice anymore because it's become normal to see minorities represented everywhere. But it is, for example live-action Little Mermaid whose mc got a race swap treatment from white to black for the sake of creating fake outrage and accuse anyone who dare criticise it as a bigot or racist.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jan 3, 2023 15:58:35 GMT
Except it doesn't really succeed in shielding from cricitism does it? Movies, series and games without representation can easily fly below the radar. As soon as there is one transgender character, it invites a lot of backlash for being about identity politics or whatever. Of course this varies by genre, with science fiction and fantasy probably having a much larger non-cishet audience than, say, a detective series or a hospital drama show, so they're going to have more representation. Shows and films with LGBTQ characters that don't appeal to straight white males (e.g. Grey's Anatomy) tend to be well received without backlash. Even when it's done well and the gender, sexuality or skin color are not the sole basis for a character, someone is going to complain. I believe that just like with poc characters, in a few decades few people will notice anymore because it's become normal to see minorities represented everywhere. But it is, for example live-action Little Mermaid whose mc got a race swap treatment from white to black for the sake of creating fake outrage and accuse anyone who dare criticise it as a bigot or racist. Or the actress was just the best choice in the director’s mind.
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Post by General Mahad on Jan 3, 2023 21:45:18 GMT
Personally, I would appreciate it if Mass Effect focused more on the SCIENCE part of science fiction rather than trying to water everything down and make it a human world filled with humans and humans in rubber masks. Aliens that are alien. A narrative focused more on exploration and discovery and less on romance options with “young” and “plucky” characters. Not to say that romance and character exploration should be completely ignored but it would be nice to have a Mass Effect that was more ‘The Expanse’ or ‘The Arrival’ and less ‘The Citadel’ or Independence Day Resurgence’. This reminds me of Star Trek in a way.
Started off as an idealistic utopia of professional characters exploring and solving disputes/scientific quandaries with little action to a soulless nihilistic universe of angry blank slates engaged in nonstop violence and pandering that appeals to the lowest common denominator.
That being said, Strange New Worlds is Star Trek going back to its roots and its pretty good. Looks like the show runners decided to take a step back and embrace the 'smaller' episodic stories rather than focus all their energy on the big bad.
Can BioWare go back to its roots with Mass Effect? History tells me no, they tried with Andromeda and that was a failure.
I expect more low brow Sci-Fi, soap opera drama, annoying quirky characters, mindless action and nonstop pandering.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Gileadan on Jan 3, 2023 21:50:54 GMT
But it is, for example live-action Little Mermaid whose mc got a race swap treatment from white to black for the sake of creating fake outrage and accuse anyone who dare criticise it as a bigot or racist. Or the actress was just the best choice in the director’s mind. Maybe, but even those in favour of her casting were constantly talking about representation and how important it was that a black actress portrayed Arielle. And who knows, she might be awesome in the role, yet I think we all know why she was picked. It would have been a trivial effort to find a white actress with more experience. In the end, the producers or director or whoever does the casting can pick whoever they want. It's Disney's Little Mermaid after all, not Hans Christian Andersen's Little Mermaid.
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Post by blah23 on Jan 3, 2023 22:10:34 GMT
But it is, for example live-action Little Mermaid whose mc got a race swap treatment from white to black for the sake of creating fake outrage and accuse anyone who dare criticise it as a bigot or racist. Or the actress was just the best choice in the director’s mind. Or making Master Chief helmetless, Star Wars for turning Luke Skywalker from an idealistic Jedi into a cynical loser who runs away from his responsibilities, Bobba Fett reducing into a joke of character in his own show or TLOU part II showing a trailer about Joel being the protagonist but his role was reduced in the actual game to subvert the fans expectations and start accusing anyone as a bigot or racist pointing it out.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jan 3, 2023 22:36:08 GMT
Or the actress was just the best choice in the director’s mind. Or making Master Chief helmetless, Star Wars for turning Luke Skywalker from an idealistic Jedi into a cynical loser who runs away from his responsibilities, Bobba Fett reducing into a joke of character in his own show or TLOU part II showing a trailer about Joel being the protagonist but his role was reduced in the actual game to subvert the fans expectations and start accusing anyone as a bigot or racist pointing it out. Um, what do these have to do with what’s being discussed?
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Post by General Mahad on Jan 3, 2023 22:43:39 GMT
Or the actress was just the best choice in the director’s mind. Maybe, but even those in favour of her casting were constantly talking about representation and how important it was that a black actress portrayed Arielle. And who knows, she might be awesome in the role, yet I think we all know why she was picked. It would have been a trivial effort to find a white actress with more experience. In the end, the producers or director or whoever does the casting can pick whoever they want. It's Disney's Little Mermaid after all, not Hans Christian Andersen's Little Mermaid. Its obvious bait.
Studios have been using this technique to get white knights to rally and trolls to hate watch. That being said, this year is where Hollywood went too hard with their representation shtick and that's why good ol' fashion action movies like Top Gun and Avatar 2 won big while their grift hits failed this year.
Oh yeah, a deal breaker for me is encountering a brand new organic alien race and they can perfectly communicate with each other as well as understand each other off the bat. Star Trek had a brilliant episode where where they had an extremely reclusive alien race that was basically speaking bible verses and Picard had to work together with his alien counterpart in order to understand each other to combat the greater danger to both of them. The first encounter with the cat people is irritating beyond belief, I can't believe that Halo of all things managed to make first contact more believable/impactful than Andromeda did with the Angara.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jan 3, 2023 23:02:29 GMT
Oh yeah, a deal breaker for me is encountering a brand new organic alien race and they can perfectly communicate with each other as well as understand each other off the bat. Star Trek had a brilliant episode where where they had an extremely reclusive alien race that was basically speaking bible verses and Picard had to work together with his alien counterpart in order to understand each other to combat the greater danger to both of them. The first encounter with the cat people is irritating beyond belief, I can't believe that Halo of all things managed to make first contact more believable/impactful than Andromeda did with the Angara.
You mean the same encounter where at first we don't understand what they are saying until the AI in our heads, one built with specifically things like this in mind, helped translate?
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Post by blah23 on Jan 3, 2023 23:04:03 GMT
Or making Master Chief helmetless, Star Wars for turning Luke Skywalker from an idealistic Jedi into a cynical loser who runs away from his responsibilities, Bobba Fett reducing into a joke of character in his own show or TLOU part II showing a trailer about Joel being the protagonist but his role was reduced in the actual game to subvert the fans expectations and start accusing anyone as a bigot or racist pointing it out. Um, what do these have to do with what’s being discussed? It's all about how fan baiting works, bro. I just don't want Bioware to pull this kind of stunt in the future of prioritising ideological preaching over good storytelling that Hollywood is doing right now.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jan 3, 2023 23:04:53 GMT
Um, what do these have to do with what’s being discussed? It's all about how fan baiting works, bro. I just don't want Bioware to pull this kind of stunt in the future of prioritising ideological preaching over good storytelling that Hollywood is doing right now. Still waiting on you to provide examples of Bioware ever doing that. None of your non-BW examples do that either.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jan 3, 2023 23:09:08 GMT
And who knows, she might be awesome in the role, yet I think we all know why she was picked. It would have been a trivial effort to find a white actress with more experience. For the reason you just stated: because in the creator's mind she is awesome in the role. Like you said, it's their version of the story to tell. Why should they find a white actress when they already found one they see as good enough?
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Post by blah23 on Jan 3, 2023 23:09:20 GMT
It's all about how fan baiting works, bro. I just don't want Bioware to pull this kind of stunt in the future of prioritising ideological preaching over good storytelling that Hollywood is doing right now. Still waiting on you to provide examples of Bioware ever doing that. Bioware for most part hasn't any fan baiting but they are notorious for over promising the fans about choices mattered in ME3 for example and crybully for not delivering said promise.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jan 3, 2023 23:11:59 GMT
Still waiting on you to provide examples of Bioware ever doing that. Bioware for most part hasn't any fan baiting but they are notorious for over promising the fans about choices mattered in ME3 for example and crybully for not delivering said promise. Your choices in ME3 did matter. People and entire races could be alive or dead based on your choices, let alone how the galaxy will look after the war. Them going back to the Milky Way and seemingly making a canon state for things is the first time the choices no longer really matter. Also what does crybully mean?
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Post by blah23 on Jan 3, 2023 23:16:06 GMT
Bioware for most part hasn't any fan baiting but they are notorious for over promising the fans about choices mattered in ME3 for example and crybully for not delivering said promise. Your choices in ME3 did matter. People and entire races could be alive or dead based on your choices, let alone how the galaxy will look after the war. Them going back to the Milky Way and seemingly making a canon state for things is the first time the choices no longer really matter. Also what does crybully mean? crybully (plural crybullies) (derogatory) A person who engages in intimidation, harassment, or other abusive behaviour while claiming to be a victim.
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Post by General Mahad on Jan 3, 2023 23:30:19 GMT
Oh yeah, a deal breaker for me is encountering a brand new organic alien race and they can perfectly communicate with each other as well as understand each other off the bat. Star Trek had a brilliant episode where where they had an extremely reclusive alien race that was basically speaking bible verses and Picard had to work together with his alien counterpart in order to understand each other to combat the greater danger to both of them. The first encounter with the cat people is irritating beyond belief, I can't believe that Halo of all things managed to make first contact more believable/impactful than Andromeda did with the Angara.
You mean the same encounter where at first we don't understand what they are saying until the AI in our heads, one built with specifically things like this in mind, helped translate? Oh, you mean the plot device that automatically breaks down language and cultural barriers in an instant without us having the pain or pleasure of figuring it out on our own through dialogue choices or actions?
How careless of me not to remember such an impactful and incredible first contact moment.
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Post by alanc9 on Jan 3, 2023 23:32:54 GMT
Hey, "crybully" might actually be useful. I get stuff like that from social conservatives all the time. (My own fault for hanging out on Quora)
Thanks.
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Post by themikefest on Jan 3, 2023 23:50:18 GMT
Bioware for most part hasn't any fan baiting but they are notorious for over promising the fans about choices mattered in ME3 for example and crybully for not delivering said promise. Your choices in ME3 did matter. People and entire races could be alive or dead based on your choices, let alone how the galaxy will look after the war. Them going back to the Milky Way and seemingly making a canon state for things is the first time the choices no longer really matter. Also what does crybully mean? Are you sure about choices mattering? Did you not say the genophage is cured, or at least hinted at being cured, in the green even if the player chose to sabotage it earlier in the game? And if it's true t'soni will be in the next game, that means Bioware ignored a playthrough with Harbinger killing the asari. If people are ok with Bioware doing that, why not be ok for other choices regardless of whatever that choice is?
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jan 4, 2023 0:40:15 GMT
Your choices in ME3 did matter. People and entire races could be alive or dead based on your choices, let alone how the galaxy will look after the war. Them going back to the Milky Way and seemingly making a canon state for things is the first time the choices no longer really matter. Also what does crybully mean? crybully (plural crybullies) (derogatory) A person who engages in intimidation, harassment, or other abusive behaviour while claiming to be a victim. Thank you very much. ![:)](//storage.proboards.com/6576594/images/KGsHESiZGZU0pPuHuhQr.png)
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jan 4, 2023 0:43:36 GMT
You mean the same encounter where at first we don't understand what they are saying until the AI in our heads, one built with specifically things like this in mind, helped translate? Oh, you mean the plot device that automatically breaks down language and cultural barriers in an instant without us having the pain or pleasure of figuring it out on our own through dialogue choices or actions?
How careless of me not to remember such an impactful and incredible first contact moment. I mean I get your complaint, but it’s been established throughout the franchise that that’s how alien races understand each other (they aren’t actually speaking the language the game is dubbed in) and with MEA it was established that the SAMs were built with that in mind. AIs can do in seconds what would take organics, say, the length of a Star Trek episode to accomplish.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jan 4, 2023 0:48:10 GMT
Your choices in ME3 did matter. People and entire races could be alive or dead based on your choices, let alone how the galaxy will look after the war. Them going back to the Milky Way and seemingly making a canon state for things is the first time the choices no longer really matter. Also what does crybully mean? Are you sure about choices mattering? Did you not say the genophage is cured, or at least hinted at being cured, in the green even if the player chose to sabotage it earlier in the game? And if it's true t'soni will be in the next game, that means Bioware ignored a playthrough with Harbinger killing the asari. If people are ok with Bioware doing that, why not be ok for other choices regardless of whatever that choice is? The player in that scenario also chose to have Synthesis and all that would bring, so yes. You overriding your earlier choices with later ones isn’t your choices not mattering. As for Liara, so far she’s just been in a trailer (that means nothing since it’s before they’ve done even the earliest parts of development) and we know BioWare uses a default worldstate for that kind of stuff and that it doesn’t necessarily reflect your worldstate. So I’m waiting to see for certain before answering that. That said, as I mentioned before them seemingly canonizing things is the first time they are making your choices not matter. I’m not okay with that, and is one reason I’d prefer we remain in Andromeda.
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Post by themikefest on Jan 4, 2023 0:54:42 GMT
Are you sure about choices mattering? Did you not say the genophage is cured, or at least hinted at being cured, in the green even if the player chose to sabotage it earlier in the game? And if it's true t'soni will be in the next game, that means Bioware ignored a playthrough with Harbinger killing the asari. If people are ok with Bioware doing that, why not be ok for other choices regardless of whatever that choice is? The player in that scenario also chose to have Synthesis and all that would bring, so yes. You overriding your earlier choices with later ones isn’t your choices not mattering. If that's the case, why make any choices if the green if going to make them for the player? It may not matter to you, but it might to the player(s)
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jan 4, 2023 1:24:32 GMT
The player in that scenario also chose to have Synthesis and all that would bring, so yes. You overriding your earlier choices with later ones isn’t your choices not mattering. If that's the case, why make any choices if the green if going to make them for the player? It may not matter to you, but it might to the player(s) Because it didn’t make them for the player. The player is the one who made them. If you bought something then sold it, that doesn’t mean you never had it. I see you ignored the part where I explicitly state player choice matters to me.
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Post by Vortex13 on Jan 4, 2023 1:27:16 GMT
Oh, you mean the plot device that automatically breaks down language and cultural barriers in an instant without us having the pain or pleasure of figuring it out on our own through dialogue choices or actions?
How careless of me not to remember such an impactful and incredible first contact moment. I mean I get your complaint, but it’s been established throughout the franchise that that’s how alien races understand each other (they aren’t actually speaking the language the game is dubbed in) and with MEA it was established that the SAMs were built with that in mind. AIs can do in seconds what would take organics, say, the length of a Star Trek episode to accomplish. Yes, it's a convenient handwave so BioWare doesn't have to think too hard about the logistics of first contact but it also makes the whole interaction watered down to the point that there was nothing different between the Angara and humans beside a cheap rubber mask. You could literally swap their entire race out for a colony of secluded human settlers and nothing about them or the plot would change. The original Mass Effect felt more alien and open for discovery than Andromeda did.
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Post by themikefest on Jan 4, 2023 1:36:48 GMT
I see you ignored the part where I explicitly state player choice matters to me. It may not matter to you if the player believes her/his choice isn't acknowleged, it's you wording it in a way that works for you so you can say the choice matters.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jan 4, 2023 1:54:44 GMT
I mean I get your complaint, but it’s been established throughout the franchise that that’s how alien races understand each other (they aren’t actually speaking the language the game is dubbed in) and with MEA it was established that the SAMs were built with that in mind. AIs can do in seconds what would take organics, say, the length of a Star Trek episode to accomplish. Yes, it's a convenient handwave so BioWare doesn't have to think too hard about the logistics of first contact but it also makes the whole interaction watered down to the point that there was nothing different between the Angara and humans beside a cheap rubber mask. You could literally swap their entire race out for a colony of secluded human settlers and nothing about them or the plot would change. The original Mass Effect felt more alien and open for discovery than Andromeda did. Oh sure, besides history, culture, and other tiny things like that no difference at all. :rolleyes: Disagree that ME1 felt more alien, other than it being the first game in a franchise so everything is new.
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