wright1978
N4
  
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
Prime Posts: 8,116
Prime Likes: 2073
Posts: 1,614 Likes: 2,446
inherit
1492
0
Sept 6, 2023 20:42:34 GMT
2,446
wright1978
1,614
Sept 8, 2016 12:06:29 GMT
September 2016
wright1978
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
8,116
2073
|
Post by wright1978 on Apr 16, 2023 10:53:44 GMT
Andromeda reminded me of the moment in 'Hitchhikers guide to the galaxy' where they land on the ark that'd deliberately been sent ahead by the Golgafrinchans to rid themselves of an entire useless third of their population. A real shame really as thought there was real potential in a serious western story of a council back up plan of colonists sent away to escape the reapers.
|
|
Ash
N2

Never apologise for being openly angry when someone has used, manipulated, misled and abandoned you.
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Mass Effect Andromeda
Origin: Capta1nAsh / N7_Ash
Posts: 182 Likes: 646
inherit
12136
0
Sept 27, 2023 5:49:10 GMT
646
Ash
Never apologise for being openly angry when someone has used, manipulated, misled and abandoned you.
182
November 2021
capta1nash
Mass Effect Trilogy, Mass Effect Andromeda
Capta1nAsh / N7_Ash
|
Post by Ash on Apr 17, 2023 0:32:21 GMT
Not dealbreakers but it would put a bad taste in my mouth.
- Shepard is alive (would rather it be canon that he's a Martyr, or ME5 is set centuries in the future) - No multiplayer (I know this game needs to have an excellent singleplayer for the franchise to be saved but honestly, my favourite part of ME3/A was the Multiplayer. It was just the combat and jumping from character to character between short matches was fun and addictive) - A lack of Renegade/Agressive dialogue option. (Found it's absense in MEA to be a massive loss, couldn't bite back at NPCs that gave Ryder crap)
|
|
inherit
12295
0
Sept 27, 2023 0:17:16 GMT
81
heinomk3
63
Jul 23, 2022 20:10:29 GMT
July 2022
heinomk3
|
Post by heinomk3 on Apr 20, 2023 23:18:42 GMT
As I've said, they need to focus more on the science side of science fiction. I would also say that BioWare needs to honestly try to explore the more alien elements of the setting. And no, I don't count their attempt with the Angara as an exploration of anything remotely alien. You could literally replace their entire species with a lost colony of humans and nothing about them changes. To be fair to Andromeda we should consider that the actual game was made in a fairly short timeframe, after they wasted a lot of time prototyping some procedural generation based concepts. This is why a lot of things in ME:A seem so shallow despite an actual effort made to create some depth in the basic concept - there probably wasn't time to build and code the ingame representation of all what they may have thought out.
There is also a detail which made me struggle to write a response to this post of yours, and I made a couple of tries already.
I do agree on exploring "more alien elements" of the setting.
But on the other side one of the most well-done and probably most fundamental principles of why Mass Effect is so popular, or at least why I like it so much, is the way they designed the majority of the core aliens in ME setting - most of them aren't some inexplainable monsters with absolutely repulsive visuals or other disgusting details - on the contrary, one could easily imagine staying in the same room with many of them for extended periods of time without freaking out - and in general most of the species we encounter are capable of meaningful communication, which ironically diminishes their "alienness" the more one plays through the series. I would compare Mass Effect 1 setting to coming to High School/College/University for the first time. Here is your campus = Citadel with lots of new, interesting personas you can have interesting conversations with, and then there are territories outside with exciting adventures, shifty figures and increasingly dangerous situations. A fairly relatable experience for most of us, I think.
Thus, what would constitute "alienness"? Something completely alien is something incomprehensible, which goes against basic ME design, I'd say. And when we consider the species we already encountered, all of them are pretty alien at their base design, it's just that the ability to freely communicate with each other in very human terms washes away lots of their strangeness fairly quickly.
Therefore I'd probably would suggest to work out some special quirks a little bit better for the known species:
Asari biotics influencing Asari control mechanism/interface design, certain architechture elements(ie certain areas requiring biotic levitation); thinking about their religious codex a bit more and why it is still in place despite their scientifical advancement, religious rituals and maybe role of Eezo in their biology - IE can they actually exist as a civilization on Eezo-poor worlds, are Asari without biotics imaginable, do things like biotic prostheses exist, just like for humans with lost limbs?
Krogan NPCs need their Krogan charge and regeneration/damage resistance back, because otherwise their fabled survivability is mostly talk. And maybe also a show off of their arena fights or violent games which are only mentioned in the codex/lore to demonstrate the warrior nature of the species better visually. We have not seen a lot of Volus/Elcor, especially their homeworlds, so there is a lot of potential simply in terms of visual design.
etc.
And then, if we get another batch of "bad guys", their design could be a bit more alien in terms of visuals and behaviour/locomotion, just like that of the Collectors.
There is one thing concerning me, though, when we talk about more alien elements we would like to see - another deal breaker, I guess:
That the Bioware might overreact just like they did with the general mood in ME:A and decide to change/retcon some of the original alien species into something more exotic for some reason, like what happened to Klingons in STD. They already tried it with Asari and pronouns in ME:A, and also retconned the original Prothean design, so I wouldn't be surprized if even more were to come - but I certainly would not be happy about that.
|
|
inherit
9274
0
Sept 27, 2023 6:44:12 GMT
876
hulluliini
469
August 2017
hulluliini
|
Post by hulluliini on Apr 21, 2023 7:32:21 GMT
I think what people mean with alienness is having species like the Elcor, Volus, Hanar and not just your run-of-the-mill biped double-jointed creatures with lips and "tentacle hair". The Kett are fine in terms of design but for some reason they get kind of boring. On the other hand, all the wildlife was pretty cool.
|
|
inherit
1040
0
Sept 26, 2023 20:26:52 GMT
3,179
Vortex13
2,185
Aug 17, 2016 14:31:53 GMT
August 2016
vortex13
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, KOTOR, Jade Empire
|
Post by Vortex13 on May 3, 2023 14:32:40 GMT
As I've said, they need to focus more on the science side of science fiction. I would also say that BioWare needs to honestly try to explore the more alien elements of the setting. And no, I don't count their attempt with the Angara as an exploration of anything remotely alien. You could literally replace their entire species with a lost colony of humans and nothing about them changes. To be fair to Andromeda we should consider that the actual game was made in a fairly short timeframe, after they wasted a lot of time prototyping some procedural generation based concepts. This is why a lot of things in ME:A seem so shallow despite an actual effort made to create some depth in the basic concept - there probably wasn't time to build and code the ingame representation of all what they may have thought out.
There is also a detail which made me struggle to write a response to this post of yours, and I made a couple of tries already.
I do agree on exploring "more alien elements" of the setting.
But on the other side one of the most well-done and probably most fundamental principles of why Mass Effect is so popular, or at least why I like it so much, is the way they designed the majority of the core aliens in ME setting - most of them aren't some inexplainable monsters with absolutely repulsive visuals or other disgusting details - on the contrary, one could easily imagine staying in the same room with many of them for extended periods of time without freaking out - and in general most of the species we encounter are capable of meaningful communication, which ironically diminishes their "alienness" the more one plays through the series. I would compare Mass Effect 1 setting to coming to High School/College/University for the first time. Here is your campus = Citadel with lots of new, interesting personas you can have interesting conversations with, and then there are territories outside with exciting adventures, shifty figures and increasingly dangerous situations. A fairly relatable experience for most of us, I think.
Thus, what would constitute "alienness"? Something completely alien is something incomprehensible, which goes against basic ME design, I'd say. And when we consider the species we already encountered, all of them are pretty alien at their base design, it's just that the ability to freely communicate with each other in very human terms washes away lots of their strangeness fairly quickly.
Therefore I'd probably would suggest to work out some special quirks a little bit better for the known species:
Asari biotics influencing Asari control mechanism/interface design, certain architechture elements(ie certain areas requiring biotic levitation); thinking about their religious codex a bit more and why it is still in place despite their scientifical advancement, religious rituals and maybe role of Eezo in their biology - IE can they actually exist as a civilization on Eezo-poor worlds, are Asari without biotics imaginable, do things like biotic prostheses exist, just like for humans with lost limbs?
Krogan NPCs need their Krogan charge and regeneration/damage resistance back, because otherwise their fabled survivability is mostly talk. And maybe also a show off of their arena fights or violent games which are only mentioned in the codex/lore to demonstrate the warrior nature of the species better visually. We have not seen a lot of Volus/Elcor, especially their homeworlds, so there is a lot of potential simply in terms of visual design.
etc.
And then, if we get another batch of "bad guys", their design could be a bit more alien in terms of visuals and behaviour/locomotion, just like that of the Collectors.
There is one thing concerning me, though, when we talk about more alien elements we would like to see - another deal breaker, I guess:
That the Bioware might overreact just like they did with the general mood in ME:A and decide to change/retcon some of the original alien species into something more exotic for some reason, like what happened to Klingons in STD. They already tried it with Asari and pronouns in ME:A, and also retconned the original Prothean design, so I wouldn't be surprized if even more were to come - but I certainly would not be happy about that.
Oh I agree that going by the dictionary definition of 'alien' is not possible for Mass Effect or any other fictional setting as that would require something that, by it's very nature, we as humans cannot comprehend. That being said, pursing alien elements is not impossible, indeed it helps better flesh out the setting and world building, and is something that I would say that BioWare has very much let fall to the wayside in recent years; exemplified perfectly when "Rule of Cool" Mac Walters was put in charge as head writer. And while non-humanoid depictions are certainly the first thing people think of when they think 'alien' that is in no way a requirement. Indeed some of the more 'alien' aliens in the setting have been showcased to us in forms that don't diverge wildly from human norms; specifically Legion in ME 2 and the speakers for both the Rachni Queen and Thorian. Now granted the latter two examples have non-human appearances for their species, but they both interacted with the player through an easily recognizable mediator. The alien element that they conveyed wasn't based on their appearance but rather the writing behind them. The writing that depicted the ME 2 Geth, that explored the Rachni was based on the foundational theme of exploring how something intrinsically different from us would perceive the universe; whether that be through consensus and the cold logic of machine thinking, or adding the concept of synthesia disorder to eusocial hive minded insects. Those were the things that set them apart from just being another human in a rubber mask. Even the more human-like aliens of the first two games had an alien element to them; from the Salarians who thought fast, talked fast, and lived fast due to their hyper metabolism to the Krogan who's biological immortality, coupled with their R-rated predatory nature, made the narrative around application of the Genophage a very murky situation. Etc. Of course by the time ME 3 rolls around all of that nuance and 'alienness' has been shoved out the airlock in favor of forced emotional drama and cheap Pinocchio-bots, a trend which carried forward into Andromeda and left us with no real aliens to speak of despite taking place over two million light years away from the previous trilogy. The Milky Way aliens have been reduced to the point of just being humans wearing rubber masks, and the new additions to the setting in the form of the Angara, Khett and Remnant are just rubber-forehead humans who have heightened emotions, Collector knock-offs with a semi-religious bent, and suduko powered rombas who are more plot-device than species. BioWare had no interest in attempting to explore those alien elements that were present, rather they focused on having Citadel-level 'comedic' writing with characters who were quirky. A perfect example of this is on the first desert planet you encounter after the prologue. Those insectoid aliens you spend hours killing as you run around doing fetch quests, the bugs that just seem to spawn in for no other purpose than to give the player something to shoot? There's no mention of them in the dialogue, no overheard reference in side chatter, they don't even have a throw away Codex entry. Nothing. Or just look at this video for a presentation of what I am driving at:
|
|
inherit
12295
0
Sept 27, 2023 0:17:16 GMT
81
heinomk3
63
Jul 23, 2022 20:10:29 GMT
July 2022
heinomk3
|
Post by heinomk3 on May 4, 2023 22:41:12 GMT
Of course by the time ME 3 rolls around all of that nuance and 'alienness' has been shoved out the airlock in favor of forced emotional drama and cheap Pinocchio-bots, a trend which carried forward into Andromeda and left us with no real aliens to speak of despite taking place over two million light years away from the previous trilogy. The Milky Way aliens have been reduced to the point of just being humans wearing rubber masks, and the new additions to the setting in the form of the Angara, Khett and Remnant are just rubber-forehead humans who have heightened emotions, Collector knock-offs with a semi-religious bent, and suduko powered rombas who are more plot-device than species. BioWare had no interest in attempting to explore those alien elements that were present, rather they focused on having Citadel-level 'comedic' writing with characters who were quirky. Yes, exactly that - we had ME1 with really great initial alien concepts, which were very slightly expanded upon in ME2 and which then in ME:A suddenly regressed into just essentially funny looking people from your neighbourhood. I'm in total agreement with you on that.
After thinking a bit about what else I could write, taking in account my previous post, it all comes down to the idea that whoever did the main work on the aliens in ME1 would be a good candidate to do the same in the next ME. That's basically it. ME1 had what we wanted and whoever made the alien concepts understood how to do it for a really solid selection of different aliens - from very human-like to completely alien.
When it comes to your remarks about ME:A and the video, I'll have to defend Andromeda a little bit, as I played the "fixed" version a year or two after the initial release and the most glaring logical problems in the first part of the game were apparently resolved - IE the bit about landing on Aya and instantly understanding Angara was explained as them having already met the outcasts of Nexus on the other planets and thus having learned the language before your arrival on their planet. Same for bugs - I think I even had one of their corpses waiting in the scientific laboratory on the Tempest where I'd scan them for some research points or xp.
I also think Angara and Kett are pretty okay as a concept for aliens and they simply needed a lot more "show, not tell", just as basically the whole game wold have profited from a lot more substance in almost every aspect which wasn't possible due to wasted time during early development. IE Angara are being described as emotional, living in large families - well, just show us their large families housing together, kids and severeal generations of adults, show them singing or doing some arts, holding theatrical spectacles telling stories about their past or having some heated debates full of sharp-tongued exchanges. Show them having some sort of a ritual soacking up the sunlight at dawn, with their skin shimmering and pulsating with light like they are indeed getting charged up by it in some way. They don't have to be extremely alien, just sufficiently different. And there is still the whole aspect of being in some way related to the Remnant, being able to have a mind transfer after death and being possibly a created species not native to Heleus and coming from who knows where. Kett are same in the way that what is shown of them simply does not cover a lot of what their concept has to offer.
|
|
inherit
9274
0
Sept 27, 2023 6:44:12 GMT
876
hulluliini
469
August 2017
hulluliini
|
Post by hulluliini on May 5, 2023 7:24:09 GMT
Of course by the time ME 3 rolls around all of that nuance and 'alienness' has been shoved out the airlock in favor of forced emotional drama and cheap Pinocchio-bots, a trend which carried forward into Andromeda and left us with no real aliens to speak of despite taking place over two million light years away from the previous trilogy. The Milky Way aliens have been reduced to the point of just being humans wearing rubber masks, and the new additions to the setting in the form of the Angara, Khett and Remnant are just rubber-forehead humans who have heightened emotions, Collector knock-offs with a semi-religious bent, and suduko powered rombas who are more plot-device than species. BioWare had no interest in attempting to explore those alien elements that were present, rather they focused on having Citadel-level 'comedic' writing with characters who were quirky. Yes, exactly that - we had ME1 with really great initial alien concepts, which were very slightly expanded upon in ME2 and which then in ME:A suddenly regressed into just essentially funny looking people from your neighbourhood. I'm in total agreement with you on that.
After thinking a bit about what else I could write, taking in account my previous post, it all comes down to the idea that whoever did the main work on the aliens in ME1 would be a good candidate to do the same in the next ME. That's basically it. ME1 had what we wanted and whoever made the alien concepts understood how to do it for a really solid selection of different aliens - from very human-like to completely alien.
When it comes to your remarks about ME:A and the video, I'll have to defend Andromeda a little bit, as I played the "fixed" version a year or two after the initial release and the most glaring logical problems in the first part of the game were apparently resolved - IE the bit about landing on Aya and instantly understanding Angara was explained as them having already met the outcasts of Nexus on the other planets and thus having learned the language before your arrival on their planet. Same for bugs - I think I even had one of their corpses waiting in the scientific laboratory on the Tempest where I'd scan them for some research points or xp.
I also think Angara and Kett are pretty okay as a concept for aliens and they simply needed a lot more "show, not tell", just as basically the whole game wold have profited from a lot more substance in almost every aspect which wasn't possible due to wasted time during early development. IE Angara are being described as emotional, living in large families - well, just show us their large families housing together, kids and severeal generations of adults, show them singing or doing some arts, holding theatrical spectacles telling stories about their past or having some heated debates full of sharp-tongued exchanges. Show them having some sort of a ritual soacking up the sunlight at dawn, with their skin shimmering and pulsating with light like they are indeed getting charged up by it in some way. They don't have to be extremely alien, just sufficiently different. And there is still the whole aspect of being in some way related to the Remnant, being able to have a mind transfer after death and being possibly a created species not native to Heleus and coming from who knows where. Kett are same in the way that what is shown of them simply does not cover a lot of what their concept has to offer.
I agree, some of it is also due to only telling but not showing. The game tells us how they are supposed to be alien in many ways but doesn't really show it, so our experience is that they are not that alien. You have to use your imagination and actively ignore what you are seeing and experiencing in order to maintain the mental image of all these interesting aspects that are not shown or elaborated on. I'm not surprised most people just go on based on what they see rather than what they can imagine.
|
|
Gileadan
N5
   
Agent 46
Clearance Level Ultra
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
Origin: ALoneGretchin
Posts: 2,603 Likes: 6,455
inherit
Agent 46
177
0
Sept 27, 2023 9:18:10 GMT
6,455
Gileadan
Clearance Level Ultra
2,603
August 2016
gileadan
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
ALoneGretchin
|
Post by Gileadan on May 5, 2023 9:07:51 GMT
And it doesn't help that the "aliens" tend to talk from a human perspective and/or use humanity as the standard for everything.
"We asari are a very long lived race." "We angara are very emotional."
... instead of "you humans are short lived" or "you humans seem a bit emotionally distant". They talk like humans pretending to be aliens. Rookie writing.
|
|
inherit
9274
0
Sept 27, 2023 6:44:12 GMT
876
hulluliini
469
August 2017
hulluliini
|
Post by hulluliini on May 5, 2023 9:35:32 GMT
And it doesn't help that the "aliens" tend to talk from a human perspective and/or use humanity as the standard for everything. "We asari are a very long lived race." "We angara are very emotional." ... instead of "you humans are short lived" or "you humans seem a bit emotionally distant". They talk like humans pretending to be aliens. Rookie writing. IIRC, Volus and Batarians have a life span similar to humans while Salarians and Vorcha have shorter. Krogan, Asari and Elcor have the longest and Turians live somewhat longer than humans. It's not human-centric for Asari to say that. As for being emotional, I'm not sure it's correctly described. More like open about expressing emotions, since all MW races seem to experience emotions basically the same way as humans. It's really weird though for Angara to describe themselves like that because they have no frame of reference apart from the Kett. How would they possibly realise that they are more openly emotional than other races they have never even encountered.
|
|
inherit
1040
0
Sept 26, 2023 20:26:52 GMT
3,179
Vortex13
2,185
Aug 17, 2016 14:31:53 GMT
August 2016
vortex13
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, KOTOR, Jade Empire
|
Post by Vortex13 on May 5, 2023 12:53:29 GMT
Of course by the time ME 3 rolls around all of that nuance and 'alienness' has been shoved out the airlock in favor of forced emotional drama and cheap Pinocchio-bots, a trend which carried forward into Andromeda and left us with no real aliens to speak of despite taking place over two million light years away from the previous trilogy. The Milky Way aliens have been reduced to the point of just being humans wearing rubber masks, and the new additions to the setting in the form of the Angara, Khett and Remnant are just rubber-forehead humans who have heightened emotions, Collector knock-offs with a semi-religious bent, and suduko powered rombas who are more plot-device than species. BioWare had no interest in attempting to explore those alien elements that were present, rather they focused on having Citadel-level 'comedic' writing with characters who were quirky. Yes, exactly that - we had ME1 with really great initial alien concepts, which were very slightly expanded upon in ME2 and which then in ME:A suddenly regressed into just essentially funny looking people from your neighbourhood. I'm in total agreement with you on that.
After thinking a bit about what else I could write, taking in account my previous post, it all comes down to the idea that whoever did the main work on the aliens in ME1 would be a good candidate to do the same in the next ME. That's basically it. ME1 had what we wanted and whoever made the alien concepts understood how to do it for a really solid selection of different aliens - from very human-like to completely alien. That person was Chris L'Etoile and unfortunately he is no longer with BioWare after the conclusion of Mass Effect 2; much to BioWare's chagrin. Reasons for his departure are a bit vague but, allegedly, the higher ups (Mac Walters if I had to bet) and him had a clash of creative differences. Essentially Mac wanted to take Chris's baby; the Geth & Legion; and turn them from their own unique 'alien' intelligence, ones who wanted to 'build their own future, apart from the old machines' into Pinocchio-bots who gladly install Reaper software just so they can become real boys just like everyone else. Honestly, I don't blame L'Etoile for leaving if that's true. If my hard work and passion was being taken and watered down with a massive idiot hammer I would want to quit too. Though with Chris gone it was obvious that BioWare didn't have anyone with either the talent or the desire in writing those alien concepts if you consider the trend the next two games had in that department. So BioWare actually reworked the whole scene with Ryder conversing with the Angara speaking gibberish to where they can communicate from the start? On one hand I would aplaude their attempts at making the narrative more logical and concise but on the other hand that doesn't speak very highly of their writing team if they shipped the game with such a massive oversight in the narrative. I mean ME 1 & 2 didn't have to retroactively go back and alter the story of their game for it to make sense so I suppose that's not really a merit on BioWare's part. Though all that does is just beg the question as to the reason why BioWare wanted to have a "First Contact" scenario in the first place? What's the whole point of being a Pathfinder and exploring the unknown if someone has already done all that for you? Really it points back to the lack of agency a character like Ryder has in the whole adventure. What does he / she bring to the table aside from having a special AI implant that daddy made for you? You take away SAM and Ryder is a wet noodle and wouldn't have made any notable impact upon the narrative. But that's a whole other can of worms and I digress. The problem with the races like the Angara is that from the very foundation of their design BioWare wasn't trying to go for an alien theme. After all, they specifically said in interviews that they designed the Angara to be as "cosplay-able as possible". That doesn't speak very highly of their intentions in making an alien species that supposed to be intrinsically different from us.
|
|
Spectr61
N3
 
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem
Origin: Spectr61
Posts: 750 Likes: 1,203
inherit
41
0
Sept 22, 2023 17:41:44 GMT
1,203
Spectr61
750
August 2016
spectr61
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem
Spectr61
|
Post by Spectr61 on May 6, 2023 23:11:24 GMT
+10 Vortex. Spot on.
Chris L'Etoile leaving and the ascension of Mac Walters was the deathknell for the series.
At least there is cause for hope as that cockroach finally left Biower.....
|
|
inherit
12295
0
Sept 27, 2023 0:17:16 GMT
81
heinomk3
63
Jul 23, 2022 20:10:29 GMT
July 2022
heinomk3
|
Post by heinomk3 on May 18, 2023 23:43:03 GMT
So BioWare actually reworked the whole scene with Ryder conversing with the Angara speaking gibberish to where they can communicate from the start? On one hand I would aplaude their attempts at making the narrative more logical and concise but on the other hand that doesn't speak very highly of their writing team if they shipped the game with such a massive oversight in the narrative. I mean ME 1 & 2 didn't have to retroactively go back and alter the story of their game for it to make sense so I suppose that's not really a merit on BioWare's part. Though all that does is just beg the question as to the reason why BioWare wanted to have a "First Contact" scenario in the first place? What's the whole point of being a Pathfinder and exploring the unknown if someone has already done all that for you? Really it points back to the lack of agency a character like Ryder has in the whole adventure. What does he / she bring to the table aside from having a special AI implant that daddy made for you? You take away SAM and Ryder is a wet noodle and wouldn't have made any notable impact upon the narrative. But that's a whole other can of worms and I digress. The problem with the races like the Angara is that from the very foundation of their design BioWare wasn't trying to go for an alien theme. After all, they specifically said in interviews that they designed the Angara to be as "cosplay-able as possible". That doesn't speak very highly of their intentions in making an alien species that supposed to be intrinsically different from us.
IMO the biggest of the issues with ME:A stem from wasted development time, because IMO there is an interesting foundation and not enough that is built on top of it, and when you play through the game that's pretty obvious - I'm repeating myself here, although honestly at this point I should not.
But if what you say about Angara being designed as a cosplay target is true, then that's certainly another part of the issue - devs have lost their marbles completely, out of touch with general populace or are simply diversity/quota hired agenda pushers. That's exactly what my first posts in this thread were about. First we had them proudly explain how much effort they spend to make their female characters ugly, then we had PeeBee's face in the first trailer being a real "hit" with the public *öhöhö*, and now Angara as cosplay-able. I wonder what horrors await us next.
Concerning Ryder and also some of the critique on Andromeda - not enough at stake etc - I'll have to disagree again. Ryder is being essentially you, a somewhat regular person with a bit of general training, who went on a crazy far journey following your father and is now becoming an adult taking responsibility for yourself and about 70k others at first and even more later, in the face of existential threat from a multi-species empire comprising of who-knows-how-many trillions of gentically modified individuals hoping to inject everyone with their gene-juice. And that's on top of the issue that every environment you encounter is essentially hostile or already claimed, your ressources running out and all habitable planets containing an unknown amount of weird alien technology doing who knows what and belonging to who knows who - but there certainly was an interstellar war with a superweapon being fired, which also has messed everything in the entire star cluster and you can only wonder, if one of the factions taking part might return one day.
And thus the whole point of being a Pathfinder is finding a way - a path - out of this mess. Again, first for 70k on the Ark, then for the whole Heleus. Even if story-wise Ryder was meant to be an explorer at first, he becomes more - which seems like a classic hero journey. And while I agree on SAM being a bit of an issue in terms of its impact on everything Ryder does, SAM is comparable to a magical artifact from similar hero journey stories, where the main character inherits some sort of power or a magical item enabling him - and only him - to be the saviour everyone waited for.
But in general, I really agree about SAM taking a bit too much off Ryder's capabilities that should have be his own. It's still an interesting constellation, when one thinks about it:
- we have Reaper AI which is essentially the supreme machine god, which was even worpshipped by lesser machines - a faction of Geth, - we have Geth that hoped to fuse into their own essentially god-like overmind and, after failing that, infused themselves with the Reaper code = god essence to become superior(in comparison to their previous state) beings, - EDI as a sentient weapon made to combat gods, which then decides to learn what is like to be its creators, humans, - but is also capable - in theory, as unshackled AI - to start the journey to godhood at some point, maybe turning into a kind of patron deity of humanity,
- and Ryder twins + maybe other Pathfinders who are essentially avatars of a machine god embryo, which gives them superpowers. Almost like early prophets of a faith.
This is why the dependance on SAM does not seem like a glaring weakness in the plot to me, I simply always assumed that at some point this discrepancy in competency might become an important part of the Andromeda story.
|
|
inherit
♨ Retired
24
0
Sept 27, 2023 3:36:16 GMT
23,635
themikefest
14,541
August 2016
themikefest
21,655
15,426
|
Post by themikefest on Jun 10, 2023 14:17:12 GMT
Concerning Ryder and also some of the critique on Andromeda - not enough at stake etc - I'll have to disagree again. Ryder is being essentially you, a somewhat regular person with a bit of general training, who went on a crazy far journey following your father and is now becoming an adult taking responsibility for yourself and about 70k others Taking responsibility? In all the posts I've read, I don't believe I've seen the word responsibility in the same sentence with Ryder. Anyways. I disagree with your disagree. Lets take a look at this responsible thing. I would say Ryder is responsible for a few of the problems encountered throughout the game. When talking with Kosta, he tells Ryder he was suspended x number of times. That should have been a warning for Ryder telling them this Kosta guy is a troublemaker. Sure enough, he lives up to that name. I would have him removed from the roster right away avoiding any future issues. Then there's the peepee character. She tells Ryder she prefers to work alone. If Ryder had half a brain, he/she would know it takes a team to complete a mission. There is no I in team. Ryder should have known this from their days in the Alliance. But then again, the Alliance, or as i like to call them, circus, are not very well put together. Refusing to have the asari on the roster would have avoided any future issues. Later, it is learned, the peepee's girlfriend steals the robot. Hmmm. Is there a reason why the ship was left open for anyone to enter the ship? It would have been hilarious if the ship was stolen. Or worse, the crew is killed. I wonder if Ryder would leave their door unlocked when they went out to do whatever before going to Andromeda? When on whatever planet, they recover the robot stolen yet for some reason do not scan the thing for any foreign objects. Then there's the peepee's loyalty mission. At the start, the pilot tells Ryder it might take a while to find a landing spot yet the asari says he won't find a safe landing spot. Why didn't the little duck point that out to the asari? Then for whatever reason decides to enter the escape pod. Why couldn't Ryder stand outside the pod to talk with the asari? If anything, Ryder is irresponsible. I mean nothing is done to punish the two for the crap they pulled. It's because of the I don't care attitude. Ryder says as much. She/he is more interested in what they call a kicka** team. Nothing kicka** about when you have dumb and dumber on the roster. Of course Ryder will fill the third role as dumbest. I would go even further and say father Ryder has the same I don't care attitude. He must have letting the Kosta clown on the roster. I would suspect he was so obsessed with his wife, it distracted him enough to ignore the Kosta record. He should know better being a former N7. I agree with what Vortex13 says about Ryder. Without the Sam voice thing, Ryder wouldn't have been able to accomplish much of anything.
|
|
inherit
12295
0
Sept 27, 2023 0:17:16 GMT
81
heinomk3
63
Jul 23, 2022 20:10:29 GMT
July 2022
heinomk3
|
Post by heinomk3 on Jun 13, 2023 0:04:10 GMT
Concerning Ryder and also some of the critique on Andromeda - not enough at stake etc - I'll have to disagree again. Ryder is being essentially you, a somewhat regular person with a bit of general training, who went on a crazy far journey following your father and is now becoming an adult taking responsibility for yourself and about 70k others Taking responsibility? In all the posts I've read, I don't believe I've seen the word responsibility in the same sentence with Ryder. Anyways. I disagree with your disagree. Lets take a look at this responsible thing. I would say Ryder is responsible for a few of the problems encountered throughout the game. When talking with Kosta, he tells Ryder he was suspended x number of times. That should have been a warning for Ryder telling them this Kosta guy is a troublemaker. Sure enough, he lives up to that name. I would have him removed from the roster right away avoiding any future issues. Then there's the peepee character. She tells Ryder she prefers to work alone. If Ryder had half a brain, he/she would know it takes a team to complete a mission. There is no I in team. Ryder should have known this from their days in the Alliance. But then again, the Alliance, or as i like to call them, circus, are not very well put together. Refusing to have the asari on the roster would have avoided any future issues. Later, it is learned, the peepee's girlfriend steals the robot. Hmmm. Is there a reason why the ship was left open for anyone to enter the ship? It would have been hilarious if the ship was stolen. Or worse, the crew is killed. I wonder if Ryder would leave their door unlocked when they went out to do whatever before going to Andromeda? When on whatever planet, they recover the robot stolen yet for some reason do not scan the thing for any foreign objects. Then there's the peepee's loyalty mission. At the start, the pilot tells Ryder it might take a while to find a landing spot yet the asari says he won't find a safe landing spot. Why didn't the little duck point that out to the asari? Then for whatever reason decides to enter the escape pod. Why couldn't Ryder stand outside the pod to talk with the asari? If anything, Ryder is irresponsible. I mean nothing is done to punish the two for the crap they pulled. It's because of the I don't care attitude. Ryder says as much. She/he is more interested in what they call a kicka** team. Nothing kicka** about when you have dumb and dumber on the roster. Of course Ryder will fill the third role as dumbest. I would go even further and say father Ryder has the same I don't care attitude. He must have letting the Kosta clown on the roster. I would suspect he was so obsessed with his wife, it distracted him enough to ignore the Kosta record. He should know better being a former N7. I agree with what Vortex13 says about Ryder. Without the Sam voice thing, Ryder wouldn't have been able to accomplish much of anything. Well, that's the classical discrepance between what the devs were going for and what they were able to make in the end, isn't it? What if, when they went for a younger, unexperienced protagonist who gets into his/her postion by chance and then tries to shoulder the responsibility, they ended up making Ryder's subordinates do dumb things because they had to let Ryder look like a much more competent person in comparison, to allow somewhat natural character growth? If everyone was an absolute hardass with decades of experience Ryder would look like a complete dumbass in comparison right from the start, maybe that was a too complicated scenario for ME:A writers to work with.
|
|
inherit
9274
0
Sept 27, 2023 6:44:12 GMT
876
hulluliini
469
August 2017
hulluliini
|
Post by hulluliini on Jun 13, 2023 7:34:39 GMT
Hmm. Considering how the Initiative is a civilian venture, maybe they were going for a realistic depiction of the corporate world. The higher you go in the hierarchy, the more inept the employees are. The decisions they make are stupid and out of touch with reality. I've heard this story so many times from friends working in big companies.
|
|
inherit
The homeostatic problem-solving structure
8860
0
Apr 26, 2022 11:22:31 GMT
8,202
Unicephalon 40-D
An unknown possibly hostile flotilla detected at eight hundred astronomical units from the sun!
4,658
Jun 29, 2017 12:57:11 GMT
June 2017
legendcncd
Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem
LegendCNCD / AsariLoverFI
|
Post by Unicephalon 40-D on Jun 13, 2023 8:10:06 GMT
Thankfully MEA is not an alliance military war hero stuff and I hope they continue getting away from alliance or any military yeehaw hooray crap 
|
|
inherit
1040
0
Sept 26, 2023 20:26:52 GMT
3,179
Vortex13
2,185
Aug 17, 2016 14:31:53 GMT
August 2016
vortex13
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, KOTOR, Jade Empire
|
Post by Vortex13 on Jun 13, 2023 12:53:18 GMT
Thankfully MEA is not an alliance military war hero stuff and I hope they continue getting away from alliance or any military yeehaw hooray crap  I don't know, if the Initiative project would have been militarily staffed you most certainly wouldn't have had all the problems with fracturing of the leadership and large swathes of your population. They definitely wouldn't have had a criminal running security, stirring up a full blown insurrection against said leadership. Military organization and, most importantly, discipline would have stopped about half of the problems the Nexus faced when they arrived in Andromeda and the other half could have been tackled with a unified focus.
|
|
inherit
Scribbles
185
0
Sept 27, 2023 3:07:53 GMT
29,853
Hanako Ikezawa
Fan from 2003 - 2020
22,212
August 2016
hanakoikezawa
|
Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jun 13, 2023 15:10:13 GMT
Thankfully MEA is not an alliance military war hero stuff and I hope they continue getting away from alliance or any military yeehaw hooray crap  I don't know, if the Initiative project would have been militarily staffed you most certainly wouldn't have had all the problems with fracturing of the leadership and large swathes of your population. They definitely wouldn't have had a criminal running security, stirring up a full blown insurrection against said leadership. Military organization and, most importantly, discipline would have stopped about half of the problems the Nexus faced when they arrived in Andromeda and the other half could have been tackled with a unified focus. Oh yeah, because militaries have never tried to usurp power from their leaders. And even if they did, they have never failed once in charge. 
|
|
inherit
1040
0
Sept 26, 2023 20:26:52 GMT
3,179
Vortex13
2,185
Aug 17, 2016 14:31:53 GMT
August 2016
vortex13
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, KOTOR, Jade Empire
|
Post by Vortex13 on Jun 13, 2023 15:31:00 GMT
I don't know, if the Initiative project would have been militarily staffed you most certainly wouldn't have had all the problems with fracturing of the leadership and large swathes of your population. They definitely wouldn't have had a criminal running security, stirring up a full blown insurrection against said leadership. Military organization and, most importantly, discipline would have stopped about half of the problems the Nexus faced when they arrived in Andromeda and the other half could have been tackled with a unified focus. Oh yeah, because militaries have never tried to usurp power from their leaders. And even if they did, they have never failed once in charge.  In traveling to a completely unknown and very likely extremely dangerous location with no way of calling for help once you arrive who would you rather have leading people? A dedicated military organization who are trained to deal with situations like this? Or a civilian lead population, who can't even organize food rationing properly without it turning into a riot?
|
|
inherit
Scribbles
185
0
Sept 27, 2023 3:07:53 GMT
29,853
Hanako Ikezawa
Fan from 2003 - 2020
22,212
August 2016
hanakoikezawa
|
Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jun 13, 2023 21:13:41 GMT
Oh yeah, because militaries have never tried to usurp power from their leaders. And even if they did, they have never failed once in charge.  In traveling to a completely unknown and very likely extremely dangerous location with no way of calling for help once you arrive who would you rather have leading people? A dedicated military organization who are trained to deal with situations like this? Or a civilian lead population, who can't even organize food rationing properly without it turning into a riot? Would need more details than this, since there are many scenarios you described with those kind of trained militaries that ended in absolute disaster.
|
|
inherit
12295
0
Sept 27, 2023 0:17:16 GMT
81
heinomk3
63
Jul 23, 2022 20:10:29 GMT
July 2022
heinomk3
|
Post by heinomk3 on Jun 14, 2023 12:43:16 GMT
IMO it's just the question of leadership, no matter whether civilian or military. You need competent, charismatic leader figures at the helm who people can trust and look up to for direction. If that's disrupted or absent, you get chaos - demonstrated countless times through history. With Jien Garson dead and Ryder's father, too, we can assume that the Initiative lost exactly that type of the leadership figures and the second-in-charge weren't up to the task. The incompetence shown isn't exactly unexpected for a private exploration enterprise of that kind, where you would expect rather eccentric personas being a significant number of the expedition force.
|
|
inherit
9274
0
Sept 27, 2023 6:44:12 GMT
876
hulluliini
469
August 2017
hulluliini
|
Post by hulluliini on Jun 15, 2023 10:02:38 GMT
They weren't even second in charge, more like 15th in charge.
|
|
inherit
♨ Retired
24
0
Sept 27, 2023 3:36:16 GMT
23,635
themikefest
14,541
August 2016
themikefest
21,655
15,426
|
Post by themikefest on Jun 15, 2023 12:22:41 GMT
ah yes, military or civilian? The initiative is all civilian with some former military personnel. Though I would question that with what is seen in the game. It all starts with Jein I can't balance my checkbook Garson. She runs out of funds during the project. Out of the blue, this so-called benefactor with vast amounts of resources shows up. He/she/they/it flashes some coin in her face. She turns to mush getting all giddy inside knowing she can finish her silly sightseeing adventure. Why didn't she ask why she is receiving all these resources? Why didn't she do a background check? It's only when she's ready to leave the Milky Way, she decides to start questioning the benefactor's motive. To keep her company, let's add Alec I only care about my implant Ryder. If anything, I would have expected him to question the benefactor before accepting any help. He didn't care. His obsession with the implant and his wife clouded his mind. I would not have made him pathfinder. He agrees with Garson's concern though, but it was too late for that. Alec also has a trust issue. He doesn't trust his kids enough to let them know what he had planned for their mother. If true, why even have them on the team. Oh right, it was the only way for big Ryder to pass the implant crap to the little Ryder. When arriving to Andromeda, why weren't the fighters deployed to lead the way? Then again why weren't the fighter pilots and pathfinder team wakening up a few days before arriving so they can do an equipment check to make sure everything is in working order, go over any scenarios they might encounter? One of the funniest things happens in the shuttle when Kosta introduces himself. Little late for pathfinder team members to get to know each other. Waking up earlier would have helped for each team member to become familiar with one another. Look at the Nexus. It suffered damage when running into the scrouge. Had they deployed fighters when entering the cluster, the Nexus might have avoided any damage. The Nexus also housed all the tempest ships. Why? When in the hangar on the Hyperion, there is a lot of empty space. It could have had a tempest. Why didn't a pathfinder travel with the Nexus? Then there's the ships themselves. They decided not to add any defense system to protect all the fancy crap the ship had. Having them could make a difference allowing the ship to get out of trouble before things get to the point where it can't get out trouble. If it was a military led operation, I would guess things would have been different. Might not have encounter the problems that is seen in the game. Lastly is just after gaining control of Ryder. In the next area, a piece of machinery malfunctions. Ryder has a scanner. Ok. Why don't the maintenance personnel have one? Jim: What's wrong Bob? Bob: I don't know. I don't have a scanner to do my job. Jim: Oh, right. My bad. Want to go to the cafeteria to get something to eat while waiting for when Ryder returns to scan the faulty unit? Bob: Yeah. Overall a lot of the problems the Initiative encountered were self-induced. That can be easily explained as to why. Just use the same excuse dumb dumb used when talking to Shepard. You don't need to know, and there's not enough time to explain.
|
|
inherit
10454
0
Sept 19, 2023 6:37:24 GMT
279
mtheillusive
161
Aug 29, 2018 17:14:05 GMT
August 2018
mtheillusive
|
Post by mtheillusive on Jun 15, 2023 16:15:13 GMT
ah yes, military or civilian? The initiative is all civilian with some former military personnel. Though I would question that with what is seen in the game. It all starts with Jein I can't balance my checkbook Garson. She runs out of funds during the project. Out of the blue, this so-called benefactor with vast amounts of resources shows up. He/she/they/it flashes some coin in her face. She turns to mush getting all giddy inside knowing she can finish her silly sightseeing adventure. Why didn't she ask why she is receiving all these resources? Why didn't she do a background check? It's only when she's ready to leave the Milky Way, she decides to start questioning the benefactor's motive. To keep her company, let's add Alec I only care about my implant Ryder. If anything, I would have expected him to question the benefactor before accepting any help. He didn't care. His obsession with the implant and his wife clouded his mind. I would not have made him pathfinder. He agrees with Garson's concern though, but it was too late for that. Alec also has a trust issue. He doesn't trust his kids enough to let them know what he had planned for their mother. If true, why even have them on the team. Oh right, it was the only way for big Ryder to pass the implant crap to the little Ryder. When arriving to Andromeda, why weren't the fighters deployed to lead the way? Then again why weren't the fighter pilots and pathfinder team wakening up a few days before arriving so they can do an equipment check to make sure everything is in working order, go over any scenarios they might encounter? One of the funniest things happens in the shuttle when Kosta introduces himself. Little late for pathfinder team members to get to know each other. Waking up earlier would have helped for each team member to become familiar with one another. Look at the Nexus. It suffered damage when running into the scrouge. Had they deployed fighters when entering the cluster, the Nexus might have avoided any damage. The Nexus also housed all the tempest ships. Why? When in the hangar on the Hyperion, there is a lot of empty space. It could have had a tempest. Why didn't a pathfinder travel with the Nexus? Then there's the ships themselves. They decided not to add any defense system to protect all the fancy crap the ship had. Having them could make a difference allowing the ship to get out of trouble before things get to the point where it can't get out trouble. If it was a military led operation, I would guess things would have been different. Might not have encounter the problems that is seen in the game. Lastly is just after gaining control of Ryder. In the next area, a piece of machinery malfunctions. Ryder has a scanner. Ok. Why don't the maintenance personnel have one? Jim: What's wrong Bob? Bob: I don't know. I don't have a scanner to do my job. Jim: Oh, right. My bad. Want to go to the cafeteria to get something to eat while waiting for when Ryder returns to scan the faulty unit? Bob: Yeah. Overall a lot of the problems the Initiative encountered were self-induced. That can be easily explained as to why. Just use the same excuse dumb dumb used when talking to Shepard. You don't need to know, and there's not enough time to explain. Give them some slack! They traveled 600+ years to a whole different galaxy, to start a new life from scratch. They are civilians who came to new worlds to do something. And do something they did! And when things went wrong, they still found a way to survive, even when most people would fall into absolute complete anxiety and insanity on a scare hither to undreamt of. And the Pathfinder did their job, they found a new home for humanity! The people of Andromeda are no more confusing than Saren, who could have simply just chilled on the Citadel using his Spectere status after Eden Prime and immediately let Sovereign and the Geth right in the door. Or Cerberus using VAST amounts of money to bring a dead guy back to life to lead a group of 12 people to a place near a black hole into a space station to fight an army of Hundreds, thousands, if not MILLIONS of Collectors. Or the council who never prepares for the war at any point in the trilogy. Or CSec who had the entire Citadel taken over in a day...TWICE (Saren/Cerberus). Things just be happening....sense is secondary to life!
|
|
inherit
♨ Retired
24
0
Sept 27, 2023 3:36:16 GMT
23,635
themikefest
14,541
August 2016
themikefest
21,655
15,426
|
Post by themikefest on Jun 15, 2023 20:27:07 GMT
Slack? hahahaha. No. I'm sure the ones who died when the Nexus hit the scrouge wouldn't. Those lost lives might be alive if the Nexus deployed fighters when it entered the cluster to make sure the path to the Nexus' destination is clear. This means what? Lots of people I'm sure have traveled across the Milky Way looking to start a new life to get away from whatever. The biggest difference is they could get help, at least hope to, if needed whereas the ones going to Andromeda didn't have that luxury. That's why it's important to plan for the worst just in case something doesn't workout. Yes they did come to a new galaxy to do something yet maintenance personnel couldn't do their something because they didn't have the equipment they needed. Can you name these most people? I'm sure some would fold over, but not most. Humans are a resilient species. They only found it because Archie the Kett was so obsessed with the remmannat crap he forgot what he and his sidekicks were there for. If it was me, the Initiative would have been wiped out. When the little duck was immbolized on the ship, I would have fired at the salarian ship destroying it and possibly the tempest as well. Then after getting any information from the duck, he/she and squad would be used for target practice. I would then head to the Nexus in full force taking the Hyperion, then destroy the Nexus. If it wasn't for the sam voice thing, the ryder pathfinder wouldn't have found anything. While agree about Saren sitting on the Citadel, he was also indoctrinated. Indoctrination makes the individual do stupid things. Look at Cerberus in ME3. They became the keystone cops. At least Cerberus was doing something whereas the clown academy, I mean the circus, I really mean the Alliance weren't doing much of anything Don't forget the circus led by king clown anderscum. You remember that guy? He's the one who told Shepard it was up to him/her to stop the reapers. He never cared. His precious Alliance never cared. With Saren it was only for a brief time before the reaper was destroyed. With Cerberus I agree. C-Sec were caught off-guard, but that is also a lame excuse. With what was going on the galaxy at the time, they should have been better prepared for something. I understand things happen, but you want to limit those things as much as possible.
|
|