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Post by lavigne on Nov 7, 2022 16:25:22 GMT
I was actually quite forgiving of the technical performance issues. I was less so towards the open-world nature of the game and the endless tedious fetch-quests. They literally made the game a chore to play.
New characters don’t necessarily need to live up to the legacy characters as they were at the end of the trilogy, they just need to make enough of a mark to put them on a par with end of ME1 legacy characters. MEA didn’t do that. It was also far less effective in building its world. I didn’t care for the characters particularly. Even less so for the Kett and the Remnant who both just came across as antagonists-by-numbers. The amount of speculating and theorising that people did between ME1 and ME2 and between ME2 and ME3 was insane. By the end of MEA I actually didn’t have that much that I was interested in pondering upon.
They’ll go back to the MW. People like the familiar. That’s why even if you gave people the opportunity to cast their Shepard as an alien most would still have picked human. People like what they know, and the Andromeda galaxy was too remote and too far removed from everything that they were familiar with. In attempting to run away from having to canonise an ending to the trilogy they threw out the baby with the bathwater and ditched a lot of what had made the original trilogy great. I’m sure they’ll try and cater for MEA fans too, but I wouldn’t expect miracles and I certainly wouldn’t expect MEA to be the focus of the new game.
At the time of its release it was projected to make c9m unit sales over its lifetime. Last year it was forecast at around 5m. Not a disaster, but equally not a huge hit either. I think the backlash against the game WAS disproportionate, but rightly or wrongly the backlash was what it was, both from fans and critics, and that’s all that casual gamers will likely remember at this point, that it was lambasted, and that generally there’s no smoke without fire so…
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Post by themikefest on Nov 7, 2022 16:40:01 GMT
But that was the whole (secret) point of the Andromeda Initiative was it not? To flee Reapers and ensure the survival of the major Milky Way species? Did it? I thought it started out with Garson wanting to do some silly sightseeing adventure in a far reaching place? Wasn't it after the benefactor shows up flashing coin in her face that the project turns into fleeing the Milky Way?
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Post by Vortex13 on Nov 7, 2022 16:49:07 GMT
But that was the whole (secret) point of the Andromeda Initiative was it not? To flee Reapers and ensure the survival of the major Milky Way species? Did it? I thought it started out with Garson wanting to do some silly sightseeing adventure in a far reaching place? Wasn't it after the benefactor shows up flashing coin in her face that the project turns into fleeing the Milky Way? Well the whole AI was rather idiotic foolhardy in general. In a universe where hostile aliens exist; with humanity's first contract with one being an armed conflict; you have to be rather dense to not include any weapons on your spacecraft which are intended to house the entirety of your population. But that's besides the point. The Benefactor, or BioWare fleeing their own endings, the main point of the decision to move Mass Effect to the Andromeda galaxy was to continue the franchise onwards from one that was essentially at a dead end at the conclusion of the original trilogy. The breaking of the settings rules regarding travel and distance means that we are left with a narrative where there's no real reason to fear for the protagonists since if anything ever gets bad you can just have the races of a given planet/system/galaxy hop on their life raft and escape to somewhere else in the universe.
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Post by dmc1001 on Nov 7, 2022 17:18:39 GMT
Honestly I feel that if we are really going to have a setting that now encompasses two entire galaxies, both of which were less than 1% explored, that the scale and scope of the things have reached a point where Dragonball Z has more realism in it's characters' power levels than Mass Effect will have with have with the size of the universe in general. This is why I thought leaving the MW was stupid. Absolutely everything done in AI could have happened in the other 99% of the unexplored galaxy. In fact, the Nexus and arks could have "shut the door" behind them but blowing a relay to hell. This would even be in line with the realization that the Reapers would chase them if they had easy access. There would also be no RGB for them, which could be huge if someone chose Synthesis and the explorers return to find that all organic and synthetic life had changed. And no 600 year time gap. They could even have the Meridian be a major relay that the Jardaan built which could, when activated, tap into the other relays. These are just random ideas. Lots of stuff could have been done to make this work better. 2. Reapers control Mass Relay technology and while possible we have yet to see anyone build new Mass Relay. That we know of. Some ancient race could have built a relay and fled. Maybe the Jardaan. It's not even unrealistic that this couldn't have happened at some point in the last billion years. Hell, it could have happened when Harbinger was just coming online. Imagine one of those races looking at Harbinger and being like "Shit, this is going to go bad based on what we've seen before. Time to get the hell out of here." So they leave. At this point, there were no relays. The Reapers built them specifically to make harvesting easier. Or they were lying and the Leviathans built them. Either way, they were long gone to a place beyond Leviathan territory and so beyond where Reapers built relays.
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Post by Croatsky on Nov 7, 2022 17:30:43 GMT
That we know of. Some ancient race could have built a relay and fled. Maybe the Jardaan. It's not even unrealistic that this couldn't have happened at some point in the last billion years. Hell, it could have happened when Harbinger was just coming online. Imagine one of those races looking at Harbinger and being like "Shit, this is going to go bad based on what we've seen before. Time to get the hell out of here." So they leave. At this point, there were no relays. The Reapers built them specifically to make harvesting easier. Or they were lying and the Leviathans built them. Either way, they were long gone to a place beyond Leviathan territory and so beyond where Reapers built relays. Okay dude, now you're just acting in bad-faith.
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Post by dmc1001 on Nov 7, 2022 17:35:35 GMT
That we know of. Some ancient race could have built a relay and fled. Maybe the Jardaan. It's not even unrealistic that this couldn't have happened at some point in the last billion years. Hell, it could have happened when Harbinger was just coming online. Imagine one of those races looking at Harbinger and being like "Shit, this is going to go bad based on what we've seen before. Time to get the hell out of here." So they leave. At this point, there were no relays. The Reapers built them specifically to make harvesting easier. Or they were lying and the Leviathans built them. Either way, they were long gone to a place beyond Leviathan territory and so beyond where Reapers built relays. Okay dude, now you're just acting in bad-faith. Maybe but there's a billion years+ of galactic history of which we know nothing. Any information we have is based on the claims of the Reapers and Leviathans. It's in their best interests to make us believe no one can escape them. Really, though, why couldn't a race have escaped?
I still think the Jardaan are going to be what links Andromeda and the MW in some fashion. Maybe it wasn't the original intent but with no MEA2 happening that plan could have been revised. I doubt reconnecting with the MW was ever in their plans.
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Post by Vortex13 on Nov 7, 2022 17:36:56 GMT
Honestly I feel that if we are really going to have a setting that now encompasses two entire galaxies, both of which were less than 1% explored, that the scale and scope of the things have reached a point where Dragonball Z has more realism in it's characters' power levels than Mass Effect will have with have with the size of the universe in general. This is why I thought leaving the MW was stupid. Absolutely everything done in AI could have happened in the other 99% of the unexplored galaxy. In fact, the Nexus and arks could have "shut the door" behind them by blowing a relay to hell. This would even be in line with the realization that the Reapers would chase them if they had easy access. There would also be no RGB for them, which could be huge if someone chose Synthesis and the explorers return to find that all organic and synthetic life had changed. And no 600 year time gap. They could even have the Meridian be a major relay that the Jardaan built which could, when activated, tap into the other relays. These are just random ideas. Lots of stuff could have been done to make this work better. Exactly, this could have been a perfect opening to the game too. A Reaper armada closing in on the exodus fleet and nearly on top of them when they make a jump through the relay right before one of their ships stays behind to detonate the structure. Big explosion, the Reaper fleet is wiped out and so is any trace that an escape has been made from the horrors of the harvest. The rest of the story about the the Helius cluster and Angara could have played out exactly the same without having to break the rules of the setting. Or, if BioWare absolutely HAD to go to Andromeda for some inexplicable reason, then they could have gone with a Mass Effect version of a Shkadov Thruster without trivializing the scale of the universe or breaking their own rules. Throw a series of mass generators, like the Turians had on Menae to keep an atmosphere present, around a brown dwarf star. Through the application of controlled mass fields you can both force the star to ignite into a red dwarf while also making it 'light enough' that a Shkadov Thruster could begin to work within a reasonable timeframe. As the star begins to move it would pull any orbiting satellites along with it; which would be the perfect place to build habitation shelters for the population. Any built up static charge of the mass effect generators could be discharged into the star itself or into the orbiting moon/asteroid field thereby keeping the rules of the setting in place, and the longer the thruster applies force to it's host star the faster it will move; even more with the added benefits of a mass effect field; so a timeframe of 600 - 1000 years is not entirely implausible.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Nov 7, 2022 17:49:38 GMT
ME:A already broke one of the fundamental rules of the setting with their magical ODYSSEY drives that never need to be discharged. This wasn’t a fundamental rule. The drives in Reapers or ships using their technology like the Collectors don’t need to discharge either. The reason why our drives before ODSY did is because they followed the crumbs left behind by the Reapers that limited us thus making the harvests more effective.
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Post by Croatsky on Nov 7, 2022 17:52:36 GMT
Maybe but there's a billion years+ of galactic history of which we know nothing. Any information we have is based on the claims of the Reapers and Leviathans. It's in their best interests to make us believe no one can escape them. Really, though, why couldn't a race have escaped?
I still think the Jardaan are going to be what links Andromeda and the MW in some fashion. Maybe it wasn't the original intent but with no MEA2 happening that plan could have been revised. I doubt reconnecting with the MW was ever in their plans.
Lack of Mass Relays in Andromeda suggest otherwise.
Kett Empire is a very large empire, but they have nothing like Mass Relays to use for instant transport, relying instead on cryo pods to transport across the stars. In fact they don't have instant communications across galaxy either. Archon was able to use the Scourge as excuse to not report to the Kett Senate on timely manner for 39 cycles( years?) and timely reports are meant to be every 15 cycles. When Primus finally takes over, she re-establishes contact with the Kett Senate and is waiting for reinforcements that are probably years away.
Why, oh why, would Jardaan just create Mass Relay technology millions of years ago, drop it in Milky Way, then leave while not producing any Mass Relays in Andromeda???
And Kett appears to be unfamiliar with Jardaan until after they reach Heleus cluster, as well have no idea what the Scourge is nor who launched it at Jardaan there. Clearly pointing to far lesser communications and transportation across Andromeda galaxy unlike back in Milky Way.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Nov 7, 2022 17:53:45 GMT
Realistically, I doubt that MEA will be totally absent/ignored, but I’d be amazed if it’s the primary focus of the new game. BW are in the last chance saloon with ME, another failure and I can’t see them getting another go. That being the case I expect BW to run to safe ground, which will be predominantly returning to the MW with a secondary tie to Andromeda in some form. The danger here is that they’ll try to compromise for people who DID like MEA and those that DIDN’T, and could end up frustrating everyone. You’re ignoring the elephant in the room. The Milky Way isn’t as safe a ground as you’re suggesting since there are multiple choices that occur in ME3 that drastically shape it in different directions.
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Post by Vortex13 on Nov 7, 2022 17:54:02 GMT
ME:A already broke one of the fundamental rules of the setting with their magical ODYSSEY drives that never need to be discharged. This wasn’t a fundamental rule. The drives in Reapers or ships using their technology like the Collectors don’t need to discharge either. The reason why our drives before ODSY did is because they followed the crumbs left behind by the Reapers that limited us thus making the harvests more effective. It was still a rule in how it explained why alien species hadn't colonized every visible star in existence. If being able to go faster than light, with no drawbacks, is possible then the entire universe is up for grabs; which is the point of my initial post. There needs to be guardrails in place for a setting, otherwise when conflict arises you can just run over to where the grass is greener and leave your problems behind.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Nov 7, 2022 18:08:59 GMT
This wasn’t a fundamental rule. The drives in Reapers or ships using their technology like the Collectors don’t need to discharge either. The reason why our drives before ODSY did is because they followed the crumbs left behind by the Reapers that limited us thus making the harvests more effective. It was still a rule in how it explained why alien species hadn't colonized every visible star in existence. If being able to go faster than light, with no drawbacks, is possible then the entire universe is up for grabs; which is the point of my initial post. There needs to be guardrails in place for a setting, otherwise when conflict arises you can just run over to where the grass is greener and leave your problems behind. And that rule was later explained not to have been set by the universe but the antagonists. Except that it took an absolutely absurd amount of money and resources, many from unknown origins, to even create a few of those drives. Hardly something accessible to everyone. Even if they connect the two galaxies physically in a way like a Mass Relay, we’re still very much trapped in a mind-bogglingly tiny fraction of the universe. It took 634 years to get to our closest neighbor galaxy (not counting dwarf galaxies). It would take a lot longer to reach other galactic clusters. There are still limitations in place.
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Post by dmc1001 on Nov 7, 2022 18:23:01 GMT
Lack of Mass Relays in Andromeda suggest otherwise.Why, oh why, would Jardaan just create Mass Relay technology millions of years ago, drop it in Milky Way, then leave while not producing any Mass Relays in Andromeda??? Lack of relays in one cluster doesn't suggest anything. I still don't see why the Meridian couldn't be revamped to be a relay, especially if built by a race that fled the Reapers. In fact, that would solve the idea that no relays are there.
If you don't want Reapers following you maybe don't have active relays to draw their attention? Hence, the Meridian is an inactive relay.
But, really, will be a connection. I'm just trying to make it work.
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Post by Croatsky on Nov 7, 2022 19:03:48 GMT
Lack of Mass Relays in Andromeda suggest otherwise.Why, oh why, would Jardaan just create Mass Relay technology millions of years ago, drop it in Milky Way, then leave while not producing any Mass Relays in Andromeda??? Lack of relays in one cluster doesn't suggest anything. I still don't see why the Meridian couldn't be revamped to be a relay, especially if built by a race that fled the Reapers. In fact, that would solve the idea that no relays are there.
If you don't want Reapers following you maybe don't have active relays to draw their attention? Hence, the Meridian is an inactive relay.
But, really, will be a connection. I'm just trying to make it work.
???
Did you just ignored all my points about Kett Empire?
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Post by SofaJockey on Nov 7, 2022 19:21:46 GMT
Realistically, I doubt that MEA will be totally absent/ignored, but I’d be amazed if it’s the primary focus of the new game. BW are in the last chance saloon with ME, another failure and I can’t see them getting another go. I also doubt a full-blown MEA sequel, but more of a trilogy follow-up with threads from MEA. As for 'the last chance saloon', Dragon Age Dreadwolf is going to have a huge impact, whether that game is a flop or triumph will hugely colour the launch of Mass Effect 5.
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Post by dmc1001 on Nov 10, 2022 16:00:05 GMT
But that was the whole (secret) point of the Andromeda Initiative was it not? To flee Reapers and ensure the survival of the major Milky Way species? Did it? I thought it started out with Garson wanting to do some silly sightseeing adventure in a far reaching place? Wasn't it after the benefactor shows up flashing coin in her face that the project turns into fleeing the Milky Way? Yes, this is the case. They'd done the research and planned to go. They went ahead of schedule because of the Reapers, though almost none of them knew it.
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Post by Vortex13 on Nov 10, 2022 16:50:03 GMT
Did it? I thought it started out with Garson wanting to do some silly sightseeing adventure in a far reaching place? Wasn't it after the benefactor shows up flashing coin in her face that the project turns into fleeing the Milky Way? Yes, this is the case. They'd done the research and planned to go. They went ahead of schedule because of the Reapers, though almost none of them knew it. Which aside from the current discussion always struck me as ludicrous given the nature of the setting. I could buy a cover story about the AI being explorers going to Andromeda to pioneer etc but the fact that Garson wanted to go before the impending Reaper invasion was a thing is just bizarre to the point of breaking immersion for me. That would be like a person in the present day real world wanting to travel straight to Proxima Centauri b while completely ignoring the rest of our solar system, and any possible resources it might contain, because they want to be a 'pioneer'. Yeah technically that would be true, but you would be ignoring 99.999999999999999999% of much more feasible destinations; all of which have been unexplored by humans.
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Post by azarhal on Nov 10, 2022 17:23:29 GMT
Yes, this is the case. They'd done the research and planned to go. They went ahead of schedule because of the Reapers, though almost none of them knew it. Which aside from the current discussion always struck me as ludicrous given the nature of the setting. I could buy a cover story about the AI being explorers going to Andromeda to pioneer etc but the fact that Garson wanted to go before the impending Reaper invasion was a thing is just bizarre to the point of breaking immersion for me. That would be like a person in the present day real world wanting to travel straight to Proxima Centauri b while completely ignoring the rest of our solar system, and any possible resources it might contain, because they want to be a 'pioneer'. Yeah technically that would be true, but you would be ignoring 99.999999999999999999% of much more feasible destinations; all of which have been unexplored by humans. You mean like the Manswell Expedition in the Mass Effect setting. They left in 2075 and Manswell did it because he was frustrated by the pace of official space exploration. Garson's plan was the same one as Manswell, but to another Galaxy instead.
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Post by themikefest on Nov 10, 2022 17:50:02 GMT
Did it? I thought it started out with Garson wanting to do some silly sightseeing adventure in a far reaching place? Wasn't it after the benefactor shows up flashing coin in her face that the project turns into fleeing the Milky Way? Yes, this is the case. They'd done the research and planned to go. They went ahead of schedule because of the Reapers, though almost none of them knew it. Overall, I do agree with those saying it was stupid. MEA would make sense happening after ME3. It would explain how the drives were built instead of some hocus-pocus crap. It would explain building the sam voice crap and other stuff. Have it happen when it did, did not make sense. The benefactor having whatever information about something, something, decides to help some woman with a silly project wanting to do some sightseeing instead informing the council about something, something while providing x amount resources to help. I would be curious if Jein 'I can't balance my checkbook' Garson, didn't come up with her silly sightseeing adventure, would the benefactor have sat back watching the reapers harvest the galaxy without providing any aid?
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Post by Vortex13 on Nov 10, 2022 18:37:24 GMT
Which aside from the current discussion always struck me as ludicrous given the nature of the setting. I could buy a cover story about the AI being explorers going to Andromeda to pioneer etc but the fact that Garson wanted to go before the impending Reaper invasion was a thing is just bizarre to the point of breaking immersion for me. That would be like a person in the present day real world wanting to travel straight to Proxima Centauri b while completely ignoring the rest of our solar system, and any possible resources it might contain, because they want to be a 'pioneer'. Yeah technically that would be true, but you would be ignoring 99.999999999999999999% of much more feasible destinations; all of which have been unexplored by humans. You mean like the Manswell Expedition in the Mass Effect setting. They left in 2075 and Manswell did it because he was frustrated by the pace of official space exploration. Garson's plan was the same one as Manswell, but to another Galaxy instead. So Garson thought that the ~99% of unexplored space in our own galaxy wasn't feasible enough for her? She could have just as easily set off an expedition in our own galaxy, not unlike the explorers did trying to find Illos right before ME 1. But instead she thinks it would be much more practical to travel 2 million light years. Which, again, points back to my original problem with ME:A and the (speculation) that we will be seeing Andromeda and the Milky Way interacting in ME:Next. Namely that space is really really BIG. In the Words of Neil deGrasse Tyson: "The distances of space are incommensurate with the longevity of our biological form"By trivializing the scale of distances involved BioWare has essentially broken their universe. What's to stop the milky way races from using their magical ODDYSY drives and flying off to the edge of the universe? Or even the multiverse? What kind of antagonist can threaten such a society that is now technically omnipresent? Reapers in the Milky Way? Just fly off to Andromeda. Problems there? Go to M87 or HD1. It's not like the scale of distances involved are any sort of issue to people now anymore anyways.
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azarhal
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Post by azarhal on Nov 10, 2022 18:58:28 GMT
You mean like the Manswell Expedition in the Mass Effect setting. They left in 2075 and Manswell did it because he was frustrated by the pace of official space exploration. Garson's plan was the same one as Manswell, but to another Galaxy instead. So Garson thought that the ~99% of unexplored space in our own galaxy wasn't feasible enough for her? She could have just as easily set off an expedition in our own galaxy, not unlike the explorers did trying to find Illos right before ME 1. But instead she thinks it would be much more practical to travel 2 million light years. You can't explore that 99% legally without Council approval and they love starting war if you reopen relays without their approval. It makes exploration outside of Council approved "friends" near inexistent. People not liking how the Council stonewall exploration/research is a recurring theme in the series. The only way to not have to deal with the Council was to run off to another Galaxy and the NPCs in MEA talks about it being one of the goals. Also, we already have someone on Earth who is planning to colonize Mars and do extra solar system expedition before we even have a base on the Moon.
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Post by ClarkKent on Nov 11, 2022 8:26:14 GMT
So Garson thought that the ~99% of unexplored space in our own galaxy wasn't feasible enough for her? She could have just as easily set off an expedition in our own galaxy, not unlike the explorers did trying to find Illos right before ME 1. But instead she thinks it would be much more practical to travel 2 million light years. You can't explore that 99% legally without Council approval and they love starting war if you reopen relays without their approval. It makes exploration outside of Council approved "friends" near inexistent. People not liking how the Council stonewall exploration/research is a recurring theme in the series. The only way to not have to deal with the Council was to run off to another Galaxy and the NPCs in MEA talks about it being one of the goals. Also, we already have someone on Earth who is planning to colonize Mars and do extra solar system expedition before we even have a base on the Moon. War with who? The initiative is an independent organisation made up of many species with incompetence being the only base entry requirement. And in this situation I doubt any relays would be opened. That would attract Reapers. You could send off an ark ship to a distant system and by the time anyone catches on there would be a galactic war with the reapers anyway.
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MegaIllusiveMan
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I've revived Shepard, but I'm sending him in a Suicide Mission.
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by MegaIllusiveMan on Nov 26, 2022 23:24:06 GMT
New characters don’t necessarily need to live up to the legacy characters as they were at the end of the trilogy, they just need to make enough of a mark to put them on a par with end of ME1 legacy characters. MEA didn’t do that. It was also far less effective in building its world. I didn’t care for the characters particularly. Even less so for the Kett and the Remnant who both just came across as antagonists-by-numbers. The amount of speculating and theorising that people did between ME1 and ME2 and between ME2 and ME3 was insane. By the end of MEA I actually didn’t have that much that I was interested in pondering upon. I don't really agree here. Tali was just a walking Codex and Garrus was the old vigilante-trope that got fed up with the system and decided to go against it. Wrex had cool dialogues, Ash was a racist and Kaidan had migraines. I would say that many people see ME1 companions more as to what they become rather than what they were. If we were on 2007 still, I doubt that "Oh god, Garrus is so cool as in Space batman" conversations would pop out. IMO, this is the opinion on Andromeda's characters as of now. Also, maybe people got redirected to think about other things, but I'm 100% sure that many on these forums were involved in the "Who's the Benefactor Theory" and quite some time discussed the Jaardan and Kett. To be fair, it has been 5 years, so wouldn't see much discussion of it around anymore, same as with the endings.
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ahglock
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Post by ahglock on Dec 15, 2022 16:44:05 GMT
Yes, this is the case. They'd done the research and planned to go. They went ahead of schedule because of the Reapers, though almost none of them knew it. Overall, I do agree with those saying it was stupid. MEA would make sense happening after ME3. It would explain how the drives were built instead of some hocus-pocus crap. It would explain building the sam voice crap and other stuff. Have it happen when it did, did not make sense. The benefactor having whatever information about something, something, decides to help some woman with a silly project wanting to do some sightseeing instead informing the council about something, something while providing x amount resources to help. I would be curious if Jein 'I can't balance my checkbook' Garson, didn't come up with her silly sightseeing adventure, would the benefactor have sat back watching the reapers harvest the galaxy without providing any aid?
I don't mind the timing of it but it should have been a full refugee/survival of the council species plot from the council. The site seeing explorers part was just dumb. Have the people picked to go not based on hey whose dumb enough to do this, but solid people who supposedly could restart civilization. and they would all know why they are going. Have the pathfinder show up with the first ark, so they actually you know path find instead of fix the real trailblazers screw ups.
The drive explain its from the parts found on dead reaper in the citadel. They figured it out but not in time to retrofit fleets but they could make a ark. Why Andromeda, well they know reapers scour the galaxy clean and they don't want to rely on picking the right solar system. And with it taking 600 years it puts in on the timeline of how long they expect the reapers to be active. So once they arrive they can try to contact the MM galaxy with a low risk.
You could even have a fun prologue where you play as a black ops team going in and killing all remaining people who know of the mission in the MW and destroying all evidence.
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Post by hulluliini on Dec 16, 2022 8:51:18 GMT
You could even have a fun prologue where you play as a black ops team going in and killing all remaining people who know of the mission in the MW and destroying all evidence.
Your definition of "fun" is interesting
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