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Post by colfoley on Dec 10, 2024 5:11:42 GMT
- WuKong - Shadow of the Erdtree - Genshin Impact - Zoneless Zero - Wuthering Waves Nice, a DLC, chinese third person action adventure game console slop, gambling slop, gambling slop, and more gambling slop. What's also amusing about the whole 'no slavery' thing is it's also pretty much the entire objective of the big bads and maybe, at least as much as any force of nature can have an objective, for the force behind the big bad. The Dumb Three has stated Manifesto or written one? or it's something we 'deduce' because he's bad and slavery must've be included in one of many bad things he would done? You're missing the point again. recurring theme. It doesn't stand out, it doesn't make a scene, it just is. If things just is, then show us that thing is. The critique is that people don't even notice that thing is, and feel that the thing isn't "Is". (Of course, (again!) ignoring the fact that there are Codex(es) from Dorian/Mae about how Slavery isn't just "is", but a "problem" - if things just IS, then half of Shadow Dragons ideology is just moot, isn't it?) Uh, no. It was a part of the main plot of the game and more then a few side plots within the game which we saw. The main quest I did today was to clear out slave escape tunnels of Darkspawn so the Shadow Dragons can again use them for rescuing saves. Plus we also discover that the Venatori were going to use said tunnels that the SDs were using to rescue slaves with.
Elgar'nan and Ghil'anain work with both the Venatori and Antaam specifically because both organizations are slavers and want to gather power for themselves. In the process of this in main and side quests we see multiple instances of blood sacrifice and examples of chattel slavery, some of which you may dismiss as 'cartoonishly evil' but that is part of the point when you treat humans as chattel.
Elgar'nan also mentally dominates Bellara/ Neve to use them as a Bight CPU and also several of the bad guys are seen using magical domination of people and the gods even try and tempt the party and mentally dominate the entire party at various times. Granted this slavery is more 'supernatural/ fantasy' then real life chattel slavery but it still counts.
All to say that the gods main motivation is to blight the world in order to restablish their dominion over the world, enslaving everyone, and rebuilding their empire. slavery is one of the few universally agreed upon evils in the world. So the only people who tend to support it are bad guys...or ignorant guys. What he meant was more like showing something like this: A starving family's husband, for example selling himself to slavery to earn money to feed his family, and that it works! That's the shade of grey! It's not just about bad man bad slaving. It's about the system also has (somewhat) positive utilization, like Dorian said, in Inquisition!  Edit. Writing this so that people don't miss the point: The point of the critique is that there isn't enough storytelling like this that make Veilguard writing bland like a boiled chicken breast! Sure. As I have argued the power of fiction is often to include such awesome hypothetical questions as 'in what circumstances is slavery good' and its something that Dragon Age and Game of Thrones has brought up and even in our real history there are a few examples of such things. However, that does not stop such things from being a deeply corrupting force and the argument has two problems. 1. DOrian already did bring this up hence Dragon Age has already brought up the plot point. Dragon Age/ Veilguard does not need to keep on bringing up the same philosophical plot points over and over again to be effective. As I mentioned once is sufficient and if you keep on having a conversation of 'slavery is bad but...' arguments over and over again one could be forgiven for finding such concepts stale and wondering if BioWare is trying to make a 'slavery is good' statement. This is especially true when Inquisition only included it as a way of A. having Dorian go on a minor character arc on the subject, the results of which we see in Veilguard, and B. to show how institutionalized and 'normal' slavery is in Tevinter...something Veilguard references and expands on. 2. Such things are still dangerous as hell. Yes, principles of IDIC and general philosophy dictates that it is theoretically possible that a slave or group of slaves might need to sell themselves into slavery and find a benovolent master. But this does not change the fact that such a relationship is inherently open to abuse. As an analogy blood magic is not inherently evil, but it is so dangerous and corrupting that it is dangerous even if one uses it for 'noble' purposes. And we have seen a lot of pieces of entertainment discuss why this sort of thing is dangerous. Inquisition, Veilguard, Hogwarts Legacy, and Dragon Age Absolution to name a few. And besides the main issue here is even if such a slave is lucky enough to find a benovolent master the fact they have to sell themselves into slavery is also an indictment on any system that such a situation exists in by itself. And yes, I understand the point. But I inherently disagree with it as I do any time what I call 'matter of degrees come up.' Because such conversations are vague and ultimatley irrelevant and feels arbitrary. Veilguard talks up slavery in multiple main quests, multiple side quests, and has a side quest specifically devoted to the issue, an entire faction, an entire region, and basically touches on it in four different plotlines. What is 'enough' here, 10 main quests, 20 side quests, and 15 plot lines? What arbirary numbers are acceptable to you?
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Post by andorvex on Dec 10, 2024 5:15:49 GMT
slavery is one of the few universally agreed upon evils in the world. So the only people who tend to support it are bad guys...or ignorant guys. What he meant was more like showing something like this: A starving family's husband, for example selling himself to slavery to earn money to feed his family, and that it works! That's the shade of grey! It's not just about bad man bad slaving. It's about the system also has (somewhat) positive utilization, like Dorian said, in Inquisition! Edit. Writing this so that people don't miss the point: The point of the critique is that there isn't enough storytelling like this that make Veilguard writing bland like a boiled chicken breast! Maybe I didn't pay enough attention in inquisition, but the most memorable talk I had with Dorian was exactly about that and that specific short talk in which he explains how he sees slavery was the moment I fell in love with the character, strangely enough. He didn't turn me into a slavery supporter, but his outlook made him suddenly feel like a real person from a real place, flawed as it might be |
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Post by DragonKingReborn on Dec 10, 2024 5:26:40 GMT
Continue the discussion here, thanks - Schmooples Den is for discussion of news items. Not free range dissection of themes or events within the game.
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Post by colfoley on Dec 10, 2024 5:36:07 GMT
Point of order I don't think I can but it might help to add a spoiler tag to the title if possible.
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Post by DragonKingReborn on Dec 10, 2024 5:37:44 GMT
Point of order I don't think I can but it might help to add a spoiler tag to the title if possible. I don't understand. What part of the title should be considered a spoiler?
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Post by colfoley on Dec 10, 2024 5:40:24 GMT
Point of order I don't think I can but it might help to add a spoiler tag to the title if possible. I don't understand. What part of the title should be considered a spoiler? the idea that we might be spoiling the game by the discussion. One of the reasons I thought schmooples might have been locked...aside from the obvious. |
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Post by DragonKingReborn on Dec 10, 2024 5:41:54 GMT
I don't understand. What part of the title should be considered a spoiler? the idea that we might be spoiling the game by the discussion. One of the reasons I thought schmooples might have been locked...aside from the obvious. I'm missing something. Which specific words would you change, and to what? I'm happy to change it, but I'm not sure what you consider about it to be spoilery in nature.
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Post by DragonKingReborn on Dec 10, 2024 5:59:44 GMT
Never mind - just realised you meant a general tag, in that 'spoilers can be discussed in this thread'. Is that right?
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Post by Reznore on Dec 10, 2024 10:33:03 GMT
Slavery is awful. But if you have a country whole economy/ war machine etc...relying on it for hundred and hundred of years simply going we're going to abolish it see you next game is not the best.
Slavery is also intertwined with the class system in Tevinter.
In Veilguard, you get mostly Altus debating slavery, the higher classes, saying we should free the peons it's unjust. And not really slaves themselves.
Not sure how much of an empowering narrative this is. The act of resistance are mostly done by non slaves. I think the Shadow Dragons you got one ex slave who is the faction merchant?
So one of the best ex slave character we got was Fenris. Back in DA2.
In DA2 Fenris after a life of obedience was fully pissed and defiant. Hating mages who enslaved him on principle. His sister wanted to work with the system, even if she had to backstab a fellow slave.
Calpernia was also fairly grey, she wanted a system when the best wouldn't be enslaved. But I don't know how she imagined Cory would abolish slavery?
We used to have slaves running to the Qun. Still a very rigid system.
Etc...Slaves weren't an unknown mass waiting to get freed, they were shown as people with different ideas, struggling within a cruel system.
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Post by colfoley on Dec 10, 2024 11:17:03 GMT
Slavery is awful. But if you have a country whole economy/ war machine etc...relying on it for hundred and hundred of years simply going we're going to abolish it see you next game is not the best. Slavery is also intertwined with the class system in Tevinter. In Veilguard, you get mostly Altus debating slavery, the higher classes, saying we should free the peons it's unjust. And not really slaves themselves. Not sure how much of an empowering narrative this is. The act of resistance are mostly done by non slaves. I think the Shadow Dragons you got one ex slave who is the faction merchant? So one of the best ex slave character we got was Fenris. Back in DA2. In DA2 Fenris after a life of obedience was fully pissed and defiant. Hating mages who enslaved him on principle. His sister wanted to work with the system, even if she had to backstab a fellow slave. Calpernia was also fairly grey, she wanted a system when the best wouldn't be enslaved. But I don't know how she imagined Cory would abolish slavery? We used to have slaves running to the Qun. Still a very rigid system. Etc...Slaves weren't an unknown mass waiting to get freed, they were shown as people with different ideas, struggling within a cruel system. Not what actually happened though. As with a previous conversation I had on this issue we don't exactly know where this plot line is going to go because it hasn't happened yet. Sure it could be resolved by the time we get to DA 5, it could be resolved in expanded media, or it could be a long term plotline for future games to still play on.
Based on what we have seen with DA its probably far more likely to be the latter at least in some capacity. As I have mentioned DA is great about setting up incrimental changes over the course of their games but nothing has been ever dramatically resolved. The Circle Situation in the South is still somewhat in flux and somewhat had returned to the 'status quo' by the end of Inquisition, the Qunari have not been dealt with, the Crow issues have not been dealt with, there are still the outstanding problems relating to the Blight. These things have merely been hinted at by the epilogue but we also have a history in this franchise of ignoring or changing up the epilogue to suit the whims of the devs when the stories move in a different direction. Which may be bad riting but also has a certain realism to it. And that is also quite accurate to history. At least when it comes to the Abolition movement in the United States. The main advocacy for the abolition of slavery came from wealthy people in the North, New England, industrialists, upper class people. And the two biggest historical figures of the movement also happened to be ex slaves who were well off in the North and set up by and set up their own organizations in order to get more slaves out, namely Fredrick Douglas and Harriet Tubman. But in short either way the abolition of slavery in the States would've never happened without interested 'Altus' parties. Same thing with DA.
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Post by Reznore on Dec 10, 2024 12:30:25 GMT
And that is also quite accurate to history. At least when it comes to the Abolition movement in the United States. The main advocacy for the abolition of slavery came from wealthy people in the North, New England, industrialists, upper class people. And the two biggest historical figures of the movement also happened to be ex slaves who were well off in the North and set up by and set up their own organizations in order to get more slaves out, namely Fredrick Douglas and Harriet Tubman. But in short either way the abolition of slavery in the States would've never happened without interested 'Altus' parties. Same thing with DA. I'm no history expert but it was quite the drawn out process, with lots of folks doing all sorts of things, no?
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Post by colfoley on Dec 10, 2024 12:40:39 GMT
And that is also quite accurate to history. At least when it comes to the Abolition movement in the United States. The main advocacy for the abolition of slavery came from wealthy people in the North, New England, industrialists, upper class people. And the two biggest historical figures of the movement also happened to be ex slaves who were well off in the North and set up by and set up their own organizations in order to get more slaves out, namely Fredrick Douglas and Harriet Tubman. But in short either way the abolition of slavery in the States would've never happened without interested 'Altus' parties. Same thing with DA. I'm no history expert but it was quite the drawn out process, with lots of folks doing all sorts of things, no? Its also been a long drawn out process within the setting to. The current anti slavery movement in Tevinter actually started in Inquisition with the Lucerni...then the Shadow Dragons popped up somewhere in the intervening ten year period. The point is though that, you are right, people were doing things but abolition is not going to be successful in the Imperium without self consious magisters getting involved who think this is a bad idea. I mean unless we have an entire Night of the Long Knives situation or something just as violent which could even cause its own issues especially since the average Tevinter citizen hasn't been shown to be fully trusting of the militant arm of the Lucerni, AKA the Shadow Dragons.
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Post by mrobnoxiousuk on Dec 10, 2024 13:50:53 GMT
I was a little disappointed but not massively, I was at least expecting to see slaves everywhere as part of the Tevinter fabric of society. I always viewed Tevinter as like Byzantium but with mages and they missed such an oppurtunity to flesh out the society of Tevinter in which slaves are a ubiquitous underclass.
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Post by The Dread Pronoun on Dec 10, 2024 15:11:40 GMT
And that is also quite accurate to history. At least when it comes to the Abolition movement in the United States. The main advocacy for the abolition of slavery came from wealthy people in the North, New England, industrialists, upper class people. And the two biggest historical figures of the movement also happened to be ex slaves who were well off in the North and set up by and set up their own organizations in order to get more slaves out, namely Fredrick Douglas and Harriet Tubman. But in short either way the abolition of slavery in the States would've never happened without interested 'Altus' parties. Same thing with DA. Like GOAT class traitor John Brown, white militant abolitionist. Anyway, trying to keep track here... Veilguard Pros: Fun gameplay Veilguard Cons: No fair and balanced debates on the economic benefits of slavery, no female elf rape
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Post by mrobnoxiousuk on Dec 10, 2024 15:54:25 GMT
And that is also quite accurate to history. At least when it comes to the Abolition movement in the United States. The main advocacy for the abolition of slavery came from wealthy people in the North, New England, industrialists, upper class people. And the two biggest historical figures of the movement also happened to be ex slaves who were well off in the North and set up by and set up their own organizations in order to get more slaves out, namely Fredrick Douglas and Harriet Tubman. But in short either way the abolition of slavery in the States would've never happened without interested 'Altus' parties. Same thing with DA. Like GOAT class traitor John Brown, white militant abolitionist. Anyway, trying to keep track here... Veilguard Pros: Fun gameplay Veilguard Cons: No fair and balanced debates on the economic benefits of slavery, no female elf rape A bit of a logical fallacy but whatever. Keep up your attacks it makes for interesting reading.
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Post by Rien on Dec 10, 2024 16:00:10 GMT
Just pointing out something here, "fun" is a matter of personal taste. "Badly written" on the other hand, is not.
There are specific stylistic features marking the difference between a well-written story and a poorly written one.
(Ask me why I know this? I know because it's my field of study.)
Is it possible for a poorly written story to be liked a lot and be entertaining? Yes, because it's a matter of personal taste.
Does this make it objectively less poorly written? No.
(It looks off topic, it is not.)
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Post by wickedcool on Dec 10, 2024 16:30:53 GMT
So I don’t need to see brutality like we did in origins but thinking a little bit about this last night
Tevinter nights literally has a story that takes place in tevinter. We know solas is rescuing slaves early on but we see no evidence of any of it! If you hadn’t played dragon age at all I would argue in act 1 that the crows are having a much tougher go of it than the people of minrathous.
If I were to add dlc or mods
1 Copy and paste the revise rescue mission with the crow in the cage. Make a mission
2 the only bad people we see are pop up tevinter bad people. Would have been cool to see a slaver boat etc or some non race bed bad people like every other da game
3 we see in treviisio some star harassing people for paperwork. Other than the opening scene we don’t see anything like this again. Kirkwall seemed much more dangerous? Copy and paste and change out the ataar for something else
4 would be nice if we were harassed as we are outsiders. We get more harassment from the leaders we help and the warden commander. I got harrassed more in Skyrim winterhold as a non nord than I did in tevinter. Add some dialogue from one of those semi static npcs that you have to hover over to hear. Get some tech person to record a line or 2
5 not a single companion comments on beggars. I love the immersion of it but once again add some dialogue
6 in tevisiio we see some hand painted signs etc. how about some free the spaces or rebel etc spray paint signs
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Post by smilesja on Dec 10, 2024 16:36:33 GMT
So the only people we see in the game doing slavery are the "bad guys"? No shades of grey or characters debating the issue? If you expect me to feel sorry for a bunch of unrepentant slavers, then you’re going extremely disappointed. I know people here are obsessed “moral ambiguity” but there are lines that you shouldn’t cross and slavery is one of them. |
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Post by kalreegar on Dec 10, 2024 16:37:28 GMT
The "Tevinter Imperium" as depicted in Veilguard, in terms of politics, society, military, etc. has, at best, the complexity and depth of a small city-state.
there are the boring common people who live their ordinary lives between taverns and streets, and there are the bad Venatori who want power, and there is the resistance that wants to prevent this.
Literally: the end.
For the historically oldest, politically and culturally most complex state in thedas... what a waste.
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Post by The Dread Pronoun on Dec 10, 2024 17:16:16 GMT
Veilguard Pros: Fun gameplay
Veilguard Cons: No fair and balanced debates on the economic benefits of slavery, no female elf rape, objectively bad writing because reasons
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Post by andydandymandy on Dec 10, 2024 18:34:46 GMT
So the only people we see in the game doing slavery are the "bad guys"? No shades of grey or characters debating the issue? slavery is one of the few universally agreed upon evils in the world. So the only people who tend to support it are bad guys...or ignorant guys.
But slavery is such a part of Tevinter that "free all the slaves" would have massive ripple affects and consequences on it in the short term (even if long term its what needs to happen). Point is that its a messy situation. Does the game deal with those ideas at all, or address those ideas? Because logically there is no clean cut solution to the problem, because slavery is too systematic in Tevinter for there to be a clean cut solution to it. Does the game even scratch the service of this aspect at all?
That is the heart of what I am getting at. Not whether its good or bad, but how in-bedded it is into Tevinter and what the characters in the game think about it, and how to "fix" the problem and what that would take (and cost).
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Post by smilesja on Dec 10, 2024 19:38:36 GMT
The "Tevinter Imperium" as depicted in Veilguard, in terms of politics, society, military, etc. has, at best, the complexity and depth of a small city-state. there are the boring common people who live their ordinary lives between taverns and streets, and there are the bad Venatori who want power, and there is the resistance that wants to prevent this. Literally: the end. For the historically oldest, politically and culturally most complex state in thedas... what a waste. So basically like real life? |
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Post by GoldenGail3 on Dec 11, 2024 1:17:03 GMT
I wanted to see Tevinter mages doing a game of thrones Valyrian thing and making unnatural chimeras out of their slaves (looking at Fenris, I definitely do think that they do... messed up things to their slaves lol). Tevinter should be a messed up place, because after all, it's the place where the Magisters who brought about the Blight came from.
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Post by VARMAELEN on Dec 11, 2024 10:53:20 GMT
Okay. The main quest I did today was to clear out slave escape tunnels of Darkspawn so the Shadow Dragons can again use them for rescuing saves. Plus we also discover that the Venatori were going to use said tunnels that the SDs were using to rescue slaves with. Notice you say "[they] said" more than actually "Do" and "See". Yes there is a road, I'm asking where are the cars? The main quest I did today was to clear out slave escape tunnels of Darkspawn so the Shadow Dragons can again use them for rescuing saves. Plus we also discover that the Venatori were going to use said tunnels that the SDs were using to rescue slaves with. Same above. Elgar'nan and Ghil'anain work with both the Venatori and Antaam specifically because both organizations are slavers and want to gather power for themselves. In the process of this in main and side quests we see multiple instances of blood sacrifice and examples of chattel slavery, some of which you may dismiss as 'cartoonishly evil' but that is part of the point when you treat humans as chattel. That both Main antagonist uses Antaam and Venatori because they like power, that's being said repeatedly, however saying that because they're slaving too are actually not. There are sufficient prove that people who side with Elg and Ghil are people that wants power. Nowhere, and I mean Nowhere in the conversation that both Elg and Ghil ever said -specifically- that because either Antaam or Venatori are Slaver as one of the reason of them lured to serve them, nowhere. Nowhere in the conversation for each bosses that Slavery ever mentioned once. That's a reach, one which you actually have no basis to claim.Elgar'nan also mentally dominates Bellara/ Neve to use them as a Bight CPU and also several of the bad guys are seen using magical domination of people and the gods even try and tempt the party and mentally dominate the entire party at various times. Granted this slavery is more 'supernatural/ fantasy' then real life chattel slavery but it still counts. No, it doesn't count. Slavery and mental control isn't the same as Slavery as in the controversial topic of act of owning another person as property. Nobody but you, who think that this one story device as parallel to slavery. Again, this is a reach and this is getting embarrassing, no offense. All to say that the gods main motivation is to blight the world in order to restablish their dominion over the world, enslaving everyone, and rebuilding their empire. And that is called "SUBJUGATION". Maker's breath. Now I can't really say I'm looking forward reading your review. |
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VARMAELEN
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by VARMAELEN on Dec 11, 2024 11:05:21 GMT
1. DOrian already did bring this up hence Dragon Age has already brought up the plot point. Dragon Age/ Veilguard does not need to keep on bringing up the same philosophical plot points over and over again to be effective. As I mentioned once is sufficient and if you keep on having a conversation of 'slavery is bad but...' arguments over and over again one could be forgiven for finding such concepts stale and wondering if BioWare is trying to make a 'slavery is good' statement. This is especially true when Inquisition only included it as a way of A. having Dorian go on a minor character arc on the subject, the results of which we see in Veilguard, and B. to show how institutionalized and 'n ormal' slavery is in Tevinter...something Veilguard references and expands on. It's not about effective (Veilguard is not effectively nor sufficiently explained the topic, by the way) nor stale. It's Minrathous. And the Codexes. IF Minrathous Slavery was normal, SHOW US - because the game IS NOT showing us the normalcy of slavery in Tevinter, if at all. 2. Such things are still dangerous as hell. Yes, principles of IDIC and general philosophy dictates that it is theoretically possible that a slave or group of slaves might need to sell themselves into slavery and find a benovolent master. But this does not change the fact that such a relationship is inherently open to abuse. As an analogy blood magic is not inherently evil, but it is so dangerous and corrupting that it is dangerous even if one uses it for 'noble' purposes. And we have seen a lot of pieces of entertainment discuss why this sort of thing is dangerous. Inquisition, Veilguard, Hogwarts Legacy, and Dragon Age Absolution to name a few. And besides the main issue here is even if such a slave is lucky enough to find a benovolent master the fact they have to sell themselves into slavery is also an indictment on any system that such a situation exists in by itself. YES, and it WOULD'VE been nice if the game explored this topic isn't? But it isn't.  So we never know. And yes, I understand the point. But I inherently disagree with it as I do any time what I call 'matter of degrees come up.' Because such conversations are vague and ultimatley irrelevant and feels arbitrary. Veilguard talks up slavery in multiple main quests, multiple side quests, and has a side quest specifically devoted to the issue, an entire faction, an entire region, and basically touches on it in four different plotlines. What is 'enough' here, 10 main quests, 20 side quests, and 15 plot lines? What arbirary numbers are acceptable to you? A side quest? in a City where Slavery is normal and in a city where one of the magister is ousted for their view for slavery? A side quest? Insufficient. |
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So we never know.