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Post by VARMAELEN on Dec 11, 2024 11:12:38 GMT
I am asking you all, what political or philosophical weight of choosing either Maeveris or Dorian to lead the "Revolution", so to speak, if the reason of said Revolution is barely seen?
If I see an elf slave being beaten in the street or raped or pushing themselves into prostitution and seen as normal by passing Dock Town folk (because it's normal) - I would've pick Dorian, because the game said, Dorian's way probably more violent and unpredictable - but at some point, violence can and will stabilize the situation into more agreeable status quo/stand off (in political sense).
Because to me Dock Town is downright a tourist area with Cat Cafe I might aswell looking for possible permanent residence because apart from Venatori (bad actors) which every country in Thedas has their own equivalent to - there is no reason to avoid dock town or tevinter at all, as an elf.
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Post by VARMAELEN on Dec 11, 2024 11:20:28 GMT
Found this on xitter:: Take a look how many keyword regarding some topic in previous trilogy vs Veilguard. We know some big faith shaking revelations about the Maker/Chantry/Chant, it barely made a footnote. Insufficient.
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Post by colfoley on Dec 11, 2024 11:28:53 GMT
1. DOrian already did bring this up hence Dragon Age has already brought up the plot point. Dragon Age/ Veilguard does not need to keep on bringing up the same philosophical plot points over and over again to be effective. As I mentioned once is sufficient and if you keep on having a conversation of 'slavery is bad but...' arguments over and over again one could be forgiven for finding such concepts stale and wondering if BioWare is trying to make a 'slavery is good' statement. This is especially true when Inquisition only included it as a way of A. having Dorian go on a minor character arc on the subject, the results of which we see in Veilguard, and B. to show how institutionalized and 'n ormal' slavery is in Tevinter...something Veilguard references and expands on. It's not about effective (Veilguard is not effectively nor sufficiently explained the topic, by the way) nor stale. It's Minrathous. And the Codexes. IF Minrathous Slavery was normal, SHOW US - because the game IS NOT showing us the normalcy of slavery in Tevinter, if at all. 2. Such things are still dangerous as hell. Yes, principles of IDIC and general philosophy dictates that it is theoretically possible that a slave or group of slaves might need to sell themselves into slavery and find a benovolent master. But this does not change the fact that such a relationship is inherently open to abuse. As an analogy blood magic is not inherently evil, but it is so dangerous and corrupting that it is dangerous even if one uses it for 'noble' purposes. And we have seen a lot of pieces of entertainment discuss why this sort of thing is dangerous. Inquisition, Veilguard, Hogwarts Legacy, and Dragon Age Absolution to name a few. And besides the main issue here is even if such a slave is lucky enough to find a benovolent master the fact they have to sell themselves into slavery is also an indictment on any system that such a situation exists in by itself. YES, and it WOULD'VE been nice if the game explored this topic isn't? But it isn't. So we never know. And yes, I understand the point. But I inherently disagree with it as I do any time what I call 'matter of degrees come up.' Because such conversations are vague and ultimatley irrelevant and feels arbitrary. Veilguard talks up slavery in multiple main quests, multiple side quests, and has a side quest specifically devoted to the issue, an entire faction, an entire region, and basically touches on it in four different plotlines. What is 'enough' here, 10 main quests, 20 side quests, and 15 plot lines? What arbirary numbers are acceptable to you? A side quest? in a City where Slavery is normal and in a city where one of the magister is ousted for their view for slavery? A side quest? Insufficient. So here's the thing because there can be some vagueness on this general topic I suppose and it depends on how far one wants to go down the slavery rabbit hole and whether or not we want to include things like just straight up normal tyranny. Like intellectually I know that slavery, specifically, is not that big of a focus in Veilguard or Veilguard's plot so I can never logically make the claim that it is. However, if we are to only include slavery specifically for Veilguard then what about the rest of Dragon Age? A single conversation in Inquisition, a single quest chain in 2, and a single quest in Origins. Again as I have mentioned we can talk about matters of degree till we are blue in the face but the bottom line is that Veilguard talks about slavery about as much as the previous DA games. But then what DA has always done has been to deal with more generalized and subtle forms of tyranny and to always have conversations about them. DAs writers tend to be very smart about how such things as normal. We, as the audience, can rightfully go on about how horrible the Qun is and how horrible Tevinter slavery is...but then look at the issue of the Chantry and tranquils? And, for me, DA has not lost that edge. That ability to discuss these things. It can be one quest, it can be ten, the quantity never matters, but the quality does. I am asking you all, what political or philosophical weight of choosing either Maeveris or Dorian to lead the "Revolution", so to speak, if the reason of said Revolution is barely seen? If I see an elf slave being beaten in the street or raped or pushing themselves into prostitution and seen as normal by passing Dock Town folk (because it's normal) - I would've pick Dorian, because the game said, Dorian's way probably more violent and unpredictable - but at some point, violence can and will stabilize the situation into more agreeable status quo/stand off (in political sense). Because to me Dock Town is downright a tourist area with Cat Cafe I might aswell looking for possible permanent residence because apart from Venatori (bad actors) which every country in Thedas has their own equivalent to - there is no reason to avoid dock town or tevinter at all, as an elf. Now this is nonsense. The game goes very far to show how bad and dangerous Dock Town is and Tevinter society is for everyone, not just Elves, and its hardly a tourist trap. We see the Venatori using mental manipulation on people to get there way, repeatedly, and we see the average Tevinter citizen be worried about gang warfare between the Venatori and Shadow Dragons. Also we see members of the Shadow Dragons who exist as ex-slaves who also happen to be Elves (the same Elves that Loghain sold into slavery in the first place). And its just like... again one of DAs strengths is its always punted these social issues down the road. How much reform did we actually see in the Orlesian Empire in Inquisition? Or the Circle System? The game always gives us the ability to make grandiose philosophical choices in theory but we rarely see them in practice because the games plots are always centered around dealing with whatever crisis/ big bad has risen up. The epilogue slides in each game usually makes some vague and flowery promise about what might happen, but we also know that they have retconned such things before because it didn't work long term. Now this is bad writing of course but it also speaks to something realistic since reform often does not stick. Same thing in Veilguard. We see people fighting in the revolution, we see us participate in it, especially as an SD Rook with Neve, but what kind of long term change will result from our actions is something that may, or may not, be touched on in the next game.
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Post by VARMAELEN on Dec 11, 2024 11:55:27 GMT
Ignoring that you replied to this post first, not the one where I debunked what seemingly your sub-optimal interpretation of the storytelling in my first post replying to you (You should reply to that one, too tbh). So here's the thing because there can be some vagueness on this general topic I suppose and it depends on how far one wants to go down the slavery rabbit hole and whether or not we want to include things like just straight up normal tyranny. Like intellectually I know that slavery, specifically, is not that big of a focus in Veilguard or Veilguard's plot so I can never logically make the claim that it is. However, if we are to only include slavery specifically for Veilguard then what about the rest of Dragon Age? A single conversation in Inquisition, a single quest chain in 2, and a single quest in Origins. Again as I have mentioned we can talk about matters of degree till we are blue in the face but the bottom line is that Veilguard talks about slavery about as much as the previous DA games. But then what DA has always done has been to deal with more generalized and subtle forms of tyranny and to always have conversations about them. DAs writers tend to be very smart about how such things as normal. We, as the audience, can rightfully go on about how horrible the Qun is and how horrible Tevinter slavery is...but then look at the issue of the Chantry and tranquils? And, for me, DA has not lost that edge. That ability to discuss these things. It can be one quest, it can be ten, the quantity never matters, but the quality does. I am going to use Elven destitution and Slavery because both are intertwined to explain what sufficient and what isn't in comparing Veilguard and previous installments: Nobody protest about Elf being oppressed in Origins, surely I shouldn't have to explain to you why that is the case yes? Nobody protest about Elf being oppressed in DA2, because there are sufficient VISUAL explanation why Kirkwall is shitty place for an elf. And on top of that one questline, that specifically and sufficiently explained to you the places of Elf in Kirkwall hierarchy. The wife being ignored and the son losing it's identity, not only they explained how shitty it is being an Alienage Elf, they explained to you how shitty it is being an Elf in general that have an offspring with Human, and on top of that DA2 masterfully tied that up with Mage or Mage'nt dilemma in Kirkwall. How dragon age 2 presented the uneasy relations between Dalish Elf and City Elf, while also telling a story about power balance between Elf and Human union, while also telling a story about struggle being a mage: Does Veilguard even have a quest that remotely similar to that? Nope! Clean thy Slave tunnel, please. Also, I cannot believe I have to defend Inquisition, because I repeatedly said this to people: Inquisition is bad precedent, until my mouth (fingers) practically foaming lol - Inquisition does a barely sufficient job to explained how Slave and Elf (the most enslaved, oppressed race) why they're on the lower caste of civilization. Exhibit A: Anything from Veilguard dialogue tree that remotely comparable to this? Exhibit B: Exhibit C: And not to mention, the entire sufficient explanation as to why Brialla's struggle is more believable: Now this is nonsense. The game goes very far to show how bad and dangerous Dock Town is and Tevinter society is for everyone, not just Elves, and its hardly a tourist trap. We see the Venatori using mental manipulation on people to get there way, repeatedly, and we see the average Tevinter citizen be worried about gang warfare between the Venatori and Shadow Dragons. Also we see members of the Shadow Dragons who exist as ex-slaves who also happen to be Elves (the same Elves that Loghain sold into slavery in the first place). And its just like... again one of DAs strengths is its always punted these social issues down the road. How much reform did we actually see in the Orlesian Empire in Inquisition? Or the Circle System? The game always gives us the ability to make grandiose philosophical choices in theory but we rarely see them in practice because the games plots are always centered around dealing with whatever crisis/ big bad has risen up. The epilogue slides in each game usually makes some vague and flowery promise about what might happen, but we also know that they have retconned such things before because it didn't work long term. Now this is bad writing of course but it also speaks to something realistic since reform often does not stick. Same thing in Veilguard. We see people fighting in the revolution, we see us participate in it, especially as an SD Rook with Neve, but what kind of long term change will result from our actions is something that may, or may not, be touched on in the next game. Hearing about "gang war" or "The thread is thugs" is what we call in the business " Telling not showing".
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Post by VARMAELEN on Dec 11, 2024 12:04:19 GMT
Also I don't need to say this but::
Previous games doesn't feature Minrathous.
This one is.
Slavery supposed to be "Normal".
Show us.
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Post by mrobnoxiousuk on Dec 11, 2024 12:33:04 GMT
While slavery is a repugnant thing and should never be tolerated as it violates dignity and right to life and liberty, I can guarantee you that if most of you were born in the past when it was prevalent you would grow up with a different view on it, than what your modern sensibilities and insight gives you. We are products of the times we are born into and we reflect those periods, who knows what people in the next 100 years will view us as, probably unenlightened cavemen. However i like to see accurate depictions of said things in games as it adds to the immersion, it doesn't mean i have a swastika tattoo on each arse cheek.
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Post by shagohad on Dec 11, 2024 15:26:14 GMT
I'm gonna say what I said about Bioshock Infinite back in the day: If you put controversial, uncomfortable topics in your games and don't have the balls to commit, don't put them in. The fact that the medium of gaming is this old but we can't have the gaming equivalent of Django or Roots or any other hard hitting, heavy topic movie is ridiculous.
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Post by wickedcool on Dec 11, 2024 16:27:09 GMT
Not only do we barely see it we don’t get 1960’s southern United States! We don’t get Skyrim!!! Racism. Skyrim has more racism etc than a city that all the way through tevinter nights we see and hear about. Basically we have we hear the khajiit aren’t allowed in cities and how much dialogue is given for elves etc. We don’t even get something like doby (a servant)from Harry Potter . This was more common in inquisition so what happened!
If your a complete noob to dragon age how much is it even mentioned? Ask your friends you introduced how much they figured out
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Post by colfoley on Dec 11, 2024 19:02:27 GMT
Ignoring that you replied to this post first, not the one where I debunked what seemingly your sub-optimal interpretation of the storytelling in my first post replying to you (You should reply to that one, too tbh). So here's the thing because there can be some vagueness on this general topic I suppose and it depends on how far one wants to go down the slavery rabbit hole and whether or not we want to include things like just straight up normal tyranny. Like intellectually I know that slavery, specifically, is not that big of a focus in Veilguard or Veilguard's plot so I can never logically make the claim that it is. However, if we are to only include slavery specifically for Veilguard then what about the rest of Dragon Age? A single conversation in Inquisition, a single quest chain in 2, and a single quest in Origins. Again as I have mentioned we can talk about matters of degree till we are blue in the face but the bottom line is that Veilguard talks about slavery about as much as the previous DA games. But then what DA has always done has been to deal with more generalized and subtle forms of tyranny and to always have conversations about them. DAs writers tend to be very smart about how such things as normal. We, as the audience, can rightfully go on about how horrible the Qun is and how horrible Tevinter slavery is...but then look at the issue of the Chantry and tranquils? And, for me, DA has not lost that edge. That ability to discuss these things. It can be one quest, it can be ten, the quantity never matters, but the quality does. I am going to use Elven destitution and Slavery because both are intertwined to explain what sufficient and what isn't in comparing Veilguard and previous installments: Nobody protest about Elf being oppressed in Origins, surely I shouldn't have to explain to you why that is the case yes? Nobody protest about Elf being oppressed in DA2, because there are sufficient VISUAL explanation why Kirkwall is shitty place for an elf. And on top of that one questline, that specifically and sufficiently explained to you the places of Elf in Kirkwall hierarchy. The wife being ignored and the son losing it's identity, not only they explained how shitty it is being an Alienage Elf, they explained to you how shitty it is being an Elf in general that have an offspring with Human, and on top of that DA2 masterfully tied that up with Mage or Mage'nt dilemma in Kirkwall. How dragon age 2 presented the uneasy relations between Dalish Elf and City Elf, while also telling a story about power balance between Elf and Human union, while also telling a story about struggle being a mage: Does Veilguard even have a quest that remotely similar to that? Nope! Clean thy Slave tunnel, please. Also, I cannot believe I have to defend Inquisition, because I repeatedly said this to people: Inquisition is bad precedent, until my mouth (fingers) practically foaming lol - Inquisition does a barely sufficient job to explained how Slave and Elf (the most enslaved, oppressed race) why they're on the lower caste of civilization. Exhibit A: Anything from Veilguard dialogue tree that remotely comparable to this? Exhibit B: Exhibit C: And not to mention, the entire sufficient explanation as to why Brialla's struggle is more believable: Now this is nonsense. The game goes very far to show how bad and dangerous Dock Town is and Tevinter society is for everyone, not just Elves, and its hardly a tourist trap. We see the Venatori using mental manipulation on people to get there way, repeatedly, and we see the average Tevinter citizen be worried about gang warfare between the Venatori and Shadow Dragons. Also we see members of the Shadow Dragons who exist as ex-slaves who also happen to be Elves (the same Elves that Loghain sold into slavery in the first place). And its just like... again one of DAs strengths is its always punted these social issues down the road. How much reform did we actually see in the Orlesian Empire in Inquisition? Or the Circle System? The game always gives us the ability to make grandiose philosophical choices in theory but we rarely see them in practice because the games plots are always centered around dealing with whatever crisis/ big bad has risen up. The epilogue slides in each game usually makes some vague and flowery promise about what might happen, but we also know that they have retconned such things before because it didn't work long term. Now this is bad writing of course but it also speaks to something realistic since reform often does not stick. Same thing in Veilguard. We see people fighting in the revolution, we see us participate in it, especially as an SD Rook with Neve, but what kind of long term change will result from our actions is something that may, or may not, be touched on in the next game. Hearing about "gang war" or "The thread is thugs" is what we call in the business " Telling not showing". we partipate directly in that gang war. Telling and showing like all good writing.
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Post by VARMAELEN on Dec 12, 2024 3:05:51 GMT
we partipate directly in that gang war. Telling and showing like all good writing. There is no gang war. We arrived at the end of an accident (we don't see the accident happening) in which we find a gang boss getting possessed (you'd think this as parallel of slavery somehow), and later the same gang boss being killed off-screen (not showing). There are plenty of things we hear, but not shown: - "Dock Town is Dangerous Tonight, the Demon may come out" - Neve, paraphrasing ---- No night/day cycle, no demon in the street, in fact it's laughable amount of Demon that the magister's son attempted to released to the wild - which 3-4 people squashed in almost an instant. - Hearing threads extortion racket. But seeing no said racket being conducted (compared that to Carta's racket in Orzammar) - Hearing "better threads than Venatori", but not seeing how Threads is better than venatori (on top of "smaller" issue that threads people barely exists) - hearing the threads protects people even though they extort people, but we see no protection and no extortion. Notice I list the thing I hear/saw, instead of using abstracts sentences.
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