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Post by Iakus on Aug 24, 2017 17:25:06 GMT
Chris Avellone on companion math: Dear Pathfinders,
Companions are the meat and potatoes of every good party-based RPG. Today's update is the start of a small series of articles about our approach to writing and developing the adventurers, who will accompany you on your journey across the Stolen Lands. These updates are brought to you by Narrative Designer Chris Avellone. Enjoy!
Companions are a complicated bunch.
They can run the range: Your buddy. Your crush. Your source of exasperation. Your sibling you always wished you had. Your dependent. Your source of unease. Your pal. Your one true love. Your sibling you wished you could throttle. Your (budding) arch-enemy. Your rival. Your dark mirror. Your better you. Your mentor. Your conscience. And sometimes, yes, your annoying fire support who you don’t give a submachinegun to because he unleashes burst mode on everyone – often spraying bullets on you and your own allies at the same time (Fallout 1 true story with the companion “Ian” – although it’s worth noting that this arguably unfavorable tactic gave ol’ Ian more personality than anything else – it became his signature move).
I’ve written several companions over the years, and one key aspect to their creation I don’t often discuss is math.
Yes, math.
COMPANION ARITHMETIC
I understand math is the worst subject for any ex-English Major to discuss with any authority, I know, but “the maths” have so much to do with companion design and companion arcs that it deserves some explanation. Or, in this case, a lot of explanation. Because you know us writers, we love them words.
That said, here’s a list of system questions we ask about each companion for the sake of math – and why it’s important for narrative to take these mathematics into account when constructing a companion.
- Every piece of data on a companion is important. By this, I mean all facets of data that define a character – including alignment. Factoring in alignment may seem strange to some, but when you have a game where the companions do pay attention to your actions, you’re allowed to play the game however you wish (good, evil, neutral, lawful, chaotic), and you can build a party, then you have to make sure you have a balance of companions that are suited to each character archetype. An evil player should have the chance to build a party of evil (or evil-tolerant) companions as much as a good character can do the same with a party of good (or good-tolerant) companions.
- If you don’t have a lot of companions for the game (not a problem in Kingmaker), then it’s important you make certain choices in companion personalities or quest lines that would explain why differing alignments would work together (and they can, which can create interesting quests and moments if staged correctly). These “will work with anyone” can also be done psychology-wise and setting-wise as well – and I’ll use Firefly as an example. So every member of the crew on the ship Serenity arguably has a markedly different alignment, but they also have a dependency or psychological flaw – ex: Jayne’s not too bright, Simon has a dependent, Zoey follows orders, Wash is tied to Zoey, etc. – all of these psychological bricks are mortared together and it keeps them on board and working together. In Planescape: Torment, even though you could sacrifice and force people to leave, there was a reason your party of differing alignments were drawn to you – and they definitely still fought with each other.
- Next question – if you do have a party limited by good and evil, are the companions that split along good and evil party lines balanced? (Ex: If all the Fighters in the companion list are Lawful Good, that’s an imbalance.)
- How does the character systematically fit into this party – does the companion showcase one of the range of races the game offers, especially ones unique to the game and franchise? (Goblins in Pathfinder, for example, exemplified by the companion Nok-Nok in Kingmaker.)
- Class is important narratively as well – not only for franchise-specific classes (hey, here’s a sample of one of the unique professions in the world), but also because you can’t divorce character class from a character’s backstory or their personality – a druid is likely to have a much different upbringing outlook on the world than a rogue, for example, and you need to know what “career” the companion fell into/choose in order to backtrack through their life to build the reasons they chose it – or why the class chose them.
- Is the companion progression done in such a way where the introduction makes sense (ex: you don’t want 2 fighter companions at the outset of the game, but you might want 1, and perhaps also a cleric for healing because giving the player a tank or healer early on as a companion is a great idea – even if the player is a member of both classes). In Planescape: Torment, we introduced Morte first, not just for narrative reasons, but because he is a floating shield that can take a lot of damage, can intercept enemies for you (or lure them to you), carry your stuff (he’s a floating backpack), and inform you about the world.
- Be careful on how you build the companion’s attributes and skill set – they need to follow the exact same rules as the player, and you want to build them in such a way that you don’t make them so specific they can’t make use of certain items in the game (extreme example – but if the paladin companion isn’t built in such a way that she can make use of the best paladin sword in the game, then you’re going to have some angry players – also, it goes without saying, that if the PC is a paladin, the PC gets the best paladin sword).
- It’s an excellent idea to give companions unique traits, unique inventory items, but take care that the companion is not “built” incorrectly (ex: he has higher attributes than the player would be allowed to have) – it’s irritating for a PC to traverse a game with a companion who has the same class as they do but they happen to have an unfair rack of stats, which means the player ends up being second fiddle, math-wise. And players will calculate each point and do comparisons, it’s a given. So mind the rules, even if you’d like to move points around.
- A dash of systemic spice is always welcome. What I mean by this is that the companion may have some item, trait, ability, or twist on their skills that complement their personality. It can be a diary or a space hamster. It can be a unique weapon only they can use (just don’t make it better than any other weapon a player can get, and try to give it room to grow).
- Be careful in assigning skills and attribute points to companions so that you’re not dumping points in skills and attributes they can’t even use. Example: Some games don’t allow companions to “speak,” which often means that giving them Charisma bonuses or adding to their Charisma is useless because it doesn’t do anything – if that’s the case, you might want to expand any attribute or ability that only the player can use but the attribute is shared by both the player and companion (this can be solved in other ways depending on the game design – either never allowing Charisma to be added to, or re-designing the dialogue interface – what I call “Tony Evans style” – so everyone can participate in a conversation and each one can use their stats).
- Balance the placement of the companion so that they are introduced in an area where they systemically shine (not just narratively, but combat, exploration, and tools-wise). Make sure that when the companion is gained, he’s useful immediately and if possible, he’s awesome in the immediate environment. Example – during your adventure, you might be trapped in a field of explosive spells and deadly traps, and Nok-Nok suddenly walks up (perhaps walking across the mine field in his own special trap-detecting way). Perfect. You have your own goblin mine-detector (one way or the other).
- But don’t solely have the placement be something that is a challenge or obstacle, introduce reward with it that the companion can help you reach (you may have encountered a locked chest you couldn’t open earlier in the map, or have a chance to unlock doors and cages in a mage’s storeroom). Maybe you’re a fighter who just found a wicked dagger called The Onyx Vertebrae which happens to be a dagger +2, +4 with Backstab – it’s a good weapon, but you already have a better sword. Still, when Nok-Nok appears, you know exactly who to give it to. After you teach him not to hold it by the blade.
- It’s to your benefit not to let the player get too comfortable with their roster if you’re introducing a lot of companions or introducing companions late in the game. Some players “lock-in” their party and are resistant to change depending on when you introduce a companion (this is why Final Fantasy games often have specific intros for each companion where you are forced to journey with them long enough to get used to them, then they’d be free to be removed from your party – it’s more like forced exposure, but it’s done with the purpose of showcasing that companion).
- Even death involves math – an extreme example, but the tragedy of having decide to save one of two companions is made cheaper when one has a skill set that nobody else. And it’s worse if that same skill grants the player the ability to gain special items, access to more chests, or access to secrets and bonus areas vs. the generic “fighter”. The choice then becomes less a role-playing a choice vs. “well, if I lose him, I’d lose my ability to pick locks anywhere in the world.”
- Lastly, the companions should reinforce or interact with the key systems in the game as well – for example, the player’s Kingdom. Having companions or not having certain companions should cause (and does cause) changes in one’s kingdom in Kingmaker, sometimes for the best, sometimes for the worst – each companion needs to have that “system kingdom arc” spelled out, as when writing them, you’d need to foreshadow and explain personality-wise and dialogue-wise why certain events may occur.
So let’s take our squat little maniac goblin Nok-Nok as an example and examine his schematics. He’s franchise-specific (goblin), he fulfills a role rarely held by other party members (rogue – a class that I find not many people I know seem to take as their primary character, but every seasoned RPG’er knows they always want a rogue in the party to open stubborn locks and get to places only thieves can go as long as it’s not the player that has to waste the skill points). Furthermore, he’s evil-alignment-friendly and can round out a part of evil characters although arguably his trait of being doggedly loyal means he can bond with other alignments (though they may not appreciate this), and he has a few goblin and personality-specific skills that Owlcat and I have kicked around for him being a goblin – some examples (not set in stone) – he may have the ability to gain ugly pets (goblins have the worst “pets,” but Nok-Nok can help you gain them), or he may gain unusual “trophies” (junk) that bolster his confidence as he regards them as relics, and if possible, he may even have the ability to have a unique trap disarm that uses his body as a shield for the damage – and trap damage resistance as a result of being the victim of this ability once too often.
Furthermore, his motivations are very much intertwined with the religion of the world and the religion of the goblins – and then takes it a step farther by wanting to be part of the goblin pantheon as their fifth god. He has impacts on your Kingdom (and on this, I can’t give spoilers). So there you go!
Last word on companion math – I know maths are the unsexy stuff. Necessary, but unsexy. I say necessary because if you avoid the steps above, people are less likely to want the companion at all no matter how well you’ve written them and carefully crafted their backstory (and I didn’t say “don’t want,” I said, “less likely” – there’s certainly exceptions to the rules above).
For Kingmaker, we strive to intertwine both the mathematical and narrative aspects to create a helpful ally as well as one with a deep backstory and an agenda of their own.
Chris Avellone
Narrative Designer, Pathfinder: Kingmaker
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Post by Iakus on Sept 6, 2017 17:12:16 GMT
More from Avellone on companions: COMPANION TRAJECTORY: OUTLINES AND CHARACTER ARCS
First off, if you play rogues and were taken aback at my blatant discrimination of the thief class in Part 1 – I deserve it. I even have an apology written and ready to go, but your rogue will have to find a way to steal it from my dungeon of deathtraps, since I never give away an apology easily especially to some filthy rogue. (Although at some point, I should do a blog about rogues, I have a lot of pent-up frustration there.) And by the way, while I’m at it (referencing Part 1 of this companion update), players choosing rogues and mages is one of the reasons for providing tanks and healers early as companions to act as walls/distractions for your enemies – the tanks absorb the damage and draw fire while you get schwifty with the backstab and of course, the healers are there to mop up all the blood that usually results.
Anyway, enough about that – today, let’s discuss change. And companions. Companion change. Should they?
So companions don’t have to change. They can be mysteries you unlock (or mysteries you can’t). They can advance the plot in ways when other NPCs in the world simply won’t do. They may be an emotional rock you can always rely on to act a specific way in specific situations. They can be golems, robots, undead, dogs, or dire wolves (although even dire wolves can change, as proved in a certain popular TV series about thrones and gaming).
However, it’s often better if companions evolve or change in some way – even for the worse – based on your (the player) actions. Maybe you, through example or action, made their lives better. Maybe you left them in a grave – and then resurrected them as an undead. Maybe you taught them to break through some mental block, doubt, or unhealthy obsession. Maybe you caused them to doubt or develop unhealthy obsessions, but you’re both fine with that because now you have a dependent addict as a sycophant that you can count on for emotional support on rainy days. Maybe you had to sacrifice them for the greater good. Whatever the change is, it heightens the role-playing experience. And it may be telling about what kind of person you and your player character are by the companion choices you make.
So what’s the process? Well, we start with the system bits, as described in Part 1. Class, race, rough stats (and also where the companion is found and if their joining the party is optional), alignment, and often the deity the character worships in Pathfinder – essentially, the basics.
From the basics, a paragraph summary is drafted that gives the high-level pitch for the character – the character’s background in broad strokes: what drives them, how they interact with other characters, what will players enjoy about this companion, what will they remember, and what are the big end states for the character – and yes, believe it or not, this is a lot, but we try to keep this short and to the point. The reason is because an excess of detail at this stage can waste time and potentially cause too much attachment to the details as well on all sides – either positive or negative. As a result, the first step is to paint the overall picture, see if it strikes a chord with the team and the Backers, and then move on to increasing stages of detail with the companion. It’s a lot like making a narrative sculpture – chiseling away at the block bit by bit.
Next comes establishing the details of the companion’s development arc. When doing a companion arc, we do it within the framework of an outline that mirrors the chapters of the game. This includes details on what do we want the player to feel toward the companion at each stage, what does the companion feel or emote at each stage (both internal and external), what significant change or evolution occurs in a chapter (if any – sometimes it’s escalation of a character’s trait in either a bad or good way), and what do we see the character’s branching paths being – even if they leave the party, we want the player to understand why the companion left and attach significance to that event. This outline also includes what role the player assumes or can assume in each of these events – are you helpful, apologetic, sacrificial, pragmatic, or uncaring? As the descriptors indicate, this isn’t always a binary choice, and it’s often affected by things you’ve done previously with the companion in earlier chapters – or haven’t done.
We coordinate with audio and the voice casting department during this stage as well – and the concept artists. We establish the adjectives of the character, provide a range of sample lines, and then do auditions to see who hits the right tone for the character (note that sometimes an actor’s delivery can be so unexpected, it’s possible that a voice actor can change a character’s personality, and we’ll write the character with the actor’s voice and personality in mind – this occurred when working with James Urbaniak in Fallout: New Vegas: Old World Blues, for example).
After we establish this arc, tone, and run some auditions, we run internal critiques, kick a few iterations around until we think it’s ready to be shown to Paizo and see what they think. Paizo is easy to work with, so this usually isn’t a huge discussion. No chairs are thrown. (Unless we think throwing chairs would be fun to do, then all bets are off.)
After the approval stage – we take that outline “skeleton” (if you will), then add the organs to it, taking this skeleton of stats and high-level progression and breathing the personality into it. Sometimes people are surprised a designer waits until this stage to really start writing, but I believe it is the best time to find the soul of a character – after you’ve established the systemic foundation and have an idea of where the companion starts and ends – it informs everything about your word choice, tone, and more concerning the character.
And that’s a slice of the companion design process – hope you found this interesting. On my end, I keep forgetting how much pre-production work is involved before you really start writing, so detailing it all out is a good exercise to understand just how crazy narrative designers can be. But we do our best to make great companions that you’ll love and remember – or despise, for all the right reasons.
Chris Avellone
Narrative Designer, Pathfinder: Kingmaker
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Post by linksocarina on Sept 10, 2017 20:32:06 GMT
That is a lot of stuff on companions...
Kingmaker looks pretty good, will be nice for a chance to play a game of Pathfinder with some direction into it for once. My own tabletop experiences with the system were fairly hit and miss in being consistency.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 13, 2017 15:04:57 GMT
Heh, interesting read, but I find it almost comic that they still hold their nose in regards to romances and step so gingerly around it. "Oh, some of our players do not like it" "oh, we prefer to develop a character and then see if it's appropriate..." just do it, damn it. It's not going turn you into a dirty, dirty sell out and not a true role player, har-har-har! They''d been like that about every game they done. Well, I have not seen Protocol and Vegas, but the other ones... it ends up with them inventing all sorts of "but that's why it's not going to happen" so irritating.
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Post by linksocarina on Sept 13, 2017 21:01:46 GMT
Heh, interesting read, but I find it almost comic that they still hold their nose in regards to romances and step so gingerly around it. "Oh, some of our players do not like it" "oh, we prefer to develop a character and then see if it's appropriate..." just do it, damn it. It's not going turn you into a dirty, dirty sell out and not a true role player, har-har-har! They''d been like that about every game they done. Well, I have not seen Protocol and Vegas, but the other ones... it ends up with them inventing all sorts of "but that's why it's not going to happen" so irritating. Don't you know how it works though, they won't let them become bioware now .
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Post by Iakus on Oct 20, 2017 19:05:44 GMT
Update: Resting: /posts/2014102In addition, it looks like preorders are still counting towards stretch goals.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 20, 2017 19:25:15 GMT
ye gods, way to waste resources on adding a gigantic irritant. Better have diverted them towards the banter, at rest or not. I am perfectly fine with hitting the button and seeing the campfire screenshot pop up. I'd rather hear a banter than dry out blankets and gather larch branches to sleep on EVERY. FRIGGING. TIME.
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Post by Iakus on Oct 20, 2017 19:38:04 GMT
ye gods, way to waste resources on adding a gigantic irritant. Better have diverted them towards the banter, at rest or not. I am perfectly fine with hitting the button and seeing the campfire screenshot pop up. I'd rather hear a banter than dry out blankets and gather larch branches to sleep on EVERY. FRIGGING. TIME. Well, justging by the video, we will in fact get banter. As well as a chance at random encounters. Also: Initially we intended to make this stage unskippable, but many of our alpha testers told us they’d like to make the resting process a bit shorter. So, for those among you, who are not interested in camp conversations, we give the possibility to skip this part and instantly turn to further adventure-seeking instead.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 20, 2017 20:26:55 GMT
I want banter, but I do not want the tedium.
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Post by Gandalf the Fabulous on Oct 20, 2017 22:23:34 GMT
Looks interesting, always happy to see more western CRPGs based around P&P settings and mechanics, hopefully it does not turn out to be shit. Anyone know what playable races they have planned for the game? Heh, interesting read, but I find it almost comic that they still hold their nose in regards to romances and step so gingerly around it. "Oh, some of our players do not like it" "oh, we prefer to develop a character and then see if it's appropriate..." just do it, damn it. It's not going turn you into a dirty, dirty sell out and not a true role player, har-har-har! They''d been like that about every game they done. Well, I have not seen Protocol and Vegas, but the other ones... it ends up with them inventing all sorts of "but that's why it's not going to happen" so irritating. I find it comical that people are so obsessed with romances in games, I don't object to romances being added in games but I don't think they should go out of their way and force romances where they don't fit, personally I feel the style of romance popularized in video games generally feels out of place, usually it is an awkward side story that feels kind of forced and does not really gel with the main story. If you are going to have a romance then it really should feel like a natural progression of the story based on your choices, not a line up at the brothel where you go back to camp and select which companion you want to romance and select the heart icon to initiate romance side plot.
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Post by Iakus on Oct 20, 2017 22:53:29 GMT
Looks interesting, always happy to see more western CRPGs based around P&P settings and mechanics, hopefully it does not turn out to be shit. Anyone know what playable races they have planned for the game? The seven core races for Pathfinder: human, elf, dwarf, half-elf, halfling, half-orc, and gnome. They may add another if they hit a stretch goal.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 20, 2017 23:02:17 GMT
Looks interesting, always happy to see more western CRPGs based around P&P settings and mechanics, hopefully it does not turn out to be shit. Anyone know what playable races they have planned for the game? Heh, interesting read, but I find it almost comic that they still hold their nose in regards to romances and step so gingerly around it. "Oh, some of our players do not like it" "oh, we prefer to develop a character and then see if it's appropriate..." just do it, damn it. It's not going turn you into a dirty, dirty sell out and not a true role player, har-har-har! They''d been like that about every game they done. Well, I have not seen Protocol and Vegas, but the other ones... it ends up with them inventing all sorts of "but that's why it's not going to happen" so irritating. I find it comical that people are so obsessed with romances in games, I don't object to romances being added in games but I don't think they should go out of their way and force romances where they don't fit, personally I feel the style of romance popularized in video games generally feels out of place, usually it is an awkward side story that feels kind of forced and does not really gel with the main story. If you are going to have a romance then it really should feel like a natural progression of the story based on your choices, not a line up at the brothel where you go back to camp and select which companion you want to romance and select the heart icon to initiate romance side plot. I don't mind them not including it, but their attitude is tiring as heck. And when they do it, it's anything but natural. It's like hidden away and locked behind some crazy set of conditions, and barely hinted at... But I meant Obsidian, this is not Obsidian, so whatever. Barking at the wrong tree.
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Post by close2myheart on Oct 21, 2017 9:06:53 GMT
Half Elves!!! Omg, half elves! How I miss you dearly XD Nice to know there will be other rpgs out there to wait upon aside from DA:whateveritsgonnagetcalled. Have no problem with graphics, so long as the story is good. As to romance, not gonna lie, I like them being an addition to the game [that being said, I hate games based SOLELY on romance. Forced my self to finish ONE eFFing game and still can't get to chapter 3]. And also count in the Bro-mance factor too (I love that awsome friendship path between my FemShep and Miranda and my Lavellan with Cassandra) After all, what is a journey without your pixel bffs, adoptive family and love of your life at least for me, tho.. Thanks for sharing the info, OP.
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Post by linksocarina on Oct 25, 2017 3:39:01 GMT
Looks interesting, always happy to see more western CRPGs based around P&P settings and mechanics, hopefully it does not turn out to be shit. Anyone know what playable races they have planned for the game? The seven core races for Pathfinder: human, elf, dwarf, half-elf, halfling, half-orc, and gnome. They may add another if they hit a stretch goal. I shudder at that. It will be teifling or asemir. I just know it. And I hate all of those "divine" races. Then again I'm weird, I need my world of make believe to make logical sense.
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Post by Gandalf the Fabulous on Oct 25, 2017 3:45:29 GMT
The seven core races for Pathfinder: human, elf, dwarf, half-elf, halfling, half-orc, and gnome. They may add another if they hit a stretch goal. I shudder at that. It will be teifling or asemir. I just know it. And I hate all of those "divine" races. Then again I'm weird, I need my world of make believe to make logical sense. Why does Teifling as a playable race make less logical sense than anything else in the world?
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linksocarina
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Post by linksocarina on Oct 25, 2017 3:54:54 GMT
I shudder at that. It will be teifling or asemir. I just know it. And I hate all of those "divine" races. Then again I'm weird, I need my world of make believe to make logical sense. Why does Teifling as a playable race make less logical sense than anything else in the world? I always hated the active participation of God's and deities in fantasy settings. It's thematically cool but it's very over played and frankly removes a lot of narrative tension ib my view because it has to rely on hubris and plot contrivance to work in the grand scheme of things. I always liked the idea of it being closer to the original ideas of the Chantry in Dragon Age; a faith and organized religion that psychological instead of a greek-esque pantheon where the gods are actively fucking with people because of their own cosmic chess games. In my own pathfinder games, I actually do away with that; I turn the deities into Roman-esque religious cults, where the rituals and veneration is all psychological and no celestrial beings exist. Clerics for example get their power from their faith in their convictions, instead of directly from their gods. So if they deviate from alignment it's when I tap into the same sort of mechanical leashes you'd expect from a game master, only at a different angle. As such, angels, devils and demons and likewise tieflings and aesemirs are low on my wanted feature list. I know they will be there because it's based on the generic pathfinder world, but I'd rather they go for something a bit off beat, like hobgoblins or tengu.
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Post by Iakus on Oct 25, 2017 4:07:49 GMT
Why does Teifling as a playable race make less logical sense than anything else in the world? I always hated the active participation of God's and deities in fantasy settings. It's thematically cool but it's very over played and frankly removes a lot of narrative tension ib my view because it has to rely on hubris and plot contrivance to work in the grand scheme of things. I always liked the idea of it being closer to the original ideas of the Chantry in Dragon Age; a faith and organized religion that psychological instead of a greek-esque pantheon where the gods are actively fucking with people because of their own cosmic chess games. In my own pathfinder games, I actually do away with that; I turn the deities into Roman-esque religious cults, where the rituals and veneration is all psychological and no celestrial beings exist. Clerics for example get their power from their faith in their convictions, instead of directly from their gods. So if they deviate from alignment it's when I tap into the same sort of mechanical leashes you'd expect from a game master, only at a different angle. As such, angels, devils and demons and likewise tieflings and aesemirs are low on my wanted feature list. I know they will be there because it's based on the generic pathfinder world, but I'd rather they go for something a bit off beat, like hobgoblins or tengu. Looking at the Pathfinder SRD, it appears that tieflings and aasimar are considered "advanced" races ie more powerful than the standard ones. This suggests to me that they are actually less likely to be used. Or if they are they would be scaled back or otherwise somehow limited. Same with tengu, actually. But orcs, goblins, hobgoblins, they are all listed as "standard". Though I have no idea how they would go about choosing a race. Assuming they even bring in a new one.
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Post by linksocarina on Oct 25, 2017 4:11:24 GMT
I always hated the active participation of God's and deities in fantasy settings. It's thematically cool but it's very over played and frankly removes a lot of narrative tension ib my view because it has to rely on hubris and plot contrivance to work in the grand scheme of things. I always liked the idea of it being closer to the original ideas of the Chantry in Dragon Age; a faith and organized religion that psychological instead of a greek-esque pantheon where the gods are actively fucking with people because of their own cosmic chess games. In my own pathfinder games, I actually do away with that; I turn the deities into Roman-esque religious cults, where the rituals and veneration is all psychological and no celestrial beings exist. Clerics for example get their power from their faith in their convictions, instead of directly from their gods. So if they deviate from alignment it's when I tap into the same sort of mechanical leashes you'd expect from a game master, only at a different angle. As such, angels, devils and demons and likewise tieflings and aesemirs are low on my wanted feature list. I know they will be there because it's based on the generic pathfinder world, but I'd rather they go for something a bit off beat, like hobgoblins or tengu. Looking at the Pathfinder SRD, it appears that tieflings and aasimar are considered "advanced" races ie more powerful than the standard ones. This suggests to me that they are actually less likely to be used. Or if they are they would be scaled back or otherwise somehow limited. Same with tengu, actually. But orcs, goblins, hobgoblins, they are all listed as "standard". Though I have no idea how they would go about choosing a race. Assuming they even bring in a new one. That is mostly suggestive though via tabletop. Kind of like how drow and duregar were always better than elves and dwarves because of a ton of new traits and resistances that their counterpart races lacked. So you need a gm to make that decision. For the video game they can parse that down of course. Or just emphasize weaknesses to compensate. Advanced or no, it would be a question of popularity I think. And tieflings especially are pretty popular, and I've played a lot of games in the past where aesemirs come in and do the Mary sue thing.
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Oct 12, 2017 11:02:40 GMT
October 2017
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Post by Gandalf the Fabulous on Oct 25, 2017 4:37:02 GMT
Why does Teifling as a playable race make less logical sense than anything else in the world? I always hated the active participation of God's and deities in fantasy settings. It's thematically cool but it's very over played and frankly removes a lot of narrative tension ib my view because it has to rely on hubris and plot contrivance to work in the grand scheme of things. I always liked the idea of it being closer to the original ideas of the Chantry in Dragon Age; a faith and organized religion that psychological instead of a greek-esque pantheon where the gods are actively fucking with people because of their own cosmic chess games. In my own pathfinder games, I actually do away with that; I turn the deities into Roman-esque religious cults, where the rituals and veneration is all psychological and no celestrial beings exist. Clerics for example get their power from their faith in their convictions, instead of directly from their gods. So if they deviate from alignment it's when I tap into the same sort of mechanical leashes you'd expect from a game master, only at a different angle. As such, angels, devils and demons and likewise tieflings and aesemirs are low on my wanted feature list. I know they will be there because it's based on the generic pathfinder world, but I'd rather they go for something a bit off beat, like hobgoblins or tengu. I guess it all depends on how it is written but I guess I have no problem with powerful entities that could be perceived as gods by the people who worship them, not all powerful beings who created the universe but rather beings who exist within the universe that are beyond mortal comprehension and have somehow set themselves up as idols of worship for one reason or another. Always nice to have some force greater than the player that they need to be wary of, remind them that they are not the biggest fish in the pond, hard to build a sense of tension when the player is the toughest creature in the land.
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Post by Iakus on Oct 25, 2017 14:17:25 GMT
Looking at the Pathfinder SRD, it appears that tieflings and aasimar are considered "advanced" races ie more powerful than the standard ones. This suggests to me that they are actually less likely to be used. Or if they are they would be scaled back or otherwise somehow limited. Same with tengu, actually. But orcs, goblins, hobgoblins, they are all listed as "standard". Though I have no idea how they would go about choosing a race. Assuming they even bring in a new one. That is mostly suggestive though via tabletop. Kind of like how drow and duregar were always better than elves and dwarves because of a ton of new traits and resistances that their counterpart races lacked. So you need a gm to make that decision. For the video game they can parse that down of course. Or just emphasize weaknesses to compensate. Advanced or no, it would be a question of popularity I think. And tieflings especially are pretty popular, and I've played a lot of games in the past where aesemirs come in and do the Mary sue thing. Well, for myself, I'd prefer any extra race to be orc or goblin. Neither are considered overpowered, and since we:1) already have half-orcs and 2) have a goblin companion (Nok-Nok) they should be easy enough to implement. The only problem might be since they are both considered to be 'evil" races. And pathfinder seems to take the whole "evil" thing seriously in their descriptions. Seriously, you would NOT want to be taken alive by a Pathfinder ogre...
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Post by linksocarina on Oct 25, 2017 14:26:13 GMT
That is mostly suggestive though via tabletop. Kind of like how drow and duregar were always better than elves and dwarves because of a ton of new traits and resistances that their counterpart races lacked. So you need a gm to make that decision. For the video game they can parse that down of course. Or just emphasize weaknesses to compensate. Advanced or no, it would be a question of popularity I think. And tieflings especially are pretty popular, and I've played a lot of games in the past where aesemirs come in and do the Mary sue thing. Well, for myself, I'd prefer any extra race to be orc or goblin. Neither are considered overpowered, and since we:1) already have half-orcs and 2) have a goblin companion (Nok-Nok) they should be easy enough to implement. The only problem might be since they are both considered to be 'evil" races. And pathfinder seems to take the whole "evil" thing seriously in their descriptions. Seriously, you would NOT want to be taken alive by a Pathfinder ogre... Id go a step further...Kobolds. Weak and infirm lizards, think they are a master race because they are descendants from Dragons, kinda smart...make perfect comedic foils for the world.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 25, 2017 14:33:32 GMT
I'd actually rather have Tiefling/Aasimar and elementals than the standard set of seven races. They look less boring, and they are far enough removed from their original infusion of supernatural blood to bother me.
I dunno, I am divided as to the extent of my desire to play a D&D game again. On one hand I am drawn to it nostalgically, on another I am still feeling burned out on it with BG/IWD
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Post by Iakus on Oct 25, 2017 14:50:20 GMT
Well, for myself, I'd prefer any extra race to be orc or goblin. Neither are considered overpowered, and since we:1) already have half-orcs and 2) have a goblin companion (Nok-Nok) they should be easy enough to implement. The only problem might be since they are both considered to be 'evil" races. And pathfinder seems to take the whole "evil" thing seriously in their descriptions. Seriously, you would NOT want to be taken alive by a Pathfinder ogre... Id go a step further...Kobolds. Weak and infirm lizards, think they are a master race because they are descendants from Dragons, kinda smart...make perfect comedic foils for the world. I think an awesome final boss would be what looks like a wimpy kobold, only to discover he's like a 20th level sorcerer jade Dreamer This looks like it will be thematically different from other D&D-type games. You're not so much going off to hunt monsters and save the kingdom, as you are creating a kingdom, carving it out of the wilderness and shaping it as you see fit.
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Oct 12, 2017 11:02:40 GMT
October 2017
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Post by Gandalf the Fabulous on Oct 25, 2017 14:57:36 GMT
Well, for myself, I'd prefer any extra race to be orc or goblin. Neither are considered overpowered, and since we:1) already have half-orcs and 2) have a goblin companion (Nok-Nok) they should be easy enough to implement. The only problem might be since they are both considered to be 'evil" races. And pathfinder seems to take the whole "evil" thing seriously in their descriptions. Seriously, you would NOT want to be taken alive by a Pathfinder ogre... Id go a step further...Kobolds. Weak and infirm lizards, think they are a master race because they are descendants from Dragons, kinda smart...make perfect comedic foils for the world. I'm not that familiar with Pathfinder lore or the campaign setting but doesn't the main character need to be a race that is at least somewhat tolerated in the major cities and settlements of the campaign map? Unless of course there is some sort of masking magic that hides their true identity. Are races like Kobolds and Goblins allowed free rein within the settlements of Pathfinder or is the campaign this game is set in set outside any sort of civilized encampment?
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Post by Iakus on Oct 25, 2017 15:06:02 GMT
Id go a step further...Kobolds. Weak and infirm lizards, think they are a master race because they are descendants from Dragons, kinda smart...make perfect comedic foils for the world. I'm not that familiar with Pathfinder lore or the campaign setting but doesn't the main character need to be a race that is at least somewhat tolerated in the major cities and settlements of the campaign map? Unless of course there is some sort of masking magic that hides their true identity. Are races like Kobolds and Goblins allowed free rein within the settlements of Pathfinder or is the campaign this game is set in set outside any sort of civilized encampment? This particular storyline (called "Kingmaker") is set in a frontier land called the Stolen Lands. Kingdoms have existed here before, but have since fallen and the wilderness has taken over. You, the player, are going to tame that wilderness and establish your own kingdom there. So I guess you get to decide what (or who) is considered "civilized"
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