House of the Dragon (Game of Thrones Spin-off) Thread

I like Daemon a lot too, but do think he works much better as the ruler's ruthless right hand/husband than as the ruling monarch in his own right. Not sure I'd call Viserys too passive either, and their issues with each other were legitimate. Daemon really was out of control in those years, and Rhaenyra really did seem like the safer heir. Honestly, I think the fundamental error Viserys made was keeping her his heir after Aegon was born. She clearly hadn't risen to the responsibility he'd impressed on her by then, and returning to the "natural order" of being succeeded by his firstborn son would have satisfied most of the realm, especially Otto, and sidelined any potential conflict about the succession once he was gone. Without the impending threat of a succession crisis with their own kids and grandkids on the line I think Alicent and Otto would have been much better influences on Aegon, and there's no reason he couldn't have turned into a decent ruler.

It might have cost Viserys his relationship with his daughter, but only until she grew out of being an immature entitled brat. If he explained exactly why it had to be done there wouldn't be a whole lot she could say or do to refute him, or defend her own behavior. There's a reason all the different lords expected him to make that announcement, even if it hurt her feelings. It was the obviously safest thing to do for the country. 

As things stand, I'd personally trust Alicent and Otto with the Seven Kingdoms before Daemon and Rhaenyra just in terms of temperament, foresight and administrative ability. Aegon isn't quite Joffrey Baratheon either, he doesn't seem to have that... uh... personal initiative yet. So if they could rule effectively through him then I think that might make the most stable and prosperous regency. At the expense of a couple of violated chambermaids and an uptick in crime and corruption in King's Landing, granted. But you can't make an omelet...

...Of course, Otto would eventually pass away and leave Alicent with a likely increasingly unstable Aegon to manage. And then we have the same kind of situation as when Tywin got fed up and left the Mad King to handle his own realm after decades of perfectly micro-managed peace, and the country imploded. 

Honestly have a hard time seeing Daemon/Rhaenyra as monarchs of a very stable realm, though. They're both so impulsive and temperamental, and neither ever gave a damn about learning to understand real politics. Jace seems like he's got his head on straight, at least. If the Greens conceded and Rhaenyra abdicated her crown to him when he came of age then I think that scenario might be best for everyone. But it doesn't sound like she intends to.

I seem to remember plenty of shots of Dany either holding on to Drogon for dear life or looking anxiously around waiting to see exactly where he'd take her, but not her having to manually pull the brakes on him. Also liked the table when we first saw it in Dragonstone. when it looked like it was just the landmass of Westeros, which fit the idea of the Targaryens seeing it all as their claimed territory regardless of local fiefdoms and conventions. But ah well.

Seeing Storm's End was really awesome. I always wondered what it'd look like after hearing Stannis complain about having been forced to settle for Dragonstone. Actually, in general I'd say the locations in this show are even better and more convincing than GoT's. Hopefully it's gathered enough goodwill that the budget stays strong for the second season, assuming more varied locations, dragon CGI and battle scenes.

Thank you for the response, you make very good points.

I personally think the best way to have eased some tension would've been by Viserys himself right after the situation happened. Maybe by forcing an apology from all parties involved, ignoring the bastard rumors for the moment and then enacting some sort of punishment for Luke. Not maim him like Alicent called for but something to show that you couldn't just slash out his son's eye.

As much as I loved Viserys love for Rhaenerya and understood that she was probably the last piece which reminded him of his late wife Aemma, it really seemed as if he neglected his other children at times. There is no way that wouldn't create some years of bitterness, especially on Aemond's part. I know Viserys had it rough literally falling apart in his later years but still...

Would've been nice if Luke had also tried to ease tensions himself years later, but unfortunately he never received that guidance. The biggest failures from that night seemed to be all the adults imo and sadly their children suffer because of it.

The weird part is, for all their glacial pace setting up the story, other things felt extremely rushed- Harwin Strong, for instance. He gets introduced and eliminated in the same episode. That was extremely abrupt, even for the truncated version of Harwin Strong compared to the books.

I'm hoping/expecting season 2 will do better with the pacing problems, after having set the stage and not needing any more time jumps after season 1, and that was the main flaw/valid criticism of the show so far. So hopefully season 2 will be even better (and season 1 was already very good, even with the pacing problems) 

I don't know. The Targaryens have plenty of unacknowledged common-born bastard children on Dragonstone, too. That sort of thing only seems to be a true threat to the nation's stability when the line of succession is already in serious conflict and all the most obvious claimants have been whittled down, or the King is too stupid to live and makes really idiotic choices. Imagine Gendry or any of Robert's other bastards trying to stake a claim on the Iron Throne even during the War of Five Kings. The absolute best they could have hoped for would be to embarrass the ruling family somewhat while dying on the rack. From what I know of the Blackfyre Rebellions it'd be more accurate to say that they were caused by Aegon the Unworthy legitimizing all his bastards, rather than him having them in the first place. 

I have very strong personal feelings about men having children without intending to be a father to them but looking at it in the context of the setting that doesn't seem anywhere near as vile as what Aegon otherwise gets up to both in the show and the books. It's very hard to imagine him being king for very long without that kind of sadism and depravity leaking into his policies assuming Otto allows him much independent power at all.

Meanwhile, Rhaenyra having children with someone who looks nothing like her husband and trying to pass them off as heirs to the two most powerful seats in the Seven Kingdoms over her father's firstborn son based on her own already precarious claim is an absolute recipe for disaster, and could almost only end in war and their executions. And she was certainly old enough to know that when she did it. Her having actually brought Jace and Luke up to be good kids is nice(though I guess we'll never know how much of that was actually Harwin and Leanor), but she's still a terrible mother for having endangered them from birth for her own pleasure, ego and ambition. Even true love doesn't justify that, no matter how hunky or curly-haired or handsome in armor. She should have thought better of it from the start or abdicated the Throne in favor of Aegon as soon as she became pregnant with Harwin to keep her kids safe for me to have the slightest respect for her judgement. One or the other.

And her sudden concern for the welfare of the kingdom this episode felt more like a guilty homage to her dad's priorities than anything genuine to me, because she's never read as giving a damn before. As a teen she was entirely preoccupied with what she wanted and didn't care at all how that affected everyone else, and in four episodes I still haven't seen anything to suggest that she's matured one bit from that. When I read people talking about her having been wise beyond her years I keep remembering that scene of her mocking the suitors she's been privileged enough to choose freely between one after the other before encouraging little Robert Blackwood's rivals to mock him as well and turning her back on the resulting duel because it bored her instead of asserting her royal authority to stop it, resulting in one kid killing another. She never takes responsibility for a single thing throughout the entire show until that one moment of regurgitating her dad's values in episode 10.

By the way, how awesome is it not to have a show with enough depth and nuance to have these kinds of conversation again?

I guess it makes enough sense to me because I came at it from the angle of the Targaryen's have a culture that has grown around them - both internally and externally - of being near divine, and certainly ordained by 'on high'.  If the living nuke responds to you, and you alone, maybe you come to believe that you have total control over it.  From that perspective, it follows quite easily that Aemond believed he could scare the shit out of Luke while holding short of killing him.  He probably even believed it after Luke lost control of his own dragon (because he considers himself to be a true Targaryen and Lucerys to not be).

It's reasonable to think that Alicent also gave firm instructions to her son about violence, like Rhaenyra did.  If we believe that she truly believes Viserys changed his mind and that she was truly surprised and upset by the plot having been constructed without her knowledge then it follows she might still hold out hope that war can be averted.  So while Aemond would absolutely have loved to have harmed Luke - he may have realised that by killing him, he 'done fucked up'.  So the other interpretation of his anguished expression is "yes, I meant to do this...but now I realise that Mum is going to be super pissed and there will be serious ramifications for the realm and my House later on".

Whatever faults he may have, he is significantly better suited to rule than his older brother.  So regret from a stupid act (assuming he intended for Luke to die) is plausible, as well.

Anyway - that's my rationale - no issue if you see it differently, of course.

But don't get me wrong, I really like the show and so these are ultimately nitpicks. But they're also entirely self-inflicted errors, without which the show would have been even better, so I can't help but regret them missing that opportunity a little bit.

Mfw i just remembered my mother's birthday was yesterday and i don't know what gift to send her.

I hope she's not absolved from

it's the one thing the writers could do with her character that would really irritate me.

Nah. Remember, it's comparatively easy for a man of any serious means (and therefore resources at stake upon his death, inviting conflict) to control a medieval woman's body, which other men she's in contact with, where she goes and what she's allowed to do. A bit harder to make her promise to survive childbirth just because the stability of the realm depends on it. Point goes to the patriarchy. At least in terms of staving off war. Not so much on the individual freedom of half the population. But sometimes you just have to prioritize. 


In the context of a medieval setting, playing around with the succession inherently invites debate and conflict when the time comes to actually act it out, as we see on the show, which puts thousands of lives in jeopardy not just on this occasion but on all future occasions when someone might exploit the precedent you set to undermine a peaceful transfer of power for their own ends. So yeah. Objectively I'd call Viserys bending tradition for Rhaenyra a short-sighted decision even though she seemed like a much better heir than Daemon at the time. In that instance he really didn't have a lot of choice, given the cards he'd been dealt. But not reversing the decision when doing so would streamline the succession again and ensure peace to protect her completely unearned sense of entitlement was really dumb.

You're definitely right that a lot of people will probably see the whole issue through that projected 'eeek, sexism victim' lens though, and that that probably accounts for a lot of Rhaenyra's and Rhaenys' popularity at present.