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Post by gervaise21 on Mar 31, 2023 13:11:53 GMT
I'm curious about what makes the red lyrium idol so special. Hopefully, they will elaborate next game. Originally it did seem in DA2 as though the important part was that it was created from pure red lyrium and, of course, that once Meredith had it melted down, that was the end of the idol, although I have to admit she did look very similar to the idol when she transformed at the end of the battle. Did they always intend for the idol to return via her statue or was a later invention by the writers? Anyway, it has now acquired a significance far beyond the mere fact it was created from red lyrium. In fact, now we know that red lyrium is blighted normal lyrium, it is possible that the idol was originally made from lyrium and then infected later. Items can become tainted as evidenced by Merrill's eluvian and I suppose this is likely because lyrium was involved in its construction. When the mage used it in Tevinter Nights, it required a blood magic ritual to activate it, allowing him to withdraw a ritual blade from its base. It was at this point that Fen'Harel intervened before the mage could do any more with the blade, citing that to do so carelessly would threaten all creation. So, I imagine the chief importance of the idol now is the ability to produce that blade, whatever it is capable of doing. Whether it is the red lyrium that gives it the power or that is incidental is anyone's guess but we do know that red lyrium gave Meredith, a non-mage, the power to do things that even the majority of mages in Thedas would find impossible, so that may be relevant to what the idol/blade allows the wielder to do. Did someone in the past infect the idol to make it more powerful?
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Post by SofaJockey on Mar 31, 2023 13:19:09 GMT
I also like that this story element is rooted in DA history from the second game. Dragon Age has rich lore, I'm pleased to see the series using it.
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Post by Iddy on Mar 31, 2023 13:22:41 GMT
I also like that this story element is rooted in DA history from the second game. Dragon Age has rich lore, I'm pleased to see the series using it. If I had the opportunity to play DA2 again, the Deep Roads expedition would feel a lot more meaningful than it did then.
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Post by gervaise21 on Mar 31, 2023 13:27:02 GMT
Another side thought. It always seemed curious to me it was referred to as an idol rather than simply a statuette. Calling it an idol implies it was created for the purposes of worship. So who created it? The dwarves of that ancient thaig to honour their goddess? If so, who was she? If not, who else might have created it? How did Hawke know it was a religious object? Considering it is not just an object for veneration but has a ritual blade as part of its construction, what was the original function of that blade and who was intended to use it? Fen'Harel laid claim to it but it strikes me as a somewhat odd item for him to possess, much less have created himself. It seems far more likely that he stole it from its original creator and, if that was one of the absent Evanuris, then by reason of the fact that they cannot lay claim to it, he has asserted ownership by default. The Evanuris most known for their ability at crafting is June, so was this idol one of his works? Or, given its rather strange ability to alter in shape and reform, almost like a living creature, could it in fact be one of Ghilan'nain's experiments?
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Post by Iddy on Mar 31, 2023 13:29:45 GMT
Incidentally, it seems unclear whether June was male or female.
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Post by gervaise21 on Mar 31, 2023 13:39:54 GMT
Incidentally, it seems unclear whether June was male or female. This is true. The Dalish always have June as a him but that codex entry in the Temple of Mythal seemed to throw everything up in the air concerning what we know of the elven gods. If you think about it, the inscription about Sylaise doesn't mention whether they are male or female, nor does that other entry in Trespasser concerning making a gift to June in return for a great favour. So, once again we are relying on Dalish for the information. Those ancient mosaics depicting them aren't much help either since I don't feel the subjects even look elven. The only one that seems to have specific female associations is Mythal, the mother, with her children cradled in front of her. Still, in the absence of anything to the contrary, I shall continue to refer to him when speaking of June and her for Sylaise.
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Post by RelevantRevenant on Mar 31, 2023 13:52:00 GMT
I think the Venatori saved Varric so he and Harding can lead either the Venatori or someone posing as Venatori to Solas. Or they just really want Varric and Harding to deal with Solas.
The Venatori seems to be special in some way and I suppose we shall find out why in the last issue. Maybe this character turns out to be an ally and they will be in DA:D?
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Post by Iddy on Mar 31, 2023 16:47:38 GMT
Personally, I'm just tired of the Venatori. Inquisition didn't do a good job at making them interesting, so I'm not exactly thrilled to see them again.
Just... bunch of stereotypical and expendable goons, with their generic rituals and evil laughter. Oh, and don't even get me started with the speeches about the old Tevinter empire. As a magnificent villain once said: "The ramblings of an upjumped zealot make for tedious listening."
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Post by gervaise21 on Mar 31, 2023 18:36:05 GMT
I think the Venatori saved Varric so he and Harding can lead either the Venatori or someone posing as Venatori to Solas. Or they just really want Varric and Harding to deal with Solas. At least one poster seemed to think it was not a Venatori who saved Varric but Solas (disguised as a Venatori?). Personally, I don't understand how the Venatori survived the death of their Elder One but apparently they were around long before Cory appeared on the scene and he just found them useful tools for his own plans (or vice versa). The only Venatori I would have time for is Calpernia and that is only if she is now an ex-Venatori. They are terrible people and to my mind do not have enough power, whatever their deluded members might think, to be worth allying with even against Solas. I fully expect them to be in opposition again because of their misuse and spread of red lyrium and I would be willing to work even with agents of Fen'Harel to counter that, particularly as I think his determination to proceed with his plan may have something to do with the substance. Since Vyrantium, their apparent powerbase, is now under siege by the Antaam, if they have any credibility at all as a major player in Tevinter society, they will need to stop the advance there. Hopefully, the Antaam and the Venatori will just cancel each other out and fight themselves to oblivion. Incidentally, I have doubts they are even aware of the danger posed by Solas, apart from his agents recruiting their slaves and they will be acting under the instructions of Fen'Harel. Even the Viddasala didn't make the connection between Solas and Fen'Harel, thinking he was just an agent of the latter. Rasaan does know they are one and the same but I doubt she has been sharing information with the Venatori.
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Post by colfoley on Mar 31, 2023 18:50:46 GMT
Personally, I'm just tired of the Venatori. Inquisition didn't do a good job at making them interesting, so I'm not exactly thrilled to see them again. Just... bunch of stereotypical and expendable goons, with their generic rituals and evil laughter. Oh, and don't even get me started with the speeches about the old Tevinter empire. As a magnificent villain once said: "The ramblings of an upjumped zealot make for tedious listening." we are stuck with them in some capacity though so let's hope second times the charm. And both TVN and Absolution indicate they could move them in a very interesting direction if they pull it off. Hell the revelations from Absolution suggest they may have more depth then first believed.
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Post by dayze on Mar 31, 2023 19:18:18 GMT
Hmm... that mural is giving off some familiar vibes. Well; the mural seems to be showing someone helping another through the process of death whereas the Idol seems to be showing someone helping them through the process of going through birth. The last one may be Ghil' in their true form and not just a child of them.
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Post by gervaise21 on Apr 1, 2023 8:17:02 GMT
Hell the revelations from Absolution suggest they may have more depth then first believed Really? I thought the only time they were mentioned in Absolution was when they burnt Hira's father to a crisp. That seemed pretty much in keeping with our experience of them and how they are portrayed in Tevinter Nights. Rezaren wasn't a Venatori but had his own separate agenda and seemed very close to the Black Divine. I could be wrong about this but I always thought the Black Divine would be in opposition to the Venatori because of their support for the Elder One who was a direct threat to his power. Just because the Elder One failed, wouldn't endear them to him. I suppose he might be swayed by the offer of red lyrium (if he is a fool) but there was no mention of that in connection with Rezaren or the Imperial Templars in Absolution, all of whom were pro-Tevinter. The only appearance of red lyrium was connected with someone who wanted to destroy Tevinter.
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Post by gervaise21 on Apr 1, 2023 8:36:30 GMT
Well; the mural seems to be showing someone helping another through the process of death To be honest, I'm not sure what it is meant to be depicting. However, something else has just struck me and that is the abnormal length of the lower figure's neck. Is this just really poor illustration or deliberate? It gave me deja vu for the elves in DA2, although even they weren't as long as this one. Meanwhile, the upper figure makes me think of the elven mosaics of the Evanuris with the elongated face and odd looking nose. Obviously the ears of both are hidden by their head gear. I just find the whole image really strange and not in keeping with any of the murals we have seen before in connection with the ancient elves, particularly those painted by Solas. The headdress on the upper figure calls to mind not so much the weird creature in the concept art, or Solas' mural in the trailer, but the Archon in Magekiller if his hat lost a bit of its starch. Notice the close up shows how similar the design is around the face. There is a similarity in the big shoulder pads too. So, did Archon Radonis base his robes on earlier art they discovered in elven ruins? Or do all illustrators think alike when it comes to what they think are the robes of rulers? Incidentally, I would find the figures more impressive and convincing as Evanuris if their robes had the colour of the Archon's rather than sludge brown.
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Post by ClarkKent on Apr 1, 2023 9:06:53 GMT
Personally, I'm just tired of the Venatori. Inquisition didn't do a good job at making them interesting, so I'm not exactly thrilled to see them again. Just... bunch of stereotypical and expendable goons, with their generic rituals and evil laughter. Oh, and don't even get me started with the speeches about the old Tevinter empire. As a magnificent villain once said: "The ramblings of an upjumped zealot make for tedious listening." They're the Cerberus of Dragon Age at this point.
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Post by gervaise21 on Apr 1, 2023 10:37:22 GMT
Been doing a bit of searching the net and discovered a more complete image of the one under discussion Okay, so would someone please explain how an image of Fen'Harel, that we previously assumed showed what he planned to do in the future, is now found behind a wall in an old elven temple to an undisclosed god and alongside the image of these other two? I cannot believe this is a temple to either Andruil or Ghilan'nain because why would the Dread Wolf be there? Also, why would the patron goddess(s) be hidden behind a wall? Since the interior vault is accessed past this, at most it is like the Temple of Mythal where the other gods are honoured before getting to the inner sanctum. Clearly, though these images were originally bricked/plastered up, suggesting that may be the elves in charge of the temple in ancient times decided they were persona non gratia. That would make sense if the bricking up was done after the imprisonment of the gods and that they knew Fen'Harel was responsible. What about the other two though? Were they known to be his allies? To be honest, in addition to the elongated neck, I would say her arm is abnormally long and the fingers on the other hand look odd as well. Do suppose it illustrates her undergoing some sort of transformation, which is why the other is apparently comforting her? I am still puzzled by the image of Fen'Harel. Given it was in the 2020 trailer in what appeared to be his inner sanctum, the illustrator must have been instructed to use it. Why?
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Post by colfoley on Apr 1, 2023 11:31:35 GMT
Hell the revelations from Absolution suggest they may have more depth then first believed Really? I thought the only time they were mentioned in Absolution was when they burnt Hira's father to a crisp. That seemed pretty much in keeping with our experience of them and how they are portrayed in Tevinter Nights. Rezaren wasn't a Venatori but had his own separate agenda and seemed very close to the Black Divine. I could be wrong about this but I always thought the Black Divine would be in opposition to the Venatori because of their support for the Elder One who was a direct threat to his power. Just because the Elder One failed, wouldn't endear them to him. I suppose he might be swayed by the offer of red lyrium (if he is a fool) but there was no mention of that in connection with Rezaren or the Imperial Templars in Absolution, all of whom were pro-Tevinter. The only appearance of red lyrium was connected with someone who wanted to destroy Tevinter. Absolution by the Venatori doing what they did when they did it to Hera's father suggests they've been around for years, probably decades. And while this could've just been my assumption I did generally think the fandom supposed that they were created when Corypheus rose to power, at least more or less. But that they have had an existence before Cory makes it a little easier to stomach having an existance after and doesen't make them just a group of Corypheus related extremists but they have their own part of it. Which then follows and suggests that they might actually remain a powerful faction within Tevinter politics. Hera did suggest that they were 'everywhere.' This all makes a fair bit of sense because we already have a Tevinter reformist movement led by Maeveris and Dorian so they then become the quite logical counter point to them within the game...as well as cultists who are hunting down powerful artifacts of their own to gain power. Meanwhile the rest of Tevinter society will be caught in the cross fire of these various extremist groups, even if Dorian does have relatively benign intentions, which could serve as a juicy plot point moving forward. Personally, I'm just tired of the Venatori. Inquisition didn't do a good job at making them interesting, so I'm not exactly thrilled to see them again. Just... bunch of stereotypical and expendable goons, with their generic rituals and evil laughter. Oh, and don't even get me started with the speeches about the old Tevinter empire. As a magnificent villain once said: "The ramblings of an upjumped zealot make for tedious listening." They're the Cerberus of Dragon Age at this point. Kind of funny because I've been dancing around this very topic as well. On the one hand I do agree with the comparison and have even made it myself. A radical ultra nationalist ultra supremacist group that should be a relative minority but then seems to have a lot of troops and power at their disposal and a really big part of Tevinter society wrapped around their fingers. But on the other hand its not that apt, or at least it makes a little more sense on why they have the power they do given that, as I mentioned above, they have been around for awhile and indications now point to them having a lot more power over that time. Been doing a bit of searching the net and discovered a more complete image of the one under discussion Okay, so would someone please explain how an image of Fen'Harel, that we previously assumed showed what he planned to do in the future, is now found behind a wall in an old elven temple to an undisclosed god and alongside the image of these other two? I cannot believe this is a temple to either Andruil or Ghilan'nain because why would the Dread Wolf be there? Also, why would the patron goddess(s) be hidden behind a wall? Since the interior vault is accessed past this, at most it is like the Temple of Mythal where the other gods are honoured before getting to the inner sanctum. Clearly, though these images were originally bricked/plastered up, suggesting that may be the elves in charge of the temple in ancient times decided they were persona non gratia. That would make sense if the bricking up was done after the imprisonment of the gods and that they knew Fen'Harel was responsible. What about the other two though? Were they known to be his allies? To be honest, in addition to the elongated neck, I would say her arm is abnormally long and the fingers on the other hand look odd as well. Do suppose it illustrates her undergoing some sort of transformation, which is why the other is apparently comforting her? I am still puzzled by the image of Fen'Harel. Given it was in the 2020 trailer in what appeared to be his inner sanctum, the illustrator must have been instructed to use it. Why? While it may not come up that often there is a definite element of prophecy within Thedas that the writers have put in. Both the Canticle of...Drakon...I think is its actual name...and Sandl's prophecy do come instantly to mind there.
And if Hrungr is right about the mural being related to the idol, which some has also speculated as being prophetic, then that just feeds into that supposition.
From there boarding it up presents a couple of different options either A. like you said because it does depict Fen'Harel doing something and he would eventuaollly become anathema. Or B. people decided that it could risk revealing too much about ancient or future knowledge and wanted to keep it away from prying eyes.
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Post by cuthbertbeckett on Apr 1, 2023 12:12:54 GMT
Personally, I'm just tired of the Venatori. Inquisition didn't do a good job at making them interesting, so I'm not exactly thrilled to see them again. Just... bunch of stereotypical and expendable goons, with their generic rituals and evil laughter. Oh, and don't even get me started with the speeches about the old Tevinter empire. As a magnificent villain once said: "The ramblings of an upjumped zealot make for tedious listening." I agree on the Venatori as a faction but Calpernia! and Alexius are interessing characters. Calpernia for her anti slave views and Alexius well he want to save his son. (But saying this i don´t like the time travel nonsense)
And Erimond? Well i like the tranquility judgment scene.
The Venatori like the Red Templars are only existing because they needed a faction the player can fight regardless of their choices. They are the evil mages faction. So yeah they are like Cerberus in ME 3. Also with the Venatori they want to make the other Non Venatori in Tevinter to look good. I mean it does seem unlikey that we fight the Archon and his forces.
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Post by gervaise21 on Apr 1, 2023 13:06:46 GMT
Absolution by the Venatori doing what they did when they did it to Hera's father suggests they've been around for years, probably decades. It has been said that there are Old God Cultists who have been part of Altus society ever since Hessarian drove them underground. We also had hints that something nefarious was going on behind closed doors in Fenris' account of Danarius and his cronies and, of course, they have now made a direct link between him and the Venatori. Plus, as far back as Magekiller we knew their influence among the upper elite of Tevinter society made it difficult for the Archon to act against them directly without exposing himself to assassination, so he had to use clandestine means. For them to be embedded that much did seem to suggest they may have been around before their Elder One. I've also question whether the Resolutionists in DA2, that Fenris claimed were backed by Tevinter, were actually sponsored by the Venatori. Plus, in the epilogue to Trespasser if Dorian and Bull are together has them directly attacking Dorian on his way to see his lover on the border and having to be rescued. It was also clear from Tevinter Nights that they were still active, with continuing support from Altus families. However, all these things were known to us prior to Absolution, which is why I questioned how that specifically had made them more significant. They killed Hira's father when she was a child but, not knowing her precise age, this could still have been post Corypheus' release from his prison, since you can play Legacy any time during Acts 1,2 or 3 of DA2, so he could have been active as far back as 9:31 (according to the timeline in WoT1). Since she met Miri when they were both teenagers (as Rezaren was likely a teenager when he took his Harrowing) and not long after Hira left to join the Inquisition, which didn't form until 9:41, that does allow sufficient time for the newly formed Venatori to have killed her father under the leadership of Corypheus. Bearing in mind they used a dragon to fry him and no one among the Venatori other than Cory showed any propensity to be able to control dragons, that would seem to suggest it was likely Cory's dragon that did the deed. Still, rather like cockroaches, the Venatori do seem rather persistent and difficult to kill off. I suppose that is hardly surprising given there are always going to be people of this type trying to gain power, particularly when you have an elite in society who want to restore what they see as the glory of the past. That does not of itself make them impressive, just annoying and dangerous,
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Post by gervaise21 on Apr 1, 2023 13:15:53 GMT
The Venatori like the Red Templars are only existing because they needed a faction the player can fight regardless of their choices. They are the evil mages faction. Long may this continue to be the case. I definitely don't want the option of teaming up with them, or worse, being forced to. I think the Antaam are going to fill a similar role with respect to the Qun. They are the ones you can always fight regardless but it will be the agents from Par Vollen who you might want to work with, whilst the corresponding faction from Tevinter will either be the Lucerni or the Sicarri.
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Post by cuthbertbeckett on Apr 1, 2023 13:30:08 GMT
I definitely don't want the option of teaming up with them, or worse, being forced to Well why not? For an evil playthrough as an option...
But this doesn´t happen because they are complete cartoon evil and besides having some "good" people in it there is no redemption for this faction. I hope not because i really don´t want to fight Sten sorry the Arishok.
Also fighting the Antaam again i don´t know i prefer to explore the Ben-Hassrath more. And don´t forget that in Trespasser the Viddasala want to kill all southern leaders first.
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Post by gervaise21 on Apr 1, 2023 15:10:57 GMT
I hope not because i really don´t want to fight Sten sorry the Arishok. I honestly wonder if he is dead because he hasn't been specifically referenced since WoT2 when it was made clear that the Sicaari had identified him as a major threat because he was a long term planner who was prepared to use intelligence and agents in the field to soften up the opposition, rather than relying on all out attack. The decision to attack Antiva before defeating Tevinter seemed out of character to me, particularly for someone who had changed the outlook of the Antaam previously to a more strategic use of resources. They are now fighting on two fronts and have broken Llomerryn Accord, automatically bringing in the rest of the southern nations against them, when they could have kept Tevinter isolated because the others were reluctant to break the Accord themselves. By contrast, the Viddasala plot was very much in keeping with his strategy. Take out all the southern leaders in quick coup and then assume control in the subsequent chaos before they have a chance to regroup. That is why I didn't believe the denial from Par Vollen, as the Viddasala's plan could only have worked if the Antaam was fully mobilised to act the moment the bombs went off. No doubt they were planning on using the eluvian network as well to move behind enemy lines without being detected. However, once the element of surprise had been removed and the bombs neutralised, it was also understandable that there would be damage limitation in the form of washing their hands and denying involvement in her plans. I also understood that with his army primed and ready to go, the Arishok might well have thought the time was right to launch an attack on mainland Tevinter. What came as a surprise was that the Antaam had done this independently of Par Vollen. That made no sense to me. According to WoT, the Arishok has complete autonomy of action when it comes to military decisions because the "Body" is his responsibility. The only way in which Par Vollen would be involved is via Rasaan, whose purpose is to specifically advise the Arishok on what is appropriate to the Qun on behalf of the Ariqun. However, if Rasaan had been advised by the Ariqun not to go ahead with the invasion but decided to ignore it, then that might account for the split. I think the Antaam generally may turn out to be one of those obstacles to getting somewhere in our journey, and may be with a side-quest or two connected to them, like in the comic when Varric and Harding took time out from their hunt to free some captives of the Antaam. It is also curious that they seem to consistently refer to the Antaam now when talking about the invading force and not the Qun, suggesting they are going to keep the distinction between them.
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Post by Iddy on Apr 1, 2023 15:14:14 GMT
I worry a little about what is gonna happen to the elves when all is said and done.
If it becomes public knowledge that the Dread Wolf's ranks are filled with elven agents, the retaliation might make Celene's purge look like a slap on the wrist.
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Post by gervaise21 on Apr 1, 2023 18:30:47 GMT
I worry a little about what is gonna happen to the elves when all is said and done. That's always been my worry, particularly with the Dalish because they seemed to be setting them up as idiot fall guys in DAI and Trespasser. Luckily the latest comic seems to be reversing the trend. Apparently, this group weren't even that aware of Fen'Harel having returned until they encountered Varric and Harding. Also, they have shown themselves willing to work with humans against a common threat, which seems to be getting back more to the sort of Dalish depicted in DAO than in Masked Empire. If it becomes public knowledge that the Dread Wolf's ranks are filled with elven agents, This is the big qualifier. The epilogue to Trespasser suggested that not everyone believed the Inquisitor's story even if they were made party to it. However, I don't know how many people were made aware of it beyond the Inquisition, as even those who did believe that Fen'Harel was real, were still wondering what he was going to do with the elves would were defecting to him. That suggests the Inquisitor and their advisers probably decided not to mention the bit about destroying the world. It is noticeable that Varric and Harding are not divulging information about Solas to people generally, only those like this group in Arlathan that have been directly affected by him and thus are likely to want to help. Even so, they originally persuaded them by using the threat of the Venatori acquiring the item. I am still puzzled how they seem convinced Solas is responsible for the strange activity in the forest. I know it might have something to do with the level of magic that seems involved but does that automatically mean Solas when apparently there are numerous magical artifacts out there just waiting to be claimed? Also, in the short story "The Ruins of Reality", the weirdness in that part of the forest seemed to stop when Strife and Irelin succeeded in recovering the halla statue. So, was that story set before or after their meeting with Varric/Harding? If before, it is strange no reference was made to the statue and its ability to normalise the immediate area. Also, there was a strange journal in which writing started to appear that directed Strife to the part of the forest where the statue was but no mention of that either. Perhaps that information is being saved for the game but it is curious they weren't mentioned at all.
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights
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Post by gervaise21 on Apr 7, 2023 18:34:18 GMT
Was thinking again about the note that Solas left Varric: Varric, You need not have worried. The artifact was never in danger of falling into Venatori hands. I hope that in time you give up this pursuit. What must be done will be done cautiously, and I will limit damage as best I can. I have no wish to be the villain in one of your stories, but interfering in matters you do not understand can only make things worse. Solas
I've realised that he seems to be specifically appealing to Varric rather than suggesting he tell the Inquisitor to call off the pursuit. I know that perhaps he assumes the information will be conveyed back to them but I wonder if it is another indication how the Inquisitor is going to be side-lined going forward.
Also, with respect to the Veil Jumpers and the strange phenomena in Arlathan Forest, I suddenly called to mind our quest in DAO involving the Lady of the Forest. If you recall there was some strange illusion magic going on there that prevented us from entering her part of the forest without the aid of the Poet Tree. Now the Lady wasn't summoned from the Fade by Zathrian but out of the earth and, since it remembered the elves planting the forest and was able to counter her magic, I assume the spirit possessing the tree was of a similar origin to the Lady. So, do you suppose they are reviving the idea of spirits not tied to the Fade that were around before the Veil but not associated with the elven civilisation, rather nature itself, with their own special brand of magic?
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Post by dayze on Apr 7, 2023 19:32:13 GMT
I worry a little about what is gonna happen to the elves when all is said and done. If it becomes public knowledge that the Dread Wolf's ranks are filled with elven agents, the retaliation might make Celene's purge look like a slap on the wrist. Yeah about the only way for the elves to get around that might be to heavily involve groups like the friends of red jenny that are hardcore pro-common man types while may be pulling on other disenfranchised groups as well plus getting allies among the nobility who would profit from the chaos and shaking up of the old hierarchies. Well, that and pivoting attention humanities attention to more direct threats at the time like the Qunari or the Tevinter imperium while they regroup and build a variety of fortresses and safe spaces during humanities focus on that.
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