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Post by hulluliini on Nov 15, 2022 8:25:29 GMT
I've always wondered why so many people seem to be so fond of Legion, and of Geth by extension? I have always loved their design, both in visuals and audio. I especially appreciate when their lens flare-ified eyes cinematically look at the camera. Pretty shallow when compared to moral reasonings. I also feel too invested to justify cutting them from further story development. Their lore have intrigued me ever since I saw them worshipping Reaper idols on Feros. I took the effort to include Legion and Tali in as many story related opportunities as possible and their strenuous bonding experience would feel wasted if I sacrificed either of them. I connected more with them than the consequences of the ongoing battle, which I unfortunately mainly saw as war assets. While their story is highly intertwined, I would like the Quarians and Geth to have narrative sovereignty in the future. Let Geth do their own thing, and while it was interesting to witness the other races' prejudice against the Quarians (mainly because they are blamed for the Geth menace), I think they could be narratively interesting in other ways. I'm intrigued to see how well they fared with the races that joined them on their ark. I thought it was interesting to see the Geth worship the Reaper on Feros, too bad it was never shown again. Don't get me wrong, I find them interesting and there are a lot of cool things to do with Geth and Quarians working together, but they are still just one race out of many and giving them undue importance in the choice of the fate of the galaxy seems wrong. But clearly we're going to have Geth again while the reapers are dead, so...
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Nov 15, 2022 8:32:27 GMT
Maybe I misunderstood. There are three potential choices and, for me, morality demands that I can't sacrifice an entire race in order to "defeat" the Reapers, especially when there are alternatives (lesser of three evils?). I got the impression that you were saying it would be abhorrent to take that into consideration when choosing the fate of the galaxy? Why should you be disgusted that someone wanted to make a choice to save the galaxy that didn't involve destroying an entire race? All three of the choices are morally ambiguous. I don't think there's meant to be a right answer. I tend to go by mathematics, the "ruthless calculus of war", so to me Destroy is the most moral choice (not saying it is perfect, just the best out of lousy options). I suppose Control looks ok on the surface but it makes me uneasy. And so many people just seem to think about wanting to keep their squaddies and a single race alive just because they are fond of one specific platform and screw everyone else. The choice seems to be based on personal feelings rather than truly trying to make a moral decision and I just don't understand that. For instance, I couldn't justify to myself not sacrificing Earth if it meant I could save an entire galaxy of sentient beings. Or maybe I'll smash an asteroid into a mass relay even if it means sacrificing thousands of Batarians because otherwise we're all doomed. I take the choice very seriously as you can tell, lol. If you are going by mathematics, you should be opposed to Destroy since it causes the most deaths (besides Refuse). Also it’s not just the Geth you are genociding, it is any other synthetic race out there or any organic race that are only alive through synthetics. For example the Virtual Aliens who uploaded themselves to computer’s in their ships to survive the death of their world are all killed too. Meanwhile Control kills only two beings and Synthesis kills only one. But as seen in your explanation your decision was guided by emotion too, in that the other options made you feel uneasy despite being logically sound. And there’s nothing moral about a genocide, ever. Ugh, I hate the Arrival DLC. So many forced contrivances and character assassinations just to try to make that “hard choice” seem like good writing and impactful.
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Post by hulluliini on Nov 15, 2022 8:45:10 GMT
I tend to go by mathematics, the "ruthless calculus of war", so to me Destroy is the most moral choice (not saying it is perfect, just the best out of lousy options). I suppose Control looks ok on the surface but it makes me uneasy. And so many people just seem to think about wanting to keep their squaddies and a single race alive just because they are fond of one specific platform and screw everyone else. The choice seems to be based on personal feelings rather than truly trying to make a moral decision and I just don't understand that. For instance, I couldn't justify to myself not sacrificing Earth if it meant I could save an entire galaxy of sentient beings. Or maybe I'll smash an asteroid into a mass relay even if it means sacrificing thousands of Batarians because otherwise we're all doomed. I take the choice very seriously as you can tell, lol. If you are going by mathematics, you should be opposed to Destroy since it causes the most deaths (besides Refuse). Also it’s not just the Geth you are genociding, it is any other synthetic race out there or any organic race that are only alive through synthetics. For example the Virtual Aliens who uploaded themselves to computer’s in their ships to survive the death of their world are all killed too. Meanwhile Control kills only two beings and Synthesis kills only one. But as seen in your explanation your decision was guided by emotion too, in that the other options made you feel uneasy despite being logically sound. Ugh, I hate the Arrival DLC. So many forced contrivances and character assassinations just to try to make that “hard choice” seem like good writing and impactful. I can't go around the galaxy asking every single person for informed consent for being synthesized, changed on a fundamental level that nobody understands. I cannot give informed consent myself because I am not informed. I only have the Starchild's few vague words. Not enough to make an informed, moral decision on behalf of everyone. I have the mandate to kill the reapers. I don't have the permission to change everyone on a cellular level permanently without asking first. And the emotion I have is not for some select group of people but for every living sentient being. There's a difference. While Control seems good, it seems too good to be true, LOGICALLY, not emotionally, that is, I don't trust that there isn't some way the reapers could come back or Shepard could turn into a malevolent god (or a god who thinks it's benevolent but actually isn't) or something like that. Since the beginning, Destroy was the plan. Changing the plan at last minute seems incredibly reckless to me. Of course, if we do trust that everything Starchild says is true, both that it's not manipulating us and also somehow knowing for certain what Control or Synthesis would mean to intelligent live in the galaxy for millennia to come, then yes, I agree that Synthesis and Control are options to seriously consider.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Nov 15, 2022 8:58:28 GMT
If you are going by mathematics, you should be opposed to Destroy since it causes the most deaths (besides Refuse). Also it’s not just the Geth you are genociding, it is any other synthetic race out there or any organic race that are only alive through synthetics. For example the Virtual Aliens who uploaded themselves to computer’s in their ships to survive the death of their world are all killed too. Meanwhile Control kills only two beings and Synthesis kills only one. But as seen in your explanation your decision was guided by emotion too, in that the other options made you feel uneasy despite being logically sound. Ugh, I hate the Arrival DLC. So many forced contrivances and character assassinations just to try to make that “hard choice” seem like good writing and impactful. I can't go around the galaxy asking every single person for informed consent for being synthesized, changed on a fundamental level that nobody understands. I cannot give informed consent myself because I am not informed. I only have the Starchild's few vague words. Not enough to make an informed, moral decision on behalf of everyone. I have the mandate to kill the reapers. I don't have the permission to change everyone on a cellular level permanently without asking first. And the emotion I have is not for some select group of people but for every living sentient being. There's a difference. While Control seems good, it seems too good to be true, LOGICALLY, not emotionally, that is, I don't trust that there isn't some way the reapers could come back or Shepard could turn into a malevolent god (or a god who thinks it's benevolent but actually isn't) or something like that. Since the beginning, Destroy was the plan. Changing the plan at last minute seems incredibly reckless to me. Of course, if we do trust that everything Starchild says is true, both that it's not manipulating us and also somehow knowing for certain what Control or Synthesis would mean to intelligent live in the galaxy for millennia to come, then yes, I agree that Synthesis and Control are options to seriously consider. And yet you can murder trillions plus who knows how many else out there without their consent? That’s definitely not making a moral decision for everyone. That’s committing the gravest atrocity in our cycle’s history. And not very logical either, since it will forever have synthetics (once they come around again) be opposed to organics. After all, why trust organics when the last time synthetics did that they were stabbed in the back and wiped out. So why even attempt to try, when logically it would be better to wipe organics out to protect themselves from any potential future betrayal. The mandate is to stop the Reapers. Destroying them was assumed to be the only way, but that is no longer the case. Speaking of trusting the Catalyst, that goes both ways. If you can’t trust him on the effects of Control or Synthesis, you can’t trust him on Destroy either. Especially since that one is the most dubious, him telling you how to kill him is to damage the thing you made to kill him? Not trying to get into a full on debate about the endings, especially since BioWare’s decision seems to have been to throw all three away or maybe some combination of the three (really hope they don’t just go ‘Destroy lite’ but actually address the three decisions somehow). Just wanted to address those points you made.
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Post by hulluliini on Nov 15, 2022 13:09:55 GMT
I can't go around the galaxy asking every single person for informed consent for being synthesized, changed on a fundamental level that nobody understands. I cannot give informed consent myself because I am not informed. I only have the Starchild's few vague words. Not enough to make an informed, moral decision on behalf of everyone. I have the mandate to kill the reapers. I don't have the permission to change everyone on a cellular level permanently without asking first. And the emotion I have is not for some select group of people but for every living sentient being. There's a difference. While Control seems good, it seems too good to be true, LOGICALLY, not emotionally, that is, I don't trust that there isn't some way the reapers could come back or Shepard could turn into a malevolent god (or a god who thinks it's benevolent but actually isn't) or something like that. Since the beginning, Destroy was the plan. Changing the plan at last minute seems incredibly reckless to me. Of course, if we do trust that everything Starchild says is true, both that it's not manipulating us and also somehow knowing for certain what Control or Synthesis would mean to intelligent live in the galaxy for millennia to come, then yes, I agree that Synthesis and Control are options to seriously consider. And yet you can murder trillions plus who knows how many else out there without their consent? That’s definitely not making a moral decision for everyone. That’s committing the gravest atrocity in our cycle’s history. And not very logical either, since it will forever have synthetics (once they come around again) be opposed to organics. After all, why trust organics when the last time synthetics did that they were stabbed in the back and wiped out. So why even attempt to try, when logically it would be better to wipe organics out to protect themselves from any potential future betrayal. The mandate is to stop the Reapers. Destroying them was assumed to be the only way, but that is no longer the case. Speaking of trusting the Catalyst, that goes both ways. If you can’t trust him on the effects of Control or Synthesis, you can’t trust him on Destroy either. Especially since that one is the most dubious, him telling you how to kill him is to damage the thing you made to kill him? Not trying to get into a full on debate about the endings, especially since BioWare’s decision seems to have been to throw all three away or maybe some combination of the three (really hope they don’t just go ‘Destroy lite’ but actually address the three decisions somehow). Just wanted to address those points you made. As I said, ruthless calculus of war. The Geth programs don't count the same way as organic sentient beings as we know too little about them. Placing undue emphasis on saving synthetic life is immoral, IMO. I would make the choice if it meant sacrificing the Quarians instead of the Geth. And only saving the Geth because they might turn against us in the future is a ridiculous basis for sacrificing the independence and entire point of living for everyone else.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Nov 15, 2022 18:05:43 GMT
And yet you can murder trillions plus who knows how many else out there without their consent? That’s definitely not making a moral decision for everyone. That’s committing the gravest atrocity in our cycle’s history. And not very logical either, since it will forever have synthetics (once they come around again) be opposed to organics. After all, why trust organics when the last time synthetics did that they were stabbed in the back and wiped out. So why even attempt to try, when logically it would be better to wipe organics out to protect themselves from any potential future betrayal. The mandate is to stop the Reapers. Destroying them was assumed to be the only way, but that is no longer the case. Speaking of trusting the Catalyst, that goes both ways. If you can’t trust him on the effects of Control or Synthesis, you can’t trust him on Destroy either. Especially since that one is the most dubious, him telling you how to kill him is to damage the thing you made to kill him? Not trying to get into a full on debate about the endings, especially since BioWare’s decision seems to have been to throw all three away or maybe some combination of the three (really hope they don’t just go ‘Destroy lite’ but actually address the three decisions somehow). Just wanted to address those points you made. As I said, ruthless calculus of war. The Geth programs don't count the same way as organic sentient beings as we know too little about them. Placing undue emphasis on saving synthetic life is immoral, IMO. I would make the choice if it meant sacrificing the Quarians instead of the Geth. And only saving the Geth because they might turn against us in the future is a ridiculous basis for sacrificing the independence and entire point of living for everyone else. Then don’t claim it is the moral choice. Because mass murdering people, especially when other options exist, is the exact opposite of moral. That’s racist. I was placing “undue emphasis” on saving lives in general. You know, the actual moral thing to do. I see you completely misunderstood my point. I wasn’t talking about the Geth turning on us. I was talking about future synthetic races that would arise.
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Post by Son of Dorn on Nov 15, 2022 19:02:26 GMT
*enters topic and see's what's going on*
*Leaves topic*
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Post by dmc1001 on Nov 15, 2022 20:37:09 GMT
In my understanding, even Destroy cannot possibly destroy all synthetics because it seems to work through the relay system. You could fly away from a relay-linked system and avoid the destruction. There could be pockets of Geth isolated from the network? Like the ones who went to Andromeda? Yeah, StarBrat was a liar and it knew it was lying. There are always places to hide that are outside of reach of the relays. Similarly, given Synthesis, not everyone would be altered. See: MEA and probably anyplace where no relay exists. Which, when you think about it, is a lot of places, even in the explored areas. Lots of clusters have a couple of relays but they also have star systems that are away from said relays.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Nov 15, 2022 21:02:22 GMT
In my understanding, even Destroy cannot possibly destroy all synthetics because it seems to work through the relay system. You could fly away from a relay-linked system and avoid the destruction. There could be pockets of Geth isolated from the network? Like the ones who went to Andromeda? Yeah, StarBrat was a liar and it knew it was lying. There are always places to hide that are outside of reach of the relays. Similarly, given Synthesis, not everyone would be altered. See: MEA and probably anyplace where no relay exists. Which, when you think about it, is a lot of places, even in the explored areas. Lots of clusters have a couple of relays but they also have star systems that are away from said relays. Except we literally see the waves spread far from the Mass Relays and cover the entire galaxy in a cutscene. You are correct about anything that went beyond the galaxy wouldn’t be affected.
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Post by hulluliini on Nov 16, 2022 7:45:09 GMT
As I said, ruthless calculus of war. The Geth programs don't count the same way as organic sentient beings as we know too little about them. Placing undue emphasis on saving synthetic life is immoral, IMO. I would make the choice if it meant sacrificing the Quarians instead of the Geth. And only saving the Geth because they might turn against us in the future is a ridiculous basis for sacrificing the independence and entire point of living for everyone else. Then don’t claim it is the moral choice. Because mass murdering people, especially when other options exist, is the exact opposite of moral. That’s racist. I was placing “undue emphasis” on saving lives in general. You know, the actual moral thing to do. I see you completely misunderstood my point. I wasn’t talking about the Geth turning on us. I was talking about future synthetic races that would arise. You have also completely misunderstood my point(s). Anyway, what I was thinking about originally was people who choose Synthesis or Control because Legion and thereby all Geth are cool and Joker will be sad if his girlfriend EDI dies. You think you have a well weighted justification for your canon ending and that's fine, even though I don't agree with your logic. But I really, really don't understand people who play a role-playing game and roleplay a supposed hero who only cares about saving their friends. It's a non-immersed, gamified way of looking at the choice.
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Post by hulluliini on Nov 16, 2022 7:52:44 GMT
Like the ones who went to Andromeda? Yeah, StarBrat was a liar and it knew it was lying. There are always places to hide that are outside of reach of the relays. Similarly, given Synthesis, not everyone would be altered. See: MEA and probably anyplace where no relay exists. Which, when you think about it, is a lot of places, even in the explored areas. Lots of clusters have a couple of relays but they also have star systems that are away from said relays. Except we literally see the waves spread far from the Mass Relays and cover the entire galaxy in a cutscene. You are correct about anything that went beyond the galaxy wouldn’t be affected. I rewatched the ending after you mentioned this a while back. If you look closely, we don't actually see the entire galaxy covered. The colored beam spreads via relays about half-way through "north" and then the camera cuts away. Of course we are meant to assume that it will continue like that but if we really want to nitpick, we can say that actually at the edges there are systems outside its reach because the galaxy doesn't have clearcut edges and the reapers had to make a decision at some point to no longer build more relays because the galaxy is roughly covered and distances are getting greater. Or Bioware can say that dormant relays were not affected because the Crucible beam will only work on active relays. There are plenty of ways to solve this if it's what they want to do. The starbrat doesn't have to be a liar, just have imperfect information and not realise it because it's not fully sentient.
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Post by hulluliini on Nov 16, 2022 7:56:40 GMT
In my understanding, even Destroy cannot possibly destroy all synthetics because it seems to work through the relay system. You could fly away from a relay-linked system and avoid the destruction. There could be pockets of Geth isolated from the network? Like the ones who went to Andromeda? Yeah, StarBrat was a liar and it knew it was lying. There are always places to hide that are outside of reach of the relays. Similarly, given Synthesis, not everyone would be altered. See: MEA and probably anyplace where no relay exists. Which, when you think about it, is a lot of places, even in the explored areas. Lots of clusters have a couple of relays but they also have star systems that are away from said relays. Or it was simply not intelligent enough and making assumptions based on its limited programming. But I agree there are plenty of loopholes for Bioware to exploit if they want to and based on what we've seen so far, it's looking like it. How the majority of fans is going to react to a watered down version of what was implied by the endings is another matter...
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Post by themikefest on Nov 16, 2022 12:36:40 GMT
Except we literally see the waves spread far from the Mass Relays and cover the entire galaxy in a cutscene. You are correct about anything that went beyond the galaxy wouldn’t be affected. I rewatched the ending after you mentioned this a while back. If you look closely, we don't actually see the entire galaxy covered. The colored beam spreads via relays about half-way through "north" and then the camera cuts away. Of course we are meant to assume that it will continue like that but if we really want to nitpick, we can say that actually at the edges there are systems outside its reach because the galaxy doesn't have clearcut edges and the reapers had to make a decision at some point to no longer build more relays because the galaxy is roughly covered and distances are getting greater. Or Bioware can say that dormant relays were not affected because the Crucible beam will only work on active relays. There are plenty of ways to solve this if it's what they want to do. The starbrat doesn't have to be a liar, just have imperfect information and not realise it because it's not fully sentient. Look at a low ems ending. The player sees earth being scorched with everyone being killed yet during the epilogue it shows the Alliance guy, I'm assuming is on earth, picking up a helmet. How did he survive? Was he underground? If that's the case could some of the reapers survive? Look at Rannoch. Could that reaper survive the red if it remained in the bunker? Could some of the uglies survive? Also look at the unknown planet the SR2 is on. The planet looks pristine versus what happened to earth. If what I said is true/possible, could the same be applied to all endings? What about thing? It could have some of the reapers leave the galaxy as Shepard shoots the tube. Could thing have downloaded itself to another location, say the relay in darkspace? I would guess there's another space station near it. There is nothing to say the red wave reached that far. Like the ones who went to Andromeda? Yeah, StarBrat was a liar and it knew it was lying. There are always places to hide that are outside of reach of the relays. Similarly, given Synthesis, not everyone would be altered. See: MEA and probably anyplace where no relay exists. Which, when you think about it, is a lot of places, even in the explored areas. Lots of clusters have a couple of relays but they also have star systems that are away from said relays. Or it was simply not intelligent enough and making assumptions based on its limited programming. If anything, it was misleading the organic. Look at how much it buttered up the green versus what it says about the other two. It wanted to survive. There are plenty. Bioware will find some weaselly way to work around to implement whatever they want. Bioware doesn't care. They will make whatever they want.
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Post by hulluliini on Nov 17, 2022 8:08:27 GMT
Bioware doesn't care. They will make whatever they want. And give the final death blow to the IP, yay.
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