darthshadielavellan
N1
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Posts: 40 Likes: 40
inherit
11882
0
40
darthshadielavellan
40
Apr 13, 2021 11:42:27 GMT
April 2021
darthshadielavellan
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
|
Post by darthshadielavellan on Nov 27, 2022 4:43:43 GMT
This is all very interesting. I never considered that the Evanuris could specifically be in charge of parts of Thedas, like a domain where they reigned, but it makes sense. I would however state that Fen'Harel IS one of the Evanuris. He is BOTH Evanuris and Forgotten One, which is how he tricked them both. Solas even called the Evanuris "my people." In Trespasser, Solas refers to the Evanuris as "the first of my people." I don't remember him calling them "his people." Hmm, I hadn't considered it that way. Then he must be lesser than them in power, not as powerful as the Evanuris were, else he would have already torn down the Veil.
|
|
inherit
12362
0
213
n7double07
219
November 2022
n7double07
|
Post by n7double07 on Nov 27, 2022 5:35:21 GMT
In Trespasser, Solas refers to the Evanuris as "the first of my people." I don't remember him calling them "his people." Hmm, I hadn't considered it that way. Then he must be lesser than them in power, not as powerful as the Evanuris were, else he would have already torn down the Veil. I doubt the Evanuris are powerful enough to remove the Veil on their own either. Something possibly imbued with the Titans'/some other type of power like the Orb of Destruction or the Red Lyrium idol is probably required.
|
|
darthshadielavellan
N1
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Posts: 40 Likes: 40
inherit
11882
0
40
darthshadielavellan
40
Apr 13, 2021 11:42:27 GMT
April 2021
darthshadielavellan
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
|
Post by darthshadielavellan on Nov 27, 2022 6:15:28 GMT
Hmm, I hadn't considered it that way. Then he must be lesser than them in power, not as powerful as the Evanuris were, else he would have already torn down the Veil. I doubt the Evanuris are powerful enough to remove the Veil on their own either. Something possibly imbued with the Titans'/some other type of power like the Orb of Destruction or the Red Lyrium idol is probably required. In Tevinter Nights, Solas's ritual has already begun, so I wonder what he used to begin it. I suspect, though, that perhaps he began the ritual BUT still needs components/circumstances to fully tear down the Veil.
|
|
inherit
12362
0
213
n7double07
219
November 2022
n7double07
|
Post by n7double07 on Nov 27, 2022 6:48:06 GMT
In Tevinter Nights, Solas's ritual has already begun, so I wonder what he used to begin it. I suspect, though, that perhaps he began the ritual BUT still needs components/circumstances to fully tear down the Veil. Maybe the double blight to weaken the Veil (turning Razikale and Lusacan Architect style?)
And needs other artifacts + his followers in strategic points
He could also be waiting for the Qunari to attack
|
|
inherit
∯ Oh Loredy...
455
0
31,186
gervaise21
13,101
August 2016
gervaise21
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights
|
Post by gervaise21 on Nov 27, 2022 8:52:33 GMT
In Trespasser, Solas refers to the Evanuris as "the first of my people." I don't remember him calling them "his people." I've always taken this to have two possible meanings. They are the "first" because they are the leaders but also because they came first into the world, which actually fits with Dalish legends. Thus, he does think of them as "his" people. I would also point out that Abelas acknowledged Solas as one of his own people (an elvhen) but rejected Lavellan and the other Dalish as having a kinship with him. He specifically calls the latter "shadows wearing vallaslin", so many generations have left them substantially different from the ancient ones. I think the term Evanuris simply means "leaders" since the sword "Evanura" was held by the leader of the Emerald Knights. That would fit with how Solas describes their rise to power from being leaders in a war, to kings and then gods. There are many hints in Trespasser that they probably originated as spirits from the Fade that took on material form when they crossed over into the Waking World and this seems confirmed by the fact that Solas, who was considered one of them, identifies with spirits more than the elves. We assume they are just powerful elven mages but Flemeth described Mythal as an " ancient being" rather than simply an ancient elf, so it could be they were something more than just an elf to begin with, or she simply wanted to make the distinction between Mythal and modern elves, although at other times she does not draw a distinction when it comes to "the People". Back in DA2 she asked Merrill, who is showing deference towards her, if she is aware of who she truly is and when Merrill denies knowledge, Flemeth admonishes her with "the People are too quick to bow the knee". She also says to Lavellan "You do the People proud". I've always found it curious that Flemeth, and presumably Mythal, has such a different attitude to her own priesthood. However, I have mentioned in the past that perhaps it was the elves over time and particularly the Dalish, who allowed Mythal to return as herself rather than her essence reform as a different identity, because they preserved memory of her as a living being whereas her priesthood saw her as dead and gone. (See Avvar beliefs in JoH for the explanation of this theory). In terms of being like those that became known as the Evanuris, it depends on what they were and how powerful compared with those they ruled over. To some extent it would seem that the "gods" of the Avvar are similar beings, that is powerful spirits that can grant prayers and if necessary, can be called into the Waking World from the Fade to assist their worshipers. As for other beings out in the world already, we have encountered three different Forbidden Ones in previous games and we know from Trespasser they gained that title because Elgar'nan banished them from the lands of the Evanuris, ostensibly for cowardice. Apparently, we have yet to meet the Formless One, so maybe that is something we will encounter in DA:D. It is also possible there are spirits of nature, like the Lady of the Forest, that are connected to the land rather than the Fade, so could be encountered if summoned or otherwise awakened. Another curiosity that may be relevant. The Crossroads looks different to elves. I've not been there as anything other than an elf but apparently it is more colourful to an elf. Also, I think Sera may reference this. In Masked Empire it actually reacts to the elves, becoming more colourful at their touch, and it has a bad effect on the humans, making them fatigued and dizzy, so they move more slowly within it. This didn't transfer into the game as it would have been too difficult to implement, so it is unclear if the Qunari would be similarly affected as that might give some clue to their origins. However, it is interesting that something constructed for use by elves reacts differently when non-elves try to use it.
|
|
inherit
∯ Oh Loredy...
455
0
31,186
gervaise21
13,101
August 2016
gervaise21
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights
|
Post by gervaise21 on Nov 27, 2022 9:07:04 GMT
Then he must be lesser than them in power, not as powerful as the Evanuris were, else he would have already torn down the Veil. He needed the orb before so it is logical to assume he needed something similar this time round. Even absorbing Mythal's power would likely not be enough, since she was likely not at full strength on her return to the world as Flemeth. In Tevinter Nights, Solas's ritual has already begun, so I wonder what he used to begin it. I suspect, though, that perhaps he began the ritual BUT still needs components/circumstances to fully tear down the Veil. When we encounter Corypheus at Haven, he says that we interrupted a ritual years in the making. That was curious because Solas tells us it was he who authorised giving his orb to Cory and that he only awoke a year before he joined the Inquisition. So, clearly Cory had started a ritual that needed the orb to complete it. Where did Cory get his information from? Was it merely the same ritual that he had used in the past but he had insufficient lyrium/red lyrium/sacrificial victims to power it? Or was it a different ritual that he had learned from somewhere or someone? Was he prompted by a follower of Fen'Harel acting upon orders given through the Fade? (As Felassan appears to have done). Or did Solas speak directly into his mind via his dreams? Was it Cory undertaking the ritual that caused Solas to awake when he did? I've always been puzzled at the time of this. Felassan was awake for around 20 years preparing for his return, so it would seem to have been planned. Was it a case of him waiting for the orb to recharge and then set events in motion that he could just enact the final pieces once he was awake? Solas says that elven magic often took years to reach fruition and this would undoubtedly be true for the most powerful spells, so it would make sense that he could have started his ritual again, whilst he went looking for the items he needed to complete it. Corypheus also told his slave that elves' blood was different to that of other races (known at that time) and that this was due to the elves of old being tied to the Fade so that magic lived in their blood. Apart from wondering where Cory got his information from, it would seem very significant that modern elves born since the Veil was created still have this attribute. It is also why I am concerned as to what use Solas might have for all those modern elves flocking to join him.
|
|
inherit
12362
0
213
n7double07
219
November 2022
n7double07
|
Post by n7double07 on Nov 27, 2022 9:57:00 GMT
I've always taken this to have two possible meanings. They are the "first" because they are the leaders but also because they came first into the world, which actually fits with Dalish legends. Thus, he does think of them as "his" people. 'The people' in that quote just means elves in general. The 'first of his people,' meaning they're the highest ranking/most powerful of the Arlathanian elves -- Solas' people; it could also have a double meaning like you said. That quote on its own doesn't imply that he's one of the Evanuris, and we have a bunch of evidence that contradicts this. He was hailed as the 'Rebel God' after he rallied against them. The Evanuris were a specific group of elves, not just any elf that brandished themselves or was considered by others a god.
|
|
theascendent
N3
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
PSN: The Ascendent
Posts: 623 Likes: 823
inherit
9275
0
Dec 12, 2024 12:10:57 GMT
823
theascendent
623
Aug 28, 2017 10:17:49 GMT
August 2017
theascendent
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
The Ascendent
|
Post by theascendent on Nov 27, 2022 10:34:32 GMT
I doubt that we will be facing all the Evanuris at once, way too many interesting characters and not enough game to completely explore all of them. Considering our focus on Northern Thedas, mainly the Anderfels, Antiva and Tevinter, if concept art, trailers and miscellaneous materials is to be trusted we might want to narrow down the ones we might face. Aside from Solas/Fen'Harel and Mythal, I think the most likely are Ghilan'nain, due to the heavy emphasis on the sea, all the stories from supplementary media, Andruil due to the Arlathan Forest, maybe Dirthamen and have Falon'Din as a DLC set in Neverra.
|
|
inherit
12362
0
213
n7double07
219
November 2022
n7double07
|
Post by n7double07 on Nov 27, 2022 11:13:38 GMT
I doubt that we will be facing all the Evanuris at once, way too many interesting characters and not enough game to completely explore all of them. Considering our focus on Northern Thedas, mainly the Anderfels, Antiva and Tevinter, if concept art, trailers and miscellaneous materials is to be trusted we might want to narrow down the ones we might face. Aside from Solas/Fen'Harel and Mythal, I think the most likely are Ghilan'nain, due to the heavy emphasis on the sea, all the stories from supplementary media, Andruil due to the Arlathan Forest, maybe Dirthamen and have Falon'Din as a DLC set in Neverra. There are two figures on the mural near Solas in one of the trailers. Most theories have it as some combo of those four, usually with Ghil and Andruil together or Falon'Din and Dirthamen together. The latter combo seems to be more popular.
That said, I hope they aren't the only ones we'll see; it would be odd if we don't see both Elgar'nan and Andruil, whom appear to be the most important of the Evanuris other than Mythal in the grand scheme of things.
June and Sylaise are the most mysterious of the Evanuris at the moment, and I hope we get to meet them, too.
|
|
inherit
12362
0
213
n7double07
219
November 2022
n7double07
|
Post by n7double07 on Nov 27, 2022 11:17:55 GMT
I saw someone say the figures are actually Mythal and Elgar'nan, which fits with one of them looking more masculine and the other more feminine.
|
|
inherit
∯ Oh Loredy...
455
0
31,186
gervaise21
13,101
August 2016
gervaise21
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights
|
Post by gervaise21 on Nov 27, 2022 15:53:49 GMT
June and Sylaise are the most mysterious of the Evanuris at the moment, and I hope we get to meet them, too. Certainly, there have been hints that they are not what the Dalish portray them as, although that is hardly surprising. Sylaise's followers seem to be over effusive in their praise of her, which suggests that she is vain enough to consider it merited, but the only thing that seems definitely associated with her is fire. It is part of the reason I thought at least some of the original Creators were elemental spirits: Elgar'nan = Air/sky (lightning) Mythal = water (sea) and Sylaise = fire. Originally, I thought of Andruil as earth but I now think none of them really fit this as the Titans were the "pillars of the earth". There could also be an element of opposites so Elgar'nan = light versus Falon'Din = darkness, which is why Mythal had to intervene to prevent a war breaking out between them. June is intriguing because the inscription in the Temple of Mythal referring to him suggests not much is known about him, which is odd considering the Dalish say he is known for his crafting and this seems confirmed by the inscription to Sylaise, which says "Sylaise, whose skill rivals June's craft", so the Sylaise's followers at least think that is what he is known for. Whatever his domain of interest, Sylaise apparently doesn't exceed him in skill because the memory in the Vir Dirthara refers to her giving him a gift in thanks for "a great favour", so she obviously asked him to do something she couldn't manage for herself. This would also seem to confirm that they are likely to work together and thus trust one another. Referring back to our previous discussion about dragons who "ruled the skies", in addition to Mythal's association with them, there are two codices to Elgar'nan and Falon'Din that suggest they favoured the dragon form. Elgar'nan's followers ask him to bring "winged death" to those who destroy their work, whilst Falon'Din's refer to "his wings of death that surround him thick as night". Since the Fade is also associated with the sky/air, it does seem likely that it was the Evanuris who were referred to. To be honest, I've always felt those images in the mosaics don't immediately suggest elves to me but something more reptilian, the exception of course being Fen'Harel who is definitely depicted as a wolf.
|
|
darthshadielavellan
N1
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Posts: 40 Likes: 40
inherit
11882
0
40
darthshadielavellan
40
Apr 13, 2021 11:42:27 GMT
April 2021
darthshadielavellan
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
|
Post by darthshadielavellan on Nov 27, 2022 17:32:36 GMT
Then he must be lesser than them in power, not as powerful as the Evanuris were, else he would have already torn down the Veil. He needed the orb before so it is logical to assume he needed something similar this time round. Even absorbing Mythal's power would likely not be enough, since she was likely not at full strength on her return to the world as Flemeth. In Tevinter Nights, Solas's ritual has already begun, so I wonder what he used to begin it. I suspect, though, that perhaps he began the ritual BUT still needs components/circumstances to fully tear down the Veil. When we encounter Corypheus at Haven, he says that we interrupted a ritual years in the making. That was curious because Solas tells us it was he who authorised giving his orb to Cory and that he only awoke a year before he joined the Inquisition. So, clearly Cory had started a ritual that needed the orb to complete it. Where did Cory get his information from? Was it merely the same ritual that he had used in the past but he had insufficient lyrium/red lyrium/sacrificial victims to power it? Or was it a different ritual that he had learned from somewhere or someone? Was he prompted by a follower of Fen'Harel acting upon orders given through the Fade? (As Felassan appears to have done). Or did Solas speak directly into his mind via his dreams? Was it Cory undertaking the ritual that caused Solas to awake when he did? I've always been puzzled at the time of this. Felassan was awake for around 20 years preparing for his return, so it would seem to have been planned. Was it a case of him waiting for the orb to recharge and then set events in motion that he could just enact the final pieces once he was awake? Solas says that elven magic often took years to reach fruition and this would undoubtedly be true for the most powerful spells, so it would make sense that he could have started his ritual again, whilst he went looking for the items he needed to complete it. Corypheus also told his slave that elves' blood was different to that of other races (known at that time) and that this was due to the elves of old being tied to the Fade so that magic lived in their blood. Apart from wondering where Cory got his information from, it would seem very significant that modern elves born since the Veil was created still have this attribute. It is also why I am concerned as to what use Solas might have for all those modern elves flocking to join him. All this makes sense. It's possible that the ancient elves, the leaders, were also part spirit. They were intricately connected to the Fade, as it were, so that would make sense. Solas describes them as powerful mages, powerful mages connected to the Fade would make their subordinates view them as kings and gods.
|
|
inherit
∯ Oh Loredy...
455
0
31,186
gervaise21
13,101
August 2016
gervaise21
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights
|
Post by gervaise21 on Nov 27, 2022 18:46:55 GMT
Solas describes them as powerful mages, powerful mages connected to the Fade would make their subordinates view them as kings and gods. The bit that has always had me puzzled is the effect of the Veil. I could understand it impacting adversely on those who started out as spirits but apparently, even though their ability to do magic was affected, they were still able to transmit their magical signature to their offspring who had never been in direct contact with the Fade. Abelas laments that: " We are trapped. The ones born here do not understand the keenness of what we have lost, or why so many of their elders weep as they enter uthenera. The new ones are faithful to Mythal, but do not understand what she was in her fullness." When he says they do not understand what has been lost, does he just mean Mythal or is he referring to their magical connection to the Fade? He says they are trapped, presumably on the wrong side of the Veil. Still, if he acknowledges that those born outside the Fade are still his people when presumably their parents are followers of Mythal, why is he so dismissive of Lavellan? Okay, so his people have mostly slept through the ages rather than kept on reproducing through successive generations, but Cory seemed confident that their blood was still potent several millennia later, so what exactly made Abelas so adamant that Lavellan did not share kinship with him? The other odd part about the Veil is that whilst it has such a severe impact on the elves, only a short time afterwards human Dreamers appeared. This seems very strange because surely the Veil should have made it less likely. The other thing that has me puzzled is Solas himself. Isn't he affected by the presence of the Veil? It would account for why he was so weak when he awoke. According to Felassan, in ancient times the most powerful dreamers could sustain themselves entirely from the Fade whilst in Uthenera but that was before the Veil, so it must have reduced the nourishment he received. However, it is another indication that the Evanuris and other powerful ancient elves were originally spirits if they could draw on the Fade in that way. It also makes me wonder just how powerful they would be with the Veil removed.
|
|
inherit
11611
0
Dec 12, 2024 10:56:11 GMT
1,671
fairdragon
2,312
Jul 30, 2020 17:14:13 GMT
July 2020
fairdragon
Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate
|
Post by fairdragon on Nov 28, 2022 14:35:37 GMT
seems to be heavily interested in and possibly even reveres the Old Gods earliest Creators to emerge in the Waking World As i said before. I think Mythal was one of the old goods (Dragon) before becoming a Evanuris. She ensures that the sun is released again after the fight with Elgar'nan. Elgar'nans' daddy! Stay with me. Solas states that the Evanuris were generals, then leaders, then gods. This implies the existence of previous leader/s. A king, a president, or ministers, either a normal leader or another "god". Regardless they were replaced by the Evanuris, whether peacefully or in a form of coup. I am on your track. But i think the sun is mythals daddy. Mythal is in my canon a spoils of war. She wants her people to live. So she married Elgar'nan. And that is also the reason why she collects all souls. It is her family.
@ gervaise21 "ancient being" would fit if she is from the former ruler.
|
|
inherit
11611
0
Dec 12, 2024 10:56:11 GMT
1,671
fairdragon
2,312
Jul 30, 2020 17:14:13 GMT
July 2020
fairdragon
Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate
|
Post by fairdragon on Nov 28, 2022 15:01:35 GMT
so what exactly made Abelas so adamant that Lavellan did not share kinship with him a theory. Flemeth daughters can turn into a dragon. I don't think that this is Flemeth doing. So can Mythal give someone her blood? So that Abelas isn't only a worshiper of mythal but also from her blood. but do not understand what she was in her fullness." If mythal is really some royalty in a way and Lavellan from a low worshiper, that would make the differens.
|
|
inherit
Scribbles
185
0
31,578
Hanako Ikezawa
22,991
August 2016
hanakoikezawa
|
Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Nov 28, 2022 18:27:56 GMT
June and Sylaise are the most mysterious of the Evanuris at the moment, and I hope we get to meet them, too. I could see those two as being potential allies. There’s no stories about them being bad like the others.
|
|
inherit
∯ Oh Loredy...
455
0
31,186
gervaise21
13,101
August 2016
gervaise21
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights
|
Post by gervaise21 on Nov 28, 2022 18:40:03 GMT
So that Abelas isn't only a worshiper of mythal but also from her blood. If Corypheus words are correct then their blood is not the problem. I think it is something more spiritual, so their "aura" is different. Solas makes reference to this much earlier in his conversations with the Inquisitor, if he approves of them, when he speaks of a greatness of spirit and even suggests that perhaps it could be the influence of the anchor. However, this could just be flattery on his part and he says this no matter what their race. He also makes specific reference to their spirit for a romanced Lavellan. Now Abelas and Solas both existed before the Veil, so I can understand the similarity there but, as I point out above, Abelas also had members of his community who were born after the Veil, yet despite their lack of understanding of what has been lost, he still sees them as his People, so is it merely that Lavellan is from outside his community that makes Abelas reject them? What I also find interesting is that he is aware of the Dalish, so must have encountered them at some point and I assume it didn't turn out well for the Dalish, considering we can find some Dalish armour discarded in the lower levels and the codex entry for the Arbor Wilds says that the Dalish shun the area. As the scholar says, if the Dalish are afraid of the place, it must be dangerous. So, the sentinels definitely regard the Dalish as no different to anyone else and deserving of death for entering the area. Which is why I found Flemeth/Mythal's attitude so curious as she does regard them as part of the People. I also find it peculiar that she never sought out her own Temple. Did she realise that Abelas and the rest of the priesthood would not accept her in her human form? If they were bound to the will of Mythal, though, as Abelas claims is the case, would not she be able to control them as she does the Drinker of the Well? So, did she avoid them for some other reason?
|
|
inherit
∯ Oh Loredy...
455
0
31,186
gervaise21
13,101
August 2016
gervaise21
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights
|
Post by gervaise21 on Nov 28, 2022 19:04:42 GMT
I could see those two as being potential allies. There’s no stories about them being bad like the others. This is part of the reason I would like the opportunity of speaking to them in person, or at least their own followers. Solas lumped all the Evanuris into one group and pronounced them all guilty of Mythal's death and deserving of punishment, but was this really the case? It is interesting that in the Dalish legends Sylaise and June are portrayed as the ones who gave most practical help to the elves, apart from Andruil and her survival skills connected with hunting, and Sylaise in particular is known for the Vir Atishan, the Way of Peace. I know they got some aspects of the Creators wrong, or perhaps only remembered what they were like in the early days when they were creating elven civilisation, but it is possible that Sylaise was something of a peacemaker or, at the very least, someone who preferred diplomacy over direct aggression. The Dalish also associate her with healing and a protector, particularly of children, which may stem from how she regarded elves of lesser power to herself. It just seems to me that, as with the other gods, there has to be a grain of truth in their understanding of her.
|
|
inherit
12362
0
213
n7double07
219
November 2022
n7double07
|
Post by n7double07 on Nov 28, 2022 22:48:02 GMT
Hanako Ikezawa gervaise21I've considered the possibility that Solas may be lying by omission in some cases. Of the potential Evanuris that may have not been responsible for Mythal's death, Dirthamen is the best candidate. Us not hearing about June and Sylaise doesn't convince me they weren't evil. Were they not, Solas would be lying about the Evanuris essentially fracturing -- I find that hard to believe. It doesn't match with what we know about the world so far, and that seems like it would be *too* much obfuscation on Solas' part. Obviously we're not getting the whole picture, but I'm at least inclined to believe Solas' recounting of the Evanuris in generality, and when he describes the Evanuris the way he does, it doesn't exactly leave too much room for interpretation concerning their malevolence.
|
|
inherit
1398
0
4,633
Absafraginlootly
"Abso-fraggin-lutely!" ~ Captain John Sheridan and Satai Delenn
1,666
September 2016
absafraginlootly
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
|
Post by Absafraginlootly on Nov 28, 2022 23:08:09 GMT
I could see those two as being potential allies. There’s no stories about them being bad like the others. This is part of the reason I would like the opportunity of speaking to them in person, or at least their own followers. Solas lumped all the Evanuris into one group and pronounced them all guilty of Mythal's death and deserving of punishment, but was this really the case? It is interesting that in the Dalish legends Sylaise and June are portrayed as the ones who gave most practical help to the elves, apart from Andruil and her survival skills connected with hunting, and Sylaise in particular is known for the Vir Atishan, the Way of Peace. I know they got some aspects of the Creators wrong, or perhaps only remembered what they were like in the early days when they were creating elven civilisation, but it is possible that Sylaise was something of a peacemaker or, at the very least, someone who preferred diplomacy over direct aggression. The Dalish also associate her with healing and a protector, particularly of children, which may stem from how she regarded elves of lesser power to herself. It just seems to me that, as with the other gods, there has to be a grain of truth in their understanding of her. I have wondered whether, in the sense that Solas is like a Wisdom/Pride spirit and Mythal is Justice/Vengeance, Sylaise is Love/Envy. The former being more in line with the dalish's tales and the later being more in line with the very jealous sounding 'everything you can do I can do better' inscription in the temple of Mythal.
|
|
inherit
Scribbles
185
0
31,578
Hanako Ikezawa
22,991
August 2016
hanakoikezawa
|
Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Nov 29, 2022 1:55:58 GMT
Hanako Ikezawa gervaise21I've considered the possibility that Solas may be lying by omission in some cases. Of the potential Evanuris that may have not been responsible for Mythal's death, Dirthamen is the best candidate. Us not hearing about June and Sylaise doesn't convince me they weren't evil. Were they not, Solas would be lying about the Evanuris essentially fracturing -- I find that hard to believe. It doesn't match with what we know about the world so far, and that seems like it would be *too* much obfuscation on Solas' part. Obviously we're not getting the whole picture, but I'm at least inclined to believe Solas' recounting of the Evanuris in generality, and when he describes the Evanuris the way he does, it doesn't exactly leave too much room for interpretation concerning their malevolence. Why should I trust Solas at all? He is the God of Deception, the closest thing to the devil in the elven mythology. He has done nothing but lie, either by omission or commission, the entire time we knew him. The only things that support his account are things left by him or his followers, so not exactly unbiased accounts.
|
|
inherit
12362
0
213
n7double07
219
November 2022
n7double07
|
Post by n7double07 on Nov 29, 2022 6:33:12 GMT
Hanako Ikezawa gervaise21 I've considered the possibility that Solas may be lying by omission in some cases. Of the potential Evanuris that may have not been responsible for Mythal's death, Dirthamen is the best candidate. Us not hearing about June and Sylaise doesn't convince me they weren't evil. Were they not, Solas would be lying about the Evanuris essentially fracturing -- I find that hard to believe. It doesn't match with what we know about the world so far, and that seems like it would be *too* much obfuscation on Solas' part. Obviously we're not getting the whole picture, but I'm at least inclined to believe Solas' recounting of the Evanuris in generality, and when he describes the Evanuris the way he does, it doesn't exactly leave too much room for interpretation concerning their malevolence. Why should I trust Solas at all? He is the God of Deception, the closest thing to the devil in the elven mythology. He has done nothing but lie, either by omission or commission, the entire time we knew him. The only things that support his account are things left by him or his followers, so not exactly unbiased accounts. A valid point from the perspective of a player character. At the meta level, this would be a strange thing for Bioware pull out of their bag: "Hey, we set up the Evanuris minus Mythal (and MAYBE Dirthamen) as villains in the last game and trailers for this game, but June and Sylaise in particular were actually good, too. Oh, and they're not locked in the Black City" Or are they? If they aren't, where are they? And if they are, why so if they're good? Why would Solas lie about having them as allies?
Seems like an oddly specific (first-person perspective) amendment to the story at this point
|
|
darthshadielavellan
N1
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Posts: 40 Likes: 40
inherit
11882
0
40
darthshadielavellan
40
Apr 13, 2021 11:42:27 GMT
April 2021
darthshadielavellan
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
|
Post by darthshadielavellan on Nov 29, 2022 6:41:31 GMT
Solas describes them as powerful mages, powerful mages connected to the Fade would make their subordinates view them as kings and gods. It also makes me wonder just how powerful they would be with the Veil removed. Well that's the other thing, isn't it. If Ghilan'nain is indeed the one behind the grey pools to create monsters, if she were to return, imagine how powerful she might be. Solas says that tearing down the Veil will release the Evanuris from their prison. He CLAIMS he has plans, but we have no idea what those plans actually are or if they will actually work. Chances are, like everything else he's tried, it will fail. If the Veil comes down and the Evanuris are released... Solas is going to be the least of our worries.
|
|
inherit
Scribbles
185
0
31,578
Hanako Ikezawa
22,991
August 2016
hanakoikezawa
|
Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Nov 29, 2022 8:26:53 GMT
Why should I trust Solas at all? He is the God of Deception, the closest thing to the devil in the elven mythology. He has done nothing but lie, either by omission or commission, the entire time we knew him. The only things that support his account are things left by him or his followers, so not exactly unbiased accounts. A valid point from the perspective of a player character. At the meta level, this would be a strange thing for Bioware pull out of their bag: "Hey, we set up the Evanuris minus Mythal (and MAYBE Dirthamen) as villains in the last game and trailers for this game, but June and Sylaise in particular were actually good, too. Oh, and they're not locked in the Black City" Or are they? If they aren't, where are they? And if they are, why so if they're good? Why would Solas lie about having them as allies?
Seems like an oddly specific (first-person perspective) amendment to the story at this point
In a way that would actually be smart. Have most people fall for Solas’s deceptions of the Evanuris being the bad guys when in reality it is Mythal and Fen’Harel who were the bad guys. I know they won’t, but it would be a neat twist. I don’t think the Evanuris are locked in the Black City. Otherwise they would have gotten out when the Magisters entered it. Overall, I just think there’s no way it’s going to be a black and white issue. Yet we know Solas tends to use actions of an individual to judge an entire group. To him maybe Sylaise and June and anyone else who didn’t “do enough” to save Mythal we’re seen as just as guilty as those who killed her so he gave them all the same punishment. This is the same guy who murdered his longtime ally for thinking maybe genociding the modern world isn’t a good thing to do.
|
|
inherit
∯ Oh Loredy...
455
0
31,186
gervaise21
13,101
August 2016
gervaise21
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights
|
Post by gervaise21 on Nov 29, 2022 8:58:51 GMT
Obviously we're not getting the whole picture, but I'm at least inclined to believe Solas' recounting of the Evanuris in generality, and when he describes the Evanuris the way he does, it doesn't exactly leave too much room for interpretation concerning their malevolence. Solas regarded them as essentially the enemy, so he is hardly likely to go into detail of which were more culpable than the others. It is entirely possible that by the end they were totally corrupt by the desire for power, particularly if red lyrium was floating around since we know that can accentuate bad traits in people. It is also likely that when someone was threatening their collective hold on power, they would naturally close ranks and likely put aside their differences in face of that threat. That does not necessarily mean they were all as bad as one another or that they all knew what the others were doing. Solas says that Mythal was the best of them and that she cared about her people. Was that possibly rose-tinted spectacles on his part? Clearly, whilst she reprimanded and dealt with individual Evanuris if they got too out of hand, she seemed happy to preserve the status quo. Whilst we know that she was murdered, the don't know exactly why. There are some theories that she actually backed Fen'Harel's rebellion in secret and when the others discovered this, that is when they killed her but they are only theories and our words to Solas, combined with his answer, suggest he only rebelled against their rule after her death. Why do you think Dirthamen is least likely to be implicated? If anything, I would think he was the one who helped engineer it. Mythal was acknowledged as having power and authority over the other gods, with the possible exception of Elgar'nan. Would it be any easier to catch her off guard than it would Solas without some sort of trickery? Who better to keep a conspiracy hidden until the last moment than the god of secrets? Also, it might be difficult to keep a conspiracy hidden from him, so if the other Evanuris were plotting something, he would know about it. Given what his priesthood did in his Temple, first high priest to preserve his secrets and then the others in retribution for his actions, it seems Dirthamen was not a good influence on them. Lastly, there is the connection between him and Falon'Din. I am prepared to believe Solas' words about the latter, since they seem confirmed by what we discover in the Vir Dirthara, that he was constantly stirring up trouble, plus the inscription in the Temple of Mythal makes him sound pretty sinister. He was likely the first necromancer and is clearly associated with death/the dead. However, if the elves were immortal, that means he could not rely on people dying a natural death to obtain his subjects, so hardly surprising that he was constantly urging violence. His followers also call him a "master scryer" and ask for his guidance "through shapeless worlds and airless skies". That is clearly referring to the Fade and the Dalish associate him with guiding those in Uthenera in ancient times, along with Dirthamen, where the elders would discover the "secrets of dreams". However, we also know that in ancient Tevinter the Dreamers could seek out their enemies through the Fade and kill them in their sleep, so maybe Falon'Din/Dirthamen operated as a sort of secret police, with their followers acting as their operatives. As I say with regard to Dirthamen, if another god wanted to keep something hidden from prying eyes, who better to go to than these two? So, I can fully imagine a conspiracy between Andruil, Ghilan'main, Falon'Din and Dirthamen but I think the main motivator was Elgar'nan. There is a mosaic that we can discover that is referred to as the Arch-demon. It is assumed that it shows this and was made by Tevinter artisans, but Gatsi says, in connection with one of the others, Freed are the Slaves, that it looks as though the Vints altered an earlier work. They were known to do this with elven artifacts, claiming them for their own. So, I wondered if the Arch-demon was in fact depicting the conspiracy against Mythal, shown as a dragon. In which case, there are 7 Evanuris shown but Gatsi interprets various lines of sight from 3 dragon heads. Two are turned away from lines that piece the dragon, so seem to be doing the damage, but the third head is looking directly at the one who appeared to miss but clearly the dragon knew was the instigator. "She was betrayed as I was betrayed" (by her husband). So, if it does depict her death, two (likely Andruil and Ghilan'nain or Falon'Din) were responsible for the fatal blow, Dirthamen tried to shield the conspirators from her knowledge but she knew who had actually ordered it. Incidentally, Elgar'nan would seem to have been ackowledged by all, including Mythal, as pre-eminent among the gods and was clearly someone you would not wish to cross, seeing as even the Dalish know him as the spirit of vengeance. So, if he decided that Mythal should go, would any of the others oppose him? Now knowing about the threat but not warning Mythal or trying to prevent it, still makes them guilty of her death, but their crime could be more one of cowardice or simple self-interest rather than actual malevolence towards her.
|
|