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Post by Noxluxe on Dec 28, 2023 3:59:30 GMT
Don't sow what you can't reap, buddy. If you can't separate people trashing your views from them trashing you for having them, then yeah, playing Devil's advocate and God's prosecutor on an internet forum probably isn't the best thing you could be doing with your time, or for your own mental health.
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Post by Kabraxal on Dec 28, 2023 5:38:23 GMT
Don't sow what you can't reap, buddy. If you can't separate people trashing your views from them trashing you for having them, then yeah, playing Devil's advocate and God's prosecutor on an internet forum probably isn't the best thing you could be doing with your time, or for your own mental health. Says the kid that has continually replied with passive aggressive insults aimed directly at my intelligence and mental stability all while claiming his enlightened views are far more objective… Your honour, the typical Bag3 zealot. I rest my case.
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Post by DragonKingReborn on Dec 28, 2023 5:53:59 GMT
Drop it, thanks. Both of you.
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Post by wickedcool on Dec 28, 2023 14:11:45 GMT
Dai lacks a huge things in RPGs that even Skyrim has
Interesting npcs
I can’t recall if there’s a single npc that you can go 2 for dialogue to make it feel like your part of the world (your party doesn’t count)
People that could have/should have The 2 bartenders -Cabot and flissa A shopkeeper Etc etc etc
Skyrim is an older game and yet I can have more interesting dialogue with the town drunk in riverwood than anyone in any major city in dai
If you don’t talk to lace during a cutscene you don’t see her until the next 1
Bg3 is a masterpiece and dao is the closest when it comes to those types of interactions. Da2 had some but it’s usually a cutscene
Dao 2009 with the battle for redcliffe. There were real people you had to save and care about. Dai you can save the people in haven in basically a timed run but BioWare couldn’t count on you doing that so they didn’t follow through.
Larian does care and so you argument that I can’t stand this is silly. There’s basically a haven/redcliffe type scenario early on. There are massive choices in just this area alone and they have covered for every type of scenario for every character of importance in this area (and this are alone has more than all of dai combined) If x character dies then this or this or this etc. it’s mind boggling how much detail went into this for just minor characters
Unlike dai not sure if anyone else has picked up on this but your companions actually care about each other or don’t
I don’t remember Carrie or sera or bull etc telling me hey I don’t like black wall after what you find out about him and maybe we should get rid of him or etc unless they were in the party together
There certainly was no hey hero I saw you talking to varric what did he want from say sera etc. you got some of that from Leiliani but only if you advanced romances etc
Dai has fast combat but the combat felt like peeling potatoes with a dull blade. Ok I have a sword that I built with 20 rare wyvern leathers etc but it takes 20 hits on easy (easy) to kill late game enemies. There is 0 joy. I would literally scum a boring desert to craft weapons just to cut the grind out and then make sure that I had 3-4 abilities that worked as the rest were total junk!
I’ve said it before I’m a loyal dragon age player. I will hopefully someday buy da4 but the bar has been set really high. They can’t roll out dai 2.0 and expect not to crash and burn
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Post by colfoley on Dec 29, 2023 1:38:29 GMT
Dai lacks a huge things in RPGs that even Skyrim has Interesting npcs I can’t recall if there’s a single npc that you can go 2 for dialogue to make it feel like your part of the world (your party doesn’t count) People that could have/should have The 2 bartenders -Cabot and flissa A shopkeeper Etc etc etc Skyrim is an older game and yet I can have more interesting dialogue with the town drunk in riverwood than anyone in any major city in dai If you don’t talk to lace during a cutscene you don’t see her until the next 1 Bg3 is a masterpiece and dao is the closest when it comes to those types of interactions. Da2 had some but it’s usually a cutscene Dao 2009 with the battle for redcliffe. There were real people you had to save and care about. Dai you can save the people in haven in basically a timed run but BioWare couldn’t count on you doing that so they didn’t follow through. Larian does care and so you argument that I can’t stand this is silly. There’s basically a haven/redcliffe type scenario early on. There are massive choices in just this area alone and they have covered for every type of scenario for every character of importance in this area (and this are alone has more than all of dai combined) If x character dies then this or this or this etc. it’s mind boggling how much detail went into this for just minor characters Unlike dai not sure if anyone else has picked up on this but your companions actually care about each other or don’t I don’t remember Carrie or sera or bull etc telling me hey I don’t like black wall after what you find out about him and maybe we should get rid of him or etc unless they were in the party together There certainly was no hey hero I saw you talking to varric what did he want from say sera etc. you got some of that from Leiliani but only if you advanced romances etc Dai has fast combat but the combat felt like peeling potatoes with a dull blade. Ok I have a sword that I built with 20 rare wyvern leathers etc but it takes 20 hits on easy (easy) to kill late game enemies. There is 0 joy. I would literally scum a boring desert to craft weapons just to cut the grind out and then make sure that I had 3-4 abilities that worked as the rest were total junk! I’ve said it before I’m a loyal dragon age player. I will hopefully someday buy da4 but the bar has been set really high. They can’t roll out dai 2.0 and expect not to crash and burn It seems to really be an interesting poisoning of the well when you restrict the terms of the debate to such an oddly specific way. Thing is though in this case pretty much all the NPCs in DAI were more interesting then even the companions in Skyrim... at least to me. Lord Woosley's owner pretty much had more depth then any of the base game companions that you ran into in Skyrim the only one that had any characterization was Seranna from the Dawnbreaker DLC. And pretty much same thing went for DAO like with Redcliffe Tegan is obvious on the higher scale but other then that...I guess you had Robin Sachs's character since he was voiced by Robin Sachs and then you have the sister/ brother or something combination there...and even then I barely remember their names . Inquisition meanwhile had Cabot, Thren, Adan, Flissa, and Harit. Same difference since i am struggling to remember his name to but I did also quite enjoy Thren's replacement as well. And last but not least Dagna. All of which quite fully fleshed out (relative to their roles) with interesting and memorable personalities who were more then just quest givers. And this is not even including other NPCs like Corypheus, Caelpernia, or Livius Erimond...or do they not count either because they are antagonists? And your companions also did chat and comment with one another on their opinions. Specifically when Cassandra's opinion on Blackwall changed after learning he was Thom Rainier. Same thing with Solas. Granted this was handled via the banter system which had its issues but the stuff is there for anyone who wants to look and is pretty much how Origins and 2 handled such opinions to. Combat. Yeah pretty much the exact opposite just Inquisition seemed to have a lot more control/ be more forgiving over your companions and what they could do. You weren't standing there watching your character and the Darkspawn they were shooting at 'miss' for shots on end which also tended to really drag out the time it took for each combat encounter. DAI was much faster and much smoother. As far as BG III is concerned you are right. From what I have seen the game does a great job with reactivity if nothing else. Though while this is important there is certainly a lot more to RPGs then just that.
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Post by fairdragon on Dec 29, 2023 8:41:52 GMT
Skyrim is an older game and yet I can have more interesting dialogue with the town drunk in riverwood than anyone in any major city in dai For me Mother Giselle, Cremisius "Krem" Aclassi and Dagna (to name some) are more than enough. I don't want to speak with every NPC. But Skyrim and Larian games aren't for me. So let's say we have different opinons. I played skyrim and stoped playing really fast. I play for Stories and Skyrim give you much, but the stories are as someone said only your imagination. Dragon age give you cool Stories some better than other and other more one road, but they are there. And my biggest frustration in Skyrim is that if i go were the game tell me to go, I die really fast. I am not the type for: look for the next side quest to get stronger. Unlike dai not sure if anyone else has picked up on this but your companions actually care about each other or don’t I don’t remember Carrie or sera or bull etc telling me hey I don’t like black wall after what you find out about him and maybe we should get rid of him or etc unless they were in the party together And your companions also did chat and comment with one another on their opinions. Specifically when Cassandra's opinion on Blackwall changed after learning he was Thom Rainier. Same thing with Solas. Granted this was handled via the banter system which had its issues but the stuff is there for anyone who wants to look and is pretty much how Origins and 2 handled such opinions to. And i would add to that: i don't like the forced atmosphere in BG3 with your companions. I know DAI doesn't do it in a good way like DAO but at least it don't feel like everyone shouldn't be here in the first place. Aside from that you can speak with your companion and they tell you their opinion on thinks that happend. Not so much as the banter System, but i like that a lot.
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Post by vonuber on Dec 29, 2023 11:14:20 GMT
I don't think it can be argued that the combat in DA:I is pretty weak, even by DA standards.
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Post by wickedcool on Dec 29, 2023 14:59:40 GMT
Hey it’s all about opinions and I’m happy your happy with dai
For me I want more
I don’t remember Cabot adding anything other than a one liner and I appreciate Skyrim/bg3 for having companions that talked. Yes Skyrim has lackluster dialogue but dai literally just has nameless enemies and nameless people that are just there Dagna has 2 lines of dialogue? One when you meet her and one with the viewing crystal. The rest of the time she’s just there . Same with every npc or they have less Out of the 3 it only excelled in graphics and jumping. It literally took 3 dlcs to push the story to a good conclusion. Without the dlc and a book tie in nobody would know who the dreadwolf even is.
You talked about Skyrim and leveling. You do realize that dai is 100x worse. You skip dialogue and skip areas you lose companions (bull will betray you). The game has huge boring areas that are only rewarding if you do the puzzle quests (dwarven desert ) You literally have to treasure chest/nug to get decent items-has to be the worst writing decision in RPGs gaming In my opinion one of the more interesting enemies is tied to a time travel choice that most people hate
Bg3 does none of that. There might be 10 turns where everybody has to go but if you use strategy (dai developers promised but didn’t deliver this) you can turn a boring combat into something fast and satisfying I don’t have to collect 3-4 warden pieces with black wall in my party in order for him to get approval that he will eventually get his story to move Literally I talk to my companions. I do deeds they like and talk to them the way they want(like reality) Complaint about Bg3. Companions to over sexualized. Dai is just as bad. If your not careful with bull you can end up in a relationship
Like u said I’m happy for you
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Post by witchcocktor on Dec 29, 2023 15:56:35 GMT
If your not careful with bull you can end up in a relationship You are a liar, since this is complete bullshit (pun intended). There is ZERO WAY you could end up accidentally in a relationship with Bull. To even get Iron Bull's first romantic cutscene you have had to pick several romantic dialogue options that are extremely clearly communicated to the player with a vivid red and pink heart icon in the dialogue choices that leaves zero room for doubt. And even then, if you manged to somehow accidentally still trigger the first romantic scene with him where he suggests you want to ride the Bull (out of your own damn foolishness I can only assume) then you can put an end to it immediately and Bull will understand. BG3 though is notorious for every character wanting to bang you if you just are kind to them, to the point they have had to patch some of them to be less horny. But even now, Karlach will come onto you if you just proceed with her personal quest, and same goes for Halsin (though there is a way to stop Halsin's horniness in act 3). Even Wyll will ask for a dance if you just exhaust his dialogue options. There are issues in DA:I but accidentally stumbling on titties or dicks is not one of them.
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Post by wickedcool on Dec 29, 2023 16:20:22 GMT
No I didn’t say those words but I’m pretty sure you can trigger bull very easily by killing a dragon with him. It is much easier to trigger this than Cassandra.
Cassandra romance is a lot like shadowhearts and there is an approval system. Same goes for Karlach . The problem with Cassandra is it just fizzles out after the one scene
Now laezel is triggered by strong deeds and agreeing with her but just like dai relationships are ended once you say no or if you choose someone else
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Post by witchcocktor on Dec 29, 2023 16:45:00 GMT
The tavern scene with you drinking with Bull has no effect on triggering Bull's romance outside of being able to garner approval from him. It's actually better to not trigger that scene with Bull before starting is romance because you'll get extra dialogue if you do it after you've started his romance.
All DA:I companions have a very similar route with their romance, some just get their pivotal romance scene a bit later.
BG3 romances aren't much different. You flirt with them throughout act 1, get the romance initiation scene in act 2 and then have one more after finishing their personal quest in act 3 after which they do not get any more dialogue. I'd even argue it's worse in BG3 because at least in DA:I, you finish their personal quests like 70% way through the game, and they still have cutscenes and new dialogue left after completing main story quests after that. BG3 is pretty bad in that once you are finished with their personal quest in act 3 they basically become mute, only offering a few lines whenever something happens. And most companions have absolutely nothing to do in act 2 if you're not romancing them.
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Post by wickedcool on Dec 29, 2023 16:57:08 GMT
But that’s not 100% true . You do realize a lot of the dai stuff was added in the 3rd dlc . Bg3 they are still fixing up the base game just like they did for dai . Those weddings etc were added much later
Plus once you get to a certain point in the base game you can’t trigger those events so that’s not accurate. I’m pretty sure once you trigger the final act you can’t go back to skyhold etc but it’s been a while
The enemy spawning system is also one of the worst and gives 0 satisfaction other than the dragons with Lilliana making a comment about your dragon killing
Skyrim-there is something . Kill a hag/bandit etc for a Dunmer farmer and there’s recognition. It’s a much older game than dai
Dai-it’s your companions and sometimes a quick celebration in haven that lasts seconds
Bg3-quests carry over to other events. It’s truly brilliant. People remember what you did and there are real consequences so you truly feel part of the world regardless if elf etc. there are consequences if you spare or even kill bad things
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Post by witchcocktor on Dec 29, 2023 17:07:06 GMT
What '' stuff ''? I've been talking about the base Inquisition experience the whole time. It's a much more structured experience in good and in bad compared to BG3. There's a steady flow of content from the companions (even romance-wise) which I personally appreciate.
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Post by wickedcool on Dec 29, 2023 17:29:22 GMT
The stuff such as weddings I thought were added in the final dlc. Your choice for head of the church etc don’t play out until that dlc . You Finish the base game with cass as your head of church and that’s it . She’s gone until the final dlc
I just checked and you literally have to have trespasser to get resolution
Not sure if you have been keeping up but Bg3 just added many new things in act 3 and have been listening to complaints/suggestions
Dai was always no . The attitude from Larian has also been far superior to the attitude from BioWare
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Post by witchcocktor on Dec 29, 2023 17:54:55 GMT
How is that even remotely comparable? There's a good reason why the Divine that is chosen is not around, and you can fully enjoy the rest of the DLC content with Cassandra/Vivienne as long as you do them before the final base game quest. Meanwhile most of the companions are completely irrelevant in Act 2 of BG3 despite never leaving to do anything on their own.
It's great that BG3 is doing a lot of patches to fix their game, but you can definitely make the argument that all of those things added to the game should've been there from the start. And I'm not particularly in agreement that the things they've added post-release has done much to really fix my grievances of Act 3 and the ending specifically. The post-ending party was pretty laughable to me, it didn't offer much resolution.
I'm not trying to trash BG3 because overall as a video game, I would say it's better than Inquisition, but I prefer Inquisition SO MUCH MORE to BG3, because the things that I love in Inquisition are so much bigger and more important to me than the positives of BG3.
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Post by wickedcool on Dec 29, 2023 18:33:04 GMT
What are those things? Hey I played dai until I just couldn’t. Finished many a time with no mods and liked it but after a while I booted it up and was like no more and dao/da2 sane but with modern tech their warts really show
Let’s go back in dai base game. Weren’t things added later that should have been there initially. Wasn’t the golden bug added as a freebie (seriously if it hadn’t been for that I wouldn’t have played 1/2 of what I did). Weren’t there other things added after launch (the treasure chest in skyhold was a big thing?)
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Post by witchcocktor on Dec 29, 2023 18:41:40 GMT
Yeah, DA:I added things too after the game release (that should've been in the game to begin with. I'd also argue Trespasser should've been in the game from the start as well). And there are still lots of other things I feel they should've added and fixed as well, but not every company is blessed with the ability to do such things and have it be financially beneficial.
I'm not saying it's bad for Larian to have added content and patched the game after the initial release, but I am saying that none of the added content has really added much replayability or enjoyability for me. And I'll still gladly replay DA:I early, warts and all. BG3 I'll gladly leave to gather dust until a full expansion/DLC.
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Post by roselavellan on Dec 30, 2023 4:11:07 GMT
I'm not trying to trash BG3 because overall as a video game, I would say it's better than Inquisition, but I prefer Inquisition SO MUCH MORE to BG3, because the things that I love in Inquisition are so much bigger and more important to me than the positives of BG3. I'm not sure BG3 is better than Inquisition tbh. There are some elements that are better, like the absence of fetch quests, but yes, I'm with you in that the elements I find important were far superior in the DA series.
For me, I find that companions were far better written in Dragon Age (and even Mass Effect) than in BG3. I was trying to do a second playthrough of BG3 and found myself feeling really bored with the companions now that I'd finished their personal quests in the first run. Sure I can try different outcomes, but it still doesn't make them interesting characters.
It's made me realise that in BG3, the companions' personal quests form basically the totality of their characters, which is really limiting. I feel like all I'm doing with BG3 companions is helping them through their personal crises. In both DA and ME, by contrast, we are able to discuss our companions' personal, cultural, family and professional histories. For example, we can talk to Cassandra about Nevarra, her family, as well as the Seekers. A lot of Dorian's story is about his personal identity, but he will also talk to us at length, and banter with others, about Tevinter and magic.
I think it says a lot that if I'm going to be able to play through a subsequent run of BG3, I'm going to have to skip recruiting a few companions and just use hirelings for their roles.
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Post by colfoley on Dec 30, 2023 7:29:34 GMT
I'm not trying to trash BG3 because overall as a video game, I would say it's better than Inquisition, but I prefer Inquisition SO MUCH MORE to BG3, because the things that I love in Inquisition are so much bigger and more important to me than the positives of BG3. I'm not sure BG3 is better than Inquisition tbh. There are some elements that are better, like the absence of fetch quests, but yes, I'm with you in that the elements I find important were far superior in the DA series.
For me, I find that companions were far better written in Dragon Age (and even Mass Effect) than in BG3. I was trying to do a second playthrough of BG3 and found myself feeling really bored with the companions now that I'd finished their personal quests in the first run. Sure I can try different outcomes, but it still doesn't make them interesting characters.
It's made me realise that in BG3, the companions' personal quests form basically the totality of their characters, which is really limiting. I feel like all I'm doing with BG3 companions is helping them through their personal crises. In both DA and ME, by contrast, we are able to discuss our companions' personal, cultural, family and professional histories. For example, we can talk to Cassandra about Nevarra, her family, as well as the Seekers. A lot of Dorian's story is about his personal identity, but he will also talk to us at length, and banter with others, about Tevinter and magic.
I think it says a lot that if I'm going to be able to play through a subsequent run of BG3, I'm going to have to skip recruiting a few companions and just use hirelings for their roles.
That does remind me of the opinion I was half wondering in watching the Lets Plays in the game that the companions of BG III almost felt like BioWare during ME 2...since a good deal of ME 2s characterization was tied up within the loyalty missions and not that much else beyond there.
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Post by river82 on Dec 30, 2023 10:02:15 GMT
I'm not sure BG3 is better than Inquisition tbh. There are some elements that are better, like the absence of fetch quests, but yes, I'm with you in that the elements I find important were far superior in the DA series.
For me, I find that companions were far better written in Dragon Age (and even Mass Effect) than in BG3. I was trying to do a second playthrough of BG3 and found myself feeling really bored with the companions now that I'd finished their personal quests in the first run. Sure I can try different outcomes, but it still doesn't make them interesting characters.
It's made me realise that in BG3, the companions' personal quests form basically the totality of their characters, which is really limiting. I feel like all I'm doing with BG3 companions is helping them through their personal crises. In both DA and ME, by contrast, we are able to discuss our companions' personal, cultural, family and professional histories. For example, we can talk to Cassandra about Nevarra, her family, as well as the Seekers. A lot of Dorian's story is about his personal identity, but he will also talk to us at length, and banter with others, about Tevinter and magic.
I think it says a lot that if I'm going to be able to play through a subsequent run of BG3, I'm going to have to skip recruiting a few companions and just use hirelings for their roles.
That does remind me of the opinion I was half wondering in watching the Lets Plays in the game that the companions of BG III almost felt like BioWare during ME 2...since a good deal of ME 2s characterization was tied up within the loyalty missions and not that much else beyond there. Should be noted that ME2 was the most popular Mass Effect, and the companions were a strong reason for that.
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Post by roselavellan on Dec 30, 2023 10:17:50 GMT
That does remind me of the opinion I was half wondering in watching the Lets Plays in the game that the companions of BG III almost felt like BioWare during ME 2...since a good deal of ME 2s characterization was tied up within the loyalty missions and not that much else beyond there. Coincidentally, I've just finished a playthrough of ME2 (on to ME3 now!), so it's still fresh in my mind. IMO Mass Effect was slightly more economical with their companion dialogue, yet still managed to convey more about the characters. Perhaps the goal was different, in that the story in ME was very much focused on the Reaper problem and saving the galaxy, and so we are presented with a profile of the character as a top professional of their field, in addition to what they are in their personal lives.
With BG3 otoh, no one seems to care much if at all about the world-ending Big Bad. (Which in itself is so odd.) Larian seemed to want so much to recreate the feel of a bunch of college students sitting down for a session of D&D that you get all the personal drama of said group, and none of the saving-the-world professionalism that you get in DA and ME. I often find myself wondering about Shadowheart's and Astarion's skills and combat training. Like, why did Astarion become a rogue? Did he have to steal for Cazador? SH is a cleric, right? So, she heals people, I guess? I've played the game through and still don't have a clue about why she's supposed to be so good at what she does.
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Post by river82 on Dec 30, 2023 10:23:47 GMT
That does remind me of the opinion I was half wondering in watching the Lets Plays in the game that the companions of BG III almost felt like BioWare during ME 2...since a good deal of ME 2s characterization was tied up within the loyalty missions and not that much else beyond there. Coincidentally, I've just finished a playthrough of ME2 (on to ME3 now!), so it's still fresh in my mind. IMO Mass Effect was slightly more economical with their companion dialogue, yet still managed to convey more about the characters. Perhaps the goal was different, in that the story in ME was very much focused on the Reaper problem and saving the galaxy, and so we are presented with a profile of the character as a top professional of their field, in addition to what they are in their personal lives. It was very much Bioware at near the top of their game imo, character writing wise. My personal opinion was that the lack of plot in ME2 caused the problems in ME3, because ME2's plot spent most of the game recruiting people. It was the recruitment ark xD But the characters were just amazing
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Post by colfoley on Dec 30, 2023 10:40:29 GMT
That does remind me of the opinion I was half wondering in watching the Lets Plays in the game that the companions of BG III almost felt like BioWare during ME 2...since a good deal of ME 2s characterization was tied up within the loyalty missions and not that much else beyond there. Should be noted that ME2 was the most popular Mass Effect, and the companions were a strong reason for that. Oh I certainly agree about ME 2 specifically and BioWare in general. Since BioWare's bread and butter tends to be character interactions my favorite BioWare games tend to line up with my favorite BioWare casts, more or less one to one. And since ME 2 is my second favorite BioWare game... But in that regard to it was a little dissapointing just how much of their character development was tied into one mission. One of those backhanded complaints sort of things because it is an effective system and given that most of the companions in ME 2 were so interesting I guess the issue was that it was dissapointing that you couldn't learn more and get more development and time with them...especially in comparison to later BioWare games, or DA 2 which had more quests to do then just the one.
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Post by river82 on Dec 30, 2023 10:47:25 GMT
Should be noted that ME2 was the most popular Mass Effect, and the companions were a strong reason for that. Oh I certainly agree about ME 2 specifically and BioWare in general. Since BioWare's bread and butter tends to be character interactions my favorite BioWare games tend to line up with my favorite BioWare casts, more or less one to one. And since ME 2 is my second favorite BioWare game... But in that regard to it was a little dissapointing just how much of their character development was tied into one mission. One of those backhanded complaints sort of things because it is an effective system and given that most of the companions in ME 2 were so interesting I guess the issue was that it was dissapointing that you couldn't learn more and get more development and time with them...especially in comparison to later BioWare games, or DA 2 which had more quests to do then just the one. I wonder if it was a resource thing also. And by "resource" I mean how many words were considered okay to put in a game back then compared with gameplay. Mass Effect 2 and 3 both had 450000 words, probably a lot for a game at the time, a game aimed at more shooter action type audiences. It was probably Bioware chasing the shooter audience in ME that may have restricted their word count maybe. In comparison, both Inquisition and BG3 had well over a million words I think and even Origins had over 700k
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Post by roselavellan on Dec 31, 2023 5:01:23 GMT
It was very much Bioware at near the top of their game imo, character writing wise. My personal opinion was that the lack of plot in ME2 caused the problems in ME3, because ME2's plot spent most of the game recruiting people. It was the recruitment ark xD But the characters were just amazing I loved the team in ME2. ME2 really ended on a high note, I almost thought out loud, "I'm so proud of you guys" after the suicide mission. My only problem with ME3 right now is that the Normandy feels a little dark and lonely after ME2, lol. I miss having all my squadmates around. I miss Miranda in particular, she always felt like FemShep's bestie.
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