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Post by biggydx on Aug 24, 2023 13:52:34 GMT
It's saddening to see... but at some point you're going to need new writers regardless of layoffs or retirement. I hate that they're leaving, but if there's junior writers there who want to stretch their legs, they're going to need experience at some point. People come and go in this industry. Everyone was ecstatic when Bioware hired Mary DeMarle as lead narrator for ME, so it's not like people who are accomplished writers can't be found out in the market.
Im not apologizing for the layoffs. I just think people here need to also stop believing any new writer is going to suck, and that there's absolutely NO ONE who can tell worthwhile stories for these franchises.
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Post by FiendishlyInventive on Aug 24, 2023 14:04:39 GMT
The Master Chief Collection's reputation improved over time, it's still receiving patches, you clearly have no idea what you are talking about.
You clearly also have no idea how often that "horde mode" still gets talked about and requested either.
That does not even touch on all the things that remain broken in the Mass Effect Legendary Edition.
"How to do a remaster" yeah, my eye.
If you have any more questions go back to the first post I made in this conversation and actually read it this time.
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Post by Croatsky on Aug 24, 2023 14:17:03 GMT
I can not take anyone seriously who doesn't think MELE was a success and hasn't improved BioWare's reputation. You're completely absurd and I'm better off ignoring you from now on.
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Post by FiendishlyInventive on Aug 24, 2023 14:29:41 GMT
I didn't say it wasn't a success though. Nor that it did not improve their reputation.
Again, reading comprehension lacking. The purest of tilting at windmills.
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Post by azarhal on Aug 24, 2023 14:37:40 GMT
This is a childish response and also wrong. People responsible for mismanagement has left BioWare years ago.
EA also gives their studio great amount of autonomy, BioWare especially so. Sorry time machine doesn't exist.
Also it was the Old Guard BioWare leadership that screwed it up, but clearly bunch of people here still refuse to believe that and only want to scapegoat EA suits and new gen heads.
The people getting fired—writers, technical directors, web developers, narrative programmers, etc.—are not Bioware's "leadership." Writers, programmers and devs who aren't department leads aren't the ones who decides how things are done. They can give suggestions but looking at things, they were probably ignored most of the time. It's not a writer who decided to hide staff on the SWTOR team while they actually worked on other games to siphon SWTOR budget to other games so EA didn't realize those other games were busting their budget. It was someone high into BioWare power structure. EA probably realized something was wrong when SWTOR 10th anniversary with lots of stuff planned over the year didn't really happen despite the staff and budget booked for it. Hence, putting an EA guy as general manager of the studio and then moving SWTOR to Broadsword, which caused BioWare Edmonton budgeting to fall apart which lead to cutting heads (among the most expensive since it's purely finances).
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Post by Croatsky on Aug 24, 2023 14:45:21 GMT
The people getting fired—writers, technical directors, web developers, narrative programmers, etc.—are not Bioware's "leadership." Writers, programmers and devs who aren't department leads aren't the ones who decides how things are done. They can give suggestions but looking at things, they were probably ignored most of the time. It's not a writer who decided to hide staff on the SWTOR team while they actually worked on other games to siphon SWTOR budget to other games so EA didn't realize those other games were busting their budget. It was someone high into BioWare power structure. EA probably realized something was wrong when SWTOR 10th anniversary with lots of stuff planned over the year didn't really happen despite the staff and budget booked for it. Hence, putting an EA guy as general manager of the studio and then moving SWTOR to Broadsword, which caused BioWare Edmonton budgeting to fall apart which lead to cutting heads (among the most expensive since it's purely finances). That I was not aware off.
So BioWare was not suppose to take resources out of SWTOR for other projects?
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Post by ArcadiaGrey on Aug 24, 2023 14:49:57 GMT
Oh, but you know, it's simply assumed that they "are not be able to properly contribute" so there's that. Whole lotta assumptions flying around, which is why I am disengaging from the conversation after this. There needs to be some level of human empathy involved and I'm not seeing that here from some. No, you are just being deeply bad faith at interpreting my comments. Jesus Christ you're insufferable. Thank you for reminding me, in the space of 3 pages, of why I left the forum.
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Post by DragonRacer on Aug 24, 2023 14:53:07 GMT
No, you are just being deeply bad faith at interpreting my comments. Jesus Christ you're insufferable. Thank you for reminding me, in the space of 3 pages, of why I left the forum.
Yeah, I’m quickly being reminded why I largely don’t participate here anymore and just assist with technical maintenance when I can.
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Post by githcheater on Aug 24, 2023 14:55:15 GMT
Dreadwolf is going to suffer the same fate as Andromeda, isn't it?
And it will be the fault of EA bean-counters and suits, again.
Thinking back though, Ironically, I feel that EA should've interfered sooner with Bioware especially with Anthem. They've surprisingly treated Bioware with kids' gloves over the years (I know microtransactions and all that, but it was hardly the worst they've treated a studio) but when Bioware management couldn't decide on a direction, it really lead to crunching and burnout. Sometimes you really need to kick upper management and force them to produce a game that you've invested a lot of money in. "One day in the spring of 2017, Söderlund flew to Edmonton and made his way to BioWare’s offices, entourage in tow." kotaku.com/how-biowares-anthem-went-wrong-1833731964Kid gloves? EA is notorious for changing its mind and rebooting a project, as the three reboots of DA4 illustrates. The domineering presence of Patrick Soderlund forced his darling razor-bladed Frostbite, and his intimidating "parade of suits" at Edmonton for the "flying demo charade" certainly complicated matters and lead to an unbaked game release one year after the announcement at E3 when Anthem was in the early stages of preproduction.
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Post by githcheater on Aug 24, 2023 14:59:38 GMT
Wow. Bloody hell. I've seen my share of outright ridiculous corpo speak but this one may just take the cake. How a smaller team is more creative and productive is just beyond me. I guess it takes a special kind of person to write that level of garbage with a straight face. And it's sad that they fired Mary Kirby and who knows who else. So many years of great contributions and this is what she gets. But who knows, maybe their new design direction doesn't need as much writing. "We are confident that we’ll have the time needed to ensure Dreadwolf reaches its full potential." Dude. Just say "delay". Two syllables. Ain't that hard. Now specifics and context will vary from case to case and the long term effects of this case are probably not going to see the consequences of this particular decision for a long time to come. But the basics of the logic is still rather sound. Teams can still be too large and unwieldy. Too bloated. Too many indians and not enough chiefs as well as the vice versa. So large where effective decision making is made a lot more complicated and thus things get harder to do, harder to communicate these decisions through an entire team and then get feedback. Hell now that I'm thinking about it I think Mark made a video which at least touched on this subject. So a larger team can be just as much of a problem for these companies as having a small team, and corporate speak or no, a smaller team can be more responsive, reactive, and creative, as a larger one. This is the worst bit for me. To lay off so many is horrible, but to cut Mary Kirby and others from the old guard is, quite frankly, disturbing in regards to the future of the company. BioWare is gone. Also the start of that press release is so corporate speak it makes me teeth hurt to read it 😬 I've never really thought that this overly melodramatic argument is especially effective or helpful to any debate. BioWare still exists and they will continue to do so for the forseable future. Indeed since the 'corporate speak' has reaffirmed their commitment to both Dragon Age and Mass Effect moving forward then this still means they have years still. As for the team there have been several people which have been there for years and reprsent the 'old guard'. Fewer and fewer, sure, but BioWare still has people in key leadership positions which have been with the company as long as Mary Kirby. Leadership which will continue to ensure some continuity as they train the next generation, hopefully, of BioWare devs and continue to ensure the companies standars remain. Which while it does suck for the specific people involved we were going to lose Mary Kirby eventually. People retire and people move on from companies all the time or are laid off. Mary Kirby isn't BioWare, BioWare is BioWare and given how much I enjoyed Andromeda and even Anthem having some BioWare staples in it I'm not that concerned by the loss of any one dev. At least not yet. Though a lot will depend on how much these people will be able to pass onto the next generation. Somone might have a future as a corporate spokesperson.
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Post by wright1978 on Aug 24, 2023 15:06:20 GMT
It's saddening to see... but at some point you're going to need new writers regardless of layoffs or retirement. I hate that they're leaving, but if there's junior writers there who want to stretch their legs, they're going to need experience at some point. People come and go in this industry. Everyone was ecstatic when Bioware hired Mary DeMarle as lead narrator for ME, so it's not like people who are accomplished writers can't be found out in the market. Im not apologizing for the layoffs. I just think people here need to also stop believing any new writer is going to suck, and that there's absolutely NO ONE who can tell worthwhile stories for these franchises.I'd argue a culture(that appears to devalue writing) by sacking experienced talented writers who know the setting isn't likely to be conducive to attracting and retaining good writing talent. Also like any other aspect of game development (sure a junior person with talent can develop a technical skill) but that'll take time and there mistakes along the way.
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Post by General Mahad on Aug 24, 2023 15:08:30 GMT
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Post by FiendishlyInventive on Aug 24, 2023 15:14:12 GMT
Jesus Christ you're insufferable. Thank you for reminding me, in the space of 3 pages, of why I left the forum.
Yeah, I’m quickly being reminded why I largely don’t participate here anymore and just assist with technical maintenance when I can. I think I understand, not fun when someone accuses you of saying something you categorically did not say, so you do not even get to discuss what you actually said.
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Post by azarhal on Aug 24, 2023 15:36:43 GMT
Writers, programmers and devs who aren't department leads aren't the ones who decides how things are done. They can give suggestions but looking at things, they were probably ignored most of the time. It's not a writer who decided to hide staff on the SWTOR team while they actually worked on other games to siphon SWTOR budget to other games so EA didn't realize those other games were busting their budget. It was someone high into BioWare power structure. EA probably realized something was wrong when SWTOR 10th anniversary with lots of stuff planned over the year didn't really happen despite the staff and budget booked for it. Hence, putting an EA guy as general manager of the studio and then moving SWTOR to Broadsword, which caused BioWare Edmonton budgeting to fall apart which lead to cutting heads (among the most expensive since it's purely finances). That I was not aware off.
So BioWare was not suppose to take resources out of SWTOR for other projects?
It's not exactly a "not supposed to take" as much as if those devs were moved to another project they should have been budgeted to that other project instead staying on SWTOR budget bucket. The end goal was probably to not lay off some people on those other projects, but it might have hid some development problems from everyone. Since going over budget usually means something is wrong with the development (scope too big, development issues, etc).
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Post by biggydx on Aug 24, 2023 15:47:07 GMT
It's saddening to see... but at some point you're going to need new writers regardless of layoffs or retirement. I hate that they're leaving, but if there's junior writers there who want to stretch their legs, they're going to need experience at some point. People come and go in this industry. Everyone was ecstatic when Bioware hired Mary DeMarle as lead narrator for ME, so it's not like people who are accomplished writers can't be found out in the market. Im not apologizing for the layoffs. I just think people here need to also stop believing any new writer is going to suck, and that there's absolutely NO ONE who can tell worthwhile stories for these franchises.I'd argue a culture(that appears to devalue writing) by sacking experienced talented writers who know the setting isn't likely to be conducive to attracting and retaining good writing talent. Also like any other aspect of game development (sure a junior person with talent can develop a technical skill) but that'll take time and there mistakes along the way. Mistakes can come with any writer, junior or otherwise. And let's not pretend that these same writers didn't also put out some fairly mediocre side quests in Inquisition either. I can also attest that theyve put out some of my favorite characters in the franchise (or gaming). Senior writers aren't infallible just because of how long they've been established with a franchise. I can hate how EA/BioWare have treated these individuals, but also recognize that writers were going to change hands at some point. Let's just think realistically about this. Once DA:D is done and released, that means were likely going to be waiting 4-6 years for the next ME game to launch. When it's Dragon Ages turn again, we could be up to 12 years removed from Dreadwolfs initial launch. You're bound to have some of the senior writers departing, but the work on the games story doesnt falter just because. David Gaider filled in after Mike Laidlaw. Patrick Weekes stepped in after Gaider. Someone else will likely need to step in for these other senior writers as well. My contention isn't with how this firing went down. I'm with you that this definitely fucks over the writing team. I just disagree with others here that everything with this franchises story hinges squarely on these writers.
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Post by Kappa Neko on Aug 24, 2023 16:04:04 GMT
Final nail in the coffin of the BioWare I used to love. If Andromeda is any indication of the kind of writing that new fresh faces produce, I want nothing to do with it. Thankfully studios like Larian are making well written party based RPGs now. No, their style isn't quite like BioWare and I'll always miss BioWare from 10-15 years ago. No other dev does party banter and friendships like BioWare. But good enough for me. BG3 is a darn good DA substitute. I've enjoyed so many narratives since Trespasser, their last good content. BioWare at this point is obsolete. I have zero faith in Dreadwolf or the next Mass Effect for that matter. Coworker linked this today and we both at first thought BioWare finally got closed down (and we were kinda disappointed it wasn't the case tbh).
Sucks for the people who got laid off but I'm sure their talent will be put to better use elsewhere. ANY other studio seems a better idea than being part of zombie BioWare to me. It's just sad at this point. Has been a painful slow death for almost a decade. I wish all the former BioWare devs would found a new studio and do AA narrative focused RPGs like BioWare used to before the open wold craze ruined their dev cycles and killed the relevance of their franchises. I would throw money so fast at that new studio. 40h cinematic corridor shooter/fantasy RPG experience with a ton of replay value again, please.
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Post by Gwydden on Aug 24, 2023 16:14:46 GMT
I wish all the former BioWare devs would found a new studio and do AA narrative focused RPGs like BioWare used to before the open wold craze ruined their dev cycles and killed the relevance of their franchises. I would throw money so fast at that new studio. 40h cinematic corridor shooter/fantasy RPG experience with a ton of replay value again, please. Nothing quite like that, but Bioware vets have had a hand in founding Archetype Entertainment, Humanoid Studios, and Thought Pennies. Worth keeping an eye on them, methinks. EDIT: I had forgotten that Mike Laidlaw's rōnin days ended. He's also founded his own studio, Yellow Brick Games.
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FiendishlyInventive
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Post by FiendishlyInventive on Aug 24, 2023 16:48:13 GMT
Just by law of averages one will turn out good.
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Post by General Mahad on Aug 24, 2023 17:31:42 GMT
Just by law of averages one will turn out good. You can argue that ME:LE is the one that turned out good.
I don't have any faith in Dreadwolf and Mass Effect is a good four years away; who knows if BioWare will even exist by then?
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Post by FiendishlyInventive on Aug 24, 2023 18:02:36 GMT
I am referring to the post above mine, not Bioware, and certainly not including a port with rather light improvements and some notable issues.
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Post by cuthbertbeckett on Aug 24, 2023 18:16:23 GMT
I am referring to the post above mine, not Bioware, and certainly not including a port with rather light improvements and some notable issues. ME 1 Legendary Edition is an awesome remaster but ME 2 and ME 3 not so much because they won´t improve that much.
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Post by FiendishlyInventive on Aug 24, 2023 18:25:14 GMT
All three also are missing stuff, whether that be unlocking Stasis in LOTSB ME2, or melee combos entirely in ME3.
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Post by AngryFrozenWater on Aug 24, 2023 18:29:49 GMT
Jesus Christ you're insufferable. Thank you for reminding me, in the space of 3 pages, of why I left the forum. Yeah, I’m quickly being reminded why I largely don’t participate here anymore and just assist with technical maintenance when I can. I understand your POV. But please don't be like me and drop off from discussions that matter. Maybe it is time I'll mingle in the crowd again.
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Post by cuthbertbeckett on Aug 24, 2023 18:31:36 GMT
All three also are missing stuff, whether that be unlocking Stasis in LOTSB ME2, or melee combos entirely in ME3. I get ME 2 and ME 3 but what is missing from ME 1? Don´t tell me you miss the Pinnacle Station DLC.
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Solas
N5
blep mlem mlem
ratlobster banger
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition, Dragon Age The Veilguard
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition, Dragon Age The Veilguard
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Post by Solas on Aug 24, 2023 18:46:36 GMT
askagamedev.tumblr.com/post/726550853176147968/a-lot-of-people-are-probably-asking-you-this-but another cross-post: I wouldn't zero in on the writers alone (they're familiar names, have done great work and writers are undervalued in creative fields for sure tho. and of course the writing is a big part of BioWare games). from what I can see we have two confirmed layoffs of writers thus far. We've also lost a foundation technical director, an associate level designer, a software engineer, an illustrator, a web producer, a gameplay director, a world animator, a ui/ux expert, a producer&dev manager and a gameplay designer, among others not yet named or not known to us. that's a broad and varied range of job roles and they're all important. it seems like the majority of the departments in the company got hit with layoffs. all of those will have an impact as, like some of the devs are stressing on socials, games are made by many people. and its hard for all of them who got laid off no doubt.
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