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Post by river82 on Aug 25, 2023 0:18:54 GMT
Journos copy other journos all the time. If you skimmed the Resetera thread I linked you would have seen someone say it originated from Venture Beat who scoured linkedin, which isn't the most reliable of sources but it's the figure everyone throws out at the moment. And TO BE FAIR, wasn't 2005 about when they were working on Dragon Age Origins, the game that pretty much bankrupted them before EA came in and saved them? Maybe they overemployed. It's worrying though. Okay look, the 200-240 figure doesn't worry me specifically. The fact is it doesn't matter which number, 200-250 employees is VERY LOW to be making AAA games. If they have that few employees going forward I would imagine open world games would be a struggle. Maybe they will focus on more linear, corridor experiences like ME2 or DA2? But Bethesda has 400, Larian needed 400, and I'm pretty certain everyone is astonished at Bethesda for doing what they do with only 400. Big open world RPGs are expensive. Are they doing open world after this? I can't see how they could. Lots of questions. The exact number of employees is not the top of everyone's worries (and Jeff probably isn't going to burn his insider access by asking pointless questions. He'll just grab what someone else reports probably). Journos copying other journos also leads to spreading misinformation, even unintentionally and without malice over trivial facts.
Hence I feel skeptical for 250 number.
Also I did some digging and learned BioWare Austin was formed in 2005 and SWTOR development began in March 2006, so this explains how BioWare managed to grow so fast so quickly. It was pre-2008 crash era of overexpansion within tech sector, so oups! BioWare was lucky EA acquired them.
Also while yes Larian Studio and Bethesda have 400 employees each, do remember that BioWare Edmonton develops two AAA games at once, albeit less so post-Anthem but that's due to grave mismanagement.
Anyway, this digging just left me unsatisfactory.
Oh, Bioware started developing the (at the time) most expensive game ever made in 2006? That was super ambitious of them O.O
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Post by Croatsky on Aug 25, 2023 0:28:46 GMT
Oh, Bioware started developing the (at the time) most expensive game ever made in 2006? That was super ambitious of them O.O BioWare was always extremely ambitious.
They wanted to be among the first with whole pre-order DLC business with Mass Effect, but due to troubled development they had to put it off until ME2.
Hell ME3 Co-Op well all know and love? It was basically blueprint for predatory microtransactions and excessive grinding for Western gaming industry.
They were also always shady too. Hell big reason why EA acquired BioWare was because BW heads tricked EA into thinking they are developing KotOR 2. EA was not amused when they discovered they were had, which is what lead to Dragon Age 2 development being rushed.
Fans really don't know enough about dark side of the old BioWare.
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Post by 10k on Aug 25, 2023 0:33:02 GMT
This is just more writing on the wall. Bringing back Mark Darrah as a consultant role; no doubt so he can make miracles happen like he did with Anthem. And get the game out of development hell. Now booting experienced writers and 50 more devs. There is something going on with this new DA, and it's not good. Most likely EA is preparing for failure, and the inevitable shut down of BW.
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Post by Guardian on Aug 25, 2023 0:34:20 GMT
This sucks so bad. Love her work and that they lay of the senior? writer of Dreadwolf is no a good sign. Man this sucks. Them axing Mary Kirby is pretty much a coffin nail for me. All I can really say is that this does not bode well for the future of the project and that I hope Mary Kirby is snapped up by another studio immediately to work on something I want to play. Can't imagine a Dragon Age project without her, but I guess we'll have to. So fans have overfocused on writers losing their jobs, afterall. Also I'm surprised nobody posted the Jeff Grubb report yet, as he states ME team devs have been moved to fill in lost DA team gaps.Again....a lot of this is just circumstantial, but to get rid of people that know what makes Dragon Age " Dragon Age" is like getting an IP, then tossing out everyone that made it successful for the last 25-30+ years for whatever reason. I know some have (and will still) shout about "younger, newer voices", but this is not the time to bring them in. Not in a ride-or-die game like Dreadwolf; you put them on a new IP where they can show what they're capable of and with a fresh start. Mike Gamble leaving is a blessing still (I'll admit, even him leaving still felt odd), but the fact that they're getting rid of people that know what this franchise should be is just telling to me. I have no faith in Dragon Age: Dreadwolf anymore; this will be the final act for Bioware I'm afraid. And if it's not somehow, I doubt we're going to get another Dragon Age game after this, unless this somehow pulls a phoenix rising from the ashes and takes the gaming landscape by storm. If Inquisition (and with Andromeda Devs filling in) was anything to go by, this franchise is going to be shelved next. I'm really thankful at this point that Larian has Baldur's Gate III. To be fair, I felt Andromeda was better than Inquisition...so there's some razor-thin hope, but again - I highly doubt it after all this.
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Post by FiendishlyInventive on Aug 25, 2023 0:54:16 GMT
This is just more writing on the wall. Bringing back Mark Darrah as a consultant role; no doubt so he can make miracles happen like he did with Anthem. And get the game out of development hell. Now booting experienced writers and 50 more devs. There is something going on with this new DA, and it's not good. Most likely EA is preparing for failure, and the inevitable shut down of BW. Completely agree.
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Post by Heimdall on Aug 25, 2023 1:17:28 GMT
I’ll just say this.
We don’t know the current state of Dreadwolf. How much of an impact these losses have is heavily dependent on that. That’s the main reason I’m not comfortably jumping to any conclusions about these firings impacting the game’s timetable or quality. All we know is that the main story was playable from beginning to end when the alpha milestone was hit last year. It may be these people are being let go precisely because the development has reached a stage where they aren’t strictly needed. I doubt they’ll be changing the writing much at this stage, for example.
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Post by githcheater on Aug 25, 2023 1:21:30 GMT
Again....a lot of this is just circumstantial, but to get rid of people that know what makes Dragon Age " Dragon Age" is like getting an IP, then tossing out everyone that made it successful for the last 25-30+ years for whatever reason. I know some have (and will still) shout about "younger, newer voices", but this is not the time to bring them in. It's like riding in a poorly tested submersible to attempt to visit the Titanic at the bottom of the sea ...
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Post by colfoley on Aug 25, 2023 1:29:35 GMT
This sucks so bad. Love her work and that they lay of the senior? writer of Dreadwolf is no a good sign. Man this sucks. Them axing Mary Kirby is pretty much a coffin nail for me. All I can really say is that this does not bode well for the future of the project and that I hope Mary Kirby is snapped up by another studio immediately to work on something I want to play. Can't imagine a Dragon Age project without her, but I guess we'll have to. So fans have overfocused on writers losing their jobs, afterall. Also I'm surprised nobody posted the Jeff Grubb report yet, as he states ME team devs have been moved to fill in lost DA team gaps.Again....a lot of this is just circumstantial, but to get rid of people that know what makes Dragon Age " Dragon Age" is like getting an IP, then tossing out everyone that made it successful for the last 25-30+ years for whatever reason. I know some have (and will still) shout about "younger, newer voices", but this is not the time to bring them in. Not in a ride-or-die game like Dreadwolf; you put them on a new IP where they can show what they're capable of and with a fresh start. Mike Gamble leaving is a blessing still (I'll admit, even him leaving still felt odd), but the fact that they're getting rid of people that know what this franchise should be is just telling to me. I have no faith in Dragon Age: Dreadwolf anymore; this will be the final act for Bioware I'm afraid. And if it's not somehow, I doubt we're going to get another Dragon Age game after this, unless this somehow pulls a phoenix rising from the ashes and takes the gaming landscape by storm. If Inquisition (and with Andromeda Devs filling in) was anything to go by, this franchise is going to be shelved next. I'm really thankful at this point that Larian has Baldur's Gate III. To be fair, I felt Andromeda was better than Inquisition...so there's some razor-thin hope, but again - I highly doubt it after all this. when would be the time to bring them in if not now? Granted there is some concern they won't actually replace the writers they've lost and thus because of the loss won't be able to pass on the baton...but it is tragic that finaling and doing bug fixes for a game just is not a good job for writers. Beta testers though so tragically the end of the project is exactly when you will see this shift. Plus there are still those that can train the next generation.
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Post by FiendishlyInventive on Aug 25, 2023 1:41:49 GMT
It's Joever Biobros.
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Post by Beerfish on Aug 25, 2023 2:46:28 GMT
Maybe if they actually put a game out within a reasonable amount of time and made some money they would not have to lay off people.
Also as if all you youngins did not need a lesson, never ever ever be overly loyal to your work place.
While you are there do your very best and be the best worker you can be but if a better opportunity arises or if rumors of instability come up, leave in the blink of an eye without a second thought or any guilt at all.
I've known a LOT of people who worked their asses off and went FAR beyond the call of duty in their jobs and the moment they made too much money or the moment things somewhere in the company went south or the moment a new manager comes in you are out on your ass. Forgotten within a week.
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Post by Guardian on Aug 25, 2023 3:40:19 GMT
when would be the time to bring them in if not now? I answered that question already - you bring them on in a NEW IP. Not one that the entire studio's survival depends on. One that they can shape from the ground up, where expectations are low, and they're not under massive pressure to perform. Because if this goes badly (and so far, all signs point to it will), the first thing to get blamed will be the writers.
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Post by smilesja on Aug 25, 2023 4:21:35 GMT
No, you are just being deeply bad faith at interpreting my comments. Jesus Christ you're insufferable. Thank you for reminding me, in the space of 3 pages, of why I left the forum.
Honestly there's bad faith on both sides with dash of bigotry especially towards my friend.
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Post by smilesja on Aug 25, 2023 4:23:22 GMT
Jesus Christ you're insufferable. Thank you for reminding me, in the space of 3 pages, of why I left the forum.
Yeah, I’m quickly being reminded why I largely don’t participate here anymore and just assist with technical maintenance when I can. Because It's not like people here were ever friendly towards people who like DA: 2 and ME: A and the fact one person is being called a "corporate shill" for trying to interpret the situation the best he can.
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Post by smilesja on Aug 25, 2023 4:26:59 GMT
Now specifics and context will vary from case to case and the long term effects of this case are probably not going to see the consequences of this particular decision for a long time to come. But the basics of the logic is still rather sound. Teams can still be too large and unwieldy. Too bloated. Too many indians and not enough chiefs as well as the vice versa. So large where effective decision making is made a lot more complicated and thus things get harder to do, harder to communicate these decisions through an entire team and then get feedback. Hell now that I'm thinking about it I think Mark made a video which at least touched on this subject. So a larger team can be just as much of a problem for these companies as having a small team, and corporate speak or no, a smaller team can be more responsive, reactive, and creative, as a larger one. I've never really thought that this overly melodramatic argument is especially effective or helpful to any debate. BioWare still exists and they will continue to do so for the forseable future. Indeed since the 'corporate speak' has reaffirmed their commitment to both Dragon Age and Mass Effect moving forward then this still means they have years still. As for the team there have been several people which have been there for years and reprsent the 'old guard'. Fewer and fewer, sure, but BioWare still has people in key leadership positions which have been with the company as long as Mary Kirby. Leadership which will continue to ensure some continuity as they train the next generation, hopefully, of BioWare devs and continue to ensure the companies standars remain. Which while it does suck for the specific people involved we were going to lose Mary Kirby eventually. People retire and people move on from companies all the time or are laid off. Mary Kirby isn't BioWare, BioWare is BioWare and given how much I enjoyed Andromeda and even Anthem having some BioWare staples in it I'm not that concerned by the loss of any one dev. At least not yet. Though a lot will depend on how much these people will be able to pass onto the next generation. Somone might have a future as a corporate spokesperson. So are the mods are going to allow these insults?
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Post by wright1978 on Aug 25, 2023 4:47:50 GMT
I’ll just say this. We don’t know the current state of Dreadwolf. How much of an impact these losses have is heavily dependent on that. That’s the main reason I’m not comfortably jumping to any conclusions about these firings impacting the game’s timetable or quality. All we know is that the main story was playable from beginning to end when the alpha milestone was hit last year. It may be these people are being let go precisely because the development has reached a stage where they aren’t strictly needed. I doubt they’ll be changing the writing much at this stage, for example. Sheryl’s ‘they cut off my leg and expect me to run a marathon’ doesn’t fill me with hope
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Post by smilesja on Aug 25, 2023 5:20:58 GMT
Ehhh it's more of the old guard getting laid off rather than Bioware being "gone" but it's still sad to see. For some of us, BioWare was the old guard who gave it heart and soul. As more of the old guard now get carved away and cast aside as if garbage after 20+ years of writing some of our most beloved characters such as Varric... then, yes, for those of us who loved THAT BioWare, that version of it is slowly dying/gone. As much as you ask for people to understand you, it would be pleasurable if you would try to understand where others are coming from as well. Even then, people HATED Dragon Age 2 with a passion. Back then when I first joined, the old fans would often say cruel things to DA:2 fans. Insults, slurs, and I remember one person said that an artist deserved to have his hands chopped off for creating a picture of Hawke and Morrigan. To see it now being part of the "old guard" even though people thrashed it and thrashed me when I first joined the Bioware forum is ridiculous. People here never gave me a chance to understand why I loved games like DA: 2. Bioware fans treated me like trash and it's hilarious that DA: 2 is considered to be an "old guard" when I saw so much death threats to fans back then. So yeah, I can barely stand this site and these people who hate me for liking games that were hated and yet I sat and took it for years while you guys mourned Bioware dying. Honestly, Dragon Age fans have been awful to me and sometimes I wonder why I'm here talking to you guys. It's not like you guys cared about what I experienced for over a decade of being called every name in the books by a fanbase who CLAIMS to be diverse and caring but in reality are horrible people who treated me like garbage from 2011. COD and Overwatch fans were more welcoming to me than the Dragon Age fanbase ever was.
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Post by colfoley on Aug 25, 2023 5:27:03 GMT
Maybe if they actually put a game out within a reasonable amount of time and made some money they would not have to lay off people. Also as if all you youngins did not need a lesson, never ever ever be overly loyal to your work place. While you are there do your very best and be the best worker you can be but if a better opportunity arises or if rumors of instability come up, leave in the blink of an eye without a second thought or any guilt at all. I've known a LOT of people who worked their asses off and went FAR beyond the call of duty in their jobs and the moment they made too much money or the moment things somewhere in the company went south or the moment a new manager comes in you are out on your ass. Forgotten within a week. Plus always try and save money where you can in case the worse comes to pass. when would be the time to bring them in if not now? I answered that question already - you bring them on in a NEW IP. Not one that the entire studio's survival depends on. One that they can shape from the ground up, where expectations are low, and they're not under massive pressure to perform. Because if this goes badly (and so far, all signs point to it will), the first thing to get blamed will be the writers. That is actually a really compelling argument and I agree...though in BioWare's case its not really that feasible sadly. Right now they are struggling to make ME and DA and that is having severe consequences for the company so another IP, specifically for BioWare, is not really an option. Though to play with your idea I would have to wonder if EA would have smaller studios working on games in a much lower pressure situation that these people can get trained on before being funnelled into a place like BioWare. Don't know the feasibility of that either because I don't think its just BioWare facing issues but the entire company...it is an interesting thought to consider.
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Post by colfoley on Aug 25, 2023 5:38:20 GMT
For some of us, BioWare was the old guard who gave it heart and soul. As more of the old guard now get carved away and cast aside as if garbage after 20+ years of writing some of our most beloved characters such as Varric... then, yes, for those of us who loved THAT BioWare, that version of it is slowly dying/gone. As much as you ask for people to understand you, it would be pleasurable if you would try to understand where others are coming from as well. Even then, people HATED Dragon Age 2 with a passion. Back then when I first joined, the old fans would often say cruel things to DA:2 fans. Insults, slurs, and I remember one person said that an artist deserved to have his hands chopped off for creating a picture of Hawke and Morrigan. To see it now being part of the "old guard" even though people thrashed it and thrashed me when I first joined the Bioware forum is ridiculous. People here never gave me a chance to understand why I loved games like DA: 2. Bioware fans treated me like trash and it's hilarious that DA: 2 is considered to be an "old guard" when I saw so much death threats to fans back then. So yeah, I can barely stand this site and these people who hate me for liking games that were hated and yet I sat and took it for years while you guys mourned Bioware dying. Honestly, Dragon Age fans have been awful to me and sometimes I wonder why I'm here talking to you guys. It's not like you guys cared about what I experienced for over a decade of being called every name in the books by a fanbase that CLAIMS to be diverse and caring but in reality are horrible people who treated me like garbage from 2011. COD and Overwatch fans were more welcoming than the Dragon Age fanbase ever was. You know reading this I just realized that a lot of this talk about 'old guard' both within the fandom and within BioWare is kind of a low key example of the No True Scotsman fallacy. That only fans that have been around x number of years or devs that have been around x number of years and any newer devs can't do the same job...isn't logical.
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Post by Iakus on Aug 25, 2023 5:40:48 GMT
Somone might have a future as a corporate spokesperson. So are the mods are going to allow these insults? They have always been selective in rule enforcement. Their friends can do whatever, and people they don't like get stepped on. It's why I only hang out on a couple of threads here anymore.
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Post by river82 on Aug 25, 2023 5:41:43 GMT
and it's hilarious that DA: 2 is considered to be an "old guard" Released the same year as Skyrim? Pffft, that ain't old Old Bioware has to be preEA imo.
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Post by smilesja on Aug 25, 2023 5:44:59 GMT
and it's hilarious that DA: 2 is considered to be an "old guard" Released the same year as Skyrim? Pffft, that ain't old Old Bioware has to be preEA imo. In gaming years, that's foot in the grave old. XD
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Post by bierkrug on Aug 25, 2023 5:59:23 GMT
I only allow myself one full price game a year. Last year it was Elden Ring, this year, Baldur's Gate 3. Next year's will not be Dreadwolf. I have no trust in this studio and the game anymore. I doubt something that's constantly "reimagined" and has no core team to make sure there is a red thread through is worth more than the bargain bin. It saddens me. They don't even put any effort into their tie-in material. Just look at this crappy Missing comic that was supposed to hype up fans and was barely a wet fart.
So treating their staff as expendable? Just another nail in the coffin.
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Post by smilesja on Aug 25, 2023 6:03:20 GMT
Who, besides hardcore fans read the DA comics? If anything the show hyped me up way more than the comics.
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bierkrug
Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by bierkrug on Aug 25, 2023 6:16:26 GMT
Who, besides hardcore fans read the DA comics? If anything the show hyped me up way more than the comics. I don't consider myself a hardcore fan but I've read them all 😅
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inherit
The Smiling Knight
538
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Dec 12, 2024 19:55:50 GMT
24,470
smilesja
14,657
August 2016
smilesja
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Post by smilesja on Aug 25, 2023 6:21:08 GMT
Who, besides hardcore fans read the DA comics? If anything the show hyped me up way more than the comics. I don't consider myself a hardcore fan but I've read them all 😅 I honestly kept forgetting they had a comic book series. I've read most of the books though and I loved them.
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