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Post by gervaise21 on Aug 17, 2016 15:36:38 GMT
Another thing I am interested in is the link between the foci and the vallaslin. Other people have suggested this before. Whilst later they came to be associated with slave markings, could they have had some other significance in linking them in some way to their god? In the memory of the construction of the Grand Sollanium it states that thousands of elves are involved in this, drawing magic to do this simultaneously. This seems something that would need some sort of focus, an orb perhaps? There certainly would need to be some way to co-ordinate such an enterprise and ensure their efforts were synchronised. If that is how the Grand Sollanium was constructed, then perhaps that was also the case for all the great magical structures of the empire. For the largest works probably several gods and their followers had to work together to achieve them. We are also told that some magic required decades of preparation, even just for something like an individual wanting to explore the furthest reaches of the Fade. What then would it require for a major magical construction work like the Crossroads? In some ways it would probably have to require individuals surrendering their autonomy, at least during the actual construction process. Whether this was enforced on them or whether they did this by choice is something that has yet to be made clear. However, Abelas surrendered his previous name and his freedom when he started to serve Mythal in her Temple, yet seems to have done it of his own choice.
I do wonder if any of the wonders of the elven empire, that Solas clearly remembers with nostalgia, would actually have been possible without that level of co-operation and possible binding to the will of the person overseeing the construction. Also, if elves were originally spirits that became more material, then the first ones probably didn't see it as slavery but their purpose in life (shades of the Qun there). It occurs to me that could be why Solas hates the Qun above any other system in modern Thedas because the philosophy that lies behind the arrangement of their society is so close to the mentality of the society under the Evanuris. The Qunari do not see themselves as slaves, merely serving the higher purpose of maintaining their society through accepting the role assigned to them within it. May be that was also true of many of the elvhen, reinforced by the fact that they saw their leaders as gods. Which would mean that the elves who sought to free themselves were the equivalent of Tal-Vashoth, even to the extent that they are hunted down by those loyal to the system because their very freedom undermines it.
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Post by rapscallioness on Aug 19, 2016 4:32:36 GMT
From DA Wikia:
"It is Sylaise who gave us fire and taught us how to use it. It is Sylaise who showed us how to heal with herbs and with magic, and how to ease the passage of infants into this world. And again, it is Sylaise who showed us how to spin the fibers of plants into thread and rope." —From Codex entry: Sylaise: the Hearthkeeper
"We dedicate all our crafts to June, for it is he who taught the People to bend the branches of trees to make our bows, and to fashion coverings of furs and ironbark. Without June, would we have the aravel, or the harnesses for our halla?" —From Codex entry: June: God of the Craft
June is the elven Master of Crafts. He is described either as a brother to Andruil and Sylaise or as Sylaise's husband. He taught the elves to make all needful things, and in particular used Sylaise's gentle lessons to the elven people to teach them how to make bows, arrows, and knives to hunt Andruil's gifts. Elven legend tells how, before Sylaise came to teach them the use of fire and June to teach them to fashion bows and knives, the elves wandered the forests without purpose, eating only the berries and nuts they could find and shivering naked through cold nights.
Even Ghilhan'nain (sp?) is portrayed as an elven mortal. This before she was lured off and betrayed by an elven hunter who himself was presumably elven.
Ghilhan'nain was favored by Andruil. Andruil approached her about sharing the power of the gods with her if she destroyed the beasts she created first--because they were too dangerous.
So, there were mortal Elven people around while the Evanuris were also around.
These things lead me to believe the Evanuris and the Elven people of Thedas are two different beings. That when the Evanuris arrived/showed themselves, the elves already were in Thedas. The Evanuris saw them, perhaps took pity, and taught them skills to survive and thrive. The Evanuris may have also tailored their form to that of the elves of Thedas because it is simply easier to interact when you look like them. There might be fear or mistrust otherwise.
Whether, or not, Evanuris are actual Fade Spirits, I'm not persuaded. I see Evanuris more as multidimensional type beings -- for no reason at all, mind you. But I see them as a different breed than true Fade Spirits. They have much more ..personality and will than your usual true blue Fade Spirit.
The Evanuris come from some place else, and while they may admire and understand Fade Spirits, I don't think that necessarily equates with them being the same types.
**note abt the Ouroboros: hmm, this really reminds me of the story in Genesis of the Bible. The language is similar to me when god says he's going to put enmity between the serpent and "the woman". "..he will strike your head and you will strike his heel..". I mean, I've seen and read about the symbol of ouroboros before, but this is the first time that struck me.
At any rate, there's my 2 cents on it all.
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Post by gervaise21 on Aug 19, 2016 10:05:05 GMT
I am of the view that the stories the Dalish tell about the Creators guiding and teaching the earliest elves were likely true. No matter what the origins of the elves, but particularly if they were spirits who crossed over, they may well have needed guidance to advance, or at least to advance quicker than evolutionary methods would allow. This is why I feel the stories the Dalish tell are not incorrect, simply lacking the later descent into corruption and tyranny. It is all simply wrapped up in a story of a war between the gods and Fen'Harel's treachery, likely reflecting the source as the followers of the Evanuris who would have seen it in this light. Solas calls the Evanuris the "First of my People", so I do not think they are totally different in origin to the elves, certainly not the ancient ones like Solas and Abelas, who do look like the mosaic pictures of them and are different in other ways from modern elves.
I wonder what the actual meaning of "Evanuris" is? In the time of the Dales, the sword that was crafted for the leader of the Emerald Knights was "Evanura". It seems a bit too coincidental for them to have hit upon this name by chance. Solas says that they began their rise to godhood as generals in a war. So does Evanuris mean general/leader? Or could it simply mean defender/protector? That would explain the naming of the sword as the weapon of the ultimate defender/protector of the Dales.
So initially these gods were the Creators, during their period of creating the elven civilisation and teaching the members of it how to survive and build. Then they became the Evanuris (defenders) during the time of war that followed and this was the name that stuck during pre-Veil times because that is how they presented themselves to the people. In the warning against Fen'Harel they are shown as forming a ring around the danger, protecting the people from him.
I'm not sure but is it only Solas and his followers who call them Evanuris? May be they were being ironic and applying it as derisory terms, just as they called him Fen'Harel as an insult that he then took as a badge of honour. The memories of those in the Library just kept asking "where are the gods?" Even Gelduran simply denies them the title of gods and gives them their familiar names.
In the battle with Anduril, Mythal took the form of a great serpent, so the symbol of the serpent that is used in some iconography could simply be associated with her. Mythal, along with Elgar'nan, according to legend preceded all the other gods and in the Dalish stories is credited with being their mother. This could be symbolic motherhood if she brought about their existence in some other way. For example, Andruil in some stories is said to be a child of the earth but is also the daughter of Mythal/Elgar'nan. Both could be true in that the "parents" called an earth spirit into mortal form and gave her consciousness, just a Zathrian did the Lady of the Forest. The Lady also said that she was a guide to the werewolves but that she did not command them. This fits with the Creators originally being teachers and guides, who only later became commanders as war demanded of them.
Mythal clearly outranked the other gods, except Elgar'nan, and even he was said to have deferred to her judgement. She was the constructor of cities. She gave the elves their laws and was arbiter in disputes. So long as she was in control, Solas seems to have been content to allow the status quo. What I would still like to know if his rebellion started before her death or after it. Did she in fact encourage it? Had she realised that the other gods were becoming out of control and abusing their power? In view of what we have later been told about the rise of the Evanuris, I am particularly struck by the words of Flemeth to Merrill: "Then rise, the People are too quick to bow the knee". Now Flemeth must be aware that the Dalish mantra is "never again shall we submit", so I do wonder if she is referring back to an earlier time. She has no objection if the Inquisitor bows to her, since they are doing this as Mythal and she takes it as her due. However, when challenged why she did not do more, she suggests they do not know what they ask. I wonder if she actually wanted the people to achieve their freedom. She has helped the Dalish down the years because she admires their stance but make her terms difficult because she wants them to be independent where possible. Unlike Solas and Abelas, she does acknowledge the Inquisitor as one of the People. I'd really like to know when and why Mythal was killed in relation to everything else but I guess that will prove to be the key to discovering why Solas feels forced to continue his plan and how we might stop him.
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Post by rapscallioness on Aug 19, 2016 16:04:50 GMT
Honestly, I hope they are not spirits come down and all that. I hope they are just real beings that come from some other land outside of Thedas. Because Thedas is all we know and it's just a continent in a larger world.
I don't really want the spirit angle. It's too cotton candy sweet for me. To me it would be much more interesting to find that these so called gods were just "people" that became deified.
As far as the Vallaslin, to me it's an ancient elven Thedas version of a microchip shoved in the back of someone's brain to control them. But hey, as long as that deadline is met. amirit?
edit: the idea of them all being spirits come down, or come through, makes them veer way too far into this special snowflake territory.
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Post by gervaise21 on Aug 19, 2016 18:09:29 GMT
Well if anyone is from another part of the world that would be the humans and later the kossith/qunari. Both are said to have arrived first in the north from over the sea. If elves came from another place too, what is that place?
I don't really see how originating from spirits makes something all sweet and lovely. Merrill really sums up spirits rather well when she says that all spirits are dangerous. Having such an origin might explain their strangeness and certainly their single minded focus when engaged in something like constructing a magical wonder. It would also explain their longevity. In that they were totally different from dwarves, humans and qunari. Modern elves have the same sort of life span as the other races but ancient elves were ageless prior to the Veil. If they were simply ordinary earthbound creatures from another part of the world, why was their nature so different from other earthbound creatures? Saying they originated from spirits is the ordinary, mundane explanation. Anything else would render them special.
I find the term special snowflake somewhat annoying, particularly in a fantasy world. Mages by their very nature are special snowflakes, so are qunari, so are dwarves. Humans mysteriously arriving from over the sea is a lot more "special snowflake" than just evolving in the setting itself. I'm just looking at the sequence of events as given and allowing for the fact that none of the legends have the Evanuris actually creating the world itself. Having origins in the spirit world would explain the magical nature of these creatures but in terms of what they became, they were material beings the moment that started to live outside the Fade, ordinary people but some of them started to consider themselves more than that.
It would also at least partially fit with the religious myths that have the spirits (and their descendants) as the first children of the Maker and the humans, who never existed outside of the material world, as the second. Still, I'm quite prepared to throw the entire Chant out the window and start again from scratch about the origins of everything. Even elven recorded history only begins with the founding of Arlathan. That must be a considerable way down the line of elven development, unless of course Arlathan was the original Golden City.
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Post by rapscallioness on Aug 19, 2016 19:21:17 GMT
I don't think the Evanuris and the Elves of Thedas are the same beings. So, when I say they came from some other land, I mean the Evanuris. I see nothing wrong with coming from another land, though. Although, I think the elves evolved in what we know as Thedas.
Who is strange? The Evanuris, or the Elves? Or both? They both seem pretty mundane to me in their desires, will and actions. The Evanuris sound like they were engaged in typical power politics, and all the skullduggery that comes along that. They don't seem strange at all. And the truth is we know very little about any of the other races and their ancient past. We've just learned about the background of the elves and Evanuris.
You say the nature of the ancient elves is so different from the other earthbound races of Thedas, but what do we actually know about these other earthbound races, and their ancient past? We know much more about the ancient past of the elves then we do any other race at this point. And we just learned that. So you can't make that comparison, yet. We know nothing about any of these other races pre-Veil. Mages, Dwarves, Elves and Qunari are standard fare for the DA fantasy setting. There is nothing special snowflake about that. The mystery of the Humans has more to do with the writers not figuring out what to do with them yet.
I think the elves evolved in Thedas proper. I don't think the Evanuris are from Thedas proper. However, I don't think they have their origins in the Fade as Spirits. They don't need to have origins in the Fade to explain magical ability in a fantasy rpg. That's standard fare.
What looks to you like an apparently admirable single minded focus in building, looks to me like enslavement, and vulgar violation of an innocent race that these Evanuris took advantage of for there own glory and ends. The true Elves of Thedas.
When I say the idea of them being fade spirits, and especially in regards to your last paragraph about them and their descendants--presumably modern elves-being the first children of the Maker-Arlathan being the golden city. It becomes too much like Fiona. She did everything. Grey Warden; Leader of the mages; reversed the taint; Alistair's mother..it's too much. That's what I mean by veering into special snowflake territory. The Fiona Effect. Special snowflake territory is what is too "sweet". Not that the spirits are all nice beings.
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Post by gervaise21 on Aug 19, 2016 21:45:04 GMT
The thing is Solas calls the Evanuris the "First of my People". This suggests that there were just ordinary ancient elves that achieved godhood overtime. I am mindful of the fact that Flemeth calls Mythal the wisp of an "ancient being" rather than an "ancient elf", so they could have been something else entirely. Still it may only the difference between, say, an ancient Magister and a human slave of the Imperium. Both are of the same race but it is their magical ability and the position they have achieved in society that distinguishes between them.
All ancient elvhen look different from modern elves. There is the possibility that they always were different. So the difference in appearance isn't the result of being born post Veil but had been there from the beginning. So Abelas saying "you are not my people" has not just come about through the passage of time but was always the case. The elvhen priests were the favoured few who had positions of nobility, the ordinary elves were the slaves. Against that you have the fact that Flemeth/Mythal does acknowledge the modern elves as of the people.
Then there is the problem of Solas' plan to restore the elven people. Who is he trying to restore? If he tells an elven Inquisitor that they are going to die along with the other races, then presumably it is just the ancient elvhen. Is that because they are a different race or just because modern elves have changed too much over time? His previous action was intended to free the elven people, yet if they were different from the elvhen, then his intention to reverse the process is simply going to kill the people he previously freed.
This is where the idea that they originated in spirits come from. He always identifies most strongly with spirits. If killing an elf returns their spirit to the Fade to reform and return at a later date, then this could account for why he thinks his actions are going to benefit all elves. To be honest I am just trying to make sense of something that has become more and more confusing at each reveal.
Many of the characters in the plot have the "Fiona effect". Flemeth/Mythal, Solas, Corypheus, Leliana, Morrigan, the Inquisitor, Cole. The latter first introduced the idea that spirits could cross over, then Solas tells us that there was once no barrier to doing so. I'm just taking the information and applying it more generally in ancient times.
In DAI one of the plotlines allowed us to travel in time. I'd say that made Alexius and Dorian pretty special, Thedas timelords. After that pretty much anything is possible and a race evolving from spirits appears ordinary.
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Post by gervaise21 on Aug 20, 2016 13:12:19 GMT
Any thought on the identity of the Forgotten Ones? Were these just a separate group of powerful elves, who started being worshipped as gods as well, possibly after the Evanuris had been disposed of by Solas (going by the codex by Gelduran)? Were they banished by the Elgar'nan like the Forbidden Ones? Are the Forbidden Ones and the Forgotten Ones two groups that comprise the gods that the Dalish think of as the Forgotten Ones?
There are four Forbidden Ones that we have names for and they are definitely demons, even though Imshael objects to this term. There are three Forgotten Ones for whom we have names and areas of influence: Geldauran - Terror; Daern'thal - Malevolence/Spite; Anaris - Disease. Add these two groups together and you would have seven anti-Evanuris to match the seven original Creators. So were all the Forgotten Ones simply powerful spirits that could adopt mortal form if they wished (as Imshael seems to be able to do) or surrender it if they wanted to retreat back into the Fade, as Xebenkeck and others are accused of doing when banished from the lands of the Evanuris? When they do this they seem to suggest that the Forbidden Ones were acting like traitors or deserters from the war with the earth (titans?). This again suggests a kinship of some sort with the elvhen, or at least the Evanuris.
Geldauran denies their godhood by nature or their authority over him, which seems in keeping with Solas' views on the matter. However, it does appear as though he doesn't object to the idea of having authority over people by virtue of your deeds. He seems to vow to claim power of his own once the Evanuris are out of the way. Could he be one of the Old Gods but under a different name, Dumat for instance? Apart from the one codex in JoH and another in the Temple of Mythal relating to Andruil, plus a staff that can be bought in game, very little appears about the Forgotten Ones so far and yet considering their importance in Dalish myth as the bad guys, it seems strange that they weren't mentioned at all in the Crossroads. When Solas refers to the corrupt Evanuris, does he just mean those formerly known as the Creators or all those beings that the Dalish regard as gods?
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Post by rapscallioness on Aug 20, 2016 18:42:11 GMT
Yeeaah, time travel. Tch. And I actually love time travel stories, but...tch.
edit: and don't forget the lizard people.
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Post by cloud9 on Aug 22, 2016 0:19:24 GMT
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Post by gervaise21 on Aug 24, 2016 11:50:10 GMT
I have been going over the codices in the Jaws of Hakkon again because to me the beliefs of the Avaar are likely as close as you can get to what the ancient human tribes were. This seems borne out by such ideas as certain favoured souls being reborn in pre-ordained vessels in the Avaar and the Neromenians believing their heroes would be reborn as dragons. Those reborn do not consciously remember their former lives but are guided by subconscious visions and portents (shades of Andraste?)
The Avaar know that their gods are spirits of varying power than can speak to their mages from the Fade, particularly the chief mage, the Auger. The Neromenian dreamers rose to power through being able to receive advice from spirits of the Fade. The Avaar believe a spirit can also be called out of the Fade and bound to a mortal creature. Obviously the more powerful the better so what better than a dragon? The Neromenians also believed their old gods were manifest as dragons. After the death of the mortal vessel the god spirit returns to the Fade but can be restored/reborn by the constant prayers and belief of the faithful. When it does the spirit appears the same but also different (remember what Solas said about his friend).
However, I am also struck by how close the various gods of the Avaar are to not just the old human gods but the elven ones as well. Are the Asttrariums meant to be telling us something in their descriptions when they link certain constellations to gods in each pantheon? Apart from these, there are other references. Sigfrost, the Guardian of Wisdom is also known as the Great Bear. The elves believe that the bear is sacred to Dirthamen, the god of secrets and knowledge. Rilla of the Fireside is responsible for fertility and babies; the elves have Sylaise the hearthkeeper, likely responsible for similar things (although Mythal is the goddess of motherhood). Uvolla, the patron of the Wending Wood, was said to accept living sacrifices; seems similar to Andruil, the huntress. The Avaar even have a trickster god Imhar; the elves have Fen'Harel.
Apparently some Avaar legends do admit that Korth was originally a mortal hunter who guided the people to the Frostbacks and then it would seem later rose to godhood among them. I do wonder if the Lady of the Skies was an incarnation of Mythal. In the legend of Tyrdda, her leaf eared lover was named the "laughing Lady of the Skies", so she could have been a mortal woman(like Flemeth) who Mythal indwelt. There is also a legend that claims the city stronghold of Korth, Belenas, was raised into the heavens by the Lady of the Skies. (Belanar/Belanaris in elven = eternal, so eternal city?) This left a great crater which the Lady of the Skies filled with her tears. The later Tevinter believe the lake to have been blessed by Razikale as the goddess of mysteries but I wonder if this doesn't reflect some earlier legend that recalls Mythal and the Well of Sorrows. Then again, there is also Maryden's song about the elves, when she says that Arlathan fell, deep unto the ocean floor. So do all these strands of legend have some common source, what in fact happened to the true Arlathan? When Solas raised the Veil, the city was sundered, part being raised to the skies (the Golden City) and the rest submerged beneath water?
It was also interesting that the Jaws of Hakkon back in the Divine Age consulted with the "Great Spirit", who gave them knowledge of the hidden elf stones (shards), that allowed them entry into the Old Cave where they acquired the Mystery of Winter that enabled them to bind the spirit of Hakkon to the dragon. Is it just co-incidence that we also find a codex in there from one of the Forgotten Ones, Gelduran?
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Post by Reznore on Aug 25, 2016 1:20:47 GMT
Talking about Geldauran I have a feeling the Solasan temple was supposed to be a Forgotten Ones temple. It's supposed to be an ancient elven temple even if there's some strange thing like warden effigy inside.(outside you can imagine people over time brought in their own statues). Anyway what makes me believe this is it works the same as Geldauran hole in the ground , a special door with a strange key and also the lack of Evanuris statues. If it is the case I'd say some of the Forgotten Ones were In Uthenera , lots of tombs and lots of undead and revenants in there. In MOE , Felassan says nobles in uthenera also had their own tomb with a path like the one at the temple of Mythal but again I'd imagine you'd find statues of the gods in there. And you have to wonder what happened to all those folks in Uthenera when the veil went up.Surely Solas , Felassan and a bunch of sentinels at the temple of Mythal aren't the only one who managed to survive. The ancient elves were able to communicate with those In Uthenera , I think at the very least in dreams so yeah back to who the hell was talking with humans? Spirits , demons , ancient elves spirity demony thing? It gets a bit complicated to figure what is what exactly.
It certainly puts in perspective the fact that humans were thinking they were speaking to godlike beings when the elves had a much easier time navigating the fade and they ended up worshipping their "peers". Also the elves weren't destroyed by a scorned Godlike figure either , they destroyed themselves. Although there is the rumors of what they annoyed in the Deep Roads , and it scared them but it isn't held responsible for their downfall. So back then there might have been something more powerful than elves and Evanuris but beyond "The Void" and the Forgotten Ones (who were regular "elves" they didn't believe in divinity at all ) there's no other known boogeyman.
I personaly believe the Evanuris fought the "Sun" (aka the proto Maker) but that's more of a feeling I have than a theory I can defend with lots of facts.
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Post by gervaise21 on Aug 25, 2016 12:33:45 GMT
Well fighting with the Maker as the sun would make sense symbolically since the emblem of the Maker is consistently shown as the sun. However, according to Dalish legend this was just Elgar'nan and Mythal was able to bring about a reconciliation between them. After which creation was a joint effort between the Sun, Earth, Elgar'nan and Mythal. So if you think of the Maker as a sort of Eternal Spirit responsible for creation, then may be so long as those known as the Creators by the Dalish were just creating, the Maker (Sun) didn't have a problem with them. The Chant even says this is the sort of thing he wanted spirits to do.
The later battle that Solas refers to is the important one. This is the war that led to their rise to godhood. Was this against the authority of the Sun or something else? This is where many people feel the Titans fit in. The increased use of magic disturbed the Titans, which led to earthquakes that damaged Mythal's cities in particular, so she led the Evanuris in a war against them. This seems borne out by the various codices in her Temple and in Trespasser concerning this.
Then the Dalish claim that at the time Solas locked them away, the Creator gods were engaged in a battle with the Forgotten Ones. Did the Forgotten Ones aid Solas in raising the Veil. They seemed to hang out in the Void already, if the codex about Andruil is accurate, so raising the Veil would not unduly inconvenience them but trapping the Evanuris would be of benefit. Or was it in fact the Maker who gave Solas the knowledge, even if only indirectly?
In view of everything we know about Avaar beliefs and the claims of Gelduran, I find the bit of the Chant about the rejection of the Maker by the human tribes rather interesting. The Neromenian king wished to go to war for more land and consulted his Oracles (Augers)whether he would have the Maker's support. The answer was in the negative. Then up came Thalsian and said if the king would swap to another god (Andraste of course names it a demon), then he would be given victory. So the king, Antoridus, agrees. He defeats the Inghirsh and then turns his attention to the Planescene. Their king, Damertes, is understandably worried about the approach of the Neromenians and asks his Augers for advice. Initially the Maker suggests anointing their fields with water from their sacred river because the Neromenians are known to burn the fields as they approach. This works in stopping the burning of the fields but the Planascene still take heavily losses in the first day's fighting and seem unlikely to prevail on the next. So Damertes goes back to his Augers and asks them to consult the stars (Maker?) but found nothing. Then another Auger says that if he will turn from the Maker and worship his god (demon), then SHE will defend them. Damertes agrees and the enemy army are struck down with boils and pain (disease), so unable to continue the fight.
The upshot of this sequence is that the Maker is no longer worshipped by either the Neromenians or the Planascene. Now whilst the Neromenians were simply being aggressors, I do have some sympathy with the Planascene king, who was just trying to save his people from destruction. Why didn't the Maker do more to help? The Chantry would of course say it was just a test of faith but that seems a bit pointless if all your worshippers are going to end up dead. The Maker clearly did try and help in giving the advice about the fields. This, of course, resulted in preservation without any accompanying destruction. So is the Maker in fact unable to act in a destructive way because he is a Creative spirit? To do otherwise would go against his nature. So he can only act through mortals or not at all.
The other thing I find of interest is that we know the spirit/demon advising Thalsian was Dumat, so was the female spirit/demon advising the Planascene Razikale or Zazikal, the only two Old Gods that we know are definitely female? It is also of note that among the fields of interest of the Forgotten Ones are said to be terror, malice/spite and pestilence. Their worshippers among the elves of the Tirashan offer them their enemies as a sacrifice and to get their initial help the ancient humans were required to make burned offerings of animals (humans presumably came later). The effect of the god helping the Neromenians would definitely be terror among their victims and the effect of the god helping Planascene was some form of pestilence among their victims. How they came to be afflicted in that way would also be something of a mystery (pointing to Razikale as the instigator). So, if the history Andraste recounts is correct (likely taken from earlier oral accounts among the tribes) then there does seem to be quite a strong link between the Old Gods and the Forgotten Ones.
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Post by gervaise21 on Aug 27, 2016 11:38:36 GMT
Another question concerning the front pages of the World of Thedas 2, specifically the Contents page. There is the picture of an enormous statue that recalls to mind some of the images of the Evanuris but could equally well be a stylised depiction of one of the Old Gods. Beneath its left arm are some steps leading up to a pedestal with what appears to be an orb floating above it. A dark figure is standing in front of it. Any ideas what this might be meant to be depicting?
I don't think it is meant to be Corypheus, unless it while he was still in the disguise of a warden because the figure is wearing a normal hood and coat. There appears to be something on their shoulder, which could either be a piece of armour, or could it be a bird? It appears to be somewhere deep underground but with light shining down on it from above. Does anyone recall seeing anything like this location in game?
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Post by Reznore on Aug 27, 2016 18:36:33 GMT
It's the Inquisitor in front of the Well of Sorrow in the temple of Mythal , Gervaise. You can see a couple of art concept for the Well of Sorrows in the DA art books and a couple looked like the Well was underground.
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Post by gervaise21 on Aug 27, 2016 19:12:57 GMT
Wow, then they really changed it in game. That looks nothing like it. I wonder why they used it in World of Thedas 2 if it was no longer part of the game world? Oh well, just another oddity to be found in World of Thedas 2.
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Post by dayze on Aug 31, 2016 17:31:01 GMT
One thing I was thinking about is; by and large the gods seem to exist just at a level much more "down to earth"(?) than most of the followers think if.
Kind of like Flemeth and her statement of you "worship too soon" or some such thing.
When Merrill makes her mirror the demon comes out of it. What if the reason why spirits/demons used to be able to go back and forth from the fade with no problem was simply because Eluvian's were all over the place?
"He did not want a body. But she asked him to come. He left a scar when he burned her off his face."
"Bare-faced but free, frolicking fighting, fierce. He wants to give wisdom, not orders."
"The guardian spirits stayed. Not bound but biding. Because he asked. He knows how to speak so spirits listen."
"His friend had to die. Because he thought they were people. A slow arrow breaks in the sad wolf's jaws."
"He broke the dreams to stop the old dreams from waking. The wolf chews its leg off to escape the trap."
So it sounds like Mythal might have bound Solas and then had him bind other spirits in return here?
The slow arrow part makes me think that codex entry about the "slow arrow" might be a little more complex than what was let on.
He "broke the dreams"? Sounds like he made someone tranquil in some way, himself?
Something to think about; Solas has the wolf's jaw bone that he wears on his chest right? What if that's not just "any wolf's" jaw bone but specifically the one he was bound with when he was first brought over ala Lady of the Forest?
Andruil is a "child of the earth", working under the assumption that she's not a creation of the Titan's in some way. Could she have been like the warden's? Tainted? She comes from the earth, the void is deep within the earth. She shows up with what seems to be red lyrium later. She would go into the void or the abyss and hunt things, coming back more and more crazy each time. Was she essentially a "grey warden" of the Evanuris and going crazy because she was starting to hear "The Call"?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 31, 2016 17:33:01 GMT
It makes sense that Mythal bound Solas. If not he might have raged and become a full pride demon. I think his muti-eyed wolf form is from rebelling. Also it explains his anger at Cole for wanting to be bound and the Inquisitor being bound to Mythal.
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Post by Iakus on Aug 31, 2016 18:34:38 GMT
One thing I was thinking about is; by and large the gods seem to exist just at a level much more "down to earth"(?) than most of the followers think if. Kind of like Flemeth and her statement of you "worship too soon" or some such thing. When Merrill makes her mirror the demon comes out of it. What if the reason why spirits/demons used to be able to go back and forth from the fade with no problem was simply because Eluvian's were all over the place? "He did not want a body. But she asked him to come. He left a scar when he burned her off his face."
"Bare-faced but free, frolicking fighting, fierce. He wants to give wisdom, not orders."
"The guardian spirits stayed. Not bound but biding. Because he asked. He knows how to speak so spirits listen."
"His friend had to die. Because he thought they were people. A slow arrow breaks in the sad wolf's jaws."
"He broke the dreams to stop the old dreams from waking. The wolf chews its leg off to escape the trap."So it sounds like Mythal might have bound Solas and then had him bind other spirits in return here? The slow arrow part makes me think that codex entry about the "slow arrow" might be a little more complex than what was let on. He "broke the dreams"? Sounds like he made someone tranquil in some way, himself? Something to think about; Solas has the wolf's jaw bone that he wears on his chest right? What if that's not just "any wolf's" jaw bone but specifically the one he was bound with when he was first brought over ala Lady of the Forest? Andruil is a "child of the earth", working under the assumption that she's not a creation of the Titan's in some way. Could she have been like the warden's? Tainted? She comes from the earth, the void is deep within the earth. She shows up with what seems to be red lyrium later. She would go into the void or the abyss and hunt things, coming back more and more crazy each time. Was she essentially a "grey warden" of the Evanuris and going crazy because she was starting to hear "The Call"? Are these lines from Cole? My thoughts on them are: "He did not want a body. But she asked him to come. He left a scar when he burned her off his face."Sounds like Solas was once a follower of Mythal, until she freed him "he burned her off his face" sounds like the vallaslin marking him as her follower was removed. Perhaps he was reluctant, wanted to stay in uthenera rather than the waking world? "Bare-faced but free, frolicking fighting, fierce. He wants to give wisdom, not orders."
Sounds like Solas, no vallaslin, rebelling against the Evanuris. Not wanting to lead, but to promote questioning and learning.
"The guardian spirits stayed. Not bound but biding. Because he asked. He knows how to speak so spirits listen."
Spirit allies we haven't met yet? Simply a comment on his rapport with spirits? "His friend had to die. Because he thought they were people. A slow arrow breaks in the sad wolf's jaws."
Reference to The Masked Empire and Felassan, which translates to "Slow Arrow" Solas's agent who sided with Briala and refused to give Solas the pass code for the eluvian network she controlled. Solas killed him for that. Remember, Solas sees non mages as little more than Tranquil. not "real people" "He broke the dreams to stop the old dreams from waking. The wolf chews its leg off to escape the trap."
Solas creating the Veil, sundering it from the waking world? This took magic and immortality from the elves. rendering them essentially Tranquil to Solas's eyes. But he did it to stop the Evanuris...to keep them in the Fade, separated from the rest of the elves? And Solas managed to escape his own trap, but was greatly weakened (he didn't have the strength to access the Orb)
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Post by Deleted on Aug 31, 2016 18:37:00 GMT
The guardian spirits are the ones we meet and can talk to if we drank from the Well.
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Post by Iakus on Aug 31, 2016 18:41:19 GMT
Another thing I am interested in is the link between the foci and the vallaslin. Other people have suggested this before. Whilst later they came to be associated with slave markings, could they have had some other significance in linking them in some way to their god? In the memory of the construction of the Grand Sollanium it states that thousands of elves are involved in this, drawing magic to do this simultaneously. This seems something that would need some sort of focus, an orb perhaps? There certainly would need to be some way to co-ordinate such an enterprise and ensure their efforts were synchronised. If that is how the Grand Sollanium was constructed, then perhaps that was also the case for all the great magical structures of the empire. For the largest works probably several gods and their followers had to work together to achieve them. We are also told that some magic required decades of preparation, even just for something like an individual wanting to explore the furthest reaches of the Fade. What then would it require for a major magical construction work like the Crossroads? In some ways it would probably have to require individuals surrendering their autonomy, at least during the actual construction process. Whether this was enforced on them or whether they did this by choice is something that has yet to be made clear. However, Abelas surrendered his previous name and his freedom when he started to serve Mythal in her Temple, yet seems to have done it of his own choice. Given vallaslin is "blood writing" and is made at least in part from the blood of the elf receiving the markings, I'm thinking it was a form of blood magic to help the Evanuris control their followers/slaves. So it is possible I suppose that such a bond could be used to coordinate massive magical undertakings. Especially if pretty much every elf in existence has some degree of magical talent.
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Post by rapscallioness on Aug 31, 2016 21:47:42 GMT
snip In view of everything we know about Avaar beliefs and the claims of Gelduran, I find the bit of the Chant about the rejection of the Maker by the human tribes rather interesting. The Neromenian king wished to go to war for more land and consulted his Oracles (Augers)whether he would have the Maker's support. The answer was in the negative. Then up came Thalsian and said if the king would swap to another god (Andraste of course names it a demon), then he would be given victory. So the king, Antoridus, agrees. He defeats the Inghirsh and then turns his attention to the Planescene. Their king, Damertes, is understandably worried about the approach of the Neromenians and asks his Augers for advice. Initially the Maker suggests anointing their fields with water from their sacred river because the Neromenians are known to burn the fields as they approach. This works in stopping the burning of the fields but the Planascene still take heavily losses in the first day's fighting and seem unlikely to prevail on the next. So Damertes goes back to his Augers and asks them to consult the stars (Maker?) but found nothing. Then another Auger says that if he will turn from the Maker and worship his god (demon), then SHE will defend them. Damertes agrees and the enemy army are struck down with boils and pain (disease), so unable to continue the fight.snip The other thing I find of interest is that we know the spirit/demon advising Thalsian was Dumat, so was the female spirit/demon advising the Planascene Razikale or Zazikal, the only two Old Gods that we know are definitely female? It is also of note that among the fields of interest of the Forgotten Ones are said to be terror, malice/spite and pestilence. Their worshippers among the elves of the Tirashan offer them their enemies as a sacrifice and to get their initial help the ancient humans were required to make burned offerings of animals (humans presumably came later). The effect of the god helping the Neromenians would definitely be terror among their victims and the effect of the god helping Planascene was some form of pestilence among their victims. How they came to be afflicted in that way would also be something of a mystery (pointing to Razikale as the instigator). So, if the history Andraste recounts is correct (likely taken from earlier oral accounts among the tribes) then there does seem to be quite a strong link between the Old Gods and the Forgotten Ones. This just reminded me of that secret boss in DA2 Legacy dlc. Malvernis: (from DA Wikia and "Amgeforn the Foul"). There are two other codex entries about Malvernis as well, "Amgeforn the Wasteyard" and "Amgeforn the Lonely Vigil". " Malvernis is a unique entity within Thedas, it is seemingly a Demon of some kind but even this is not known for certain. Malvernis attacked the dwarves first but eventually came to the surface. Malvernis initially takes on the form of a humanoid mage, with a long black robe with white trim, and a black cowl which obscures its face and is capable of creating spectral Skeletons to attack its enemies. Malvernis is also capable of transforming into a strange spectral version of a High dragon."
and Amgeforn the Foul: " We called it Malvernis. The Pestilent One. It devoured thaigs, turning our fairest work into a noxious waste. It consumed living warriors, turning their bodies to slime, and when its hunger was not abated, it consumed the bones of our ancestors.
Foulness came from its touch, poison and filth and desecration. It threatened even the Stone itself. The Shapers bound it. Chained in lyrium stained with the blood of a hundred warriors. But within the orb, it hungered, it waited.
We carried it here to the wasteland of the surface, where it can threaten nothing of value. The Stone will live. The Stone must live. We have sworn to defend it from the Foul One at any price." Interesting references to orbs in these codices. Malvernis is apparently trapped/bound in an orb, and it wants to compel others to carry the orb out of "Amgeforn".
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Post by dayze on Sept 1, 2016 4:42:51 GMT
Wasn't one of the forgotten ones from Solas's time associated with plague and pestilence? Sounds like it could be one of them, especially coming from underground which was implied to be where they found their power wasn't it?
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Post by gervaise21 on Sept 1, 2016 8:45:20 GMT
Well Malvernis could have been the thing which caused such terror among the elves that they sealed it away in the depths of the earth. May be it was something that grew out of the corruption of the dead Titan. Then the dwarves uncovered it and discovered why the elves had cause to fear. I just wonder if it was really the Shapers that bound it in the orb. Knowing what we now do about the elves, using an orb seems more connected with them. Or was this some assistance provided by the early Tevinter Magisters? Clearly blood magic was used to seal it away in the orb and Dorian mentions seeing ancient Dreamers with foci. In fact, when they call it lyrium "stained" with blood, that suggests it was made a different colour? Red lyrium perhaps?
The dwarves say that Malvernis was simply the name they gave to it, so it could easily be a manifestation of one of the Forgotten Ones, since the whole point of them being "forgotten" is that their names should not be mentioned. Something that "consumes" the living sounds very similar to the way the red lyrium "consumes" the living. One turns them to slime, the other into more red lyrium. I'm pretty sure all are connected to the Blight in some way, because all have their origins in the anti-life of the Void. In fact I tend to think of Blight magic as Void magic, as opposed to regular Fade magic. Solas says that Blight magic is a poisoned chalice. It is a source of power that corrupts everything it touches. That sounds like Malvernis.
I keep being drawn back to the question "Why does this world have to die?" I think it goes beyond just Solas being dissatisfied with the state of governance or the lack of magic but something fundamentally wrong. In the old Dalish legends he was said to have shut away two sets of gods. He also gave two reasons why he shut away the Evanuris; on the one hand it was vengeance for the death of Mythal, on the other it was because otherwise they would have destroyed the world. I'm pretty sure that he did find some way to seal in the Forgotten Ones to prevent their spread in the world physically, which is why they then tried to achieve their aims by speaking "in hushed whispers" to the human mages. Even Corypheus seems to agree with the Chant that he was encouraged to breach the Veil and enter the Golden City by Dumat. I'm pretty sure that "Dumat" knew that simply breaching the wards on the Golden City would also break the seal on whatever was holding them deep beneath the earth, so their corruption could start to spread. The dwarves were also adamant that the corruption was there before the 1st Blight. Corypheus also seems to suggested that they weren't responsible for creating the taint, they simply "discovered" it. I don't think it is merely coincidence that they placed Malvernis in the same location of Corypheus' prison. All these things are connected.
Oh, yes, and despite what the Architect seems to suggest, that it was he who corrupted Urthemiel, I think he merely awoke the dragon but that it was already corrupted. That's why he couldn't "free" it in the same way he did the other darkspawn because it was associated with the source of the corruption and therefore could not be controlled. The entry about that dwarf discovering an archdemon prison seems to suggest it has a permanent aura about it that would imply the taint was already in the rocks, which would be odd if the dragon was only corrupted when the darkspawn got there. The song of the archdemon is the song of the taint that attracts darkspawn, but they were allegedly already being attracted to its location before they broke through. Also it suggest that the darkspawn were surrounding it as though in worship. Again this suggests that it was already tainted and so they recognised it as their "god".
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Post by rapscallioness on Sept 2, 2016 4:53:08 GMT
Yeah, sounds like the Blight to me. Or some aspect of it. DAO Flemeth stated the Blight will always be nipping at your heels.
Although, apparently, dwarves were binding..spirits, or demons, or something into runes a long time ago iirc from the hissing wastes. I'm trying to remember..it was before the first blight? (I don;t feel like looking it up). But iirc, it was something along those lines. This dwarf house left the underground to keep..somebody..from using their inventions as weapons of mass destruction..
Well, at any rate, I remember some note from the Vents that were there. They were wondering the same thing. How the heck did the dwarves bind these spirits in the runes.
I'm not convinced it was the Forgotten ones that were whispering to the humans. It may just as well have been some of the Evanuris trying to break free of their prison. I mean, they have to be pretty ticked off and antsy.
Although, I have not looked too much into the Forgotten Ones' lore, yet.All I remember is that they would not help the people; they left the earth; and there were warnings that they could take on different forms..so beware, or something like that.
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