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Post by DragonKingReborn on Apr 18, 2024 2:16:00 GMT
So...it has been a minute since the credits rolled on Dragon Age: Inquisition - Trespasser, hasn't it?
Our best guesses/tips from industry insiders has Dragon Age DreadWolf releasing "sometime" this year - presumably November or December - with a possibility of a slip into early/mid 2025.
The game named Dreadwolf that we finally get to play will likely have - at minimum - 10 years between its release date and the release of its predecessor. However, it has not made full use of that decade and change. First, MEA soaked up a lot of dev hours after realising BioWare Magic wasn't coming to the rescue. Then, Anthem. And we remember how that turned out. Some people liked it, and that's great. But the treatment it received from EA speaks volumes. It didn't land with a meaningful enough segment of the game playing public. Then DA "4" was live service, scrapping the smaller, heist game it had been. Then the live service version was scrapped some time later, announcing a Single Player only experience. That version of the game has had "a few" years of dev time. We've all been waiting a lot longer than that.
The question for the thread is sort of double barrelled.
1) Will you be judging the final product of Dragon Age Dreadwolf against the time that specific version of the game has had for development? Or the entirety of the time between the release of Trespasser and the release of Dreadwolf?
And
2) Assuming Dreadwolf is the most action oriented entry in the series, is that automatically "points deducted"? For context, before he departed from BioWare, Mark Darrah was responding to a post from someone about hoping Dragon Age returned to its 'tactical gameplay' roots, and he said that it was unlikely, and if anything they'd probably "skew further in the opposite direction" i.e. towards more action oriented gameplay, like The Witcher, or God of War.
The below video, from Mortismal Gaming (one of only three gaming related Youtubers I follow) discusses sequels and their expectations. It specifically namechecks Dragon Age as the poster child for the problem of game design and gameplay innovation versus iteration (although the video is not about Dragon Age per se).
So; can a full Action RPG Dragon Age win you over if you believe (like I do) that the series peaked in its first offering?
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Post by DragonKingReborn on Apr 18, 2024 2:20:58 GMT
My own answer to 2 is fairly straightforward. No. I have been playing a lot more - almost exclusively - action games since 2014/15 than I had previously, and I've become accustomed to pressing a button and having something Awesome happen... sorry. So I can and will separate DA:D gameplay from previous games and enjoy it based on how well it does All The Things; story, characters, combat, visuals etc. 1 is harder. I'd like to believe I can be fair. I'd like to believe I can acknowledge the game we get to play has had much less dev time than I have been waiting for. But a lot of time has passed. At the moment, I'm just not sure that any reaction I have won't be heavily informed by how much time I've had to wait.
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Post by Sanunes on Apr 18, 2024 2:58:57 GMT
1) I have no expectations for the game, the amount of time for release won't impact my feelings about the game. It will all about how much I am enjoying the experience of playing Dreadwolf and doing everything I can to avoid the internet rumor mill setting my expectations for the game. I am even going to do my best to avoid as much as possible. I have taken that strategy for multiple games since Inquisition and been enjoying games or if I don't like them I can tell right away without hoping they eventually meet up with what developers promised (i.e. Cyberpunk 2077). Now for me I am more of a sci-fi gamer so I have always preferred the more modern/futuristic games like Mass Effect too so that will impact my feelings on Dreadwolf too.
2) Again I don't think that will impact my feelings about the game, I am all for different styles of gameplay. I would never expect tactical gameplay in the first place so I don't see how it could impact my experience with the game. It would be expecting it to be a point and click game. Developers in my eyes need to stick to where the industry is moving to and away from so they can manage the sales to try and generate the sales for if they were going to be more tactical then the direction and budget would be shrunk and I doubt the internet would be happy again since even in the past "this looks two generations" back was a common complaint against BioWare.
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Post by githcheater on Apr 18, 2024 3:08:52 GMT
I will probably be judging DAD based on when it was declared single player, given that Bioware's attention span before that was whiplashed.
I will probably tend to judge DAD apprehensively if it more action focused. If it still has pause ability that would temper my apprehensiveness
However ...
I liked more actiony Shadow of Mordor (with a good story, immersive world, and decent NPC character development), because the combat was semi-tactical and also used stealth. I was a also emotionally invested in the PC even though he was prebuilt. However I was relieved when I was done with the game because some of my finger tips had slight numbness, and I was concerned I might be developing carpal tunnel again (many years later).
I enjoyed Witcher 3 on easy mode and thought it had a good story, excellent side quests, an immersive world, and decent NPC character development. However, Geralt tended to be dull as dishwater, and I recall the combat having limited tacticality.
I enjoyed Skyrim on easy mode and thought it had a good story, excellent side quests, an immersive world, enjoyable character capability building, and decent NPC character development. However, I found that the PC only had limited opportunity for character development.
I enjoyed Hogwarts on easy mode because of the good story, excellent graphics, the immersive world and good NPCs, despite narrowly focused character capability building, a boring loot system and limited tactical combat.
I enjoyed Elder Scrolls Online because of the good primary story. However, I found the combat to be somewhat bland, and I tired of the many fetch quests.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Apr 18, 2024 4:00:00 GMT
1) Will you be judging the final product of Dragon Age Dreadwolf against the time that specific version of the game has had for development? Or the entirety of the time between the release of Trespasser and the release of Dreadwolf? And 2) Assuming Dreadwolf is the most action oriented entry in the series, is that automatically "points deducted"?1. Yes. Any version of the game has been in development longer than any other in the series so if it is inferior it will be judged for it. 2. Yes. If it goes full action combat like the examples you gave instead of having some form of the tactical gameplay the others had, that would be points off.
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Post by Absafraginlootly on Apr 18, 2024 4:45:26 GMT
1) Will you be judging the final product of Dragon Age Dreadwolf against the time that specific version of the game has had for development? Or the entirety of the time between the release of Trespasser and the release of Dreadwolf?
Neither, why would I take that into account in my judgement of the game? Either I like it or I don't. Or do you actually mean will it effect my opinion of the developers?
2) Assuming Dreadwolf is the most action oriented entry in the series, is that automatically "points deducted"?
I have a preference for RTwP and Turn Based over Live Action with character skill attack/dodge/block (lotro, wow) and a HUGE preference for them over Action with player skill attack/dodge/block (Skyrim, Witcher 3). So it will automatically result in me not enjoying the combat as much, doesn't effect whether I enjoy the story and characters though, perhaps how many times I do so... depending on the type, quality and difficulty of the action combat.
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Post by DragonKingReborn on Apr 18, 2024 5:09:13 GMT
Neither, why would I take that into account in my judgement of the game? Either I like it or I don't. Meant it in a "this was worth the wait/investment of time" (or not) way. Avengers Endgame was worth the investment of my time (to me). The final episode of Game of Thrones was not. Or put another away, if I have to wait a long, long time for something - I'm likely to want more from it than if I only wait a very short time.
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Post by DragonKingReborn on Apr 18, 2024 5:15:50 GMT
Developers in my eyes need to stick to where the industry is moving to and away from so they can manage the sales I remember on BSN Prime that when it was announced Inquisition would have multiplayer, I was dead against it for the exact opposite of this stance I thought that they should stay SP only and fully concentrate on that because it would be a point of difference for them. But it's a fair point. Even as far back as DA2 David Gaider was lamenting players who were demanding Dragon Age Origins 2 didn't understand they were longing for games that didn't exist anymore. It's fair to say he couldn't have anticipated BG3 at that time, of course.
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Post by DragonKingReborn on Apr 18, 2024 5:17:06 GMT
I will probably be judging DAD based on when it was declared single player, given that Bioware's attention span before that was whiplashed. That's fair - I hope I can manage to do that as well.
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Post by Andraste_Reborn on Apr 18, 2024 5:18:36 GMT
1. Knowing as much of the development history as I do, I definitely won't be judging this like I would a game that had spent ten years developing a single version. (I mean, fingers crossed they were able to carry stuff across from the two previous versions! But if not, oh well, I'm happy the game is finally coming out.)
2. I am kind of sad that after three games I happily play on Nightmare I'm probably going to have to play DAD on the lowest difficulty and still suffer and die and hurt my hands a lot. I just hope the story mode is easy enough for me to get through without cheat mods, really.
I think it's statistically likely that I'll enjoy DAD - I've loved all three previous games, I really just want to be back in Thedas with a cast of new characters (and hopefully a few old friends) to interact with.
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Post by gervaise21 on Apr 18, 2024 6:49:49 GMT
1) At this stage I will treat it as an entirely new game. That way I won't be angered by any further changes they make to the lore as previously established, because I suspect they will, and won't have inflated expectations that are then disappointed. The fact it has been 10 years in production overall is irrelevant really since we know that it has not been a smooth development cycle from start to finish but constant changes of direction and reboots.
The only thing I expect to be good after all this time is the actual narrative because the core team should have been working on that throughout and so should have been able to ensure that any plot holes were dealt with in the interim. I hope that also applies to the main characters in the game and they have real depth to them and a decent backstory. I'd rather have quality rather than quantity in that respect.
2) I don't mind if it is more action orientated provided we still get a decent story to follow. I have always been more interested in the story and role playing my character than the actual fighting, which is a means to an end for me. I just hope that it is not too different to what has gone before and that they again provide an easy setting that I can opt for if I can't cope! I usually play on normal but it is reassuring to know that I can tone it down a bit if I am struggling.
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Post by Absafraginlootly on Apr 18, 2024 6:59:29 GMT
Neither, why would I take that into account in my judgement of the game? Either I like it or I don't. Meant it in a "this was worth the wait/investment of time" (or not) way. Avengers Endgame was worth the investment of my time (to me). The final episode of Game of Thrones was not. Or put another away, if I have to wait a long, long time for something - I'm likely to want more from it than if I only wait a very short time. I guess I just don't think that way. Maybe if I actively had to spend time waiting - like in a line for a theme park ride. I'd want it to be worth the effort and boredom of standing there for ages. But i don't have to do anything like that to get a video game, so how long it took to make doesn't really effect how good I think it should be.
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Post by Gileadan on Apr 18, 2024 7:14:00 GMT
Good questions.
1. I will judge it based on how much production value and enjoyment I'm getting for my money. If I pay an AAA price, I expect an AAA experience. That means a decent amount of good quality content. Whether they produced that in two years of focused work or ten years of bumbling around and rebooting, well... those costs are for EA to bear.
2. As long as it's done well I don't mind. I love a good turn based RPG but I also greatly enjoy FromSoft style action spectacles. Whatever they pick between those two extremes, as long as the gameplay is good fun I'll be happy.
But I do have to say that the "grey warden fights two darkspawn and does a drop kick in full plate" leak looked pretty darn awful and I hope it's nothing like that.
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Post by fairdragon on Apr 18, 2024 8:06:40 GMT
1) Will you be judging the final product of Dragon Age Dreadwolf against the time that specific version of the game has had for development? Or the entirety of the time between the release of Trespasser and the release of Dreadwolf?2) Assuming Dreadwolf is the most action oriented entry in the series, is that automatically "points deducted"? 1) I will judge it based on the 3 games befor it and on how well the story and characters are written.
2) I only can hope that i will be able to play it. For me action RPGs are mostly not games i can play. It doesn't get points deducted, but it will be the question of if i buy it or not.
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Post by colfoley on Apr 18, 2024 8:09:12 GMT
1. I don't think we'll ever have enough context to give a good answer on that. Plus I have a few contradictory thoughts on the subject. First I did give Andromeda credit, at least when it came to its bugs, for its short and choatic dev cycle. That went into my thinking and helped me decide to be a little more lenient when it came to that specific thing. Though I must say I can't be certain how much it really moved the needle since I enjoyed Andromea's other story, writing, and role playing aspects as well to create a pretty good experience overall and bugs don't really bug me...heh...as long as they aren't too game breaking. However, on the other hand, this issue is not really something Dreadwolf is currently facing. Hem and haw and armchair quarterbacking maybe but it still seems that games usually take 3-4 years to make even today...and it'll be four years since the game transitioned into being single player only...at least I think that was 2020. Regardless though the point still stands also since, as I mentioned a long time ago now which I am quite sure a dev liked (probably Luke but who knows at this point), that the previous iterations of Dreadwolf could carry over into the next version of the game. Or they wouldn't be starting from scratch each time but taking the stuff that can fit and move it on into the next iteration. This is all to say that EA/ BioWare seems bound and determined to, whatever else, give them time to dev this game...a lot more then Andromeda ultimatley got. And if some of the common theories are correct around here they may've even delayed the game by a whole year, last year, to ensure they had the time. In contrast though is the principle 'its not the time that matters but the people' to borrow a phrase from Doctor Who. Gaming is replete with disaster stories both for long term and short term dev times, and also dev teams making the best of a bad situation to release a relatively comptent game. For short games we have games like Dragon Age 2 and Mass Effect Andromeda, not perfect no (but then what is) but then compared to Obsidian's efforts like Fallout New Vegas, which was an over ambitious mess, and KOTOR 2 it is clear that BioWare knew their limits. On the flip side you have games like Duke Nukem forever which was in dev for many, many years, sucked, and then games like DAO which was in dev for many many years, and didn't suck. All this to say it may be a bit of a fool's errand to judge the game by the time spent on it. It'll be good or bad. 2. On the issue of action mechanics I can give somewhat more of a defnitive answer. Considering though we actually don't have a lot of context on what a 'more actiony' Dragon Age game would look like in regards to Dreadwolf. We have vague dev comments, we have the leaks, we have our own opinions on the leaks, and that is it. In general I look forward to it though given A. each Dragon Age game has been better in terms of combat gameplay then the last thus the trend will hopefully continue and B. I do want to see the game adopt more 'action' real time/ player skill based mechanics from the start. Given that several bits of Dragon Age's gameplay loop bug the crap out of me since the beginning no matter how much I enjoy the series. Its an RPG we shouldn't be forced to play as our companion characters for starters. However I don't really think that BioWare is just going to clone God of War or the Witcher or Horizon or any other game. Nor, based on the leaks, are they going to give me everything that I want them to do either for my own personal wish fullfillment. What they are going to do is graft on and learn from elements of more modern Action games/ ARPGs to make a better experience. Like they did with Skyrim and Inquisition, which I'm not a big Skyrim fan but they did take elements of that game's gameplay and stick it into a blender with BioWare's RP, stories, and characters. Same here since we know, from the leaked pictures, that we will have guard. No other ARP really has a guard mechanic like in Inquisition which could be a huge game changer for the genre and overall loop, giving the player to have options of beefing their character up with ablative health.
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Post by fairdragon on Apr 18, 2024 8:15:19 GMT
Developers in my eyes need to stick to where the industry is moving to and away from so they can manage the sales I remember on BSN Prime that when it was announced Inquisition would have multiplayer, I was dead against it for the exact opposite of this stance I thought that they should stay SP only and fully concentrate on that because it would be a point of difference for them. But it's a fair point. Even as far back as DA2 David Gaider was lamenting players who were demanding Dragon Age Origins 2 didn't understand they were longing for games that didn't exist anymore. It's fair to say he couldn't have anticipated BG3 at that time, of course. I would say: One should strive for innovations, but not chase after Trents. And it is very important to give the series an image.
Because if you moving with the industry, at some point you have a series where you can no longer please any fan. And that is really bad.
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Post by fairdragon on Apr 18, 2024 8:19:48 GMT
1) At this stage I will treat it as an entirely new game. That way I won't be angered by any further changes they make to the lore as previously established, because I suspect they will, and won't have inflated expectations that are then disappointed. The fact it has been 10 years in production overall is irrelevant really since we know that it has not been a smooth development cycle from start to finish but constant changes of direction and reboots. That is cool that you can do it. I know that i will not be able to do this. And that will impacted my review of the game.
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Post by colfoley on Apr 18, 2024 8:29:52 GMT
To add a bit though a bit of an Overton Window effect going on here but I truly believe it...the game will probably not be that much like Origins, but the game will probably be very much like Inquisition.
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Post by Little Bengel on Apr 18, 2024 11:26:21 GMT
1) Development time, to me, will inevitably end up a second to how the final game feels once I'm playing it, but it'll still be a pretty relevant factor. With that in mind, I will be judging based on the version that started being developed around 2018, and based on the full SP shift in late 2020-early 2021. The total of time I had to wait is not that big a factor; I couldn't run Inquisition on my computer when it first came out, or on the laptop I've used for most of the past decade, so I've had a number of other things to look forward to in the meantime, like other games, some films and shows I've been looking forward to watching, stuff like that. Now? My current computer can very much run it, so I'm currently in the middle of enjoying my first proper Inquisition playthrough, just in time for the Dreadwolf marketing machine to start in earnest. 2) Even years ago the answer to that would be "no". I like the classic tactical mold well enough, to be sure, but it's not really a core feature of Dragon Age's identity to me. All I really want (assuming a continuation of DA past Dreadwolf) is for a proper system to be decided on as a baseline to build off of for future DA games (which, all things considered, is not so much a Dreadwolf concern as it is a future DA concern).
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Post by DragonKingReborn on Apr 18, 2024 20:20:57 GMT
I'm currently in the middle of enjoying my first proper Inquisition playthrough ....why you gotta flex on us like that? Jokes aside, that's kind of amazing. Have you been utterly and thoroughly spoiled on every surprise the game has?
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Post by Little Bengel on Apr 18, 2024 20:44:09 GMT
I'm currently in the middle of enjoying my first proper Inquisition playthrough ....why you gotta flex on us like that? Jokes aside, that's kind of amazing. Have you been utterly and thoroughly spoiled on every surprise the game has? Of course I have, at least on the story bits and most of the companion stuff. I wasn't expecting to get anything powerful enough to run the game anytime soon at the time, so I dove into playthroughs and other Youtube videos.
Not just for Inquisition, but for every other game I was interested in that came out between then and now, so same story with Andromeda.
Looking forward to Dreadwolf specifically because I will be able to dive into that one blind.
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Post by colfoley on Apr 18, 2024 20:57:45 GMT
....why you gotta flex on us like that? Jokes aside, that's kind of amazing. Have you been utterly and thoroughly spoiled on every surprise the game has? Of course I have, at least on the story bits and most of the companion stuff. I wasn't expecting to get anything powerful enough to run the game anytime soon at the time, so I dove into playthroughs and other Youtube videos.
Not just for Inquisition, but for every other game I was interested in that came out between then and now, so same story with Andromeda.
Looking forward to Dreadwolf specifically because I will be able to dive into that one blind.
how much do you even mind spoilers?
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Post by Little Bengel on Apr 18, 2024 21:02:13 GMT
Of course I have, at least on the story bits and most of the companion stuff. I wasn't expecting to get anything powerful enough to run the game anytime soon at the time, so I dove into playthroughs and other Youtube videos.
Not just for Inquisition, but for every other game I was interested in that came out between then and now, so same story with Andromeda.
Looking forward to Dreadwolf specifically because I will be able to dive into that one blind.
how much do you even mind spoilers? Depends on personal availability.
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Post by themikefest on Apr 18, 2024 21:19:26 GMT
1) Will you be judging the final product of Dragon Age Dreadwolf against the time that specific version of the game has had for development? Or the entirety of the time between the release of Trespasser and the release of Dreadwolf? No. What I will judge the game on is replay value. It's the number one reason why I have so many, better make that numerous, playthroughs for the ME trilogy, many playthroughs for the previous DA game's. If the game has replay value, which I believe it will, that other stuff won't matter.
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Post by celestielf on Apr 19, 2024 14:53:44 GMT
1. No. I will only judge development time by its actual development time for this version of the game. IMO it would be ridiculous to hold the devs to a "you had ten years to develop this game" when they actually didn't due to corporate shenanigans. The only thing I guess I want reflected by the time is the lore/basic story, since hopefully the writers had a lot of time to brainstorm and discuss before they had to start the "on paper" work.
2. It depends on whether I find the combat fun or frustrating, honestly. If it's fun, I don't care if it isn't tactical, even though I usually prefer tactical combat. (However, the combat in DAO is also my least favorite, so . . . I don't need that again).
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