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Post by Element Zero on Nov 14, 2016 20:11:33 GMT
There is no way to account for the vastly differences between the endings and no way to conflate them without mangling them to the point of irrelevance. The endings went scorched earth on the Milky Way. It's dead Jim. Then they should admit as much, rather than insisting it's all about "exploration" Why should they "admit" it? So that some upset people feel better? Mass Effect was supposed to be a trilogy, and Casey Hudson took no care to leave the setting intact when the OT concluded. (It almost seemed like he salted the earth so that ME would be finished for good, but we'll never know.) They made a marketing choice when they decided to shift to Andromeda. They had to preserve the IP, and save it from Casey's endings. They made a story choice when they decided to frame it as exploration. You have yet to play the game. You can't know that "reapers" won't be a reason that comes to light later in the story, once we are in Andromeda. I'm personally glad the reaper threat isn't front and center. I much prefer this exploration angle, not because I think Andromeda is the most obvious target for exploration, but because it's a clean break from the OT. Explanations for "why Andromeda?" can be provided in game, for those patient enough to wait.
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Post by Arcian on Nov 14, 2016 20:15:14 GMT
They don't need to pick a canon or do a reboot. All they have to do is to say the Crucible was used to defeat the Reapers and leave out the details. Except synthesis. Or refuse for that matter. People either have green TRON lines for some reason or they don't. They're either melted down into new Reapers or they aren't. There is no way to account for the vastly differences between the endings and no way to conflate them without mangling them to the point of irrelevance. The endings went scorched earth on the Milky Way. It's dead Jim. Did your translator glitch or something? I don't recall ever saying they should mash the endings together into some unrecognizable blob of bad writing. On the contrary, I suggested they should leave out the details and just go with "Shepard defeated the Reapers with the Crucible. The End." Considering the sequel doesn't even import ME3 saves I don't know why the endings should be in any way relevant to how they continue the franchise.
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Post by CrutchCricket on Nov 14, 2016 20:25:44 GMT
Except synthesis. Or refuse for that matter. People either have green TRON lines for some reason or they don't. They're either melted down into new Reapers or they aren't. There is no way to account for the vastly differences between the endings and no way to conflate them without mangling them to the point of irrelevance. The endings went scorched earth on the Milky Way. It's dead Jim. Did your translator glitch or something? I don't recall ever saying they should mash the endings together into some unrecognizable blob of bad writing. On the contrary, I suggested they should leave out the details and just go with "Shepard defeated the Reapers with the Crucible. The End." Considering the sequel doesn't even import ME3 saves I don't know why the endings should be in any way relevant to how they continue the franchise. Is it a sequel? Yes. Do people have green TRON lines or not? Are Reapers still around + asari Reaper, human Reaper etc.? These are not "details" you can just "leave out".
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Nov 14, 2016 20:46:50 GMT
Did your translator glitch or something? I don't recall ever saying they should mash the endings together into some unrecognizable blob of bad writing. On the contrary, I suggested they should leave out the details and just go with "Shepard defeated the Reapers with the Crucible. The End." Considering the sequel doesn't even import ME3 saves I don't know why the endings should be in any way relevant to how they continue the franchise. Is it a sequel? Yes. Do people have green TRON lines or not? Are Reapers still around + asari Reaper, human Reaper etc.? These are not "details" you can just "leave out". The TRON lines are easy to deal with. You can just explain that after a while they faded away, leaving no visible signs of Synthesis.
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Post by CrutchCricket on Nov 14, 2016 20:51:31 GMT
Is it a sequel? Yes. Do people have green TRON lines or not? Are Reapers still around + asari Reaper, human Reaper etc.? These are not "details" you can just "leave out". The TRON lines are easy to deal with. You can just explain that after a while they faded away, leaving no visible signs of Synthesis. So life was changed at a fundamental level with lolnewDNA, everyone is partly synthetic now with their minds on galaxy-wide wifi and crapping out iphones or however that all works yet they act the same as they did before? I don't buy it. Control and Destroy, those can be glossed over but not this. Go "art"...
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Nov 14, 2016 20:57:33 GMT
The TRON lines are easy to deal with. You can just explain that after a while they faded away, leaving no visible signs of Synthesis. So life was changed at a fundamental level with lolnewDNA, everyone is partly synthetic now with their minds on galaxy-wide wifi and crapping out iphones or however that all works yet they act the same as they did before? I don't buy it. Control and Destroy, those can be glossed over but not this. Go "art"... I was just addressing the TRON lines specifically. Those are easy to explain away. Though Synthesis as a whole was left pretty vague, with the Extended Cut looking towards what may be possible compared to what is reality, so I think there is plenty of wiggle room for good writers.
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Post by themikefest on Nov 14, 2016 20:58:51 GMT
They could forget the endings and make up a different ending to continue in the Milky Way.
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Post by CrutchCricket on Nov 14, 2016 21:08:25 GMT
I was just addressing the TRON lines specifically. Those are easy to explain away. Though Synthesis as a whole was left pretty vague, with the Extended Cut looking towards what may be possible compared to what is reality, so I think there is plenty of wiggle room for good writers. The TRON lines were short hand. The problem is synthesis is so out of left field and so divergent from anything else you can't possibly bridge the gap. Either everyone is some weird transcendent new thing in which case they certainly wouldn't act like they did before or they're not. And even if they do act recognizably, there's no way such a massive change would be relegated to one offhand mention. "Yeah all life in the galaxy got its DNA blended together. No biggie. Anyway, about that genophage...." - not gonna happen. So is refuse, for other more obvious reasons. It's a middle finger to the players, sure but technically it's a legit ending. Got its own space grandma and everything. They could forget the endings and make up a different ending to continue in the Milky Way. Err, no. That would be disregarding the endings which at this point no one wants. Well, no one except people who expect Bioware to personally apologize to them. Not to mention negating the biggest choice (no matter how dumb the setup) of the whole series.
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Post by themikefest on Nov 14, 2016 21:13:41 GMT
Err, yes I would want that. Why would I expect an apology from them? Would they be required to apologize? They negated other choices. Why not that one?
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Post by Andrew Lucas on Nov 14, 2016 21:14:12 GMT
The broker knew but was unconcerned. He figured it was either doomed to fail or even if it didn't, it wouldn't matter to his operations. It's not like he could've made use of it, a Yahg would be hard to miss. As lifeboats go, he probably had his own plans. TIM might've known but would be arrogant enought to see it as running away/a waste of time. He was so sure he could control the Reapers, leaving never even entered his mind. Sending some operatives aboard to plant the seeds of Cerberus is a likely possibility though. Edit: whoops, forgot about Hock. He was just a gun runner, fairly well off, but no evidence that he was a galactic player. Criminals were unlikely to be told about the arks. Next. It's like some of these people had to outright spit the "Ai" word at Shepard's face despite how nonsensical it would be in the context of their encounter.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Nov 14, 2016 21:15:43 GMT
I was just addressing the TRON lines specifically. Those are easy to explain away. Though Synthesis as a whole was left pretty vague, with the Extended Cut looking towards what may be possible compared to what is reality, so I think there is plenty of wiggle room for good writers. The TRON lines were short hand. The problem is synthesis is so out of left field and so divergent from anything else you can't possibly bridge the gap. Either everyone is some weird transcendent new thing in which case they certainly wouldn't act like they did before or they're not. And even if they do act recognizably, there's no way such a massive change would be relegated to one offhand mention. "Yeah all life in the galaxy got its DNA blended together. No biggie. Anyway, about that genophage...." - not gonna happen. So is refuse, for other more obvious reasons. It's a middle finger to the players, sure but technically it's a legit ending. Got its own space grandma and everything. Sure you can. It would be difficult sure, and nothing I would trust Bioware with anymore, but it could be done. And in reality after a while it would be a mention only since it is the new reality. Just saying. Countries don't talk about being part of countries they no longer are centuries ago much for example. I do agree that Refuse is not compatible with the other three, but I don't think that matters since it shouldn't count more than Shepard dying at the end of ME2. I mean it isn't even available to everyone. The future games would just follow a timeline where the Crucible was used by our cycle.
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Post by CrutchCricket on Nov 14, 2016 21:53:46 GMT
Err, yes I would want that. Why would I expect an apology from them? Would they be required to apologize? They negated other choices. Why not that one? "I've shot a man before, why wouldn't I shoot another?" There's your answer. Sure you can. It would be difficult sure, and nothing I would trust Bioware with anymore, but it could be done. And in reality after a while it would be a mention only since it is the new reality. Just saying. Countries don't talk about being part of countries they no longer are centuries ago much for example. I do agree that Refuse is not compatible with the other three, but I don't think that matters since it shouldn't count more than Shepard dying at the end of ME2. I mean it isn't even available to everyone. The future games would just follow a timeline where the Crucible was used by our cycle. This isn't just some historical event- this is all life in the galaxy fundamentally changing. There is simply no glossing over this fact. There is no portrayal that is compatible with both destroy/control and synthesis. Right after the change everyone would be exploring it, discussing it, whatever. As time goes on and they adapt to it (assuming adaptation isn't instant) technology, society, everything would skyrocket in a wildly divirging path. The rate of advancement would be astronomical compared to the galaxy in Destroy/Control. Twenty, even ten years down the road, the galaxy would be unrecognizable from what it was. That's what it would mean to properly portray the effects of this ending. To not do so is essentially to disregard it. Personally I think they should've allowed a dead Shepard import from ME2. Make the character you create in ME3 have a different name, or only ever be referred to by his rank (no need for anything else since no relationships would carry through), and go off a slightly worse than default playthrough with all expendable squadmates dead, the VS joining Hackett regardless and a few human token squadmates making up the difference so you have a full squad, with romance maybe being possible with only those people. Joker goes back to sullen and kinda dickish. It actually makes a lot more sense than Shepard- the notShepard is just an alliance grunt, no space Jesus or Spectre powers to bring into question why he's just an errand boy, no bullshit useless incarceration, it's justified why we're back to begging the council for help for Earth, FailLeng would actually be a threat (well, not gameplay wise but you know what I mean). But I digress. Dead Shepard was invalidated by ME3 but Refuse has yet to be invalidated by anything. I don't think it should either, anymore than any other ending. Precedent does not imply necessity.
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Post by Iakus on Nov 14, 2016 21:55:07 GMT
Then they should admit as much, rather than insisting it's all about "exploration" Why should they "admit" it? So that some upset people feel better? It beats "They're just upset because they don't get it." Admitting to a mistake is the first step in fixing it. I actually agree with this And what have they said or done that should give me any faith whatsoever in their choices? Why should I expect anything but more of the same? Go ahead, I'll wait. Except it's not a clean break. They maintained their "Art" as canon, and this group just wasn't around for the light show. They're trying to have their cake and it it too.
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Post by Iakus on Nov 14, 2016 22:01:58 GMT
This isn't just some historical event- this is all life in the galaxy fundamentally changing. There is simply no glossing over this fact. There is no portrayal that is compatible with both destroy/control and synthesis. Right after the change everyone would be exploring it, discussing it, whatever. As time goes on and they adapt to it (assuming adaptation isn't instant) technology, society, everything would skyrocket in a wildly divirging path. The rate of advancement would be astronomical compared to the galaxy in Destroy/Control. Twenty, even ten years down the road, the galaxy would be unrecognizable from what it was. That's what it would mean to properly portray the effects of this ending. To not do so is essentially to disregard it. Codex Entry: Commander Shepard "The First Human Spectre" is a fictional character and the subject of several interactive films published by Tethras Enterprises. These films were wildly popular due at least in part to the player being able to customize Shepard, from gender to appearance. Shepard could even have romances with several of the colorful cast of characters. The viewer was able to experience the adventures using Shepard as an avatar, making choices for Shepard and customizing the story to suit individual tastes
Over its five year run, numerous adventures where made available for Shepard's fans to experience. Though the central plot involved foiling the "Reapers" a mythological race of sentient AIs the films credited for the extinction of the Protheans.
Shepard's run ended with the so-called "Shepard Incident". The conclusion of the final film was considered so controversial that it caused an unprecedented uproar which even a rereleased ending could not quell.
Currently Tethras Enterprises has no plans to bring back Shepard for other stories. However, they are looking into the licensing Blasto for a new series.Fixed
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Post by Andrew Lucas on Nov 14, 2016 22:08:57 GMT
Then they should admit as much, rather than insisting it's all about "exploration" Why should they "admit" it? So that some upset people feel better?
Mass Effect was supposed to be a trilogy, and Casey Hudson took no care to leave the setting intact when the OT concluded. (It almost seemed like he salted the earth so that ME would be finished for good, but we'll never know.) They made a marketing choice when they decided to shift to Andromeda. They had to preserve the IP, and save it from Casey's endings. They made a story choice when they decided to frame it as exploration. You have yet to play the game. You can't know that "reapers" won't be a reason that comes to light later in the story, once we are in Andromeda. I'm personally glad the reaper threat isn't front and center. I much prefer this exploration angle, not because I think Andromeda is the most obvious target for exploration, but because it's a clean break from the OT. Explanations for "why Andromeda?" can be provided in game, for those patient enough to wait. Agreed. What year are we on? Oh, right. 2016. Could have fooled me.
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Post by Element Zero on Nov 14, 2016 22:12:58 GMT
Why should they "admit" it? So that some upset people feel better? It beats "They're just upset because they don't get it." Admitting to a mistake is the first step in fixing it. I actually agree with this And what have they said or done that should give me any faith whatsoever in their choices? Why should I expect anything but more of the same? Go ahead, I'll wait. Except it's not a clean break. They maintained their "Art" as canon, and this group just wasn't around for the light show. They're trying to have their cake and it it too. I've never particularly disagreed with any of your issues with this game or with the way BioWare handled Mass Effect 3. I experienced that whole thing, also. They should've handled that situation better in 2012. I disagree that they still owe us a "my bad", now. It's nearly 2017. A fresh start will be good for everyone in many respects, not only in regard to the game. Maybe you have no faith left in BioWare. I can understand. Something keeps you coming here everyday, though. You clearly still have a passion for Mass Effect. I think people just have a hard time reconciling this passion with the unrelenting skepticism. At some point, one or the other will win out, I guess. I hope you enjoy the game. I hate to see the franchise ruined for you.
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Post by Arcian on Nov 14, 2016 22:20:33 GMT
Did your translator glitch or something? I don't recall ever saying they should mash the endings together into some unrecognizable blob of bad writing. On the contrary, I suggested they should leave out the details and just go with "Shepard defeated the Reapers with the Crucible. The End." Considering the sequel doesn't even import ME3 saves I don't know why the endings should be in any way relevant to how they continue the franchise. Is it a sequel? Yes. A sequel that doesn't use save imports. I.e a sequel that doesn't rely on the plot variables of the previous games. I.e a sequel that doesn't in any way acknowledge any of the choices made by the player in the trilogy. Do people have green TRON lines or not? Are Reapers still around + asari Reaper, human Reaper etc.? That's not relevant because the sequel doesn't rely on save information from the trilogy. These are not "details" you can just "leave out". Of course they are. In fact, if the sequel doesn't import ME3 save files, they HAVE to be left out. Player choices are intrinsically non-canon. Not even Shepard's gender is accounted for in the lore, so the notion that the ending choices should be is completely absurd - otherwise, Mass Effect: Andromeda has to specify every single choice that could be made in Mass Effect 1. The only thing about the trilogy that is canon is that Shepard resolved the various conflicts that took place within it, including the overall conflict with the Reapers - what's not canon is how Shepard resolved the conflicts, like the RGB endings. And since every ending incorporates the Crucible and leads to the Reaper threat being ended, the only thing about the ending that can be considered canon is the fact that the Crucible was used by Shepard to end the Reaper threat. The RBG bullshit isn't canon and never will be, and is of absolutely no relevance to a sequel unless the sequel imports save data from ME3.
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Post by Iakus on Nov 14, 2016 22:21:59 GMT
Maybe you have no faith left in BioWare. I can understand. Something keeps you coming here everyday, though. You clearly still have a passion for Mass Effect. I think people just have a hard time reconciling this passion with the unrelenting skepticism. At some point, one or the other will win out, I guess. I hope you enjoy the game. I hate to see the franchise ruined for you. I come back because Bioware used to be great. And DAI, despite its flaws, was a decent-to-pretty-good game. And I'm curious about the mysterious third IP. But Mass Effect? They burned me too many times to trust them with that IP again. Not without CONCRETE proof that it's worth returning too. "You haven't played it yet" is not a good enough reason to trust that somehow they've managed to turn a corner. With ME3 I went in with pretty low expectations and was still bitterly disappointed. This time, I'm going in assuming the worst, and maybe this time I'll be pleasantly surprised.
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Post by CrutchCricket on Nov 14, 2016 22:28:02 GMT
It beats "They're just upset because they don't get it." Admitting to a mistake is the first step in fixing it. It was FIVE. YEARS. AGO. They aren't fixing shit. They are moving on. Expecting anything else at this point is delusional, I'm sorry. And what have they said or done that should give me any faith whatsoever in their choices? Why should I expect anything but more of the same? Go ahead, I'll wait. They are promising a fresh start, and going back to their roots of exploration. You should always take marketing with a grain of salt of course, even from companies that haven't mislead or gone back on their word. But beyond that, they are no longer shackled to one narrative in which they've written themselves into a corner, they no longer have to deal with unfinished threads from writers who have left (yet, future installments TBD) almost all the circumstances that gave rise to "art" are now different. You know this! Except it's not a clean break. They maintained their "Art" as canon, and this group just wasn't around for the light show. They're trying to have their cake and it it too. *Eat. And yeah. It is a clean break. And yeah, everybody wins. "Art" will never go away. Accept this (or continue bitching until the end of time.) Bioware keeps their "art", we get more (hopefully) "art"-free Mass Effect. Win-win. The "hopefully" referring to Supermac creating more "art", not currently existing "art" carrying over, since that's the point of moving in teh first place. Codex Entry: Commander Shepard "The First Human Spectre" is a fictional character and the subject of several interactive films published by Tethras Enterprises. These films were wildly popular due at least in part to the player being able to customize Shepard, from gender to appearance. Shepard could even have romances with several of the colorful cast of characters. The viewer was able to experience the adventures using Shepard as an avatar, making choices for Shepard and customizing the story to suit individual tastes
Over its five year run, numerous adventures where made available for Shepard's fans to experience. Though the central plot involved foiling the "Reapers" a mythological race of sentient AIs the films credited for the extinction of the Protheans.
Shepard's run ended with the so-called "Shepard Incident". The conclusion of the final film was considered so controversial that it caused an unprecedented uproar which even a rereleased ending could not quell.
Currently Tethras Enterprises has no plans to bring back Shepard for other stories. However, they are looking into the licensing Blasto for a new series.Fixed Are you taking the piss? You of all people would push a "it was all a dream movie" solution? Really? What happened to your choices and your Shepard mattering, what happened to the "essence of Mass Effect" or whatever? Yes, I'm sure it was all a dream movie would have gone over swimmingly....
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Post by Iakus on Nov 14, 2016 22:30:56 GMT
Are you taking the piss? You of all people would push a "it was all a dream movie" solution? Really? What happened to your choices and your Shepard mattering, what happened to the "essence of Mass Effect" or whatever? Yes, I'm sure it was all a dream movie would have gone over swimmingly.... My Shepard didn't matter. ME3 made that abundantly clear. And you said yourself, they're not going to change it now. So yeah, I'd rather he never existed to begin with than have him hijacked by "Art".
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Post by CrutchCricket on Nov 14, 2016 23:07:20 GMT
Of course they are. In fact, if the sequel doesn't import ME3 save files, they HAVE to be left out. Player choices are intrinsically non-canon. Not even Shepard's gender is accounted for in the lore, so the notion that the ending choices should be is completely absurd - otherwise, Mass Effect: Andromeda has to specify every single choice that could be made in Mass Effect 1. The only thing about the trilogy that is canon is that Shepard resolved the various conflicts that took place within it, including the overall conflict with the Reapers - what's not canon is how Shepard resolved the conflicts, like the RGB endings. And since every ending incorporates the Crucible and leads to the Reaper threat being ended, the only thing about the ending that can be considered canon is the fact that the Crucible was used by Shepard to end the Reaper threat. The RBG bullshit isn't canon and never will be, and is of absolutely no relevance to a sequel unless the sequel imports save data from ME3. Claims to care about Mass Effect. Misses the point of it entirely. Seems legit. The variables of player choice were never canonically undefined. There is no canon. If you didn't make a choice, a default choice was made for you but a choice was made. It was never canon more or less than any other choice but a choice was made. Ignoring a choice is essentially disregarding it. Or do you not remember all the bitching made on this very point about lesser choices like the rachni or who made councilor? Your suggestion isn't true to Mass Effect, it destroys the very ideal it's based on- that no player's canon will ever get overwritten. Good job. Tell me again about the "core" of Mass Effect. My Shepard didn't matter. ME3 made that abundantly clear. And you said yourself, they're not going to change it now. So yeah, I'd rather he never existed to begin with than have him hijacked by "Art". Uh-huh. So your answer is to go scorched earth just like Hudson and the "art" you despise so much. Good job. What's that thing about he who fights monsters...?
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