pixiqui
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights
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Post by pixiqui on Nov 9, 2016 21:26:54 GMT
I saw this really great theory on reddit and thought id share it. I know this was a really popular theory in the beginning and still kind of is, but this post is more thought out and detailed:
Link to OP: https://www.reddit.com/r/masseffect/comments/5bxeda/theory_alec_ryder_is_the_antagonist/
by ZwingaTron
Crazy theory, I know! But hear me out...
Ever since the first trailer (and the subsequent very small info dump that revealed he was not the main character) we've been shown this relatively enigmatic, quiet N7 who seems to be of the "Act first, explain later" type. By now we know who we're dealing with - Alec Ryder, a battle-hardened, veteran N7. Since then, the feeling that there's something off about him hasn't left me.
ME: Andromeda's focus is on exploration, on "being the alien" in this new galaxy. There are obviously going to be local races who will not take kindly to new, relatively agressive colonists such as us. And one of the most important jobs for the ones making first contact (the Pathfinders), will be to secure peace with these local races and to create a new, thriving home for the exiles from Milky Way. We are colonists with a couple of motherships - we simply don't have the strength to take on entire planets / clusters of aliens - peace seems to be the only option.
ME: Andromeda's focus is also apparently on the figure that is Alec Ryder, the human Pathfinder. This guy's featured on all of the cover art, has been in all of the video promos and is obviously central to the plot. We know he disappears for a long while, leaving the position of Pathfinder to us, his daughter / son.
Probable conflicts with Alec Ryder:
The Kett may be part of the central conflict - they are the first (hostile) contact for humans, after the human Ark is attacked and crash-lands. This dramatic memory will make many on the Ark see them only as a threat and as an enemy. Alec Ryder as the Pathfinder will be completely focused on protecting his species from the evidently-very-dangerous new galaxy, but we may choose to go against his warnings in order to try a more diplomatic approach with the Kett. Alec's quote from the new trailer: "But when we finally awoke, our dreams of piece were shattered."
From the trailers, we see that some of Andromeda's species have created technologies with untold new potential - will we exploit these new resources and thus create conflict, or will we leave them be? Some of the Milky Way species will prefer exploitation (our father included), others will want to focus on peace - we as Pathfinder can agree to exploit or disagree for an actual chance of peace.
One can go on in a similar fashion, but you can see the many potential conflicts. Mass Effect has been about peace-brokering since the beginning, this would take it to the next level.
MORE:
Avoids the "xenophobic radical alien antagonist" trope (trailers set up the Kett as main antagonists, but since when do trailers actually show the final plotline?)
Avoids the "it was Cerberus all along!" trope - instead we're really dealing with one of our own, an N7 (though Alec could technically still be involved with Cerberus)
Giant moral conflict - do you keep your family intact or sacrifice someone so important to you (your own father!) in order to create peace between the new and old races of the Andromeda galaxy?
Giant symbolical conflict - the N7 insignia has been a major symbol of the ME series so far, and has symbolized the protagonist/hero - now it's going to be worn by someone with malicious intent. Unexpected.
Alec Ryder is a war veteran and has seen plenty of action against aliens - he would seem like the type to tell us to "forget about negotiating with the Kett - strength will win this!"
Alec Ryder disappears for a long while, if the game makes it look like he has died, the twist of him being alive may be unexpected. And if he disapproves of what we have been doing during his exile or has discovered some shocking new alien revelation / technology / weapon, may want to use it to secure the position of the Milky Way exiles - through war.
Any of this will still work if he gets possessed by some aliens / alien tech and then turns on us. This would also soften the blow for Bioware who may otherwise have to face this - "ME:A allows you to violently fight with the protagonist's parent? Ban it in our country!"
Of course, he doesn't actually have to die, we would just need to stop him - or join him on his quest, if you're Renegade enough.
TL;DR Alec Ryder is the final antagonist - nobody is going to be expecting to fight their father; he's an N7 - badass boss fight; we will want peace with the locals, he will not.
I think its possible bioware could go this route with the story, whether or not this theory is accurate its still a pretty interesting read.
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Post by shechinah on Nov 9, 2016 21:40:40 GMT
Drat, I wish I had my old post where I wrote about this. I've been holding to this theory as well of Alec Ryder becoming an antagonist since he first appeared and when he was still nameless. Oh well, I'll see if I can scavenge or re-create it. That'll take some time. Here is part of why I think Alec Ryder is intended to have a larger role than merely a character that goes missing or dies early on. Game Informer @gameinformer .@todd_McFarlane tackles Mass Effect Andromeda with new Ryder figure. bit.ly/2fT19L8 Given the prominence Alec Ryder has had in promotional materials and now that he's recieving merchandise items like this, I'm keeping to my theory that he'll remain a reoccuring character and possibly an antagonistic force although assumed missing, dead or captured. I just cannot see him dying early on or not being around in some form. It seems like he's build up with the implication that he'll have a lasting impact on players.
True, prominence is promotional material is sometimes done to deliberately mislead an audience to make something like a character death more of a surprise but making action figures is something else and something that I don't see done for that sort of thing.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights
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Post by pixiqui on Nov 9, 2016 21:55:07 GMT
Drat, I wish I had my old post where I wrote about this. I've been holding to this theory as well of Alec Ryder becoming an antagonist since he first appeared and when he was still nameless. Oh well, I'll see if I can scavenge or re-create it. That'll take some time. Here is part of why I think Alec Ryder is intended to have a larger role than merely a character that goes missing or dies early on. Given the prominence Alec Ryder has had in promotional materials and now that he's recieving merchandise items like this, I'm keeping to my theory that he'll remain a reoccuring character and possibly an antagonistic force although assumed missing, dead or captured. I just cannot see him dying early on or not being around in some form. It seems like he's build up with the implication that he'll have a lasting impact on players.
True, prominence is promotional material is sometimes done to deliberately mislead an audience to make something like a character death more of a surprise but making action figures is something else and something that I don't see done for that sort of thing.
yeah in the first trailers he seemed like a more ominous character, now he seems like a veteran hero kind of character to me. I think they're definitely intentionally trying to throw us off from who he really is, another thing i've been thinking about is mac walters did say that there is some sort of secret about the ryder family that the the player can find out , it's all very fishy  |
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Post by Ahriman on Nov 9, 2016 22:00:29 GMT
Drat, I wish I had my old post where I wrote about this. I've been holding to this theory as well of Alec Ryder becoming an antagonist since he first appeared and when he was still nameless. Oh well, I'll see if I can scavenge or re-create it. That'll take some time. Here is part of why I think Alec Ryder is intended to have a larger role than merely a character that goes missing or dies early on. yeah in the first trailers he seemed like a more ominous character, now he seems like a veteran hero kind of character to me. I think they're definitely intentionally trying to throw us off from who he really is, another thing i've been thinking about is mac walters did say that there is some sort of secret about the ryder family that the the player can find out , it's all very fishy He is not our father? Do you remember exact quote? It seems I've missed this one. |
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Post by shechinah on Nov 9, 2016 22:09:13 GMT
I found one of my posts. Please note it was made long before we really had any information. Assuming that the N7 guy is actually an antagonist, I'm getting here a similar vibe to how Bioware handled the grey wardens in DA:I. The act of shitting on a symbol that was important to a protagonist from a previous game. Maybe I'm reading too much into it, but it does seem part of an overall attitude that pushes moral relativism. (I dislike preachy writers, not necessarily the actual idea) This is a bit lengthier than I intended: While I do disagree about the handling of the Grey Wardens, I can still understand the criticism and your worry but I don't think you need to worry about this. I believe that the Mass Effect team prevously has basically acknowledged that they know how much the N7 insignia means to a number of Mass Effect fans and how it is seen by them as an important icon for the franchise. If the N7 is an antagonist in the game then I don't think the writers intends to portray everyone or even the majority who've earned a proficiency in N program or even the program itself negatively. If one or more N7s are in the role as antagonists then I don't necessarily consider that in itself to be the writers mishandling the N7. Now if all of the N7s act like black and red versions of Cerberus or the writers forget their own lore about the N7 then that would, of course, be something I'd consider an atrocious mishandling. The latter especially considering there's not that much to remember about the N program. If one or even a group of the N7s act xenophobic then I wouldn't consider that to be a mishandling since we know Kai Leng completed all of the Ns including the N7. If there is a screening process then it either does not scrutinize those aspects of a person's character or some simply slips through. I speculate it is likely the former due to how a somewhat xenophobic attitude towards aliens was apparently a result of the First Contact War so many including a number of veterans likely see it as normal. TL:DR - I think it basically comes to the writers providing a counter-balance so to speak; if some of the N7 are basically Ceberus but black and red then there should be other N7s that we meet who show that the former group is not indicative of the N in its entirety. Note: I sincerely hope the N7 is not like Kai Leng. I'd rather they be sympathic in their motivation: they might steal technology from the Andromeda races but they'll do it because they believe it is necessary for the survival of the Milky races. Basically, a character that does what they do because of percieved necessity rather than spite or desiring superiority for them or their race. We've had pro-human antagonists; now I'd like something else. I feel an antagonist that is motivated by necessity could help show the desperation and danger there sometimes lie in the colonisation of strange new land especially when returning to old land is not an option. We can have a sympathic antagonist and we can have a villanous antagonist in the same story; the sympathic antagonist can exemplify desperation and the villanous antagonist can exemplify danger. If we go by the supposed leak then there is a seemingly villanous faction of aliens and a non-villanous faction of aliens so this would not go right over into Unfortunate Implications. I think Alec Ryder would be a sympathic character for the reasons that I've mentioned above: a feeling of necessity and desperation. This is even more so now that we know the ARK ship we and he are on become lost and separated from the other ARKs. He may slowly become obsessed with chasing down the vaults at increasingly higher cost because he believes it can make the difference and justifies the heightening costs with the desperation of their situation.
It might be that he also believes that the vaults will give them a necessary edge against the Khett and that he refuses to believe that there is any longevity in a truce or peace made with the Khett. He may have fought in the First Contact War so it could be that hostile encounters with the Khett and the stakes at hand is reminding him of that war.
He may be the villain that Shinobu claimed was inspired by Saren. Saren had encounters wherein he and Shepard spoke and where Saren tried to convince Shepard of the necessity of what he was doing.
Honestly, I think I'd be a bit disappointed if he dosen't become an antagonist because I see a lot of potential in that, that I'd love to see explored.
Note: Given that they wanted us to be able to emphathise with them, I think the Khett might become allies, reluctant or otherwise, at some point in the game. Perhaps because of something in a vault that they don't want released and we find really shouldn't be released? Some doors are best left closed?
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights
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Post by pixiqui on Nov 9, 2016 22:10:51 GMT
yeah in the first trailers he seemed like a more ominous character, now he seems like a veteran hero kind of character to me. I think they're definitely intentionally trying to throw us off from who he really is, another thing i've been thinking about is mac walters did say that there is some sort of secret about the ryder family that the the player can find out , it's all very fishy He is not our father? Do you remember exact quote? It seems I've missed this one. I don't think it was mac walters it was gameinformer, here's the quote: "Regardless of whether you choose Scott or Sara Ryder as your hero, you'll still be hearing plenty from the other sibling. Picking one twin doesn't mean the other ceases to exist – they both play significant roles in the story. In fact, there's a mystery tied to the Ryder family that players can discover as the game progresses" Full article where its stated: www.gameinformer.com/b/news/archive/2016/11/07/meet-mass-effect-andromedas-leading-voice-cast.aspxUnder the sara ryder bit |
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Post by Petroshenko on Nov 9, 2016 22:20:01 GMT
Getting major Assassin's Creed 3 flashbacks here, not only with potential villain "twist" but also how much Bioware focuses on Daddy Ryder, along with the fanbase. That's why I'm not really keen on the whole thing. It's way too easy to make the mentor/villain figure have an instant "easy" appeal compared to main protagonist.
ANd really, this is suppoused to be a story of Scott/Sara. I don't want the whole thing to revolve around Alec
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights
Posts: 105 Likes: 330
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Post by pixiqui on Nov 9, 2016 22:23:48 GMT
I found one of my posts. Please note it was made long before we really had any information. This is a bit lengthier than I intended: While I do disagree about the handling of the Grey Wardens, I can still understand the criticism and your worry but I don't think you need to worry about this. I believe that the Mass Effect team prevously has basically acknowledged that they know how much the N7 insignia means to a number of Mass Effect fans and how it is seen by them as an important icon for the franchise. If the N7 is an antagonist in the game then I don't think the writers intends to portray everyone or even the majority who've earned a proficiency in N program or even the program itself negatively. If one or more N7s are in the role as antagonists then I don't necessarily consider that in itself to be the writers mishandling the N7. Now if all of the N7s act like black and red versions of Cerberus or the writers forget their own lore about the N7 then that would, of course, be something I'd consider an atrocious mishandling. The latter especially considering there's not that much to remember about the N program. If one or even a group of the N7s act xenophobic then I wouldn't consider that to be a mishandling since we know Kai Leng completed all of the Ns including the N7. If there is a screening process then it either does not scrutinize those aspects of a person's character or some simply slips through. I speculate it is likely the former due to how a somewhat xenophobic attitude towards aliens was apparently a result of the First Contact War so many including a number of veterans likely see it as normal. TL:DR - I think it basically comes to the writers providing a counter-balance so to speak; if some of the N7 are basically Ceberus but black and red then there should be other N7s that we meet who show that the former group is not indicative of the N in its entirety. Note: I sincerely hope the N7 is not like Kai Leng. I'd rather they be sympathic in their motivation: they might steal technology from the Andromeda races but they'll do it because they believe it is necessary for the survival of the Milky races. Basically, a character that does what they do because of percieved necessity rather than spite or desiring superiority for them or their race. We've had pro-human antagonists; now I'd like something else. I feel an antagonist that is motivated by necessity could help show the desperation and danger there sometimes lie in the colonisation of strange new land especially when returning to old land is not an option. We can have a sympathic antagonist and we can have a villanous antagonist in the same story; the sympathic antagonist can exemplify desperation and the villanous antagonist can exemplify danger. If we go by the supposed leak then there is a seemingly villanous faction of aliens and a non-villanous faction of aliens so this would not go right over into Unfortunate Implications. i agree that's definitely seems possible! Really awesome post!  |
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Post by shechinah on Nov 9, 2016 22:25:52 GMT
Getting major Assassin's Creed 3 flashbacks here, not only with potential villain "twist" but also how much Bioware focuses on Daddy Ryder, along with the fanbase. That's why I'm not really keen on the whole thing. It's way too easy to make the mentor/villain figure have an instant "easy" appeal compared to main protagonist. ANd really, this is suppoused to be a story of Scott/Sara. I don't want the whole thing to revolve around Alec It is also suppose to be a personal story and so Papa being an antagonist would fit with that. I don't see him as being the antagonist that we'd spend the most time with: he'd appear occasionally but it'd be the Khett and other dangers that we'd face the most. Papa would be a part of the story but it would not revolve around him. |
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Post by Petroshenko on Nov 9, 2016 22:34:00 GMT
Getting major Assassin's Creed 3 flashbacks here, not only with potential villain "twist" but also how much Bioware focuses on Daddy Ryder, along with the fanbase. That's why I'm not really keen on the whole thing. It's way too easy to make the mentor/villain figure have an instant "easy" appeal compared to main protagonist. ANd really, this is suppoused to be a story of Scott/Sara. I don't want the whole thing to revolve around Alec It is also suppose to be a personal story and so Papa being an antagonist would fit with that. I don't see him as being the antagonist that we'd spend the most time with: he'd appear occasionally but it'd be the Khett and other dangers that we'd face the most. Papa would be a part of the story but it would not revolve around him. Stories about family member ain't automatically personal just because of biological connection, it's the common trap many movies, games or novels fall into. Bioware fell into similar trap at the start of ME3, thinking that just becuase the Catalyst is a kid we would instantly care about his death in Earth Vancouver prologue. |
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Post by shechinah on Nov 9, 2016 22:38:27 GMT
It is also suppose to be a personal story and so Papa being an antagonist would fit with that. I don't see him as being the antagonist that we'd spend the most time with: he'd appear occasionally but it'd be the Khett and other dangers that we'd face the most. Papa would be a part of the story but it would not revolve around him. Stories about family member ain't automatically personal just because of biological connection, it's the common trap many movies, games or novels fall into. Bioware fell into similar trap at the start of ME3, thinking that just becuase the Catalyst is a kid we would instantly care about his death in Earth Vancouver prologue. I agree completely with you. It does seem, however, like they've learned that lesson since, according to Shinobu, you can optionally interact with the sibling character and build a rapport. They also had feedback about Dragon Age: II's family to take into consideration. This is why I'm optimistic. Cautiously optimistic but optimistic nonetheless. |
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Post by Link"Guess"ski on Nov 9, 2016 22:46:58 GMT
I love when fanbases make theories out of something that's completely obvious. JUST LISTEN TO HIS VOICE! xD Of course he's evil. He can't help it!
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Post by capn233 on Nov 9, 2016 22:53:23 GMT
^Hopefully he at least teaches us how to use a knife before going rogue:
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Post by KirkyX on Nov 9, 2016 23:30:04 GMT
I found one of my posts. Please note it was made long before we really had any information. I think Alec Ryder would be a sympathic character for the reasons that I've mentioned above: a feeling of necessity and desperation. This is even more so now that we know the ARK ship we and he are on become lost and separated from the other ARKs. He may slowly become obsessed with chasing down the vaults at increasingly higher cost because he believes it can make the difference and justifies the heightening costs with the desperation of their situation.
It might be that he also believes that the vaults will give them a necessary edge against the Khett and that he refuses to believe that there is any longevity in a truce or peace made with the Khett. He may have fought in the First Contact War so it could be that hostile encounters with the Khett and the stakes at hand is reminding him of that war.
He may be the villain that Shinobu claimed was inspired by Saren. Saren had encounters wherein he and Shepard spoke and where Saren tried to convince Shepard of the necessity of what he was doing.
Honestly, I think I'd be a bit disappointed if he dosen't become an antagonist because I see a lot of potential in that, that I'd love to see explored.
Note: Given that they wanted us to be able to emphathise with them, I think the Khett might become allies, reluctant or otherwise, at some point in the game. Perhaps because of something in a vault that they don't want released and we find really shouldn't be released? Some doors are best left closed?  I rather like this theory--he'd be the Ransom to our Janeway. |
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Post by Sartoz on Nov 10, 2016 0:05:55 GMT
,.-~*´¨¯¨`*·~-.¸-(_MEA_)-,.-~*´¨¯¨`*·~-.¸
From what I read and understood, that is not the case at all.
Drak's loyalty mission clearly goes after the human thief that stole the Krogan's colony ship. We have a pic of him in the bridge from the first video and then another where Drak drops him off a cliff. There is your human antagonist. Also, take a look at who is next to Drak. Notice the colours of the armour. It's not a Pathfinder armour at all.
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Post by hydroflame20 on Nov 10, 2016 0:15:20 GMT
Sounds like it cookies and milk to me oh yummy yummy.
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Post by shechinah on Nov 12, 2016 1:32:49 GMT
I'm still looking at the "Ghost Rider in the Sky" song. I know I may attribute more meaning to it than there is but I can't help but speculate. I've developed a couple of theories. One theory has me wondering if it may be about obsession since a line in the song implies that riders will never catch the herd and so will ride forever in the sky with their chase never ending. "'Cause they've got to ride forever on that range up in the sky"I can't help but wonder if the herd is Remnant technology. The Milky Way has in large part depended upon technology that they've found such as the cache on Mars. What if this belief persist in Andromeda? That if they can find this Remnant technology then their troubles will be over. This belief that the technology will make things better and so the pursuit of it grows obsessive to the point of actually damaging efforts to make things better and solve problems like, say, by compromising relations with the Khett or even by becoming increasingly more willing to sacrifice their own because they believe the ends will prove to have justified the means. I wonder if a large point of the game will turn out to be that the Milkies need to move away from this dependence and belief: basically, they need to learn to do things themselves so they don't repeat the mistake of the past. The riders are people who've grown so obsessed with catching this devil's heard that they can no longer cease their chase despite knowing what it has lead them to. "Then cowboy change your ways today or with us you will ride. Trying to catch the devil's herd, across these endless skies" I'm just putting it out there: I think this is what might happen with Alec Ryder. |
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Post by ravenous on Nov 12, 2016 1:47:29 GMT
I think the Khet will be the main bad guy like Saren was the main bad guy of Shepard in the first ME game, and Alec will be more like Ambassador Udina
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Post by Andrew Waples on Nov 12, 2016 13:06:23 GMT
I tend to agree, I mean he is on the cover art. The majority of BioWare's cover art has had to something with the player character, this is completely different. Also, the fact that he is watching a ship being blown up as well. I was surprised that the twins aren't even on the cover at all. Now this could just be a the deluxe edition cover art, but it is interesting. Especially, considering if he is a shoot first, ask questions later kind of personality, especially after landing on foreign soil.
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Post by traks on Nov 12, 2016 13:24:24 GMT
I think Alec Ryder will be the protagonist of at least one of the books.
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Post by Walter Black on Nov 12, 2016 16:37:23 GMT
If Bioware really is going for more nuanced role playing choices in Andromeda, then Alec Ryder should be an optional antagonist. Regardless if Papa Ryder is genuinely heroic, acts out of desperate pragmatism, or is full on human first Renegade, it should be the player's choice if we want to oppose him or not. I have no patience for RPGs that railroad players into fighting friends and family, with no other options, all because of "drama"  . Though part of me feels sorry for Clancy Brown being usually typecast as the antagonist. Let the poor guy be the good guy this time, he's earned it dammit!  |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 12, 2016 16:43:21 GMT
,.-~*´¨¯¨`*·~-.¸-(_MEA_)-,.-~*´¨¯¨`*·~-.¸ Drak's loyalty mission clearly goes after the human thief that stole the Krogan's colony ship. We have a pic of him in the bridge from the first video and then another where Drak drops him off a cliff. There is your human antagonist.
Sartoz, have you considered the possibility that the human being dropped by the krogan is a Cerberus operative? ------ Regarding Alec Ryder's role, it should be our Ryder's decision whether to side with or oppose 'our' father -and the choices should present a serious moral dilemma with serious consequences that affects the AI project, the other MW races, and the Andromeda aliens/factions we must deal with. Then, perhaps at the end we can either salvage dad or defeat him. I dunno, this is too much of a story trope as it's been done so many times before. We do know that there will be family issues, so some serious decisions will have to be made. I'm still not up to speed on all that Mac Walters has said in his interviews. |
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Post by Sartoz on Nov 12, 2016 17:02:53 GMT
[object Object]
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We destroy them or they destroy us.
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by bshep on Nov 12, 2016 17:42:27 GMT
Maybe Alec is one of the few person inside the project who knows about the Reaper threat. That could make him go full "renegade" to complete his mission whatever the cost because he would know that those people inside the Ark are maybe the last humans alive in the universe.
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Post by shechinah on Nov 12, 2016 17:51:15 GMT
,.-~*´¨¯¨`*·~-.¸-(_MEA_)-,.-~*´¨¯¨`*·~-.¸
From what I read and understood, that is not the case at all.
Drak's loyalty mission clearly goes after the human thief that stole the Krogan's colony ship. We have a pic of him in the bridge from the first video and then another where Drak drops him off a cliff. There is your human antagonist. Also, take a look at who is next to Drak. Notice the colours of the armour. It's not a Pathfinder armour at all.
We don't know if that is Drak's loyalty mission and it has been implied by the team that Ryder will be able to acquire papa's armor so if this is Drak's loyalty mission then it could very well be Ryder in that armor. |
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