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Post by chris2365 on Nov 10, 2016 4:57:48 GMT
So, a thought came into my head recently, though I am sure I am not the first to think of this.
Now that we are in Andromeda, we should have weapons that do not rely on thermal clips like in ME2 and ME3. Instead, it makes much more sense for the Andromeda Initiative to bring along ME1-style weapons, which fire until they overheat, and then need cooling.
We are no longer in the Milky Way galaxy, where everyone used thermal clips and dropped plenty extra on the battlefield for Shepard and company to restock on ammo. In Andromeda, our enemies will surely have their own unique weapon system. We will no doubt be isolated in our exploration of brand new star systems, making it illogical to be reliant on supply lines and thermal clips.
Of course, Bioware can probably wipe all those concerns away by simply stating that we can manufacture our own ammo, but then that opens up another problem. Obviously, we will be unable to replenish ammo in the field, so we will probably have to make return trips to the Tempest or any bases we have established on uncharted worlds to restock on ammo. DAI had a similar system with regards to its potions, and while it worked decently there, I feel like it would simply add extra steps to solve a problem that shouldn't even be there to begin with.
In Andromeda, we are explorers, not a military force. It makes sense to have weapons that reflect this new identity, one which focuses on versatility, reliability and ease of use, rather than just all out stopping power. With that in mind, thermal clips are probably the less ideal, from both a lore and a real-life standpoint, for the reasons stated above.
In the end, all this won't matter if the gameplay is fun, and ME3's was certainly one of the best of the series. Then again, Bioware keeps saying that MEA will push the franchise into new directions, and an overheating system would certainly make it fresh and unique compared to other third person shooters, so it's definitely food for thought.
What do you guys think?
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Post by Element Zero on Nov 10, 2016 4:59:53 GMT
You had me at the thread's title.
Yes, ditching clips absolutely makes in-game sense. They could keep the reload shooter gameplay mechanic by "skinning it" as venting the weapon's internal heat sink. A quick animation, similar in length to the appropriate reload sequence, and we're ready to go. Different weapons produce differing levels of heat per shot, so no need to change the shots per clip mechanic, other than in name.
Real world logic, appealing old school lore, and gameplay needs are all met.
Edit: I've campaigned pretty hard for this, off and on, for a long time. It would be a dream come true for me to see this implemented in MEA. I'm just a nerd like that.
Also, it's good to see you here on the new BSN.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 10, 2016 5:08:16 GMT
Maybe they could use the flashlight system from Alan Wake (I.e. Slow rechargeable battery. Slap a new battery if you want a fast charge.)
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Post by Element Zero on Nov 10, 2016 5:14:30 GMT
Maybe they could use the flashlight system from Alan Wake (I.e. Slow rechargeable battery. Slap a new battery if you want a fast charge.) I haven't played that, but it sounds bad for sustained firefights. Is it something that would allow heavy fighting, as seen in ME1-3? I don't think there's much need for a new mechanic. The system in ME2 and ME3 was pretty good. It provided needed game balance, and familiarity for gamers who play shooters. (That is important, as much as BioWare fans like to pretend only BSNers matter.) The existing mechanic be reskinned, removing the clips (and clip drops) by building an internal, perpetual "clip/heat sink" into the weapons. One never ran out of ammo, anyway, with those omnipresent clips on every battlefield in the galaxy. The alien tech, perhaps, could work on an entirely different system. More power at the cost of limited ammo? |
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Post by Sartoz on Nov 10, 2016 5:28:49 GMT
,.-~*´¨¯¨`*·~-.¸-(_MEA_)-,.-~*´¨¯¨`*·~-.¸
Unfortunately, we need to be more than just explorers. The military aspect is quite necessary. It's the hight of stupidity to go to another galaxy to colonise a new home for humanity and not be prepared for the worst. That is extremely bad planning, imo.
The Neogaf link below explains the combat mechanics in more details = you need to be prepared. www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=223412495&postcount=1 |
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Post by KaiserShep on Nov 10, 2016 5:34:41 GMT
I'd love to see weapon overheating return, but I'm curious as to how that would play out with the multiplayer aspect of the game.
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Post by Element Zero on Nov 10, 2016 5:38:43 GMT
,.-~*´¨¯¨`*·~-.¸-(_MEA_)-,.-~*´¨¯¨`*·~-.¸
Unfortunately, we need to be more than just explorers. The military aspect is quite necessary. It's the hight of stupidity to go to another galaxy to colonise a new home for humanity and not be prepared for the worst. That is extremely bad planning, imo.
The Neogaf link below explains the combat mechanics in more details = you need to be prepared. www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=223412495&postcount=1The argument against thermal clips is very much a military argument. Eliminating supply lines without losing combat effectiveness is a massive win. The combat mechanics breakdown mentions nothing about weapons. That could be considered indicative in itself of no change, in that any change may have been noted. Maybe not, though, if they implemented a change like I suggested. My idea clears the silly clutter from the battlefields, and maintains the positives of the clip reload mechanics. It could be that struggling with ammo supplies is part of the experience and game balance of MEA. We can't know until we play it, or learn more from the devs. Still, I'll never love those clips and the eyesore they create on the battlefield. |
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Post by Element Zero on Nov 10, 2016 5:39:37 GMT
I'd love to see weapon overheating return, but I'm curious as to how that would play out with the multiplayer aspect of the game. Is running out of ammo a common occurance in MP? |
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Post by KaiserShep on Nov 10, 2016 5:43:26 GMT
I'd love to see weapon overheating return, but I'm curious as to how that would play out with the multiplayer aspect of the game. Is running out of ammo a common occurance in MP? It does happen, especially on higher difficulty where everything is a huge bullet sponge. |
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Post by Element Zero on Nov 10, 2016 5:48:51 GMT
Is running out of ammo a common occurance in MP? It does happen, especially on higher difficulty where everything is a huge bullet sponge. That could influence their decision, then. I never jumped into MP. I may do so with MEA. Admittedly, it will never be as important to me as SP. I think its mechanics should be drawn from SP, not the other way around. If they believe MP will be the moneymaker, though, they'd be silly not to carefully consider everything that could affect the MP experience in any way. Do you think infinite ammo, with a reload mechanic, would drastically alter the MP experience? I guess it might be somewhat pointless to guess, since the gameplay would be rebalanced to account for any such gameplay changes. |
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chris2365
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Post by chris2365 on Nov 10, 2016 5:59:28 GMT
It does happen, especially on higher difficulty where everything is a huge bullet sponge. That could influence their decision, then. I never jumped into MP. I may do so with MEA. Admittedly, it will never be as important to me as SP. I think its mechanics should be drawn from SP, not the other way around. If they believe MP will be the moneymaker, though, they'd be silly not to carefully consider everything that could affect the MP experience in any way. Do you think infinite ammo, with a reload mechanic, would drastically alter the MP experience? I guess it might be somewhat pointless to guess, since the gameplay would be rebalanced to account for any such gameplay changes. Yeah, ME3's MP was pretty balanced when it came to weapons. The ammo count in a weapon was big factor in its usability. For example, the Harrier is still considered to be one of the best assault rifles in the game, but the compromise is that you only get 2 and half clips of ammo before needing to head to an ammo box. They seem to be talking a lot about unifying the gameplay experience in both single player and multi player for MEA. While that could be good, they have to make sure the system is adapted to both. For example, in multi-player, it's fine to have weapons with low ammo, since an ammo box is always relatively close. That might not be the case when exploring cave systems on uncharted worlds in single-player. They will definitely have to be mindful of that balance. (And thanks for the welcome earlier. I've been here since these new forums opened, but I've always been more of a lurker than a poster, even back on BSN Prime. Still, its always good to contribute and discuss ideas. That's the point of forums  ) |
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Post by RageUnderFire on Nov 10, 2016 6:02:44 GMT
Get it back.
Gameplay with overheating weapons is intense. You must fire intelligently
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Post by zipzap2000 on Nov 10, 2016 6:07:44 GMT
Always wondered why guns would allow you to overheat them in the first place. Would make more sense to have a system that restricts the rate of fire and prevents that from happening altogether, venting small amounts of heat as shots are fired. If anything you would have a cooling system that could be fired off occasionally for increased rate of fire.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 10, 2016 6:50:49 GMT
Maybe they could use the flashlight system from Alan Wake (I.e. Slow rechargeable battery. Slap a new battery if you want a fast charge.) I haven't played that, but it sounds bad for sustained firefights. Is it something that would allow heavy fighting, as seen in ME1-3? I don't think there's much need for a new mechanic. The system in ME2 and ME3 was pretty good. It provided needed game balance, and familiarity for gamers who play shooters. (That is important, as much as BioWare fans like to pretend only BSNers matter.) The existing mechanic be reskinned, removing the clips (and clip drops) by building an internal, perpetual "clip/heat sink" into the weapons. One never ran out of ammo, anyway, with those omnipresent clips on every battlefield in the galaxy. The alien tech, perhaps, could work on an entirely different system. More power at the cost of limited ammo? Call of Duty: Infinite Warfare had a similar system with the energy-based weapons. There is a weapon mod that allowed you to replenish ammo in your current magazine in the similar vein as the 3D printer assault rifle (IMR) from Advanced Warfare. If you needed a fast reload, you could do so by reloading the gun, and refill your ammo reserve at an ammo crate. That system is actually doable. Whether or not BioWare actually follows up on that is a different story. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 10, 2016 7:10:55 GMT
I see what the OP is saying and from a lore perspective this might make a lot of sense. I do however hear the "lazy gamer" coming out in this argument.The one that simply cannot be bothered hunting for ammo or doesnt want to have to think about it.
Having recently played through the trilogy again, I have to say my personal experience was that firefights were more intense when ammo was involved. Now I know that ammo wasnt exactly scarce but it was still more intense having to make a mad dash for ammo while being shot at than ducking behind cover waiting for your weapon to cool down.
I think they made the right decision in Inquisition with the camps. It was too easy in the other games to be able to spam healing potions and stick them in a chest for when a boss fight came up and then chug them one after the other.
Now he is right in the sense that we are in an alien world, however I'm pretty sure that before they invented energy weapons they might have also used standard balistic weapons too. I'm pretty sure that when the Americas were landed on by the Spanish they brought lots of ammmunition with them. Just my 2p worth.
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Post by CursedPanther on Nov 10, 2016 7:11:36 GMT
Always wondered why guns would allow you to overheat them in the first place. Would make more sense to have a system that restricts the rate of fire and prevents that from happening altogether, venting small amounts of heat as shots are fired. If anything you would have a cooling system that could be fired off occasionally for increased rate of fire. I still remember there used to be an assault rifle model back in ME1 that you can install the best heat sink and frictionless rail so that it never overheats. Probably will never happen again but we need more info on the new weapon system in order to confirm. |
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Post by Element Zero on Nov 10, 2016 7:43:14 GMT
I see what the OP is saying and from a lore perspective this might make a lot of sense. I do however hear the "lazy gamer" coming out in this argument.The one that simply cannot be bothered hunting for ammo or doesnt want to have to think about it. Having recently played through the trilogy again, I have to say my personal experience was that firefights were more intense when ammo was involved. Now I know that ammo wasnt exactly scarce but it was still more intense having to make a mad dash for ammo while being shot at than ducking behind cover waiting for your weapon to cool down. I think they made the right decision in Inquisition with the camps. It was too easy in the other games to be able to spam healing potions and stick them in a chest for when a boss fight came up and then chug them one after the other. Now he is right in the sense that we are in an alien world, however I'm pretty sure that before they invented energy weapons they might have also used standard balistic weapons too. I'm pretty sure that when the Americas were landed on by the Spanish they brought lots of ammmunition with them. Just my 2p worth. You make valid points about how MEA could finally make ammo important. I disagree that it has ever been important, previously. Between weapon load outs and omnipresent clips, it has been nearly impossible to run out of ammo in these games. (For clarity's sake, I play solely on Insanity difficulty, Xbox360, all classes but Engineer.) Even if your Sniper Rifle went dry (the worst and most common case), you could pull one of your backup weapons and keep up the fight just fine. Plus, killing foes always, eventually, resulted in more clips. I know experiences vary, and I'm not trying to discount yours. In my experience of over 100 playthroughs (ME2/3 combined, not including ME), I may as well have had infinite ammo for all the effect ammo limits have had. The main issue with clips, if they remain in the game, is that they cannot be a resource to be scavenged off of every battlefield and out of every corner of the galaxy, this time. They were eyesores in ME2/3, but they'll be ridiculous in Andromeda. Your idea of an Andromeda version of camps is a good one. It would definitely add to the "explorers on the dangerous edge" feel. It still leaves the supply lines questions, but ME has never been a game to address deep questions. As I said in a previous post, it could be that limited supplies are a big part of MEA's gameplay ambience. It could be very fun. I'd think I'd prefer the solution I proffered (big surprise!), but your limited ammo and ordnance to be replenished at outposts would be my second choice. Either is infinitely superior to clip-littered fields and crates omnipresent crates. |
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Post by KaiserShep on Nov 10, 2016 7:58:27 GMT
Always wondered why guns would allow you to overheat them in the first place. Would make more sense to have a system that restricts the rate of fire and prevents that from happening altogether, venting small amounts of heat as shots are fired. If anything you would have a cooling system that could be fired off occasionally for increased rate of fire. Well this is partly a gameplay thing, but I think I might get frustrated with a weapon that swaps rate of fire to account for its cooling. I'd much rather just control my firing and stay aware of how many shots I have left before the weapon shuts down to cool off, so I'll always have enough shots to finish off the next enemy and then let the gun cool down again and repeat. When playing with the Lancer, like in the arena with the ammo crate modifier, I always make sure to use controlled bursts so I never leave myself vulnerable with that long cool down session. |
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Post by Ahriman on Nov 10, 2016 8:59:55 GMT
Lore-wise they could have both types. "No clip weapon? We have some in early stocks, but they are ancient, like 2180"
Then there is also Remnant weapons, I doubt they used thermal clips back then.
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Post by Xerxes52 on Nov 10, 2016 9:08:01 GMT
I think overheating weapons should be present in ME:A, possibly alongside thermal clips, with their own advantages/disadvantages. The ME3 Lancer variant and the PPR were the way to go, no Frictionless Materials X to break the weapon and allow infinite shooting.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 10, 2016 9:11:06 GMT
I really really want overheating to be back maybe as a weapon mod so we can use it to have unlimited ammo for less damage. I never liked thermal clips to begin with.
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Post by zipzap2000 on Nov 10, 2016 10:58:53 GMT
Always wondered why guns would allow you to overheat them in the first place. Would make more sense to have a system that restricts the rate of fire and prevents that from happening altogether, venting small amounts of heat as shots are fired. If anything you would have a cooling system that could be fired off occasionally for increased rate of fire. Well this is partly a gameplay thing, but I think I might get frustrated with a weapon that swaps rate of fire to account for its cooling. I'd much rather just control my firing and stay aware of how many shots I have left before the weapon shuts down to cool off, so I'll always have enough shots to finish off the next enemy and then let the gun cool down again and repeat. When playing with the Lancer, like in the arena with the ammo crate modifier, I always make sure to use controlled bursts so I never leave myself vulnerable with that long cool down session. I'm not saying it should slow down as it heats up I'm saying it should simply have a set rate of fire that doesn't allow you to overheat it easily. For example shotguns and pistols in ME1 could be used with ease if you didn't pull the trigger too fast. So why would they let you do it? And if it did overheat why not allow for a cooling system? If we can snapfreeze each other it shouldn't be hard. |
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Post by zipzap2000 on Nov 10, 2016 11:02:48 GMT
Is running out of ammo a common occurance in MP? It does happen, especially on higher difficulty where everything is a huge bullet sponge. And running for ammo becomes very inconvenient. |
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Post by coldsteelblue on Nov 10, 2016 11:05:00 GMT
I'm in agreement with this thread getting rid of thermal clips would in my opinion, make a better gameplay experience, maybe if more powerful weapons had a longer cooldown than weaker weapons, this would mean you'd have to manage your loadout as well.
Just my thoughts
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Post by tatann on Nov 10, 2016 11:44:38 GMT
I'd love to see weapon overheating return, but I'm curious as to how that would play out with the multiplayer aspect of the game. Is running out of ammo a common occurance in MP? It's not common, because you have to run to the ammo box every 30 seconds, which is a real chore because the ammo is shared among players... Ammo were a big mistake since ME2 |
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