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Post by Element Zero on Nov 16, 2016 3:58:45 GMT
No need to apologize for your writing style to me -- I do the same thing. The only difference is I support my guesses with citations. If everything was planned out before departure, why have Pathfinders at all? Why call them Pathfinders? Garson says, "Pathfinders ... will be tasked with finding a new home on one of the goldenworlds ... in the Heleus cluster." You've heard all the Bioware leads emphasize that the game is about exploration, right? Also, what if the best looking goldenworld detected by long ranged scanners has a culture of sentient beings on it? We're just going to send an Ark into orbit of some culture's homeworld and hope for the best? And again referring to the vid, Garson says "you will awake from cryostasis on the outskirts of the Andromeda galaxy". Not anywhere near a goldenworld. Plus, this bears repeating: The Nexus doesn't have to arrive first for this to make sense. They can arrive all at the same time. Of course, it doesn't actually matter if the Pathfinders are on the Arks or the Nexus if they arrive at the same time. One way or the other, they'll gather to meet with Garson on the NExus for final instructions. Otherwise, again, what purpose does the Nexus serve, if not central Command & Control? Edit: The only reference material we have is the GI article, the trailers and the website, so it's safe to assume anything I say is based upon those sources. The shallow pool of references is the reason I don't cite sources in this thread. I'd assumed it was unnecessary. Also, the fact that my post keeps disappearing as I type it makes it really hard to build a coherent, well-formed post. Apologies for formatting, tone, autocorrect errors, etc... that I can't see and adjust.Planning in advance is the intelligent thing to do. Only a fool flies in blind. Regardless of what our passive sensor data has told us while in the Milky Way, we'd still need our Pathfinder aboard to take the lead in exploring the new worlds as they're actually encountered. I'm not sure how planning ahead would seem to negate the need for these specialists. Pathfinders are leaders. They are our experts and chief explorers. They may or may not command the Arks in the day to day (that seems a task better suited to a naval officer), but it seems certain the Pathfinder would wield considerable influence on his or her respective Ark. You mention the possibly of sentient aliens, which is one potential complication/danger. You ask, "Do we just send an Ark to the planets and hope for the best?" Apparently so. That's why each is carefully studied and imaged as best as we can manage from afar, beforehand. The Ark itself is capably staffed by a skilled team led by a Pathfinder. Everyone is trained for "first contact protocol", remember, in addition to assorted survival skills. Another danger is seen in-game when Ark Hyperion runs into trouble immediately upon arrival in Andromeda, seemingly due to unforeseen atmospheric anomalies. Whether it was the atmosphere or the kett, this is a perfect example of why you'd want your Pathfinder aboard. They are trained to lead when this type of thing happens. No organization trains leaders and then hoards them; you train them and then send them to lead. Alec Ryder and his peers are useless to their people if they're holed up on the Nexus as the Arks arrive at the first Golden Worlds. A key point here that I made in an earlier post is this: Had the Nexus and Pathfinders scouted ahead, they'd have known about the circumstances on Habitat 7, and the Ark Hyperion disaster would never have happened. Clearly, they didn't scout ahead and it does happen. As to your last question, "What purpose does the Nexus serve, if not Command and Control?", certainly that would be one logical role once the Arks arrive. Initially, they need some type of FOB. They may have needed to drop comm buoys to facilitate communications, jumpstart Helium-3 operations and refueling platforms so that standard ships can refuel, or check out the possible element zero mining locations they've no doubt spied from 600 FTL years away. There is a lot of infrastructure that needs building as those arks look for colony worlds. Maybe the arks can help, but they are substantially smaller than the huge vessel that left early to "prepare the way". My posts aren't about whose idea is better or more logical. Your ideas make sense. We are like two guys looking at the same painting and seeing different things. From what I see presented in the game info we have to this point, they seem to have sent the Arks straight to their first "golden world" targets. Clearly, it doesn't end well for Ark Hyperion, but their Pathfinder will see them through the chaos.
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Post by rapscallioness on Nov 16, 2016 6:09:28 GMT
I do have a vague memory from back when the first teaser trailer came out with sisRyder. Someone asked BW if the ship Sarah woke up on was the ARK (I don't think we knew much about the Hyperion, or the other ships, etc.)
They said that she was not on the ARK. She was waking up in another area, but then they said they'd talk about all that later.
So, iirc, Ryder may be on the Nexus after all. And the scene we see in the vid with Bro Ryder and Dr. Lexi was a cutscene showing what happens to the other sibling.
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Post by Element Zero on Nov 16, 2016 6:21:23 GMT
I do have a vague memory from back when the first teaser trailer came out with sisRyder. Someone asked BW if the ship Sarah woke up on was the ARK (I don't think we knew much about the Hyperion, or the other ships, etc.) They said that she was not on the ARK. She was waking up in another area, but then they said they'd talk about all that later. So, iirc, Ryder may be on the Nexus after all. And the scene we see in the vid with Bro Ryder and Dr. Lexi was a cutscene showing what happens to the other sibling. That seems unlikely. I can't repost the GI article verbatim, for obvious reasons, but it states more or less the following: Ark Hyperion arrives in Andromeda at Habitat 7, the first of the human "Golden Worlds" to be explored. Things aren't as expected, though, as the atmosphere is much more volatile than imaging had suggested. Communication with the Nexus and the other Arks is impossible, and it's ultimately Ryder's job to investigate and find a solution. Clearly, Ryder is aboard Ark Hyperion when it runs into trouble in isolation. We do know that the sibling has trouble awakening from cryosleep. It's possible that he or she isn't even able to do so until we manage to make contact with the Nexus, I guess. I haven't seen the tweet of which you speak.
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Post by Pounce de León on Nov 16, 2016 6:27:39 GMT
This feels so damn weird. They release a trailer where the plot is supposed to be about you, as the leader of humanity, colonising new worlds after the Milky Way is pretty much gone for good and then, the next thing they show is your ship crashing and the whole initial plot basically being flushed down the toilet. I don't know. I wish I only got to know about this element of surprise once I started playing the game. Prior to the trailer (which was sensational, there's no denying that), my expectations were so high I had started formulating all sorts of plans regarding colonisation and space exploration. Now the game has turned out to be "survive in a hostile environment". Basically, shoot the bad guys. Nothing against FPS, but is this going to be another ME2? Will there be a story? Will there be mystery? Or will it be a straightforward plot, where your job is to simply point and shoot, coupled with impressive cinematics and hot chicks/guys to romance? You know how it works: Big plans going wrong. I once rolled a starship captain in a pen-and-paper RPG and the gamemaster made sure I'd lose my frigate in the very first session. You gotta work your way up I guess.
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Post by rapscallioness on Nov 16, 2016 6:31:37 GMT
Let me see if I can find it. I don't think it was a tweet.....I'm trying to remember. It stuck out to me at the time because I remember thinking where the heck is Ryder then if not on the ARK. I was trying to figure out where Ryder might be if not the ARK, and why.
Or they might have said more that Ryder was not in the same area as the other people that were cryo'd.
Lemme see if I can find it. I'm curious now.
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Post by rapscallioness on Nov 16, 2016 6:42:47 GMT
Nah, I can't find it. I did find Aaryn saying that the Hyperion is a huge part of the story, "not just where Ryder wakes up". So, I guess I'm completely wrong here.
Reading PapaCharlie's post made me remember that tidbit from back then, though, because it was so odd.
Eh.
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Post by Element Zero on Nov 16, 2016 6:47:19 GMT
Let me see if I can find it. I don't think it was a tweet.....I'm trying to remember. It stuck out to me at the time because I remember thinking where the heck is Ryder then if not on the ARK. I was trying to figure out where Ryder might be if not the ARK, and why. Or they might have said more that Ryder was not in the same area as the other people that were cryo'd. Lemme see if I can find it. I'm curious now. Nah, I can't find it. I did find Aaryn saying that the Hyperion is a huge part of the story, "not just where Ryder wakes up". So, I guess I'm completely wrong here. Reading PapaCharlie's post made me remember that tidbit from back then, though, because it was so odd. Eh. They haven't given us too much, yet. We know how we are getting there and that something goes very wrong. The details, though, are all up for debate. It gives us something to do while impatiently waiting.
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Post by rapscallioness on Nov 16, 2016 6:52:37 GMT
I gotta be careful with this speculating stuff, though. It does actually reveal some spoilers. BSN is pretty good at ferreting out at least the broad strokes.
I wanted to try going in without knowing too much, yet I feel like I'm not doing too good with that, even now knowing that the Hyperion has issues on arrival may be too much.
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Post by Kappa Neko on Nov 16, 2016 9:30:24 GMT
My fear is not that they flushed a good plot down the toilet, but rather that, after going through the immense trouble (read, fan backlash) of cleaning the slate by going to Andromeda and opening up a ton of blue-sky possibilities for telling any kind of story they wanted, it looks like they are going with something familiar, trite and cliche, a big mysterious catastrophe. And probably a family tragedy as well -- how else does Ryder Jr. become the Pathfinder? Dad's gotta die, or at least be lost. The exploration plot should still there, it may just have a banal narrative framework that we've seen a hundred times. One where our PC, instead of being excited about exploring this new frontier, will be grieving and feeling awkward about filling such big shoes and torn between doing what's right and doing what's fun. Yes, when rumors started about yet another mysterious alien race and galactic thread, I was like "Seriously, Bioware? Again?". But let's see what they did with it. I mean, DAO had such an unoriginal bland main story but what made the game great were the characters. And in the end the game was more about Alistair and politics than it was about the archdemon. DAI's secret main plot was the wholen elven gods thing. And that was SO GOOD, much much better than Corypheus. Except for ME1, Bioware always kind of writes weak plots and ridiculous batshit crazy bad guys. It's the companions and how they are connected to the plot that make their games interesting. I actually LOVED the family angle of DA2 and that's why I'm totally thrilled about daddy Ryder and sibling Ryder. However, I do not want a repeat of Carver hating your guts. Terrible terrible character. I agree that the game should not spend too much time on Ryder being scared of so much responsibility. I want Ryder to be a natural leader and take things in stride. "Well shit, this is not good. But I'll think of something. Ok, everyone. We need to come up with a plan B. Let's figure this out." Ryder can worry about others all they want. But please no Kaidan in ME3 situation. No overblown insecurities. And please no advisors. I want Ryder to be the one who has ideas, not do whatever the others say. Clueless inquisitor was painful. My elf didn't even understand who Mythal was. That was an awful oversight. Complete narrative mess. But I guess we won't have to worry about that in MEA. No multiple races. I have a feeling we'll reunite with daddy at the end. And I hope he's NOT the bad guy. I want him to join the others for collective ass kicking in the big showdown.
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Post by Element Zero on Nov 16, 2016 17:55:14 GMT
We seem to have a lot of differing views. I'll share mine, though only in the interest of offering a different perspective. I thought DAO's darkspawn storyline was pretty "moving", I guess I could say. I read the novels also, so maybe that helped. The absolute horror and bleakness of even a victory makes the Grey Wardens very tragic figures. As you say, a lot of other engaging stuff was going on in the meantime, as well. It wasn't until the very end of DAI that I felt that the IP was finally climbing out from under DAO's impressive shadow. I really liked Carver, but my one and only sister seems to have issues far worse than Carver's minor little resentments, so maybe that shapes my perspective. I never felt he hated his sibling. He just wanted to be his own man, and was a bit childish about it. Bethany was sweet, but brought little to the story. She nearly always died outside Lothering for me, because of this and my liking for Mage-Hawke. I liked the advisors of DAI. They were each supremely qualified for their respective roles. The Inquisitor wouldn't have been qualified or reasonably capable of doing the job without them. Still, they offered advise and support, but deferred to the Inquisitor's decisions. I never felt like they were telling me what to do. Maybe this is because I never had the urge to go completely off the rails offered? They gave good advice, and/or I was afforded a means to ignore them, so I never felt compelled to "obey" them. Will Ryder have advisors? I hope we will have a command team of sorts. I liked that ME2 had a leadership team. Shepard typically met with Miranda, Jacob and Mordin before important missions or decisions. (If I could've added Garrus to those meetings, I'd have been 100% happy.) Still, everyone knew who was in charge. Having advisors is not a sign of weakness, but of wisdom. It added to the verisimilitude for me. I hope Ryder has a few such people from his "Pathfinder team" (a term used by GI to describe the team's directly led by the Pathfinders) and Tempest crew. (He has to have an XO, right?) There is no way the young fellow is up to the immense challenge without the support of others. As to the dumb-dumb player character issue arising at the Temple of Mythal, I believe that was an unfortunate oversight. We were originally going to be able to play exclusively as a human Inquisitor. The ignorance of a human wouldn't have been as jarring. I think you mean you'd prefer no lengthy moping and worrying about others on the part of Ryder? I agree. There's far too much work to be done. Your sibling and many others are depending upon the success of your efforts. Get to work. I'm not too into the whole family story. I'm not opposed; I'm just indifferent. (Maybe it's my own life perspective kicking in, again!) I'm glad it's mostly happening in the background for a portion of the game. Significant, but not central, works fine for me. It will add depth to Ryder, so that will be good. This is much how I've always felt about the romance plots. They're good if they add to the story; otherwise, keep them to a minimum and focus on quality content. Have you ever played Jade Empire? That features BioWare's best villain ever in my opinion, until Solas. If you missed it, you should check it out. It's now available on iOS, apparently. I can't say how the interface works on that version, since I've yet to try it on iPad. It's a very good game, unique amongst the BioWare line-up.
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Post by The Elder King on Nov 16, 2016 18:20:20 GMT
For the advisers, I think we'll have characters that will be part of our staff, like a chief engineer/medic/executive officer, or similar. Considering the increasing role crew members have, I think their role will be deeper then in the trilogy,
And I agree with Element Zero. Ryder is young, and inexperienced, and she/he wasn't supposed to be the one leading humanity to find a new home. He should have people that can assist him/her.
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Nov 16, 2016 18:44:18 GMT
Planning in advance is the intelligent thing to do. Only a fool flies in blind. Regardless of what our passive sensor data has told us while in the Milky Way, we'd still need our Pathfinder aboard to take the lead in exploring the new worlds as they're actually encountered. I'm not sure how planning ahead would seem to negate the need for these specialists. I'm in perfect agreement. I'm skeptical about just how much can be known about anything in Andromeda from the MW, for reasons argued ad naseum in the other thread, but even if the had perfect knowledge, every battle plan goes out the window upon first contact with the enemy. That's an old military saying, but it applies more broadly. The best laid plans and all. Not to mention the information is 600 years out of date by the time they get there. Thus, the first thing I'd do as the commander of the expedition is reassess the situation and adjust plans as needed. Okay, here I have to grant you superior knowledge. I haven't read any of the GI article, and apparently it reveals some details that do directly refute my interpretation. For example: First I've heard of that! Curiously, that GI info conflicts with what Garson says in the vid. Unless there is a time skip between the arrival on the outskirts and the events detailed by GI? Well, as it happens, your idea is better, because it's based on more revealed lore than I was aware of. And recall that this all started with the theory in the OP that the whole "save humanity" theme is specifically about Ark Hyperion crashing. Since I was unaware of the GI info, I thought it made more sense for the Nexus to be attacked. GI info would rule that out.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by The Elder King on Nov 16, 2016 18:49:04 GMT
What Garson said in the orientation video is what it should've happened. Things didn't go according to plans for Hyperion.
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Post by Element Zero on Nov 16, 2016 19:04:52 GMT
What Garson said in the orientation video is what it should've happened. Things didn't go according to plans for Hyperion. Perhaps, though traveling straight to a planet, rather than a rendezvous point, would be a monumental oversight or malfunction. The GI article seemed to suggest that the shocking state of the planet was the issue, not the trip and arrival itself. We'll have to wait and see what the game itself reveals. GI is hardly an end-all/be-all font of info. To their credit, though, the article was clearly written with heavy influence from BioWare. The direct influence and quotes from Fabrice Condominas, Mike Gamble and Aaryn Flynn are plentiful. PapaCharlie9 , I didn't realize that you hadn't read the article. That explains why we were talking past one another. I was rather confused, to be honest. I think the part where Jien says that we will be awakening on the outskirts could be interpreted in a couple of ways. One, key personnel will start awakening a bit early. That makes sense. We've been told that Hyperion has some cryosleep issues. Maybe they don't awaken as scheduled? Combine this with the hazardous atmospheric conditions of Habitat 7, and you have a crisis. Alternately, or perhaps "also", the Heleus Cluster itself might be located on the outskirts of Andromeda. I don't think we are delving the heart of the galaxy in this game, or at least not in the early game. I suspect Heleus is on the fringes of Andromeda, and that its species are "regional powers" who haven't the means to reach beyond the cluster, yet. So, we are "awakening on the fringes of Andromeda" because that's essentially our destination. I think it's probably one of the above, or likely a combination of the two.
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Post by Kappa Neko on Nov 16, 2016 21:46:42 GMT
We seem to have a lot of differing views. I'll share mine, though only in the interest of offering a different perspective. -snip- Different perspectives is always interesting when presented in a way that makes them easy to understand like in your case. I did not read the novels. I do agree that the Grey Wardens have bleak lives. And they become wardens not knowing what they sign up for, which makes it so much worse. The one guy running away at the beginning… I cannot blame him. That aspect was well done and continues to be interesting, especially now after DAI. There are very interesting implications. It’s what I keep saying, that Bioware is good at how they tell stories even if their stories aren’t the most original imo. They know how to move us, definitely. But the overall evil-monsters-need-to-be-slain plot was not what appealed to me. I’ve always been a fan of the human side. The templars vs mages plot. I know many find THAT fairly boring and drawn out. I loved it. I loved that DA2 was all about that. I like how Bioware presents moral dilemmas. Like with the genophage, I honestly can see both sides of the argument and wouldn’t know what to do if I was in charge of the situation. I never put DAO on a pedestal like many fans do. Even the art style was not to my liking. Aesthetically DAI is my favorite of the franchise even if it makes everything look deceptively cheerful. I’m not a fan of bleak visuals. Which is why I never touched Fallout. And the only reason I even played DAO was because of ME1, which was my first Bioware game. Fell so in love I tried DAO despite my dislike for medieval settings and gore. The advisors made sense because the inquisitor came into the story as an outsider, yes. I simply happen not to like that narrative of clueless person who ends up having to save the world. And I never felt like the inquisitor progressed much from there to somebody who knows what they’re doing by the end. The advisors gave good advice and I had my Lavellan follow it. I didn’t mean to say that taking advice is a weakness. I very much agree it’s smart and mature to listen to people who have more experience. It just made the inquisitor boring to me. I never felt like she saw eye to eye with anyone. Everybody had more insight, the inquisitor brought nothing to the table. It was only the anchor that made her “special”. Otherwise I saw no outstanding qualities. That bothered me. A lot. I want Ryder to be uniquely qualified for something. And then brainstorm with other people who have a talent of their own for something else. I felt like the trilogy nailed that. Shepard was an amazing leader and a good diplomat (when paragon). The others had equally important qualities. Right down to somebody like Traynor. It was awesome. Yes, I know the Mythal thing was an oversight, but it added more salt to the wound, so to speak. Sorry, I meant that I’m fine with Ryder worrying about family and friends. I loved that side of Shepard, especially in ME3. See, Kaidan was having a meltdown mostly about himself. He got promoted and felt insecure about it. Not up to the task. He felt insecure about Horizon and where things stood with Shepard. And when Shepard needed somebody to cheer her up, Kaidan made it worse. He was a complete mess. Shepard was tired and “broken” because she was so scared everyone she loved would die. It wasn’t about her. That she wasn’t a good leader but that it just wasn’t enough. See the difference? In any case, I don’t think Ryder will have such desperate responsibility on their shoulders. The extinction of all advanced Milky Way races was an extreme case. Even if the people on the ark are in deep shit, it’s not Ryder alone who has save everyone. So should be fine. I grew up an only child of a single mother. Always wanted to have a brother. That’s why I like family stories so much. They are as fictional to me as alien races. Escapism, experiencing something I don’t know. I’ll always be drawn to these types of stories (I’m currently getting emotionally wrecked by Bates Motel!). The romances I’m always looking forward to as extra character content, and then I remember that they usually aren’t particularly good, haha. I’m not in favor of adding even MORE romance content. DAI had already plenty. I know everybody wants to self-insert. But I’d rather play a really good one that ties into the plot (like Liara and Alistair) than have ten different cringe-worthy choices that exist in a void. That’s the thing in general where we have two opposing camps: do we want characters intertwined with the plot for maximum scripted emotional payoff, or do we want maximum freedom to play our own story at the expense of such impact? I’m very firmly in the first camp. If Bioware has an amazing idea for a lone wolf story or a romance that isn’t my own sexual orientation, that’s still great. I have no problems playing Geralt either and watching him pine for Yennefer because that’s how it’s in the books. All *I* want is to get into other character’s heads and be moved by their story. Doesn’t need to be MY story. But I understand those who want to write their own stories in their heads. Bioware games are somewhere in the middle, I guess. But they lean more towards semi-set characters imo. Which makes me happy, others not so much. And I sometimes feel like some people would be happier with a different developer where there’s more roleplaying freedom. I never played Jade Empire. But I downloaded it when it was free for a while. I might yet play it. I keep hearing good things about it. So without having played it, Solas is definitely the best villain of their two current franchises. I was so delighted how it all turned out in Trespasser. Great great writing! Sorry this got so long!
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Post by Element Zero on Nov 16, 2016 22:32:49 GMT
Kappa Neko , good post. I enjoyed reading it. I find that the best way to subdue Kaidan's brooding in ME3 is to shut it down immediately on Mars. If you hit him with the bottom option upon discovering the Cerbeus trooper, it changes the dynamic quite a bit in later conversations. Shepard says, "Kaidan, I have a mission. You don't have to come along...", or something similar, and Kaidan straightens up pretty quickly. He whines a bit less, too, later in the game. It's an oddly hidden solution that I greatly enjoyed once I discovered it. Plus, the dialogue option really does match up better with how I felt about the incessant whining on Mars. If you're already using that option and still think he's too hung up, I can't help you. He's not half as bad as Ashley. They ruined Ash, though, in more ways than one. I can see the complaint about the Inquisitor never initiating his or her own plans. That's often an issue with BioWare's games. Shepard was somewhat following a script, too, getting input from the Council and TIM; but they did a good job of emphasizing, "This is is your show, Shepard. We're just offering advice." The Pathfinder sounds like a position of huge import and responsibility. I imagine Ryder will get input from the Nexus, as Shepard did from the Council. We will see how well they do in making us feel like we have some autonomy. Too much feels wrong, but too little feels restrictive.
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rapscallioness
N3
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, Jade Empire
Posts: 731 Likes: 1,531
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rapscallioness
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rapscallioness
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, Jade Empire
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Post by rapscallioness on Nov 16, 2016 23:45:38 GMT
I do have a better understanding now of the whole save humanity theme. I was confused by the apparent human centric..even though..well..but still. I was confused at what we were doing when it's obvious there's other species and efforts going on.
The Hyperion running into issues, whether it crashes, or system malfunction, or whatever makes more sense within the context of save humanity.
I thought Earth was in trouble, and that's why we were going to Andromeda to save humanity, and all that. But if it's the human ARK that goes down upon arrival inn Andromeda, then I see.
Apparently, your sibling does not join you in battle because of awakening issues with the cryo. So, maybe what we see in the trailer is the PC just waking up. Having some coffee. Chatting up Dr. Lexi. Then Kaboom!! Coffee everywhere.
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