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Post by docsteely on Apr 14, 2020 12:18:48 GMT
xelander , I'm sorry, but I was expecting for a little more than "Venom trivializes everything but bosses, including and especially phantrolls" - as I said before, that argument can be made for the GPS too... As to the rest of your post regarding the Wraith I'll just say that I personally will take the Arc Pistol with AP ammo over the Wraith any time of the day.(and yes, muahmuah , it's a 1v1 in the Thunderdome anytime you want ). The question that should be asked imo about a gun or a character before deciding how OP it is is: does it break the game? The answer for the Reetard and to a lesser extent Lolcolyte or Cariier, is obvious. The same goes for the AIU, TGI etc. I don't think that the TSol or DAI or even the GI fall into the same category. And for DistigousForest did u feel targeted by any chance? Good! Cuz you were...
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Post by Deleted on Apr 14, 2020 12:19:36 GMT
I'm assuming you mean TCPs - I invariably have around 255 of those in my inventory, so when I find myself running low on Ops packs or Gels I usually have a run with either the AA or a particularly psychotic Batarian grenade-chucker so that I can justify buying a few Reserves Packs to give a guaranteed boost to whatever I'm low in.* Yeah that's what I meant It's fixed now. I love it on Infiltrator Shepard, makes you feel like James Bond or something. That's why I love it on the Drell Assassin! oh that's a good one, I'm not sure I've tried that before- Drell speed would make the constant trips to the ammo box slightly less painful. Think I'm going to try this later today, Suppressor DAI
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Post by docsteely on Apr 14, 2020 12:26:09 GMT
Yeah that's what I meant It's fixed now. That's why I love it on the Drell Assassin! oh that's a good one, I'm not sure I've tried that before- Drell speed would make the constant trips to the ammo box slightly less painful. Think I'm going to try this later today, Suppressor DAI It rulz...
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Post by Deleted on Apr 14, 2020 12:29:17 GMT
The same goes for the AIU, TGI etc. I don't think that the TSol or DAI or even the GI fall into the same category. I think this is mostly because TGI/AIU are idiot-proof and PUGs don't know how to Drell properly (or GI for that matter). TGI and AIU are problematic because they have the insane DPS of a glass cannon kit like the GI or DAI, but without the "glass" part: they let you have your your cake and eat it too, giving you the high damage output of a glass canon and the survivability of a tank. Its just not balanced: really good offensive kits should be weak on defense, and visa versa.
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Post by docsteely on Apr 14, 2020 12:38:18 GMT
The same goes for the AIU, TGI etc. I don't think that the TSol or DAI or even the GI fall into the same category. I think this is mostly because TGI/AIU are idiot-proof and PUGs don't know how to Drell properly (or GI for that matter). TGI and AIU are problematic because they have the insane DPS of a glass cannon kit like the GI or DAI, but without the "glass" part: they let you have your your cake and eat it too, giving you the high damage output of a glass canon and the survivability of a tank. Its just not balanced: really good offensive kits should be weak on defense, and visa versa. Exactly! The idiot-proof perspective is what I call game breaking.🙂
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Post by Urizen on Apr 14, 2020 12:40:50 GMT
The same goes for the AIU, TGI etc. I don't think that the TSol or DAI or even the GI fall into the same category. I think this is mostly because TGI/AIU are idiot-proof and PUGs don't know how to Drell properly (or GI for that matter). TGI and AIU are problematic because they have the insane DPS of a glass cannon kit like the GI or DAI, but without the "glass" part: they let you have your your cake and eat it too, giving you the high damage output of a glass canon and the survivability of a tank. Its just not balanced: really good offensive kits should be weak on defense, and visa versa. GI does come with Hunter Mode though, increasing survivability through superior situational awareness, an enemy seen coming is an enemy avoided or better yet, killed. So yeah, I actually think he falls in the same category as the AIU and TGI, because HM compensates more than enough for the lack of HP/LolnopebuttonAkaStimAkaRM. Can see your point on the DAI somewhat, rarely see him specced for speed + AM3.
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Post by DoctorDAM on Apr 14, 2020 12:46:00 GMT
I think this is mostly because TGI/AIU are idiot-proof and PUGs don't know how to Drell properly (or GI for that matter). TGI and AIU are problematic because they have the insane DPS of a glass cannon kit like the GI or DAI, but without the "glass" part: they let you have your your cake and eat it too, giving you the high damage output of a glass canon and the survivability of a tank. Its just not balanced: really good offensive kits should be weak on defense, and visa versa. I think you guys might forget that, even 8 years into the game, for many reasons there are lots of people who don't play at your level, or have your manifests (and L4 consumables to spare). So, there's a reason us poor PUG slobs often turn to "idiot-proof classes". Do they "break the game"? I guess it depends on your definition. So, my unpopular opinion: While some are clearly way better than others ... None of these classes or weapons "breaks the game". This isn't PvP. Let people play what they want to play.
[said respectively, and in awe of those of you who do play at that level]
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Post by docsteely on Apr 14, 2020 12:48:55 GMT
I think this is mostly because TGI/AIU are idiot-proof and PUGs don't know how to Drell properly (or GI for that matter). TGI and AIU are problematic because they have the insane DPS of a glass cannon kit like the GI or DAI, but without the "glass" part: they let you have your your cake and eat it too, giving you the high damage output of a glass canon and the survivability of a tank. Its just not balanced: really good offensive kits should be weak on defense, and visa versa. GI does come with Hunter Mode though, increasing survivability through superior situational awareness, an enemy seen coming is an enemy avoided or better yet, killed. So yeah, I actually think he falls in the same category as the AIU and TGI, because HM compensates more than enough for the lack of HP/LolnopebuttonAkaStimAkaRM. Can see your point on the DAI somewhat, rarely see him specced for speed + AM3. Maybe, but the GI doesn’t have infinite ops or gels like the TGI or AIU, also to get to the same DPS it needs a little learning, while those two need next to none. Same goes for the DAI...
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Post by Urizen on Apr 14, 2020 12:57:18 GMT
GI does come with Hunter Mode though, increasing survivability through superior situational awareness, an enemy seen coming is an enemy avoided or better yet, killed. So yeah, I actually think he falls in the same category as the AIU and TGI, because HM compensates more than enough for the lack of HP/LolnopebuttonAkaStimAkaRM. Can see your point on the DAI somewhat, rarely see him specced for speed + AM3. Maybe, but the GI doesn’t have infinite ops or gels like the TGI or AIU, also to get to the same DPS it needs a little learning, while those two need next to none. Same goes for the DAI... It`s the same on all 3 though, TC -> kill baddie -> repeat. The only learning involved on the GI is if you want to hit the enemies with your pm in the face, otherwise you just lay it down on the ground and have the baddie run into it. Easy. Really is no different from pointing the crosshair in the general direction of the enemy and snapcheese away. But yeah, TGI is literally TC -> kill baddies. Very EZ mode.
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Post by Tonymac on Apr 14, 2020 12:58:08 GMT
These combinations we are discussing makes me want to go back to the old GI/GPS combo and run a few.
Crush your enemies, see them driven before you, hear the lamentation of the women.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 14, 2020 12:58:21 GMT
I think this is mostly because TGI/AIU are idiot-proof and PUGs don't know how to Drell properly (or GI for that matter). TGI and AIU are problematic because they have the insane DPS of a glass cannon kit like the GI or DAI, but without the "glass" part: they let you have your your cake and eat it too, giving you the high damage output of a glass canon and the survivability of a tank. Its just not balanced: really good offensive kits should be weak on defense, and visa versa. GI does come with Hunter Mode though, increasing survivability through superior situational awareness, an enemy seen coming is an enemy avoided or better yet, killed. So yeah, I actually think he falls in the same category as the AIU and TGI, because HM compensates more than enough for the lack of HP/LolnopebuttonAkaStimAkaRM. Can see your point on the DAI somewhat, rarely see him specced for speed + AM3. Sure, both GI and the DAI have a power or ability that helps survivability too (which is part of what sets them above other infiltrators, like the vanilla humans for instance). But its not idiot-proof in the same way the TGI is with Stim Packs, or the AIU with Repair Matrix: we've all seen PUGs try to play GI, and usually with unfortunate results. Hunter mode and the GI's increased situational awareness still requires some experience, in-game knowledge, and/or skill to translate into superior survivability, whereas Stim Packs and the TGI only require the push of a single button to become nearly invincible. But there's no question that the GI and DAI are top-tier kits, due at least in part to their defensive capabilities.. I just don't think they're anywhere near as game-breaking or unbalanced as the TGI, because of the whole idiot-proof thing.
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Post by Urizen on Apr 14, 2020 13:01:04 GMT
I think this is mostly because TGI/AIU are idiot-proof and PUGs don't know how to Drell properly (or GI for that matter). TGI and AIU are problematic because they have the insane DPS of a glass cannon kit like the GI or DAI, but without the "glass" part: they let you have your your cake and eat it too, giving you the high damage output of a glass canon and the survivability of a tank. Its just not balanced: really good offensive kits should be weak on defense, and visa versa. I think you guys might forget that, even 8 years into the game, for many reasons there are lots of people who don't play at your level, or have your manifests (and L4 consumables to spare). So, there's a reason us poor PUG slobs often turn to "idiot-proof classes". Do they "break the game"? I guess it depends on your definition. So, my unpopular opinion: While some are clearly way better than others ... None of these classes or weapons "breaks the game". This isn't PvP. Let people play what they want to play.
[said respectively, and in awe of those of you who do play at that level]
Hey everyone in here runs a GI or TGI or AIU once in awhile. That's why we can see how they trivialize the game. A phantom loses much of her terror when you can simply RM thru her synckill.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 14, 2020 13:02:53 GMT
I think this is mostly because TGI/AIU are idiot-proof and PUGs don't know how to Drell properly (or GI for that matter). TGI and AIU are problematic because they have the insane DPS of a glass cannon kit like the GI or DAI, but without the "glass" part: they let you have your your cake and eat it too, giving you the high damage output of a glass canon and the survivability of a tank. Its just not balanced: really good offensive kits should be weak on defense, and visa versa. I think you guys might forget that, even 8 years into the game, for many reasons there are lots of people who don't play at your level, or have your manifests (and L4 consumables to spare). So, there's a reason us poor PUG slobs often turn to "idiot-proof classes". Do they "break the game"? I guess it depends on your definition. So, my unpopular opinion: While some are clearly way better than others ... None of these classes or weapons "breaks the game". This isn't PvP. Let people play what they want to play.
[said respectively, and in awe of those of you who do play at that level]
Oh don't get me wrong, I have no problem with these kits being in the game, nor do I have any problem with people using them. I often even encourage people to use these kits, if they're new to the game, struggling on higher difficulties, or whatever. Heck, I even use them myself sometimes (melee Venom TGI is sooooo fun). So that's not what I mean by "game breaking", "unbalanced", etc. I agree with you that people should use the kits and weapons that they like, and that the people who genuinely have a problem with people using certain kits, weapons, or powers are just being wieners. I'm more talking about ranking or comparing kits relative to one another, NOT drawing a line in the sand and saying some kits are acceptable to play and others are not.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 14, 2020 13:07:33 GMT
These combinations we are discussing makes me want to go back to the old GI/GPS combo and run a few. Crush your enemies, see them driven before you, hear the lamentation of the women. yeah GPS GI is old-school badassery, thanks for reminding me I'm overdue for some Geth GPS shenanigans. May do GPS Geth Engie actually, haven't played the GE in a while either and incendiary GPS + Overload is pretty awesome
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Post by Urizen on Apr 14, 2020 13:07:55 GMT
GI does come with Hunter Mode though, increasing survivability through superior situational awareness, an enemy seen coming is an enemy avoided or better yet, killed. So yeah, I actually think he falls in the same category as the AIU and TGI, because HM compensates more than enough for the lack of HP/LolnopebuttonAkaStimAkaRM. Can see your point on the DAI somewhat, rarely see him specced for speed + AM3. Sure, both GI and the DAI have a power or ability that helps survivability too (which is part of what sets them above other infiltrators, like the vanilla humans for instance). But its not idiot-proof in the same way the TGI is with Stim Packs, or the AIU with Repair Matrix: we've all seen PUGs try to play GI, and usually with unfortunate results. Hunter mode and the GI's increased situational awareness still requires some experience, in-game knowledge, and/or skill to translate into superior survivability, whereas Stim Packs and the TGI only require the push of a single button to become nearly invincible. But there's no question that the GI and DAI are top-tier kits, due at least in part to their defensive capabilities.. I just don't think they're anywhere near as game-breaking or unbalanced as the TGI, because of the whole idiot-proof thing. I see far more AIUs and TGIs dropping than GIs though. They may be idiot proof in concept, in reality it's like it requires a whole nother level of idiot-proof for them to not die with these kits like flies. The amount of AIUs with inactive RM I regularly see is staggering to say the least. Every pug tends to have active HM, I wish the same could be said for RM.
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Post by DistigousForest on Apr 14, 2020 13:16:36 GMT
These combinations we are discussing makes me want to go back to the old GI/GPS combo and run a few. Crush your enemies, see them driven before you, hear the lamentation of the women. yeah GPS GI is old-school badassery, thanks for reminding me I'm overdue for some Geth GPS shenanigans. May do GPS Geth Engie actually, haven't played the GE in a while either and incendiary GPS + Overload is pretty awesome That's a go to plat carry kit right there. I just used it with the Disciple the other day w/ apIII for challenges and that ripped through gold/cerberus.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 14, 2020 13:19:31 GMT
Sure, both GI and the DAI have a power or ability that helps survivability too (which is part of what sets them above other infiltrators, like the vanilla humans for instance). But its not idiot-proof in the same way the TGI is with Stim Packs, or the AIU with Repair Matrix: we've all seen PUGs try to play GI, and usually with unfortunate results. Hunter mode and the GI's increased situational awareness still requires some experience, in-game knowledge, and/or skill to translate into superior survivability, whereas Stim Packs and the TGI only require the push of a single button to become nearly invincible. But there's no question that the GI and DAI are top-tier kits, due at least in part to their defensive capabilities.. I just don't think they're anywhere near as game-breaking or unbalanced as the TGI, because of the whole idiot-proof thing. I see far more AIUs and TGIs dropping than GIs though. They may be idiot proof in concept, in reality it's like it requires a whole nother level of idiot-proof for them to not die with these kits like flies. The amount of AIUs with inactive RM I regularly see is staggering to say the least. Every pug tends to have active HM, I wish the same could be said for RM. tbh, I can't even remember the last time I saw a PUG play GI. Also doesn't help that I solo way more than I play team games. But you're definitely right that this is theory and that practice may vary... but I do think that this is more exception than rule- knowing where enemies are requires the ability to properly act on that information to translate it into increased survivability (which PUGs may or may not have), whereas Stim Packs only require knowing which button to push to get a massive boost/refill to your shields.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 14, 2020 13:21:37 GMT
yeah GPS GI is old-school badassery, thanks for reminding me I'm overdue for some Geth GPS shenanigans. May do GPS Geth Engie actually, haven't played the GE in a while either and incendiary GPS + Overload is pretty awesome That's a go to plat carry kit right there. I just used it with the Disciple the other day w/ apIII for challenges and that ripped through gold/cerberus. i'm trying to remember if I've done a plat solo with the GE- I think I must have, but I can't specifically remember doing so. Gotta go check now, and if I don't I'm going to have to get on that. Great all-around kit. edit: I did, with Venom, but it was a really shitty time so I think I need to redo that one
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Post by Urizen on Apr 14, 2020 13:49:50 GMT
tbh, I can't even remember the last time I saw a PUG play GI. Also doesn't help that I solo way more than I play team games. But you're definitely right that this is theory and that practice may vary... but I do think that this is more exception than rule- knowing where enemies are requires the ability to properly act on that information to translate it into increased survivability (which PUGs may or may not have), whereas Stim Packs only require knowing which button to push to get a massive boost/refill to your shields If we are strictly speaking theory, you could argue that HM is on the same level as RM/Stim, as it makes the latter obsolete. RM/Stim are afterall for all the "Oh-Shit!" moments, which with HM never occur. If we are using experience/skill as basis, HM will still make RM/Stims obsolete, because an experienced/skilled player will get the most out of HM in conjunction with his ability to predict spawns. Think of all the advises to new players to use the Geth Scanner when available, exactly because it significantly increases survivability. The scanner is the little immature brother of HM.
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Post by GruntKitterhand on Apr 14, 2020 13:56:15 GMT
yeah GPS GI is old-school badassery, thanks for reminding me I'm overdue for some Geth GPS shenanigans. May do GPS Geth Engie actually, haven't played the GE in a while either and incendiary GPS + Overload is pretty awesome That's a go to plat carry kit right there. I snorted when I read that, as I was certainly carried through my last Plat game while using it, right @scarletj5? In seriousness though that particular toaster is feckin awesome. I was just out-Venomed by two teammates. Such is life. Also, @pryingopenmybrowneye's comment about theory and practice has really made me miss Glenn. For those who perhaps never noticed his avatar quote: "In theory there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice there is."
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Post by Deleted on Apr 14, 2020 13:58:43 GMT
tbh, I can't even remember the last time I saw a PUG play GI. Also doesn't help that I solo way more than I play team games. But you're definitely right that this is theory and that practice may vary... but I do think that this is more exception than rule- knowing where enemies are requires the ability to properly act on that information to translate it into increased survivability (which PUGs may or may not have), whereas Stim Packs only require knowing which button to push to get a massive boost/refill to your shields If we are strictly speaking theory, you could argue that HM is on the same level as RM/Stim, as it makes the latter obsolete. RM/Stim are afterall for all the "Oh-Shit!" moments, which with HM never occur. If we are using experience/skill as basis, HM will still make RM/Stims obsolete, because an experienced/skilled player will get the most out of HM in conjunction with his ability to predict spawns. Think of all the advises to new players to use the Geth Scanner when available, exactly because it significantly increases survivability. The scanner is the little immature brother of HM. Yeah I agree with this- Geth vision (either GS or HM) has the potential to grant more (or at least equal) survivability, provided one knows how to make the most out of it. But that's the important catch- it requires some experience and knowledge to maximize its potential. Whereas Stim Packs are much more basic, not really any nuance or experience required- you just push the button. (and of course, the TGI has the option to have both Stim Packs and Geth Scanner, if you want to be really excessive, though I imagine most PUGs are more likely to use grenade gear for more Stim Packs than GS)
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Post by Deleted on Apr 14, 2020 14:05:07 GMT
That's a go to plat carry kit right there. I snorted when I read that, as I was certainly carried through my last Plat game while using it, right @scarletj5 ? In seriousness though that particular toaster is feckin awesome. I was just out-Venomed by two teammates. Such is life. Also, @pryingopenmybrowneye 's comment about theory and practice has really made me miss Glenn. For those who perhaps never noticed his avatar quote: "In theory there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice there is." Was I aware that you had gotten your first plat solo under your belt? I noticed your name on the list when I was looking at the Plat HoF- I think that must have happened while I was on hiatus, right? And with the Black Widow, no less. That's fucking big pimpin' man, nice work!
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Post by DistigousForest on Apr 14, 2020 14:06:20 GMT
And for DistigousForest did u feel targeted by any chance? Good! Cuz you were... I snorted when I read that, as I was certainly carried through my last Plat game while using it, right scarletj5? Well Grunt you can't go all Leroy Jenkins with it, ya dig? You gotta use some cover n shit every now and then
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Post by docsteely on Apr 14, 2020 14:08:15 GMT
I think this is mostly because TGI/AIU are idiot-proof and PUGs don't know how to Drell properly (or GI for that matter). TGI and AIU are problematic because they have the insane DPS of a glass cannon kit like the GI or DAI, but without the "glass" part: they let you have your your cake and eat it too, giving you the high damage output of a glass canon and the survivability of a tank. Its just not balanced: really good offensive kits should be weak on defense, and visa versa. I think you guys might forget that, even 8 years into the game, for many reasons there are lots of people who don't play at your level, or have your manifests (and L4 consumables to spare). So, there's a reason us poor PUG slobs often turn to "idiot-proof classes". Do they "break the game"? I guess it depends on your definition. So, my unpopular opinion: While some are clearly way better than others ... None of these classes or weapons "breaks the game". This isn't PvP. Let people play what they want to play.
[said respectively, and in awe of those of you who do play at that level]
I totally agree with your last point, that people should play what they want to play and that's why you'll never see me kicking a player out of my lobby, no matter his/her loadout or the character he/she uses. Or for that matter the N7 or CP points one has. I'll never judge a player based on any of those criteria . But I think I'll need to explain a little more about the game breaking concept. You see, I know it's not a PvP and that it's a cooperative experience, but you know what else is? Going to a restaurant or to a movie. Would you take kindly to someone farting or burping near you or putting his legs on your seat? I don't think so. Why? Because it breaks what is socially acceptable. You do not get your kicks in a cooperative experience at the expense of others. We learn those rules as kids when we grow up. Going back to our game. We are all kids when we begin playing it and we have to learn what is and what is not socially acceptable. As I said before I will not judge you by your kit choices or standings. But I will judge you by your play . Not contributing to the escort or hack, not reviving teammates, not doing devices, nuking when you don't need to (typical example spawns on extraction), these things are for me the equivalent of farting in my face at a restaurant. And herein lies the problem. Using those easy-mode kits as a child in the game will enforce your bad habits and you will never learn. You'll come to the wrong idea that you contribute to the game because you kill things fast when in fact I'd rather you kill things slower and contribute to the team play. Also, from my experience, things go down faster when you play a kit that complements the other on your team than when you play an OP kit. But that's just my 2c...
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Post by Deleted on Apr 14, 2020 14:11:21 GMT
I snorted when I read that, as I was certainly carried through my last Plat game while using it, right scarletj5? Well Grunt you can't go all Leroy Jenkins with it, ya dig? You gotta use some cover n shit every now and then Cover? What's cover? Me and Grunt need no cover, we rage gel our way to victory
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