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Post by Crim on Feb 25, 2017 12:42:22 GMT
Kinda getting that Vivienne feeling again tho, another GoT actress. And we still know next to nothing about Jien Garson, Bioware pls. Then it turns out Dad Ryder romanced Jien lol
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Post by warbaby2 on Feb 25, 2017 12:48:10 GMT
Agreed. My biggest issue with BioWare games is that the relationships usually always go the same way. Have dialogue chats and grow closer together over the period of the game. The world is about to end and you have sex right before the final mission. The end. I'd like to see them get away from such a stringent format and make the relationships a lot more dynamic and realistic. There should never be a point where we should be able to predict what's going to happen next. For ME this is mostly true, but I disagree about Dragon Age. In DA:O, DA2, and DA:I they all have their relationship sex scenes before the final mission. Some don't have sex scenes, and some move in with you. They do have repercussions for your actions, in fact every single one judges what you do and your general character. I mean Iron Bull in Tresspasser is proof enough, but making Cassandra Divine? Alistair and non-nobles, Anders?! I am always shocked that people dissmiss how much characters react to you and have repercussions for actions, or will do their own thing regardless of your wants. I think it is because most of us Metagame so dismiss that Bioware have probably the most complex romances anywhere in gaming. True, but, with all their different potential outcomes, the base structure of romances is usually the same. For instance, you usually don't have much of a different interaction during gameplay with your active LI... usually, all you get after the "peeking point" in the relationship, is maybe one or two additional lines of dialogue or a hand full of short scenes, but the rest of the game is largely unaffected by it. I think that's a shame, personally.
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Post by chancemace on Feb 25, 2017 13:04:00 GMT
True, but, with all their different potential outcomes, the base structure of romances is usually the same. For instance, you usually don't have much of a different interaction during gameplay with your active LI... usually, all you get after the "peeking point" in the relationship, is maybe one or two additional lines of dialogue or a hand full of short scenes, but the rest of the game is largely unaffected by it. I think that's a shame, personally. I get that, but I also think it is a good thing because the game allows you to grow attached to characters beyond just romance. My relationship with Sera is very different depending if I am her friend or romance, or a "posh" person who gives her hell. Lots of people love talking about Garrus as a pal/bro. When you can be friends or rivals or lovers with characters, it shows depth. Most games pre-plan your relationship with someone with a few going character X is a friend/Enemy. But Bioware allows a lot of nuance. True, the differences looking back are minor but they have a definite feel of comraderie vs romance and for some characters that is built in if they are attracted to you. I do feel they are a bit formulaic at times, but not as much as they are argued to be. Become pals with Alistair, marry him, and romance Leliana on the side? Sure. Have sex with Jack and then barely talk to her for the rest of the trip? oh yeah. Mass Effect does need to work on formulas which are way worse then DA, but I feel like if they can even make them similar it will be a long way to giving it a more organic feel.
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Post by warbaby2 on Feb 25, 2017 13:24:11 GMT
True, but, with all their different potential outcomes, the base structure of romances is usually the same. For instance, you usually don't have much of a different interaction during gameplay with your active LI... usually, all you get after the "peeking point" in the relationship, is maybe one or two additional lines of dialogue or a hand full of short scenes, but the rest of the game is largely unaffected by it. I think that's a shame, personally. I get that, but I also think it is a good thing because the game allows you to grow attached to characters beyond just romance. My relationship with Sera is very different depending if I am her friend or romance, or a "posh" person who gives her hell. Lots of people love talking about Garrus as a pal/bro. When you can be friends or rivals or lovers with characters, it shows depth. Most games pre-plan your relationship with someone with a few going character X is a friend/Enemy. But Bioware allows a lot of nuance. True, the differences looking back are minor but they have a definite feel of comraderie vs romance and for some characters that is built in if they are attracted to you. I do feel they are a bit formulaic at times, but not as much as they are argued to be. Become pals with Alistair, marry him, and romance Leliana on the side? Sure. Have sex with Jack and then barely talk to her for the rest of the trip? oh yeah. Mass Effect does need to work on formulas which are way worse then DA, but I feel like if they can even make them similar it will be a long way to giving it a more organic feel. Right... I think the best way to do that would be to have major NPCs a)interact more with each other in relation to the main character and approach the MC more often for different reasons... which are both things BW said the'd incorporate into MEA. We'll see how that works out...
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Revan Reborn on Feb 25, 2017 22:45:31 GMT
Agreed. My biggest issue with BioWare games is that the relationships usually always go the same way. Have dialogue chats and grow closer together over the period of the game. The world is about to end and you have sex right before the final mission. The end. I'd like to see them get away from such a stringent format and make the relationships a lot more dynamic and realistic. There should never be a point where we should be able to predict what's going to happen next. For ME this is mostly true, but I disagree about Dragon Age. In DA:O, DA2, and DA:I they all have their relationship sex scenes before the final mission. Some don't have sex scenes, and some move in with you. They do have repercussions for your actions, in fact every single one judges what you do and your general character. I mean Iron Bull in Tresspasser is proof enough, but making Cassandra Divine? Alistair and non-nobles, Anders?! I am always shocked that people dissmiss how much characters react to you and have repercussions for actions, or will do their own thing regardless of your wants. I think it is because most of us Metagame so dismiss that Bioware have probably the most complex romances anywhere in gaming. Perhaps I'm stating the obvious here, but this is a Mass Effect game, not Dragon Age. The writing team is entirely separate, so it's likely more reasonable to use the ME trilogy as a template rather than DA. We do know that BioWare is trying to have more variety in relationships, like DAI, but we really don't know what the structure and how they are going to function will look like. DAO is an exception, not the rule, only because "romance" was driven by the terrible gift mechanic. So of course, if you had enough gifts you could romance your LI before getting near the end of the game. I wouldn't necessarily say that's "better." It's also true your LI can move in with you in DAII (at least I think Isabela does), but it actually doesn't have any kind of impact on the relationship or the story. I honestly don't even remember the romances in that game very well, due to the fact everybody is wearing underwear. DAI has a bit more variety, although I think that's largely dependent on your gender and orientation. For males, there's only Josephine and Cassandra, and I don't remember being able to romance either one fully until near the end of the game. It may not have been right before the last mission, given DAI is more open that previous ME games and had to work slightly differently due to approval, but it certainly wasn't something that happened early on for either. Regardless, I think we can all agree BioWare can always improve. I've never felt their relationship structure to be all that realistic in any game, DAI included. MEA is going to have more relationships than ever and they are going to have more variety than ever. We already know some LI will definitely have sex scenes early than others. Some won't have any. That, in itself, tells me BioWare is going in a much better direction as all relationships shouldn't be the same or follow a similar path.
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N3
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, Mass Effect Andromeda
PSN: JayKay91939
Posts: 666 Likes: 1,405
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by JayKay on Feb 26, 2017 6:07:06 GMT
Ah man if only... I want to believe one day, we will be getting a Ruby Rose type of romance from Bioware. Also I would be even more salty finding it after that GI video but yes really poor choice of words there for people that wanted to romance Cora as FemRyder. What's the female equivalent of blue balls? Anyway speaking of blue I'll have to go blue again in this game. Wanna bet that Dr. Lexi won't be a LI? Stiff lower lips? ..... except they did with Jack. And Kaliyo. And arguably Thane, Miranda, Vette, and Tali, if intentions and rumors are to be believed. Is it really fair to say Jack was bisexual? She certainly had a "idgaf" attitude, but that doesn't necessarily mean she was interested in women. She may have said she experimented, but I honestly don't remember. Didn't Jack have a boyfriend previously when you talk to her? It's been a while since I've played ME2. SWTOR is irrelevant considering there are no same sex romances at all. "Intentions and rumors" are nothing more than unsubstantiated conjecture. I certainly never had the impression Miranda was interested in women and Thane had a wife and son (doesn't mean he wasn't a closet gay obviously). Flirting, which is what you may be referring to, doesn't necessarily suggest preference for a gender. Traynor was rather flirtatious but made it abundantly clear she was only interested in women. From what I understand, both Ashley and Kaiden were meant to be bi originally in ME1, but it was changed fairly early on because they decided that making them interested in only one gender would help encourage players to go back and try different things and get different decisions. Miranda, Jacob, Thane and Tali were also meant to be bi as well: the first two were written out for similar reasons, and no one knows why Thane and Tali's were taken, especially since Tali has the same sort of confession in ME2 with female Shepard as with a male one (rumor is that the voice actress felt uncomfortable with it, but it's very unsubstianted). He's a rather hack journalist, in my personal opinion. I've facepalmed at a few of his articles because it's either just downright biased, doesn't make sense, or he isn't informed. What's ironic is GI did a cover story back in November where they went to BioWare Montreal's office for MEA. Javy wasn't part of the group that went, but you'd think he would at least be up to date on news his office was producing about his supposed "favorite" franchise. Yet, he didn't actually seem to know anything about MEA. That's why I just kind of laughed at his remarks because they sounded so half-assed. The briefing that Cora narrates, alone, just does not fit with his idea of who Cora is. I honestly think he judged her solely based on looks and nothing else.Think so too, think he's seen the hairstyle (which obviously literally everyone had already seen too) and then compare her to Ruby Rose considering she has had similar hair. Plus compared her to Jack simply because they are both female biotics. I literally couldn't even watch that GI interview, that guy was just spouting so much clear rubbish that I figured I wouldn't waste my time. To be fair, looking at the two...I can kind of see it, not just with the similar hair style, but in terms of nose, cheekbones, and jawline...I can see the similaries. It's not perfect, of course, none of the Bioware face models are, but if they came out and said that Ruby inspired Cora's look, I wouldn't be terribly surprised.
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Revan Reborn on Feb 26, 2017 6:20:03 GMT
Is it really fair to say Jack was bisexual? She certainly had a "idgaf" attitude, but that doesn't necessarily mean she was interested in women. She may have said she experimented, but I honestly don't remember. Didn't Jack have a boyfriend previously when you talk to her? It's been a while since I've played ME2. SWTOR is irrelevant considering there are no same sex romances at all. "Intentions and rumors" are nothing more than unsubstantiated conjecture. I certainly never had the impression Miranda was interested in women and Thane had a wife and son (doesn't mean he wasn't a closet gay obviously). Flirting, which is what you may be referring to, doesn't necessarily suggest preference for a gender. Traynor was rather flirtatious but made it abundantly clear she was only interested in women. From what I understand, both Ashley and Kaiden were meant to be bi originally in ME1, but it was changed fairly early on because they decided that making them interested in only one gender would help encourage players to go back and try different things and get different decisions. Miranda, Jacob, Thane and Tali were also meant to be bi as well: the first two were written out for similar reasons, and no one knows why Thane and Tali's were taken, especially since Tali has the same sort of confession in ME2 with female Shepard as with a male one (rumor is that the voice actress felt uncomfortable with it, but it's very unsubstianted). Think so too, think he's seen the hairstyle (which obviously literally everyone had already seen too) and then compare her to Ruby Rose considering she has had similar hair. Plus compared her to Jack simply because they are both female biotics. I literally couldn't even watch that GI interview, that guy was just spouting so much clear rubbish that I figured I wouldn't waste my time. To be fair, looking at the two...I can kind of see it, not just with the similar hair style, but in terms of nose, cheekbones, and jawline...I can see the similaries. It's not perfect, of course, none of the Bioware face models are, but if they came out and said that Ruby inspired Cora's look, I wouldn't be terribly surprised. It's also quite possible that BioWare wanted to avoid the "player-sexual" issue that DAII had. The only reason that game treated romances as it did was due to time constraints and the writers not having the capacity to invest more time into fleshing the characters out. Not to mention, some of these characters (Miranda, Jacob, etc.) wouldn't necessarily make sense being bisexual. There really isn't any indication they would have been open to that idea, which is part of the reason those options may have been scrapped. We aren't referring to Cora's actual appearance. The GI interview was talking about Cora's personality, which is why we are absolutely disagreeing that she's anything like Ruby Rose.
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N3
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, Mass Effect Andromeda
PSN: JayKay91939
Posts: 666 Likes: 1,405
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, Mass Effect Andromeda
JayKay91939
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Post by JayKay on Feb 26, 2017 7:28:37 GMT
It's also quite possible that BioWare wanted to avoid the "player-sexual" issue that DAII had. The only reason that game treated romances as it did was due to time constraints and the writers not having the capacity to invest more time into fleshing the characters out. Not to mention, some of these characters (Miranda, Jacob, etc.) wouldn't necessarily make sense being bisexual. There really isn't any indication they would have been open to that idea, which is part of the reason those options may have been scrapped. We aren't referring to Cora's actual appearance. The GI interview was talking about Cora's personality, which is why we are absolutely disagreeing that she's anything like Ruby Rose. That is a good point with the "player-sexual" thing. However, I have to say that I really don't get or like the whole "doesn't make sense for (insert person here) to be (sexual orientation)" argument. I mean, why are some people gay, or straight, or bisexual? I think some people do sort of inherently have it as part of their personality, but for others it's just one facet that is just a part of us. That's true in these games too -- Dorian is the former and Sera is the latter. Basically, I can understand them making Cora straight in that Bioware tends to want a fairly balanced mix of orientations and they decided she would work as a straight option. But I don't see why who she is as a character can't also be bisexual, or lesbian, or anything in between, really. And as for Ruby, I remember him being pretty vague on what he meant with Cora -- since, like others have said, it really didn't look like he was paying much attention or gave even a singular fuck about what he saw -- but yeah, it is a little ironic if she is the poster girl for straight male relationships in the game if her looks are based off an androgynous lesbian.
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Revan Reborn on Feb 26, 2017 7:42:54 GMT
It's also quite possible that BioWare wanted to avoid the "player-sexual" issue that DAII had. The only reason that game treated romances as it did was due to time constraints and the writers not having the capacity to invest more time into fleshing the characters out. Not to mention, some of these characters (Miranda, Jacob, etc.) wouldn't necessarily make sense being bisexual. There really isn't any indication they would have been open to that idea, which is part of the reason those options may have been scrapped. We aren't referring to Cora's actual appearance. The GI interview was talking about Cora's personality, which is why we are absolutely disagreeing that she's anything like Ruby Rose. That is a good point with the "player-sexual" thing. However, I have to say that I really don't get or like the whole "doesn't make sense for (insert person here) to be (sexual orientation)" argument. I mean, why are some people gay, or straight, or bisexual? I think some people do sort of inherently have it as part of their personality, but for others it's just one facet that is just a part of us. That's true in these games too -- Dorian is the former and Sera is the latter. Basically, I can understand them making Cora straight in that Bioware tends to want a fairly balanced mix of orientations and they decided she would work as a straight option. But I don't see why who she is as a character can't also be bisexual, or lesbian, or anything in between, really. And as for Ruby, I remember him being pretty vague on what he meant with Cora -- since, like others have said, it really didn't look like he was paying much attention or gave even a singular fuck about what he saw -- but yeah, it is a little ironic if she is the poster girl for straight male relationships in the game if her looks are based off an androgynous lesbian. Dorian is flamboyantly gay. I wouldn't necessarily say that Sera being a lesbian is subdued. There was never any dialogue in DAI that ever suggested Sera was interested in males. My point is if someone was interested in a certain gender (or both) there would likely be mannerisms or certain gestures that would suggest an interest. You can definitely (generally) pick up on whether someone just wants to be a friend, or something more. It ultimately comes down to a matter of opinion, but it just never seemed apparent that Miranda or Jacob were bisexual. Someone like Isabela, on the other hand, was pretty frank about her preferences. We don't know enough about Cora's character to determine what her sexual orientation would be. My point is if someone has a preference for one gender (or both), there should be something in the writing that gives credence to that idea. Otherwise, you run into the issue in DAII where most of the companions were "bisexual," but it didn't really fit with some of the characters as well as it did others. BioWare got huge backlash on DAII from bisexual fans who were calling BioWare's execution of romances in DAII "bisexual erasure." Hopefully that makes sense. Considering he also thought Liam was "Kaiden 2.0" and Peebe was "horny," I'll let you be the judge of what you think he meant. From my perspective, he was judging her purely on her looks and trying to categorize what kind of person she'd be based solely on how she looked. A woman doesn't need to have long, flowing hair to be a heterosexual, or anything else.
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N6
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Prime Posts: 19631
Posts: 6,296 Likes: 8,156
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by The Elder King on Feb 26, 2017 9:07:11 GMT
Yeah, some of the assumptions made in the GI video were strange. Expecially because from the words of developers and other previews we do know Liam is a bit of a hothead, which is a direct contrast from Kaidan. The part about Peebee might've been a bit suggestive (others mentioned that as well), but to say the game is 'horny as hell' for that is a bit extreme. We had similar lines before from certain characters. In the end though, it's normal that people see different things in characters. I just find the comparison with Jack strange since on a surface level she's clearly more similar to Miranda/Ashley. Unless the build had reached the point where her 'freaky' side would show up, but I think that is more related to sec and there wasn't in the buil . Her being a biotic might've been another reason he made the comparison.
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Heero the pilot
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Post by Revan Reborn on Feb 26, 2017 9:36:06 GMT
Yeah, some of the assumptions made in the GI video were strange. Expecially because from the words of developers and other previews we do know Liam is a bit of a hothead, which is a direct contrast from Kaidan. The part about Peebee might've been a bit suggestive (others mentioned that as well), but to say the game is 'horny as hell' for that is a bit extreme. We had similar lines before from certain characters. In the end though, it's normal that people see different things in characters. I just find the comparison with Jack strange since on a surface level she's clearly more similar to Miranda/Ashley. Unless the build had reached the point where her 'freaky' side would show up, but I think that is more related to sec and there wasn't in the buil . Her being a biotic might've been another reason he made the comparison. I actually got a response from Javy on YouTube and he claimed he had been working all day on various MEA-related articles and then he was put on the show. Whether his excuse is credible or not, even he gave me the impression some of his rhetoric was probably a bit over-the-top. To be honest, I didn't get the impression he really talked to any companions as he largely focused on the combat and exploration. Regardless of whether his comments were credible or not, he at least admitted he enjoyed the game and wanted to play more of it.
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N6
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Prime Posts: 19631
Posts: 6,296 Likes: 8,156
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Post by The Elder King on Feb 26, 2017 9:41:59 GMT
Fair enough, he might've spent more time in combat then in he Tempest. Unfortunately, given the limited time, they had to make decisions in how to spend it.
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Post by Lady Artifice on Feb 26, 2017 9:42:14 GMT
I totally disagree with the entire premise of sexual orientation needing to be indicated with some arbitrary element of a character's personality, like some of the devs claim it should.
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Post by Revan Reborn on Feb 26, 2017 9:47:55 GMT
I totally disagree with the entire premise of sexual orientation needing to be indicated with some arbitrary element of a character's personality, like some of the devs claim it should. While I understand what you are stating, how would you then fix something like the "player-sexual" issue? If there are no indications of a preference, then we merely have the same problem DAII had and bisexual fans will be offended by the implications of "bisexual erasure." Not to mention, others would be upset because squadmates wouldn't have an actual preference, but would bend to the player's will. That's hardly a solution. The whole reason BioWare even started this was largely in response to fan feedback. The indicator doesn't have to be blatantly obvious, with examples such as Dorian or Isabela. I'd argue Steve Cortez was a fantastic way of doing a same sex romance that wasn't over-the-top or stereotypical. The indication can be far more subtle, but I don't believe it would make any sense to eliminate it entirely.
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N6
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Prime Posts: 19631
Posts: 6,296 Likes: 8,156
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by The Elder King on Feb 26, 2017 9:55:34 GMT
I think the problem is that people see this in different ways. Some are fine with how Sera is dealt with and don't like Dorian was rapresented. Others felt the opposite. They won't satisfy everyone with either approach.
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Heero the pilot
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Post by Revan Reborn on Feb 26, 2017 9:59:40 GMT
I think the problem is that people see this in different ways. Some are fine with how Sera is dealt with and don't like Dorian was rapresented. Others felt the opposite. They won't satisfy everyone with either approach. It is a catch 22. I just don't see how going back to the DAII approach, where the player determines the squadmate's sexual orientation, is a solution. I think it is better and makes sense that companions have their own preference. It makes them more realistic and believable. The only practical way of achieving that is to show in the writing that the companion has a preference one way or the other. Otherwise, I don't see how you solve this issue.
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The Elder King
N6
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Prime Posts: 19631
Posts: 6,296 Likes: 8,156
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by The Elder King on Feb 26, 2017 10:16:32 GMT
I think the problem is that people see this in different ways. Some are fine with how Sera is dealt with and don't like Dorian was rapresented. Others felt the opposite. They won't satisfy everyone with either approach. It is a catch 22. I just don't see how going back to the DAII approach, where the player determines the squadmate's sexual orientation, is a solution. I think it is better and makes sense that companions have their own preference. It makes them more realistic and believable. The only practical way of achieving that is to show in the writing that the companion has a preference one way or the other. Otherwise, I don't see how you solve this issue. I think Gaider cleared the issue by saying they were all bisexual in DA2, regardless of what their original intentions were. They're not going back to that approach, no matter if people think they were bisexual or player sexual, either way.
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Post by Lady Artifice on Feb 26, 2017 10:18:31 GMT
I totally disagree with the entire premise of sexual orientation needing to be indicated with some arbitrary element of a character's personality, like some of the devs claim it should. While I understand what you are stating, how would you then fix something like the "player-sexual" issue? If there are no indications of a preference, then we merely have the same problem DAII had and bisexual fans will be offended by the implications of "bisexual erasure." The whole reason BioWare even started this was largely in response to fan feedback. The indicator doesn't have to be blatantly obvious, with examples such as Dorian or Isabela. It can be far more subtle, but I don't believe it would make any sense to eliminate it entirely. I don't particularly agree that there ever was a player sexual issue in need of fixing. If, in fact, there were players who claimed that the mere act of portraying four bisexual characters in a group of seven equated to bisexual erasure, then I think their perspective was very strange. But I didn't actually see a lot of people saying that. Granted there were concerns about a specific scene involving Anders, where he downplayed his interest in whichever gender Hawke didn't happen to be. But just as many people recognized that Anders was motivated in that moment much more by his interest in Hawke specifically, than anything else. While that scene was often scrutinized for a lot of reasons, I didn't observe "bisexual erasure" being a common criticism of the game overall. What I did see happen was portions of the player base engaging in what could be labelled bisexual erasure, such as when players decided that Merrill or Fenris were exclusively straight or exclusively gay in their particular playthrough universe. That kind of thing might turn my stomach a little, but players are free to think what they want, and for the most part the devs are not responsible for it. Now, I did see a lot of people claiming that the four bisexuals in a single social group just strained their suspension of disbelief beyond endurance, but I've always found that silly--especially considering how many other things made that group incredibly improbable, even within the context of a fantastical universe. Obviously there should be indications of whether or not a romanceable character is responsive to a player character as pertains to their gender, but the idea that it needs to somehow be signaled or coincide with a particular personality type, as Mac Walters implied, is extremely limiting.
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Post by Lady Artifice on Feb 26, 2017 10:23:01 GMT
I think the problem is that people see this in different ways. Some are fine with how Sera is dealt with and don't like Dorian was rapresented. Others felt the opposite. They won't satisfy everyone with either approach. It is a catch 22. I just don't see how going back to the DAII approach, where the player determines the squadmate's sexual orientation, is a solution. I think it is better and makes sense that companions have their own preference. It makes them more realistic and believable. The only practical way of achieving that is to show in the writing that the companion has a preference one way or the other. Otherwise, I don't see how you solve this issue. Ah, but there's the problem. Regardless of the perception some players indulge in of shaping the character's sexual orientation themselves, it was just perception. In a male Hawke playthrough, Fenris still flirts and can have a fling with Isabella. In a female Hawke playthrough, Merrill still admires the Qunari males body types. Some members of the player base did try to pretend that the characters bisexuality was subject to being altered, but the game didn't accommodate that as much as those players believed.
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Post by The Elder King on Feb 26, 2017 10:24:44 GMT
It is a catch 22. I just don't see how going back to the DAII approach, where the player determines the squadmate's sexual orientation, is a solution. I think it is better and makes sense that companions have their own preference. It makes them more realistic and believable. The only practical way of achieving that is to show in the writing that the companion has a preference one way or the other. Otherwise, I don't see how you solve this issue. Ah, but there's the problem. Regardless of the perception some players indulge in of shaping the character's sexual orientation themselves, it was just perception. In a male Hawke playthrough, Fenris still flirts and can have a fling with Isabella. In a female Hawke playthrough, Merrill still admires the Qunari males body types. Some members of the player base did try to pretend that the characters bisexuality was subject to being altered, but the game didn't accommodate that as much as those players believed. Yeah, three out of four LI shown that they were bisexual. Anders might be the only one that doesn't count, but even without the Karl line it was clear to me he had feelings for him.
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Post by Crim on Feb 26, 2017 13:23:33 GMT
I totally disagree with the entire premise of sexual orientation needing to be indicated with some arbitrary element of a character's personality, like some of the devs claim it should. It has to make sense for the character™
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Post by yourfunnyuncle on Feb 26, 2017 13:40:48 GMT
What did Mac Walters say, exactly?
Whenever you have a large group defined by one characteristic, be that straight men, lesbians, RPG lovers or whatever, you have to expect a huge amount of variation among them. "Making sense for the character" is a valid reason to go with certain storylines or not, but that should surely be decided based on all that character's traits and back story, not a single part.
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Post by Lady Artifice on Feb 26, 2017 14:05:39 GMT
What did Mac Walters say, exactly? Whenever you have a large group defined by one characteristic, be that straight men, lesbians, RPG lovers or whatever, you have to expect a huge amount of variation among them. "Making sense for the character" is a valid reason to go with certain storylines or not, but that should surely be decided based on all that character's traits and back story, not a single part. He was pretty vague about it, actually. "It [sexuality] has to make sense for the character." I don't know for certain what he means by that, but to me, it sounds like he's saying that he believes something in the character's personality or background has to sort of cooperate with their sexual orientation. And personally, I don't think it does. Writers really like to create catalysts for their characters every trait or idiosyncrasy a lot of the time (Indiana Jones hates snakes because he fell into a train car full of them one time, even though there are plenty of people who just hate snakes because it's a normal evolutionary impulse). I don't blame Mac for wanting to account for things, but I think he's boxing himself in.
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Post by Crim on Feb 26, 2017 14:23:18 GMT
What did Mac Walters say, exactly? Whenever you have a large group defined by one characteristic, be that straight men, lesbians, RPG lovers or whatever, you have to expect a huge amount of variation among them. "Making sense for the character" is a valid reason to go with certain storylines or not, but that should surely be decided based on all that character's traits and back story, not a single part. He was pretty vague about it, actually. "It [sexuality] has to make sense for the character." I don't know for certain what he means by that, but to me, it sounds like he's saying that he believes something in the character's personality or background has to sort of cooperate with their sexual orientation. Everyone needs a reason to be such and such a sexual orientation, silly.
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Post by yourfunnyuncle on Feb 26, 2017 15:13:43 GMT
He was pretty vague about it, actually. "It [sexuality] has to make sense for the character." I don't know for certain what he means by that, but to me, it sounds like he's saying that he believes something in the character's personality or background has to sort of cooperate with their sexual orientation. Everyone needs a reason to be such and such a sexual orientation, silly. Yeah... Sexual orientation might play into other aspects of a character's personality, but I can't see how it works in the other direction.
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