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Post by B. Hieronymus Da on Dec 6, 2021 1:44:55 GMT
Alec Baldwin's latest story is that he let go of the hammer. And his latest claim is that the only thing of interest is who put the "live round" in the gun.
My opinion is that he probably didn't intend to harm anyone. That would certainly not be a suspicion high on my list. But he did do a lot of really stupid things that should amount to cause for charging him with crimes.
If you let the hammer go (with the thumb) on a SA revolver, then what will happen is that: 1: If you pull it all the way back, it should become cocked and rest in cocked position. 2: If not pulled all the way, on a traditional pattern mechanism, the hammer will be caught on the 'half cock'. 3: If not pulled all the way, on a modernized mechanism the hammer will be blocked by some kind of interrupter safety.
The only way the revolver will fire, is: 1: If the hammer wasn't pulled back far enough to clear the half cock, and the cartridge primer is soft and sensitive. 2: ...Or if the mechanism breaks, which can theoretically happen with the 'half cock', but is very improbable. 3: ...Or if the trigger is being pulled. And then common sense should tell you that you're firing the gun.
The key point being that it's most likely that the trigger was pulled. Is Alec stupid enough to hold the trigger pulled? Well, he's leftwing, so yes, probably, and an actor, so yes again, probably.
Personally, I've never "let the hammer go", not once in my entire life. Not even on those decocker DA pistols that were popular in the 1980s. Like the Sigs. It would just feel so wrong to trust the interrupter. So much that I've always lowered the hammer slowly and softly with my thumb. On all guns with exposed hammer. But okay, Alec is not me.
If it's the case that there was in fact a live round in the gun - which seems probable, but I've missed that the forensics have said so, if they have - then it's of some interest how that happened to be, sure. But it's otherwise a moot point of this case. Both Jon Hexum and Brandon Lee died from blanks being discharged, not live rounds. Gun safety has to concern more than live rounds. There is no such thing as a "safe or unloaded gun", and even if there are, most accidental discharges happens with "unloaded guns" anyway, thus you always point guns in a safe direction, loaded or not.
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Post by mousestalker on Dec 6, 2021 2:21:26 GMT
As a PSA, here are the three rules for handling a firearm:
1. Always treat every firearm as though it is loaded. 2. Never point a firearm at something you do not wish to destroy. 3. Do not put your finger on the trigger unless you intend to shoot at that instant.
Even if you never intend to hold a firearm, it's important that you know the rules. Because that way fewer people will be hurt or killed. If Mr Baldwin had followed the rules, a woman would still be alive.
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Post by mousestalker on Dec 6, 2021 2:35:34 GMT
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Evil
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Post by Evil on Dec 6, 2021 3:06:52 GMT
I'm 99% certain alec ballsack is lying though his teeth to try and pin the blame on literally anybody but himself.
That said, there is a remote possibility of a hammer only discharge occuring. Especially if an actual real antique revolver was used instead of a good quality modern reproduction. Its surprisingly common for old guns to get repurposed like that.
Even when they were new, Colt revolvers were notorious for being able to be fired even when the hammer was lowered, just by hitting the back of the hammer. They were so notoriously unsafe that it became customary to only load 5 chambers and leave the 6th empty to allow for an empty chamber carry.
I suspect that was one of the reasons the officers of the British empire mostly stopped buying Colts and stuck with Webley's after a few years of both being privately bought by officers fairly regularly.
Add in a century or so of wear and tear on the guns internals and that prop gun could legitimately be a hammer only discharge just waiting to happen, depending on if it was a repurposed antique, and which EXACT design it was. Not all designs were unsafe.
"News" articles have been utter dogshit at providing real details and facts regarding the alec ballsack incident instead of gossip. Best I can determine is that it was a single acton Colt revolver of some type, chambered in .45.
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Post by Lavochkin on Dec 6, 2021 3:41:36 GMT
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Post by B. Hieronymus Da on Dec 6, 2021 21:34:44 GMT
Even when they were new, Colt revolvers were notorious for being able to be fired even when the hammer was lowered, just by hitting the back of the hammer. They were so notoriously unsafe that it became customary to only load 5 chambers and leave the 6th empty to allow for an empty chamber carry. I believe this notion stems from more modern days. When untrained users acquired these guns, and expected them to work like revolvers started to work with and after S&W 'Military & Police' and the Colt 'New Service' introduced the passive hammer block safety in 1915. And these are the first of modern DA revolvers, as still used today. And beside the swing out cylinders and double action triggers, they introduced some hidden magic. The passive safety that I also call interrupter or hammer block safety. This prevents the firing pin from reaching the primer, unless the trigger is pulled back. Thus they can be carried with 6 cartridges. (And this kind of safety – the firing pin cannot reach the primer unless the trigger is pulled – is normal today on all modern gun designs, even pistols.) These Colt 1873 aka SAA revolvers originated when there was a different understanding of safe handling. Ever since the percussion cap was invented, and caplock pistols replaced flintlocks, everybody understood that it was a bad idea to rest the hammer on the primer. It was kinda obvious. Why should they expect some hidden magic? And this understanding was inherited by users of percussion cap revolvers, and then again by cartridge revolvers. So no, these revolvers were not notoriously unsafe. They just need an earlier, more original and different understanding of handling, than what later gun designs did. So if you were actively shooting the gun at the moment, for practice, fun or other, you left the 1873 gun in 'half cock', the position which you had to have in order to load the gun. The gun cannot be fired from half cock. The trigger does not move. To fire, you have to pull the hammer out of half cock. It's not really a 'safety' though, because with sufficient violence, smacking the gun's hammer against a rock, or taking a heavy hammer to it, the half cock may break and the gun will fire. So for loaded carry, the 1873 pattern is a 5-round revolver. You rest the hammer on an empty chamber. Not because the gun was notoriously unsafe, but because that was proper gun handling. Cowboy romantics tell all kinds of stories about what was stored in the sixth chamber, but a cartridge it ain't.
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Post by B. Hieronymus Da on Dec 6, 2021 21:43:02 GMT
I suspect that was one of the reasons the officers of the British empire mostly stopped buying Colts and stuck with Webley's after a few years of both being privately bought by officers fairly regularly. I don't really know much about the history of British revolvers, but I suspect you're conflating things? And I also don't believe it has anything at all to do with gun safety. My perception is that the popularity of Colts with British officers, concerns pre-cartridge, cap & ball revolvers. Like the very famous 1847 Walker, 1848 Dragoon, 1851 Navy, 1860 Army, !861 Navy. These Colts were pretty much completely outstanding in their days. I don't know that there were any British gun even remotely comparable? Webley's contender was absolute garbage. And the popularity of the Colts is particularly obvious because the British officers needed to purchase them privately, for their own money. Anyway, the invention of the cartridge shakes things up. A lot of 1851, 1860 and 1861 Colts get converted to cartridges. You see this type of gun in western movies like “The Good, the Bad and the Ugly”. And the logical iteration, Colt 1872 Army (1872 “Open Top”). And then comes the Colt 1873, aka SAA, which again is outstanding and sweeps most competition aside. But meanwhile, Webley have acquired S&W licenses and merged with smaller inventor to acquire other technologies. Colt and Webley, both, have double action revolvers ready 1877. But while Colt's double action model never gain a foothold in the market, due to the huge popularity of the 1873 in USA, things are different in Britain. The SAA haven't gained fame yet, and they don't have any good cartridge revolvers except Webley's few and various S&W copies. And that is when Webley launch their Webley-Pryse No 4 in 1877. And no matter how good, strong, safe and reliable the 1873 Colt was, double action and fast reload, with the top-break action, makes more sense to British officers' needs. That's really the deal, IMO.
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Evil
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Post by Evil on Dec 7, 2021 0:36:34 GMT
Even when they were new, Colt revolvers were notorious for being able to be fired even when the hammer was lowered, just by hitting the back of the hammer. They were so notoriously unsafe that it became customary to only load 5 chambers and leave the 6th empty to allow for an empty chamber carry. I believe this notion stems from more modern days. When untrained users acquired these guns, and expected them to work like revolvers started to work with and after S&W 'Military & Police' and the Colt 'New Service' introduced the passive hammer block safety in 1915. And these are the first of modern DA revolvers, as still used today. This might well be an additional reason for the bad reputation, but it isn't the original. It was indeed known that resting the hammer over the primer wasn't a good idea back then, but the empty cylinder carry was a workaround solution for the problem, not the originally intended solution. Colt (and several other companies too) originally intended to have users rest the hammer a millimeter or two short of full drop, held in place by a notch and a sear in the trigger assembly. A very fragile setup that would often break, causing several people who had carried it in the originally intended method unintended discharges. To be fair to Colt, it was a common fault with any revolver brand that relied on the trigger sear for safety instead of a trigger bar, they just got the rep as a consequence of selling so well, thus getting more malfunctions. For any 3rd parties reading this that want a brief explanation of what we're talking about in video form:
Hickok45 also makes brief reference to the fragile system around the midpoint of the video, by way of brief citation. Karl and Ian have mentioned the intended setup in greater detail in their videos, but good luck finding the relevant quotes in amongst thousands of hours of footage.
And regarding the tangent about Webley vs Colt competition for officer sales: I was refering to the cartridge era, when both brands were neck and neck for a while, and both putting out the more well known and respected models.
I'm not really familiar with the pre-cartridge stuff TBH. I don't doubt that double action and top break were the biggest factors in deciding the eventual winner, but I reckon Webleys adoption of a trigger bar to prevent these issues was a not insignificant factor too.
Anyway, if ballsacks revolver was a real antique one repurposed as a prop, its not completely impossible for it to have gone off just by him fucking around with the hammer, as demonstrated above. Still reckon he's lying his ass off tho, and theres still the whole issue of pointing the gun at the victims in the first place.
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Post by B. Hieronymus Da on Dec 8, 2021 20:29:20 GMT
Anyway, if ballsacks revolver was a real antique one repurposed as a prop, its not completely impossible for it to have gone off just by him fucking around with the hammer, as demonstrated above. Still reckon he's lying his ass off tho, and theres still the whole issue of pointing the gun at the victims in the first place. I think the sear spring must be broken for that. And then you'd certainly notice that when you tried to load it. If the half cock position is broken, you can't load the gun, so you'd notice that too. Then there's the sear, same thing, you can't load the gun. It can break when he handles it of course. Forensics will have their say. I'm still curious if the gun was really loaded with a live round. Everybody assumes it, but I'll wait for forensics.
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Post by Evil on Dec 8, 2021 23:00:23 GMT
Anyway, if ballsacks revolver was a real antique one repurposed as a prop, its not completely impossible for it to have gone off just by him fucking around with the hammer, as demonstrated above. Still reckon he's lying his ass off tho, and theres still the whole issue of pointing the gun at the victims in the first place. I think the sear spring must be broken for that. And then you'd certainly notice that when you tried to load it. If the half cock position is broken, you can't load the gun, so you'd notice that too. Then there's the sear, same thing, you can't load the gun. It can break when he handles it of course. Forensics will have their say. I'm still curious if the gun was really loaded with a live round. Everybody assumes it, but I'll wait for forensics.
Since one discharge was able to inflict an entry-exit wound and still have enouth spare energy to injure the director with the same projectile, I'm skeptical about it being anything but an actual bullet. Sure, a blank could push some sort of random barrel obstruction out with lethal force, but I highly doubt it'd be able to penetrate like that.
Also, I'd expect a random barrel obstruction related incident to wreck the barrel when the obstruction gets ripped through it. Old school revolvers weren't as durable as the overbuilt stuff we have now, our stuffs built on the modern day assumption that a sizable percentage of revolver buyers will be firing extra spicy custom loads.
If an explosive barrel clearance had happened, I'd expect this whole farce to be reported by the media as a firearm malfunction, not a negligent shooting.
The only halfway plausable theory I can think of would involve the people that were shooting live ammo off-set with the prop guns having a squib, leaving a round lodged in the barrel, then ballsack pushing the squib out the barrel with a blank, mayyyyyyyyyyyybeeeeeeeee that could work?
I think forensics would be able to tell a blank from an actual live round after its been fired by looking for the crimping, but it ain't exactly an expert on the matter.
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Post by B. Hieronymus Da on Dec 8, 2021 23:07:39 GMT
I think forensics would be able to tell a blank from an actual live round after its been fired by looking for the crimping, but it ain't exactly an expert on the matter. Of course. And they can look at the bodies. (who says it was the same projectile? What about different fragments? I'm not trying to be contrarian here. It's just that about all details which I have not heard facts, but only assumptions, I want to keep possibilities open.) ...If they have reported anything at all on the matter, I've so far missed it. Also, don't hang up too much on it being an old gun, made from old steel. It's been in almost continuous production all the time. They're still made today. I don't know anything about collector values on the really old 1873s, but it doesn't seem logical to use an antique gun, when new ones are widely available.
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mousestalker
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Post by mousestalker on Dec 9, 2021 15:17:05 GMT
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Post by General Mahad on Dec 12, 2021 18:37:18 GMT
What are your guys thoughts about zip guns? It's a field that is fascinating, especially 3D printed firearms like the FGC-9 popping up everywhere from war zones to strict gun control nations:
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Post by Giant Ambush Beetle on Dec 13, 2021 16:46:38 GMT
What are your guys thoughts about zip guns? It's a field that is fascinating, especially 3D printed firearms like the FGC-9 popping up everywhere from war zones to strict gun control nations: I don't know, I find a situation where you have easy access to ammunition but access to guns is very limited kind of weird. I imagine in most countries where its very hard to get guns its just as hard to get the ammo for it, making the ability to manufacture guns yourself a little pointless if you cannot manufacture ammo - which is WAY harder than making guns due to very complex chemical processes involved. ______ Also, sad story - I wanted to get me a Taurus revolver in .44 Magnum, sweet gun - or so it thought. Went to the gun store to buy one - but when I inspected the gun my enthusiasm faded quickly. The cylinder stop was really loose. Not good with a powerful caliber. Weirdly enough, all the guns I considered buying lately had some near-defect and bad if not disastrous quality in fit and finish.
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Post by General Mahad on Dec 13, 2021 21:36:54 GMT
What are your guys thoughts about zip guns? It's a field that is fascinating, especially 3D printed firearms like the FGC-9 popping up everywhere from war zones to strict gun control nations: I don't know, I find a situation where you have easy access to ammunition but access to guns is very limited kind of weird. I imagine in most countries where its very hard to get guns its just as hard to get the ammo for it, making the ability to manufacture guns yourself a little pointless if you cannot manufacture ammo - which is WAY harder than making guns due to very complex chemical processes involved. ______ According to the 3D gun making community, they have several projects on this subject from making casings out of plastic (even .50), testing a smokeless powder substitute made out of every day chemicals and even creating caseless, electronically fired ammo using blackpowder.
It's interesting the different ways they are approaching this problem though the firearms themselves look like something out of Borderlands and I'm not sure how to feel about that.
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Post by Lavochkin on Dec 16, 2021 12:08:30 GMT
What are your guys thoughts about zip guns? It's a field that is fascinating, especially 3D printed firearms like the FGC-9 popping up everywhere from war zones to strict gun control nations: ______ Also, sad story - I wanted to get me a Taurus revolver in .44 Magnum, sweet gun - or so it thought. Went to the gun store to buy one - but when I inspected the gun my enthusiasm faded quickly. The cylinder stop was really loose. Not good with a powerful caliber. Weirdly enough, all the guns I considered buying lately had some near-defect and bad if not disastrous quality in fit and finish. Perhaps that shop had a defective one? My Taurus .44 works just fine but i haven't shot it in ages, and even back then .44 mag wasnt' exactly cheap and i don't even want to imagine how much it is now. RE: Zip guns and the like, i reckon the easiest ones to produce are single shot slamfire shotguns with any number of improvised ammo. Of course, if one is crafty with hardware store parts, they can make their own SMG the old fashioned way like this fellow did.
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Post by Giant Ambush Beetle on Dec 16, 2021 20:02:24 GMT
______ Also, sad story - I wanted to get me a Taurus revolver in .44 Magnum, sweet gun - or so it thought. Went to the gun store to buy one - but when I inspected the gun my enthusiasm faded quickly. The cylinder stop was really loose. Not good with a powerful caliber. Weirdly enough, all the guns I considered buying lately had some near-defect and bad if not disastrous quality in fit and finish. Perhaps that shop had a defective one? My Taurus .44 works just fine but i haven't shot it in ages, and even back then .44 mag wasnt' exactly cheap and i don't even want to imagine how much it is now. The shop owner said that its typical Taurus quality, I checked out a few more and was not happy with them either. They just had so much slop. I have a couple blackpowder revolvers (not cartridge) from various manufacturers and they all lock up MUCH tighter and feel much tighter overall. Don't know if Taurus built better revolvers in the past, I have no further experience with them. As for price, the Taurus .44s run in the mid 800s around here.
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Post by Lavochkin on Dec 16, 2021 20:21:11 GMT
Perhaps that shop had a defective one? My Taurus .44 works just fine but i haven't shot it in ages, and even back then .44 mag wasnt' exactly cheap and i don't even want to imagine how much it is now. The shop owner said that its typical Taurus quality, I checked out a few more and was not happy with them either. They just had so much slop. I have a couple blackpowder revolvers (not cartridge) from various manufacturers and they all lock up MUCH tighter and feel much tighter overall. Don't know if Taurus built better revolvers in the past, I have no further experience with them. As for price, the Taurus .44s run in the mid 800s around here. I guess i lucked out with my .357 Taurus 65 (by best shooter of all my handguns) and the Taurus 44 in... .44. Must be hit or miss with their guns, like this one that could go off by just shaking it.
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Post by Evil on Dec 16, 2021 22:49:27 GMT
Perhaps that shop had a defective one? My Taurus .44 works just fine but i haven't shot it in ages, and even back then .44 mag wasnt' exactly cheap and i don't even want to imagine how much it is now. The shop owner said that its typical Taurus quality, I checked out a few more and was not happy with them either. They just had so much slop. I have a couple blackpowder revolvers (not cartridge) from various manufacturers and they all lock up MUCH tighter and feel much tighter overall. Don't know if Taurus built better revolvers in the past, I have no further experience with them. As for price, the Taurus .44s run in the mid 800s around here. I remember Paul Harrell making several references to Taurus revolvers over the past few years. None have been complementary.
Given how many times that I've seen him actually using one and getting unsatisfactory results (by his standards), I'm inclined to believe his low opinion of them is warranted. Guy clearly knows how to shoot, so if one specific brand isn't getting him results, I know who I'm putting the blame on.
If the slop you mentioned is in the trigger, that'd match his comments too, if memory serves.
Impression I got was that "typical Taurus quality" is the equivilant of own brand goods. Functional, but with corners clearly being cut.
Fine for a cheap ass TV or suchlike, rather less fine for something thats throwing bullets around.
Also, watching Lavochkin's video sure didn't change my impression on Taurus. Thats a big yikes from me dawg.
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Post by Giant Ambush Beetle on Dec 16, 2021 23:15:15 GMT
If the slop you mentioned is in the trigger, that'd match his comments too, if memory serves. Impression I got was that "typical Taurus quality" is the equivilant of own brand goods. Functional, but with corners clearly being cut. Fine for a cheap ass TV or suchlike, rather less fine for something thats throwing bullets around. Also, watching Lavochkin's video sure didn't change my impression on Taurus. Thats a big yikes from me dawg.
Its wasn't so much the trigger, it was the cylinder lockup - the cylinder had a lot of play when locked and the hammer cocked ready to fire. That's not good because when the cylinder wiggles during firing - which it certainly will with powerful .44 Magnum rounds and if allowed by loose tolerances - the bullet will not enter the barrel straight on every time - that's not good for the barrel and not good for accuracy and longevity of the firearm. As I mentioned before, my experience with Taurus is limited to playing around with a couple revolvers, but they did not impress me and I found them to be overpriced for what they are. That being said, I have friends who are happy with their Taurus and they never checked -nor cared- for tolerances in their guns. I thought I was overthinking it all and I was just being picky, but I checked the lockup of my Uberti and Pietta blackpowder revolvers and they lock up with basically no play at all, like bank vaults. And they are considerably less powerful than a .44 magnum.
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Evil
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Post by Evil on Dec 17, 2021 1:45:04 GMT
Its wasn't so much the trigger, it was the cylinder lockup - the cylinder had a lot of play when locked and the hammer cocked ready to fire. That's not good because when the cylinder wiggles during firing - which it certainly will with powerful .44 Magnum rounds and if allowed by loose tolerances - the bullet will not enter the barrel straight on every time - that's not good for the barrel and not good for accuracy and longevity of the firearm. As I mentioned before, my experience with Taurus is limited to playing around with a couple revolvers, but they did not impress me and I found them to be overpriced for what they are. That being said, I have friends who are happy with their Taurus and they never checked -nor cared- for tolerances in their guns. I thought I was overthinking it all and I was just being picky, but I checked the lockup of my Uberti and Pietta blackpowder revolvers and they lock up with basically no play at all, like bank vaults. And they are considerably less powerful than a .44 magnum. Yea, that'd sure fuck up your groupings. And its longevity.
Forcing cone might help fix a few fractions of a mimimeter's worth of misalignment, but if its misaligned enouth that you can feel it then thats less a matter of glancing off of it than of slaming into it.
Still, theres a lot of people who never even bother to set the sights to fit their vision, let alone practice shooting, set up for a specific distance, or experiment with ammo. If it fires all the bullets they loaded somewhere in the general direction of the target, then thats good enouth for them.
Sounds like Taurus are targeting the firearms equivalent of people who just buy the cheapest TV marked "HD" and never even notice that the picture's got shitty colour matching and refresh rates.
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Post by Giant Ambush Beetle on Dec 18, 2021 12:24:24 GMT
Funniest thing happened today - went to the gun store one more time to get powder and I saw a guy arguing, he returned a 8'' .357 Taurus Raging Hunter revolver. Every 25 shots or so the cylinder stop would not engage the cylinder notch and it would fire on a freely spinning cylinder. I watched him demonstrate it several times dry firing it - I guess its caused by a burred or out-of-spec cylinder stop. Anyway, that guy has to either fiddle around and find a way to fix it himself or have the shop do it, but over Christmas and all the holidays its gonna take many weeks. Boy that sucks.
Also the shop owner didn't have anything nice to say about Taurus quality.
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Post by Lavochkin on Dec 25, 2021 15:29:23 GMT
Paul Harrell celebrates Christmas in his own special manner.
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You'll be peeling goddamn potatoes for the rest of your miserable excuse for a military career!
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Post by General Mahad on Dec 27, 2021 17:50:35 GMT
Stens are still being cranked out to this day (shoutout to Improguns for his amazing work). I gotta say, some of these DIY guns are looking pretty good.
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Post by Lavochkin on Dec 30, 2021 20:30:27 GMT
Ian takes a look an American company's version of the RPG-7.
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