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Post by Andrew Waples on Mar 20, 2018 23:23:56 GMT
Which is true. But the torch should be passed with dignity and acknowledging what these characters did. Not turning them into broken old men running away from their responsibilities. Or adding in new characters that make a mockery of the franchise and/or the plot at hand. I'm looking at you, Rose. Jar Jar hadn't already done that?
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Post by Iakus on Mar 20, 2018 23:30:37 GMT
Which is true. But the torch should be passed with dignity and acknowledging what these characters did. Not turning them into broken old men running away from their responsibilities. It was really one of only two ways they could have gone about it, and the EU pretty much handled the other way, and the fanbse was already complaining about the Force Awakens borrowing too much from ANH so clearly they wanted to go into a different direction. As I have said I think the connective tissue between point A and B wasn't as strong as it could have been but I do overall approve of the direction they went in because, well people have flaws, we rise, we fall, we rise again and Luke's story is a powerful example of that. Then why not maintain the EU as canon? Or make it co-canon, alternate universes, or whatever? Why take the existence of it as carte blanche to sh*t on the memories of the previous generation? Besides which, there's a difference between being respectful and copying. I mean, Heir to the Empire doesn't blatantly copy from the original trilogy, but kept to the spirit of said characters.
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Post by Iakus on Mar 20, 2018 23:31:11 GMT
Jar Jar hadn't already done that? There's place in the hall of shame for both tbh. (and the Ewoks too...) The thing is, the original trilogy was good, and could handle the addition of the ewoks.
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Post by colfoley on Mar 20, 2018 23:34:30 GMT
I do find it ironic given the political situation in the United States that was an opinion as stated by a BAD GUY. Not ironic at all, respecting the past is supposed to be a conservative thing. It makes a lot of sense that some Hollywood types would want to push a narrative against that. Again let me remphasize. It was Kylo Ren that said that quote. Compare that to the message from the two main protagonist characters. Rey chose to ignore Kylo's advice by preserving the ancient Jedi texts so she could learn from the past. While Luke Skywalker, initially he agreed very much with Kylo's viewpoint but changed his mind in the climax of the movie when he chose to become the legend of Luke Skywalker again and in his big speech to Kylo 'amazing, every word you just said is wrong, today the Rebellion is reborn...and I am not the Last Jedi.' indicating that he has accepted himself and the Jedi past and got over his issues.
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Post by Iakus on Mar 21, 2018 0:35:49 GMT
The thing is, the original trilogy was good, and could handle the addition of the ewoks. I'd have to disagree on that. I don't think that there's a way to justify the Ewoks, personally I just find their inclusion dumb. Oh, I never said it justifies the Ewoks. Just that the quality of the movies could withstand their addition. I still think Lucas should have stuck with his original idea of Wookies.
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Post by Iakus on Mar 21, 2018 0:39:30 GMT
Again let me remphasize. It was Kylo Ren that said that quote. Compare that to the message from the two main protagonist characters. Rey chose to ignore Kylo's advice by preserving the ancient Jedi texts so she could learn from the past. While Luke Skywalker, initially he agreed very much with Kylo's viewpoint but changed his mind in the climax of the movie when he chose to become the legend of Luke Skywalker again and in his big speech to Kylo 'amazing, every word you just said is wrong, today the Rebellion is reborn...and I am not the Last Jedi.' indicating that he has accepted himself and the Jedi past and got over his issues. Alright, we were talking about two different things then. I was talking about, for example, how Luke's character was basically assassinated, or how established lore was treated. Meaning, the subtext of the message rather than what the characters actually say. I think that there's no way to justify Luke standing above a student with a Lightsaber and considering killing him for something he might do. This is the same guy that tried to redeem his father, possibly one of the worst people in the entire galaxy, and that was AFTER he participated in countless atrocities. You don't move from that to almost killing your student in his sleep for something he might do in the future. (not to mention the most obvious thing in the world when it comes to your actions being the ones that might push him there) This isn't exactly a new theme or type of incident in the SW lore, similar things occurred in the EU, but Luke is simply not the character for it. Not just a student, his NEPHEW. The son of his twin sister and his best friend. A kid he quite likely watched grow up. Compared to Vader, who the only two times they actually spoke, had come to Vader trying to seduce him to the dark side or kill.
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Post by Iakus on Mar 21, 2018 0:42:38 GMT
I still think Lucas should have stuck with his original idea of Wookies. I didn't know this was a thing, but it certainly sounds much more plausible than a bunch of teddy-bears destroying storm troopers and AT-STs. Yes, "the forest moon of Endor" was originally supposed to be Kashyyyk.
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Post by CrutchCricket on Mar 21, 2018 1:28:55 GMT
Eh, the message seems to be "Let the past die. Kill it if you have to. Your time has past, your opinion no longer matters you old fart. Nostalgia is quaint but ultimately meaningless" Your feeble mind cannot comprehend the progress. The cycle has repeated itself more times than you can fathom. Your fandom existed because we allowed it. It ends because we demand it. Come to Disneyworld To that I say:
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Post by smilesja on Mar 21, 2018 1:45:04 GMT
Or adding in new characters that make a mockery of the franchise and/or the plot at hand. I'm looking at you, Rose. Jar Jar hadn't already done that? Jar Jar actually contributed to a plot.
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Post by Andrew Waples on Mar 21, 2018 8:04:07 GMT
Jar Jar hadn't already done that? Jar Jar actually contributed to a plot. What this? In my view, both contributed to their own plots.
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Post by colfoley on Mar 21, 2018 8:08:37 GMT
Jar Jar actually contributed to a plot. What this? In my view, both contributed to their own plots. Pretty much.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 21, 2018 12:29:57 GMT
Her contribution meant coming pretty damn close to dooming the Resistance for an incredibly stupid reason. It was just to add more feels to the movie.
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Post by griffith82 on Mar 21, 2018 13:36:32 GMT
Jar Jar actually contributed to a plot. What this? In my view, both contributed to their own plots. They did. Personally I liked both even the Ewoks. That nostalgia vid hit the nail on the head. Things we love (Star Wars) have to evolve or it will vanish. This was the best way to pass the torch imo. And with that I’ll leave this quote here. I think it could apply here.
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Post by Iakus on Mar 21, 2018 14:06:02 GMT
What this? In my view, both contributed to their own plots. They did. Personally I liked both even the Ewoks. That nostalgia vid hit the nail on the head. Things we love (Star Wars) have to evolve or it will vanish. This was the best way to pass the torch imo. And with that I’ll leave this quote here. I think it could apply here. That's a better argument to have left the original cast out of the sequel trilogy entirely.... Evolve=/= "flush the original characters down the toilet like yesterday's burrito"
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Post by griffith82 on Mar 21, 2018 14:30:37 GMT
They did. Personally I liked both even the Ewoks. That nostalgia vid hit the nail on the head. Things we love (Star Wars) have to evolve or it will vanish. This was the best way to pass the torch imo. And with that I’ll leave this quote here. I think it could apply here. That's a better argument to have left the original cast out of the sequel trilogy entirely.... Evolve=/= "flush the original characters down the toilet like yesterday's burrito" Except I don’t feel they did that. I’ve seen movies and tv ( looking at you House) where they have done exactly that.
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Post by Iakus on Mar 21, 2018 14:41:23 GMT
That's a better argument to have left the original cast out of the sequel trilogy entirely.... Evolve=/= "flush the original characters down the toilet like yesterday's burrito" Except I don’t feel they did that. I’ve seen movies and tv ( looking at you House) where they have done exactly that.
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Post by griffith82 on Mar 21, 2018 15:11:36 GMT
Except I don’t feel they did that. I’ve seen movies and tv ( looking at you House) where they have done exactly that. That’s out of context. After everything he’s been through it’s understandable. He’s not Obi Wan he wasn’t properly trained or grew up surrounded by Jedi.
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Post by Iakus on Mar 21, 2018 15:30:54 GMT
That’s out of context. After everything he’s been through it’s understandable. He’s not Obi Wan he wasn’t properly trained or grew up surrounded by Jedi. Not at all. It's totally in context. We are using his character's actions from the previous trilogy to show how OOC TLJ made him. He risked his life, the Rebellion, heck his very soul to redeem the father he's met exactly twice. THe man who: Aided the Emperor in his rise to power Directly helped destroy the Jedi Order Spent twenty years as the Emperor's hitman slaughtering rebels and any remaining Jedi Helped destroy the peaceful planet of Alderaan JUST TO SHOW OFF THE DEATH STAR'S CAPABILITIES! Tortured Leia, Luke's twin sister Murdered his mentor Obi-Wan Kenobi before his eyes. Chased him and his friends to the ends of the galaxy. Imprisoned and tortured Han Solo, his friend Trapped Han in carbonite as an experiment to see if the process was survivable Sold Han to Boba Fett Tried to seduce Luke to the Dark Side Maimed Luke Tried to seduce Luke to the Dark Side AGAIN! Turned Luke over to the Emperor so they could double-team him to the Dark Side Threatened to turn Leia when he learned she was Luke's sister And this is just the stuff he was directly responsible for. Not the atrocities committed indirectly by his actions. In contrast, we have Ben Solo, who was guilty of: Badthink Then there's Luke giving up on life, which is every bit as OOC. Ennui is essentially the polar opposite of Luke. Yoda had him pegged in ESB. Luke has Chronic Hero Syndrome He charges in to deal with problems head-on, to the point of recklessness: He rushed in to save Leia on the Death Star with virtually no plan. He hared off to Dagobah based on a vision he had while freezing to death. He rushed in to save Han and Leia based on a vision he had. He went off to confront Vader a second time, not to kill him, but to redeem him, for no other reason than he had to try He doesn't quit. He never gives up. The only thing keeping him on Tatooine in ANH was his aunt and uncle. When they were killed he jumped into the whole rebellion thing with both feet. Luke is not one to mope for long.
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Post by griffith82 on Mar 21, 2018 15:47:48 GMT
That’s out of context. After everything he’s been through it’s understandable. He’s not Obi Wan he wasn’t properly trained or grew up surrounded by Jedi. Not at all. It's totally in context. We are using his character's actions from the previous trilogy to show how OOC TLJ made him. He risked his life, the Rebellion, heck his very soul to redeem the father he's met exactly twice. THe man who: Aided the Emperor in his rise to power Directly helped destroy the Jedi Order Spent twenty years as the Emperor's hitman slaughtering rebels and any remaining Jedi Helped destroy the peaceful planet of Alderaan JUST TO SHOW OFF THE DEATH STAR'S CAPABILITIES! Tortured Leia, Luke's twin sister Murdered his mentor Obi-Wan Kenobi before his eyes. Chased him and his friends to the ends of the galaxy. Imprisoned and tortured Han Solo, his friend Trapped Han in carbonite as an experiment to see if the process was survivable Sold Han to Boba Fett Tried to seduce Luke to the Dark Side Maimed Luke Tried to seduce Luke to the Dark Side AGAIN! Turned Luke over to the Emperor so they could double-team him to the Dark Side Threatened to turn Leia when he learned she was Luke's sister And this is just the stuff he was directly responsible for. Not the atrocities committed indirectly by his actions. In contrast, we have Ben Solo, who was guilty of: Badthink Then there's Luke giving up on life, which is every bit as OOC. Ennui is essentially the polar opposite of Luke. Yoda had him pegged is ESB. Luke has Chronic Hero Syndrome He charges in to deal with problems head-on, to the point of recklessness: He rushed in to save Leia on the Death Star with virtually no plan. He hared off to Dagobah based on a vision he had while freezing to death. He rushed in to save Han and Leia based on a vision he had. He went off to confront Vader a second time, no to kill him, but to redeem him, for no other reason than he had to try He doesn't quit. He never gives up. The only thing keeping him on Tatooine in ANH was his aunt and uncle. WHen they were killed he jumped into the whole rebellion thing with both feet. Luke is not one to mope for long. No Ben single handed destroyed the New Jedi Order. It’s totally in character for him to be terrified of it happening again. But we won’t ever agree on this so agree to disagree and move on.
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Post by Iakus on Mar 21, 2018 15:50:25 GMT
Not at all. It's totally in context. We are using his character's actions from the previous trilogy to show how OOC TLJ made him. He risked his life, the Rebellion, heck his very soul to redeem the father he's met exactly twice. THe man who: Aided the Emperor in his rise to power Directly helped destroy the Jedi Order Spent twenty years as the Emperor's hitman slaughtering rebels and any remaining Jedi Helped destroy the peaceful planet of Alderaan JUST TO SHOW OFF THE DEATH STAR'S CAPABILITIES! Tortured Leia, Luke's twin sister Murdered his mentor Obi-Wan Kenobi before his eyes. Chased him and his friends to the ends of the galaxy. Imprisoned and tortured Han Solo, his friend Trapped Han in carbonite as an experiment to see if the process was survivable Sold Han to Boba Fett Tried to seduce Luke to the Dark Side Maimed Luke Tried to seduce Luke to the Dark Side AGAIN! Turned Luke over to the Emperor so they could double-team him to the Dark Side Threatened to turn Leia when he learned she was Luke's sister And this is just the stuff he was directly responsible for. Not the atrocities committed indirectly by his actions. In contrast, we have Ben Solo, who was guilty of: Badthink Then there's Luke giving up on life, which is every bit as OOC. Ennui is essentially the polar opposite of Luke. Yoda had him pegged is ESB. Luke has Chronic Hero Syndrome He charges in to deal with problems head-on, to the point of recklessness: He rushed in to save Leia on the Death Star with virtually no plan. He hared off to Dagobah based on a vision he had while freezing to death. He rushed in to save Han and Leia based on a vision he had. He went off to confront Vader a second time, no to kill him, but to redeem him, for no other reason than he had to try He doesn't quit. He never gives up. The only thing keeping him on Tatooine in ANH was his aunt and uncle. WHen they were killed he jumped into the whole rebellion thing with both feet. Luke is not one to mope for long. No Ben single handed destroyed the New Jedi Order. It’s totally in character for him to be terrified of it happening again. But we won’t ever agree on this so agree to disagree and move on. Ben destroyed the New Jedi Order AFTER Luke tried to murder him in his sleep. In fact, it was Luke's OOC stupidity that triggered it!
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Post by mybudgee on Mar 21, 2018 17:42:24 GMT
Dear Sheep; PLEASE Stop making excuses for the awful Star Wars: Episode 8. Claim to like it if you must, but defending the film &/or it's writing is futility
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Post by smilesja on Mar 21, 2018 18:57:40 GMT
Jar Jar actually contributed to a plot. What this? In my view, both contributed to their own plots. From guiding Qui Qon and Obi Wan to the Gungan city to guiding them out and even helping uniting the Gungans and the residents of Naboo. Jar Jar contributed for the good and the bad. Rose on the other hand has done almost nothing.
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Post by smilesja on Mar 21, 2018 18:58:52 GMT
If Luke was afraid of Kylo then why didn’t he consult Yoda or Obi Wan or Anakin?
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Post by Andrew Waples on Mar 21, 2018 19:15:42 GMT
What this? In my view, both contributed to their own plots. From guiding Qui Qon and Obi Wan to the Gungan city to guiding them out and even helping uniting the Gungans and the residents of Naboo. Jar Jar contributed for the good and the bad. Rose on the other hand has done almost nothing. Saving Finn doesn't count? 🤨 Regardless how you feel about it. No one else was actually gonna save Finn.
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