Heimdall
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Post by Heimdall on Mar 27, 2018 23:07:41 GMT
Well, I imagine the underperformance of the last Jedi may pressure Lucasfilms to deliver a more “traditional” Star Wars film. Whether it will be good, who knows...
I have low expectations for Solo at this point.
(Airing some thoughts)
I’m also a bit worried about Rian’s trilogy. I don’t share all the issues many people had with The Last Jedi, perhaps most controversially I’m okay with the direction he took Luke and I like Rey. However Rian has expressed the belief that you should always write what the audience least expects. That’s readily apparent in the Last Jedi, but it doesn’t always work and actually comes across as shortsighted. For example, killing Snoke rather than providing any further character development. Sure, it’s a great shocking moment, but as a result we’re left without a competent intimidating villain. Hux has been rendered a complete joke, and Kylo has always been hard to take seriously as an intimidating villain whatever his merits as a character. The same goes for having Finn and Rose captured before they could succeed with their plan, yes it’s a surprising moment but it has the effect of making the entire Canto Bight subplot, which already felt very disconnected from the rest of the movie, feel even more pointless. That kind of writing for pure shock value gets in the way of effective plotting.
Which brings me to another point. Perhaps no part of the movie has received more criticism from critics than the Canto Bight plot, for good reason. For one, it’s not the most visually distinctive planet, though it’s has a few fleeting moments. That’s the least of it though. In that plot, Rian decided to explore themes of war profiteering, animal cruelty, and the excess of the rich and powerful. The problem is that these themes feel totally disconnected from the supposed primary plot of the Resistance trying to escape the First Order. There is no connection, as a result it often feels like the plot comes to a screeching halt any time we cut to Canto Bight. Rian tries to bring it back together with a confused message from Rose about fighting for the people we love. As I’ve said before, that line really doesn’t work since she just stopped him from sacrificing himself to save people and Holdo did the same thing a few minutes earlier.
Some storylines just flat out had confusing execution. Rian wants us to think Poe’s attack on the dreadnaught was the wrong call, but he did a poor job of showing that on screen. If anything, it looks like the Dreadnaught would have destroyed the Raddus without Poe’s intervention. Leia’s disapproval of the pilot’s sacrifice only further confuses the issue later, when she speaks favorably of Holdo’s sacrifice. I know the point here is that Poe learns to think strategically and prioritize preserving the rebellion, but it isn’t well done because it seems like that’s what he was doing. If anything, he’s too sympathetic. Holdo’s instant antagonism towards him mostly make’s her come across as unreasonable rather than Poe being impetuous. And frankly, I agree with the NC review that she comes across more as a patronizing mother lecturing an unruly child than a military leader. Even when he’s clearly in the wrong, having committed mutiny, the next scene is Holdo saying she likes him as if he were a mischevious child. “Mutiny? Oh that scamp, how adorable!”
I feel like Rian had a bunch of potentially interesting ideas as work when he started and didn’t really know to effectively make them gel together. I’m a bit concerned about Rian’s capabilities as a storyteller. He has unconventional ideas and visual flare, but he seems to have trouble pruning those ideas into a flowing narrative.
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Post by Sifr on Mar 27, 2018 23:15:05 GMT
I actually like Rey, but I'd still prefer her arc to have her end up on the Dark Side, while Kylo turns back to the Light. It'd be a fun twist and unlike the Prequels, we don't have foreknowledge going in that we're watching a hero's journey into villainy until afterwards.
TLJ even seemed to be hinting something to that direction, with Rey gravitating to the Dark Side cave on Ahch-to right away, while most of the time we see her fight in both films, she seems to rely heavily on anger to give her an edge. Throw in years of repressed anger and resentment over her abandoment on Jakku, she's got plenty of reason to turn evil.
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Post by smilesja on Mar 27, 2018 23:42:47 GMT
Well, I imagine the underperformance of the last Jedi may pressure Lucasfilms to deliver a more “traditional” Star Wars film. Whether it will be good, who knows... I have low expectations for Solo at this point. (Airing some thoughts) I’m also a bit worried about Rian’s trilogy. I don’t share all the issues many people had with The Last Jedi, perhaps most controversially I’m okay with the direction he took Luke. However Rian has expressed the belief that you should always write what the audience least expects. That’s readily apparent in the Last Jedi, but it doesn’t always work and actually comes across as shortsighted. For example, killing Snoke rather than providing any further character development. Sure, it’s a great shocking moment, but as a result we’re left without a competent intimidating villain. Hux has been rendered a complete joke, and Kylo has always been hard to take seriously as an intimidating villain whatever his merits as a character. The same goes for having Finn and Rose captured before they could succeed with their plan, yes it’s a surprising moment but it has the effect of making the entire Canto Bight subplot, which already felt very disconnected from the rest of the movie, feel even more pointless. That kind of writing for pure shock value gets in the way of effective plotting. Which brings me to another point. Perhaps no part of the movie has received more criticism from critics than the Canto Bight plot, for good reason. For one, it’s not the most visually distinctive planet, though it’s has a few fleeting moments. That’s the least of it though. In that plot, Rian decided to explore themes of war profiteering, animal cruelty, and the excess of the rich and powerful. The problem is that these themes feel totally disconnected from the supposed primary plot of the Resistance trying to escape the First Order. There is no connection, as a result it often feels like the plot comes to a screeching halt any time we cut to Canto Bight. Rian tries to bring it back together with a confused message from Rose about fighting for the people we love. As I’ve said before, that line really doesn’t work since she just stopped him from sacrificing himself to save people and Holdo did the same thing a few minutes earlier. Some storylines just flat out had confusing execution. Rian wants us to think Poe’s attack on the dreadnaught was the wrong call, but he did a poor job of showing that on screen. If anything, it looks like the Dreadnaught would have destroyed the Raddus without Poe’s intervention. Leia’s disapproval of the pilot’s sacrifice only further confuses the issue later, when she speaks favorably of Holdo’s sacrifice. I know the point here is that Poe learns to think strategically and prioritize preserving the rebellion, but it isn’t well done because it seems like that’s what he was doing. If anything, he’s too sympathetic. Holdo’s instant antagonism towards him mostly make’s her come across as unreasonable rather than Poe being impetuous. And frankly, I agree with the NC review that she comes across more as a patronizing mother lecturing an unruly child than a military leader. Even when he’s clearly in the wrong, having committed mutiny, the next scene is Holdo saying she likes him as if he were a mischevious child. “Mutiny? Oh that scamp, how adorable!” I feel like Rian had a bunch of potentially interesting ideas as work when he started and didn’t really know to effectively make them gel together. I’m a bit concerned about Rian’s capabilities as a storyteller. He has unconventional ideas and visual flare, but he seems to have trouble pruning those ideas into a flowing narrative. To be honest, his view on doing things unexpected sounds just like something Vince Russo would do.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 28, 2018 2:22:56 GMT
I actually like Rey, but I'd still prefer her arc to have her end up on the Dark Side, while Kylo turns back to the Light. It'd be a fun twist and unlike the Prequels, we don't have foreknowledge going in that we're watching a hero's journey into villainy until afterwards. Yes.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 28, 2018 2:39:08 GMT
I don't give a Brass Razoo about the new trilogy or Rey for that matter so she could go all dark for all I care. TFA didn't grab me the way ANH, ESB and RotJ did way back in the day and to a lesser degree the prequels. The new trilogy can take a long walk off a short cliff.
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Post by Sifr on Mar 28, 2018 10:28:36 GMT
Ben destroyed the New Jedi Order AFTER Luke tried to murder him in his sleep. In fact, it was Luke's OOC stupidity that triggered it! Cause between the three male members of the Skywalker bloodline we've seen, youthful whining, over-confidence, irrational decision-making, extreme bursts of anger and the temptation of the Dark Side has never been a consistent trait over the generations? Why shouldn't Luke be predisposed to the same negative emotions and character flaws that caused Anakin and Ben to fall to the Dark Side? Empire and RotJ even had Luke dealing with this internal conflict. We even saw him contemplating striking down Vader in their final battle in RotJ, only relenting when noticing their similar artificial hands and the Emperor taunted him about his hatred. That made Luke realise history was about to repeat and he was very close to becoming like his father. But just because Luke stepped away from the precipice and refused to fall to the Dark Side that time, that doesn't magic away the negative emotions within him that almost lead him there. That these negative emotions and thoughts resurfaced in a moment when he was confronted with another individual, who he sensed had the capacity to become the next Vader, doesn't strike me as out-of-character at all. He refused to give into the temptation to strike down Ben, just like he had with Vader. It's the exact same scenario and Luke made the exact same decision both times. (Granted, Ben seemingly hadn't done anything wrong at this point, unlike Vader. Although the speed at which he organised the other students to rebel with him and raze the Temple, does seem awfully suspicious unless he'd already planned something like this. And it's implied he might already have been in contact with Snoke at this point)
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Post by Andrew Waples on Mar 28, 2018 11:19:07 GMT
Ben destroyed the New Jedi Order AFTER Luke tried to murder him in his sleep. In fact, it was Luke's OOC stupidity that triggered it! Cause between the three male members of the Skywalker bloodline we've seen, youthful whining, over-confidence, irrational decision-making, extreme bursts of anger and the temptation of the Dark Side has never been a consistent trait over the generations? Why shouldn't Luke be predisposed to the same negative emotions and character flaws that caused Anakin and Ben to fall to the Dark Side? Empire and RotJ even had Luke dealing with this internal conflict. We even saw him contemplating striking down Vader in their final battle in RotJ, only relenting when noticing their similar artificial hands and the Emperor taunted him about his hatred. That made Luke realise history was about to repeat and he was very close to becoming like his father. But just because Luke stepped away from the precipice and refused to fall to the Dark Side that time, that doesn't magic away the negative emotions within him that almost lead him there. That these negative emotions and thoughts resurfaced in a moment when he was confronted with another individual, who he sensed had the capacity to become the next Vader, doesn't strike me as out-of-character at all. He refused to give into the temptation to strike down Ben, just like he had with Vader. It's the exact same scenario and Luke made the exact same decision both times. (Granted, Ben seemingly hadn't done anything wrong at this point, unlike Vader. Although the speed at which he organised the other students to rebel with him and raze the Temple, does seem awfully suspicious unless he'd already planned something like this. And it's implied he might already have been in contact with Snoke at this point) Owen even states as much when Beru said he had too much of his father in him. "That's what I'm afraid of."
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Post by Iakus on Mar 28, 2018 12:48:47 GMT
Ben destroyed the New Jedi Order AFTER Luke tried to murder him in his sleep. In fact, it was Luke's OOC stupidity that triggered it! Cause between the three male members of the Skywalker bloodline we've seen, youthful whining, over-confidence, irrational decision-making, extreme bursts of anger and the temptation of the Dark Side has never been a consistent trait over the generations? Why shouldn't Luke be predisposed to the same negative emotions and character flaws that caused Anakin and Ben to fall to the Dark Side? Empire and RotJ even had Luke dealing with this internal conflict. We even saw him contemplating striking down Vader in their final battle in RotJ, only relenting when noticing their similar artificial hands and the Emperor taunted him about his hatred. That made Luke realise history was about to repeat and he was very close to becoming like his father. But just because Luke stepped away from the precipice and refused to fall to the Dark Side that time, that doesn't magic away the negative emotions within him that almost lead him there. That these negative emotions and thoughts resurfaced in a moment when he was confronted with another individual, who he sensed had the capacity to become the next Vader, doesn't strike me as out-of-character at all. He refused to give into the temptation to strike down Ben, just like he had with Vader. It's the exact same scenario and Luke made the exact same decision both times. ( Granted, Ben seemingly hadn't done anything wrong at this point, unlike Vader. Although the speed at which he organised the other students to rebel with him and raze the Temple, does seem awfully suspicious unless he'd already planned something like this. And it's implied he might already have been in contact with Snoke at this point) This is the entire point. HE HAD NOT DONE ANYTHING YET! See my list earlier for the laundry list of atrocities Vader HAD committed at this point. In fact, Luke was in berserker mode because he had moments ago threatened to turn Leia to the Dark Side, and the Rebellion (including all his friends) were fighting for their lives in an ambush. And the whole time the Emperor was right there, working on bending Luke to his will. The situation with Ben was nothing like this. He had an impulse to kill Ben because...he had a bad dream?
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Post by alanc9 on Mar 28, 2018 14:27:08 GMT
More like an accurate vision.
I suppose this is a type of predestination paradox, since Luke's reaction to to the vision causes the vision to become true.
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Post by Iakus on Mar 28, 2018 15:19:58 GMT
More like an accurate vision. I suppose this is a type of predestination paradox, since Luke's reaction to to the vision causes the vision to become true. And predestination has been shown to be BS.
As Yoda said "Always in motion is the future"
And heck, Luke redeemed Darth Freaking VADER, even after everything he had already done, even when Obi Wan AND Yoda thought he was nuts for trying.
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Heimdall
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Post by Heimdall on Mar 28, 2018 16:10:26 GMT
Cause between the three male members of the Skywalker bloodline we've seen, youthful whining, over-confidence, irrational decision-making, extreme bursts of anger and the temptation of the Dark Side has never been a consistent trait over the generations? Why shouldn't Luke be predisposed to the same negative emotions and character flaws that caused Anakin and Ben to fall to the Dark Side? Empire and RotJ even had Luke dealing with this internal conflict. We even saw him contemplating striking down Vader in their final battle in RotJ, only relenting when noticing their similar artificial hands and the Emperor taunted him about his hatred. That made Luke realise history was about to repeat and he was very close to becoming like his father. But just because Luke stepped away from the precipice and refused to fall to the Dark Side that time, that doesn't magic away the negative emotions within him that almost lead him there. That these negative emotions and thoughts resurfaced in a moment when he was confronted with another individual, who he sensed had the capacity to become the next Vader, doesn't strike me as out-of-character at all. He refused to give into the temptation to strike down Ben, just like he had with Vader. It's the exact same scenario and Luke made the exact same decision both times. ( Granted, Ben seemingly hadn't done anything wrong at this point, unlike Vader. Although the speed at which he organised the other students to rebel with him and raze the Temple, does seem awfully suspicious unless he'd already planned something like this. And it's implied he might already have been in contact with Snoke at this point) This is the entire point. HE HAD NOT DONE ANYTHING YET! See my list earlier for the laundry list of atrocities Vader HAD committed at this point. In fact, Luke was in berserker mode because he had moments ago threatened to turn Leia to the Dark Side, and the Rebellion (including all his friends) were fighting for their lives in an ambush. And the whole time the Emperor was right there, working on bending Luke to his will. The situation with Ben was nothing like this. He had an impulse to kill Ben because...he had a bad dream? I feel like you’re making more out of that moment than it really. He saw what Ben could become and how he could undo all the good he and his friends had accomplished. He was shocked and afraid and, for a brief instant, gave in to a dark impulse. And just as quickly, he resisted that impulse and mastered himself. Those dark impulses have always been part of him, like his father, that was the whole point of that Dagobah moment in the cave and the moment in the throne room you cited. I don’t see what’s so controversial about it, he clamped down on and immediately rejected it.
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Post by Andrew Waples on Mar 28, 2018 16:19:24 GMT
Cause between the three male members of the Skywalker bloodline we've seen, youthful whining, over-confidence, irrational decision-making, extreme bursts of anger and the temptation of the Dark Side has never been a consistent trait over the generations? Why shouldn't Luke be predisposed to the same negative emotions and character flaws that caused Anakin and Ben to fall to the Dark Side? Empire and RotJ even had Luke dealing with this internal conflict. We even saw him contemplating striking down Vader in their final battle in RotJ, only relenting when noticing their similar artificial hands and the Emperor taunted him about his hatred. That made Luke realise history was about to repeat and he was very close to becoming like his father. But just because Luke stepped away from the precipice and refused to fall to the Dark Side that time, that doesn't magic away the negative emotions within him that almost lead him there. That these negative emotions and thoughts resurfaced in a moment when he was confronted with another individual, who he sensed had the capacity to become the next Vader, doesn't strike me as out-of-character at all. He refused to give into the temptation to strike down Ben, just like he had with Vader. It's the exact same scenario and Luke made the exact same decision both times. ( Granted, Ben seemingly hadn't done anything wrong at this point, unlike Vader. Although the speed at which he organised the other students to rebel with him and raze the Temple, does seem awfully suspicious unless he'd already planned something like this. And it's implied he might already have been in contact with Snoke at this point) This is the entire point. HE HAD NOT DONE ANYTHING YET! See my list earlier for the laundry list of atrocities Vader HAD committed at this point. In fact, Luke was in berserker mode because he had moments ago threatened to turn Leia to the Dark Side, and the Rebellion (including all his friends) were fighting for their lives in an ambush. And the whole time the Emperor was right there, working on bending Luke to his will. The situation with Ben was nothing like this. He had an impulse to kill Ben because...he had a bad dream? Anakin went to save his mother because of a "bad dream" when he wasn't supposed to.
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Post by smilesja on Mar 28, 2018 16:29:57 GMT
Why should Luke be like Anakin and Ben? The important part of his arc in the OT is that he overcame those flaws to become something greater. The ST just had Luke regress from the man who learned from his fathers mistakes.
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Post by Iakus on Mar 28, 2018 16:36:24 GMT
Why should Luke be like Anakin and Ben? The important part of his arc in the OT is that he overcame those flaws to become something greater. The ST just had Luke regress from the man who learned from his fathers mistakes.
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Post by Andrew Waples on Mar 28, 2018 16:37:44 GMT
Why should Luke be like Anakin and Ben? The important part of his arc in the OT is that he overcame those flaws to become something greater. The ST just had Luke regress from the man who learned from his fathers mistakes. Luke in Empire went to Cloud City all because of a single vision that may or may not happen. In the end, he almost died for that mistake. Why is this any different with Ben?
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Post by Iakus on Mar 28, 2018 16:39:06 GMT
This is the entire point. HE HAD NOT DONE ANYTHING YET! See my list earlier for the laundry list of atrocities Vader HAD committed at this point. In fact, Luke was in berserker mode because he had moments ago threatened to turn Leia to the Dark Side, and the Rebellion (including all his friends) were fighting for their lives in an ambush. And the whole time the Emperor was right there, working on bending Luke to his will. The situation with Ben was nothing like this. He had an impulse to kill Ben because...he had a bad dream? I feel like you’re making more out of that moment than it really. He saw what Ben could become and how he could undo all the good he and his friends had accomplished. He was shocked and afraid and, for a brief instant, gave in to a dark impulse. And just as quickly, he resisted that impulse and mastered himself. Those dark impulses have always been part of him, like his father, that was the whole point of that Dagobah moment in the cave and the moment in the throne room you cited. I don’t see what’s so controversial about it, he clamped down on and immediately rejected it. And the ONLY time we have ever seen Luke give into such an impulse was when Vader was actively threatening Leia while both Vader AND the Emperor were bending their will towards corrupting Luke.
Ben was effing ASLEEP and HADN'T DONE ANYTHING YET!
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Post by Andrew Waples on Mar 28, 2018 16:45:20 GMT
I feel like you’re making more out of that moment than it really. He saw what Ben could become and how he could undo all the good he and his friends had accomplished. He was shocked and afraid and, for a brief instant, gave in to a dark impulse. And just as quickly, he resisted that impulse and mastered himself. Those dark impulses have always been part of him, like his father, that was the whole point of that Dagobah moment in the cave and the moment in the throne room you cited. I don’t see what’s so controversial about it, he clamped down on and immediately rejected it. It's one thing to merely consider the idea, it's quite another to stand with a drawn weapon and actually prepare to do it. Personally I just don't see it, I think that this is completely out of character for Luke. Anakin went to save his mother because of a "bad dream" when he wasn't supposed to. This is a false equivalence. Sure, a vision can provide useful information, and in some cases it would be beneficial to act on it, such as when discovering that someone might be in danger. However, killing (or almost killing) someone because he might do something bad in the future, especially while knowing the limitations of said visions, is something else entirely. Luke in Empire went to Cloud City all because of a single vision that may or may not happen. In the end, he almost died for that mistake. Why is this any different with Ben? Again, false equivalence. A Jedi risking themselves for a sufficient cause is one thing, killing others before they did anything wrong is quite another. I disagree they're both an emotional reaction rather then using your head.
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Post by Andrew Waples on Mar 28, 2018 16:48:40 GMT
I feel like you’re making more out of that moment than it really. He saw what Ben could become and how he could undo all the good he and his friends had accomplished. He was shocked and afraid and, for a brief instant, gave in to a dark impulse. And just as quickly, he resisted that impulse and mastered himself. Those dark impulses have always been part of him, like his father, that was the whole point of that Dagobah moment in the cave and the moment in the throne room you cited. I don’t see what’s so controversial about it, he clamped down on and immediately rejected it. And the ONLY time we have ever seen Luke give into such an impulse was when Vader was actively threatening Leia while both Vader AND the Emperor were bending their will towards corrupting Luke.
Ben was effing ASLEEP and HADN'T DONE ANYTHING YET!
In Empire, he acted on a pure impulse that hadn't happened yet. Yoda and Obi-Wan were pleading with him to not go.
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Post by Andrew Waples on Mar 28, 2018 16:50:50 GMT
I disagree they're both an emotional reaction rather then using your head. They are also quite different morally speaking. Going to save someone based on a vision is simply acting to the best of your ability according to limited information, while killing someone off based on that is practically the anathema of everything Luke believed in. "Told you I did. Reckless is he. Now matters are worse."
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Post by Andrew Waples on Mar 28, 2018 16:58:54 GMT
"Told you I did. Reckless is he. Now matters are worse." Reckless, sure, but not malicious. Note: I'm not talking from a moral point-of-view. Using visions instead of evidence seems pretty reckless to me. With Ben, it's no different then how Luke handled the same vision in Empire.
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Post by Iakus on Mar 28, 2018 17:02:31 GMT
They are also quite different morally speaking. Going to save someone based on a vision is simply acting to the best of your ability according to limited information, while killing someone off based on that is practically the anathema of everything Luke believed in. "Told you I did. Reckless is he. Now matters are worse." He didn't go there to kill Vader. He went to rescue Han and Leia.
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Post by Andrew Waples on Mar 28, 2018 17:06:22 GMT
"Told you I did. Reckless is he. Now matters are worse." He didn't go there to kill Vader. He went to rescue Han and Leia. What's the difference? It didn't happen yet. "If you leave now help them you could. You would destroy all for which they have fought and suffered."
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Iakus
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Dec 21, 2018 17:35:11 GMT
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Iakus on Mar 28, 2018 17:08:59 GMT
He didn't go there to kill Vader. He went to rescue Han and Leia. What's the difference? It didn't happen yet. "If you leave now help them you could. You would destroy all for which they have fought and suffered." Umm, Han and Leia had been captured. Han had been tortured, frozen in carbonite, and handed over to Boba Fett. Leia and Chewbacca were Vader's prisoners. Threepio had been blasted apart and only half-reconstructed thus far.
It happened.
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Post by Andrew Waples on Mar 28, 2018 17:13:09 GMT
What's the difference? It didn't happen yet. "If you leave now help them you could. You would destroy all for which they have fought and suffered." Umm, Han and Leia had been captured. Han had been tortured, frozen in carbonite, and handed over to Boba Fett. Leia and Chewbacca were Vader's prisoners. Threepio had been blasted apart and only half-reconstructed thus far.
It happened.
Not at the time when he first had the vision. Again, he had no evidence other then his gut.
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Iakus
N7
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
Posts: 21,093 Likes: 49,944
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Dec 21, 2018 17:35:11 GMT
49,944
Iakus
21,093
August 2016
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Iakus on Mar 28, 2018 17:20:11 GMT
Umm, Han and Leia had been captured. Han had been tortured, frozen in carbonite, and handed over to Boba Fett. Leia and Chewbacca were Vader's prisoners. Threepio had been blasted apart and only half-reconstructed thus far.
It happened.
Not at the time when he first had the vision. Again, he had no evidence other then his gut. And Yoda confirming it was a genuine vision. That the future was in motion. And that he COULD help them, though he'd be risking himself.
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