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Post by newnation on Mar 28, 2018 20:05:36 GMT
Vader: You cannot hide forever, Luke. Luke: I will not fight you. Vader: Give yourself to the dark side. It is the only way you can save your friends. Yes, your thoughts betray you. Your feelings for them are strong. Especially for... [pauses] Sister. So, you have a twin sister. Your feelings have now betrayed her too. Obi-Wan was wise to hide her from me. Now his failure is complete. If you will not turn to the dark side, then perhaps she will. THough it seems, yes, he has more than one instinct: And Luke never "engaged" with Ben even in their "duel". He was still "I will not fight you." The duel was never to confront him. It was to distract everyone long enough so the Resistance could escape. I get what you're trying to say but before and during the duel he already made up his mind that Ben was beyond redemption.
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Post by Heimdall on Mar 28, 2018 20:14:25 GMT
But didn’t we see this happen? Luke himself indicated he knew he was wrong the moment he stepped towards Ben with a lightsaber and stopped. I thought that was pretty clear? Luke says it outright. Clear? What was clear was that he stood above his sleeping student, with a drawn and activated lightsaber, whether he was about to decide to kill him or not is a question we'll never really know the answer to. He only spoke about how "the last thing he saw were the eyes of a frightened boy" or something. No, he specifically says that his thought to kill Ben “passed like a fleeting shadow” and then he felt only shame. Luke: He would bring destruction, and pain, and death... and the end of everything I love because of what he will become. And for the briefest moment of pure instinct... I thought I could stop it. It passed like a fleeting shadow.. And I was left with shame... and with consequence. And the last thing I saw... were the eyes of a frightened boy whose master had failed him
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Post by Heimdall on Mar 28, 2018 20:32:19 GMT
No, he specifically says that his thought to kill Ben “passed like a fleeting shadow” and then he felt only shame. Luke: He would bring destruction, and pain, and death... and the end of everything I love because of what he will become. And for the briefest moment of pure instinct... I thought I could stop it. It passed like a fleeting shadow.. And I was left with shame... and with consequence. And the last thing I saw... were the eyes of a frightened boy whose master had failed him And yet, he was quick to draw and activate his saber, perhaps if that single moment was a little longer, he would have done more then just that. And the Saber remained activated for awhile as well. This scene doesn't look like "the briefest moment of pure instinct", it looks like someone seriously contemplating cold-blooded murder. (I actually re-watched the scene on YT just to be sure) He looks disturbed and fearful, certainly, on the verge of tears even. But let’s take a closer look at how the scene was constructed. The moment his lightsaber is ignited, Luke’s gaze move’s away from Ben and to his weapon. At the same time, Luke’s voiceover says “it passed like a fleeting shadow”. There’s a clear shift here, the moment Luke activated his weapon he was horrified by what he had contemplated doing. His horror shifts from his vision of Ben to his own actions. He wasn’t going to go through with it. That’s the clear intent of the scene, as far as I can tell, it seems pretty unambiguous.
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Post by Heimdall on Mar 28, 2018 20:46:46 GMT
He looks disturbed and fearful, certainly, on the verge of tears even. But let’s take a closer look at how the scene worked. The moment his lightsaber is ignited, Luke’s gaze move’s away from Ben and to his weapon. At the same time, Luke’s voiceover says “it passed like a fleeting shadow”. There’s a clear shift here, the moment Luke activated his weapon he was horrified by what he had contemplated doing. He wasn’t going to go through with it. That’s the clear intent of the scene, as far as I can tell, it seems pretty unambiguous. I can see your interpretation, but I disagree. He's a Jedi master, he's old, he's not quite as reckless anymore, he has principles. A single fleeting moment of an insane urge that goes against his every fiber of his being was enough for him to draw and activate a lightsaber over a sleeping nephew/student? Again, I see this is extremely OOC for him. (and that action took more than a single fleeting moment anyway) Anyway, it's clear that we are seeing it differently and we are arguing in circles, so I'll just agree to disagree about this. I think you’re being a bit too literal about the fleeting moment thing, but fair enough
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Post by alanc9 on Mar 28, 2018 21:41:44 GMT
Can we really classify that urge as "insane"? It's not like Luke was wrong about Ben.
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Post by Iakus on Mar 28, 2018 21:45:19 GMT
Can we really classify that urge as "insane"? It's not like Luke was wrong about Ben. Unless you catch him doing something like gnawing on a human femur, I'd say the urge to cut down your own nephew, however brief it may be, is pretty insane.
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Post by Hier0phant on Mar 28, 2018 22:35:35 GMT
Can we really classify that urge as "insane"? It's not like Luke was wrong about Ben. Unless you catch him doing something like gnawing on a human femur, I'd say the urge to cut down your own nephew, however brief it may be, is pretty insane. Compare all the crap that Vader put Luke through before he snapped, versus him sensing the dark side in Ben while he sleeps. It's as if all the character development he acquired in RoTJ's DSII duel was tossed into the trash.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 28, 2018 23:50:37 GMT
Unless you catch him doing something like gnawing on a human femur, I'd say the urge to cut down your own nephew, however brief it may be, is pretty insane. Compare all the crap that Vader put Luke through before he snapped, versus him sensing the dark side in Ben while he sleeps. It's as if all the character development he acquired in RoTJ's DSII duel was tossed into the trash. That don't surprise me at all actually as the monkeys, sorry mice now in charge of the franchise don't give a crap about the the 40 odd plus years of lore that's been built up seeing as they consigned 99% of it in the trash when they took over. So a thing like proper character development isn't going to be even on their radar.
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Post by alanc9 on Mar 29, 2018 0:13:06 GMT
Can we really classify that urge as "insane"? It's not like Luke was wrong about Ben. Unless you catch him doing something like gnawing on a human femur, I'd say the urge to cut down your own nephew, however brief it may be, is pretty insane. Luke kinda did see that, though. I take it your position is that Force visions don't count?
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Post by Iakus on Mar 29, 2018 0:26:03 GMT
Unless you catch him doing something like gnawing on a human femur, I'd say the urge to cut down your own nephew, however brief it may be, is pretty insane. Luke kinda did see that, though. I take it your position is that Force visions don't count? No, Force visions don't count. Particularly since "always in motion, is the future"
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Post by Heimdall on Mar 29, 2018 0:51:39 GMT
Luke kinda did see that, though. I take it your position is that Force visions don't count? No, Force visions don't count. Particularly since "always in motion, is the future" Seems rather arbitrary, I guess because he would be the first Jedi to make a rash decision based on a Force vision?
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Post by Andrew Waples on Mar 29, 2018 1:15:04 GMT
Luke kinda did see that, though. I take it your position is that Force visions don't count? No, Force visions don't count. Particularly since "always in motion, is the future" All of the force visions came true, from a certain point of view. Even the Chosen One prophecy.
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Post by Obsidian Gryphon on Mar 29, 2018 6:21:34 GMT
Just have to when I saw a tweet by someone called MW (not giving out his name) who said; Rose Tico is my fav char forever. Just the thought that her existence unapologetically gives literally millions of young Asian girls a SW hero they can recognise makes me happier than I've been in a long long time. He's definitely not in touch with what's always trending (persistent) among young asians. It's popular media and artistes from countries like South Korea, Japan, Hong Kong, Taiwan, China, etc. SW doesn't gel with many of them. You won't find thousands of young asians putting themselves out on the mat to buy tickets for SW special performance or artistes.
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Post by mybudgee on Mar 29, 2018 7:20:42 GMT
Luke kinda did see that, though. I take it your position is that Force visions don't count? No, Force visions don't count. Particularly since "always in motion, is the future" Guys, we don't really need to debate it anymore. Episode 8 was simply BAD. Badly written, badly directed. Ruin Johnson admitted that he more-or-less wanted to troll the fanbase. He was very successful in this mission. Let's try to focus on the SOLO movie which will be released in only a handful of weeks. Believe it or not, I am still optimistic
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Post by mybudgee on Mar 29, 2018 7:25:27 GMT
Unless you catch him doing something like gnawing on a human femur, I'd say the urge to cut down your own nephew, however brief it may be, is pretty insane.Compare all the crap that Vader put Luke through before he snapped, versus him sensing the dark side in Ben while he sleeps. It's as if all the character development he acquired in RoTJ's DSII duel was tossed into the trash.The entire Saga, all the EU, all the fans hopes & dreams, our happiness over the holidays was ALL tossed in the bin
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Post by Pearl on Mar 29, 2018 7:44:21 GMT
Unless you catch him doing something like gnawing on a human femur, I'd say the urge to cut down your own nephew, however brief it may be, is pretty insane. Compare all the crap that Vader put Luke through before he snapped, versus him sensing the dark side in Ben while he sleeps. It's as if all the character development he acquired in RoTJ's DSII duel was tossed into the trash. Disney tossing established Star Wars stuff into the trash? Say it ain't so.
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Post by Andrew Waples on Mar 29, 2018 8:42:17 GMT
No, Force visions don't count. Particularly since "always in motion, is the future" Guys, we don't really need to debate it anymore. Episode 8 was simply BAD. Badly written, badly directed. Ruin Johnson admitted that he more-or-less wanted to troll the fanbase. He was very successful in this mission. Let's try to focus on the SOLO movie which will be released in only a handful of weeks. Believe it or not, I am still optimistic
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Post by Sifr on Mar 29, 2018 10:38:18 GMT
More like an accurate vision. I suppose this is a type of predestination paradox, since Luke's reaction to to the vision causes the vision to become true. And predestination has been shown to be BS. Anakin had visions of Padme's death in Ep III. He went to desperate lengths to prevent it... but in doing so, set in motion the events that would lead to her death. (In TLJ, Luke contemplating killing Ben, sensing what he might become, also caused the very thing Luke wanted to prevent) So predestination paradoxes definitely are a thing in the Star Wars universe.
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Post by Heimdall on Mar 29, 2018 11:01:01 GMT
Can we really classify that urge as "insane"? It's not like Luke was wrong about Ben. Jedi were almost never in the business of punishing people for crimes they hadn't committed yet, despite the fact that technically they could. The Jedi were also not unaware of the idea of a self-fulfilling prophecy. Granted, there have been some outliers and extreme cases in the EU, but Luke was never that kind of a Jedi, not in canon, and not according to his EU portrayal. Also, Force visions are not always true, sometimes they are true only "from a certain point of view", other times they only contain partial information, and yet other times they can be tainted by someone like Palpatine, etc. Nobody, not even Luke himself, is claiming he made a rationale justified decision there.
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Post by Heimdall on Mar 29, 2018 11:42:56 GMT
Nobody, not even Luke himself, is claiming he made a rationale justified decision there. Yes well, we have already established the point of disagreement between us on this topic. You know what's the most ironic thing about all this? Note: This is an EU spoiler in regards to Luke and Jacen Solo, not sure the exact book. After Jacen Killed Mara Jade Skywallker, Luke's wife, and was basically rampaging for awhile, Luke went after him and basically curb-stomped him before he could do anything (because Luke was simply that much more powerful). The only reason he didn't kill him despite the fact that this would have prevented any of the future atrocities that he was about to commit (and that was after he was responsible for quite a lot of shit), was because Luke felt that he couldn't kill him for the "right reasons" meaning that if he killed him, it would be partly in revenge for Jacen killing Mara, which in turn might cause Luke to fall to the Dark-Side, in time.
So he simply walked away.
Now, ignoring whether this decision was smart or justified (he possibly could have found ways to disable or detain Jacen without actually killing him), it showed Luke's principles and conviction. Now compare the two cases, Kylo was still a kid that haven't really done anything wrong (whether he found the Dark-Side tempting or not is irrelevant), while Jacen was responsible for quite a lot of reprehensible acts, and was already in a state of open hostility with the Jedi. Again, knowing what I know about Luke, both from the Canon and the EU, I simply don't buy that scene. As you said, we’ve established our point of disagreement in this. TLJ Luke was no more capable of murder than his legends counterpart. That being said, I will point out that TLJ Luke and his legends version are different characters. One evolved over the course of decades of novels to become the Grandmaster of the Jedi Order we know. The other was designed to be a more direct extension of the good but flawed young man in the original trilogy of films. I think both are legitimate versions of the character.
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Post by Andrew Waples on Mar 29, 2018 12:16:54 GMT
Anakin had visions of Padme's death in Ep III. He went to desperate lengths to prevent it... but in doing so, set in motion the events that would lead to her death. (In TLJ, Luke contemplating killing Ben, sensing what he might become, also caused the very thing Luke wanted to prevent) So predestination paradoxes definitely are a thing in the Star Wars universe. Anakin and Luke are also two separate and very different characters, what makes sense for one makes very little sense for the other. They're also family. Owen and Beru's exchange: "Luke is just not a farmer, Owen. He has to much of his father in him. That's what I'm afraid of."
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Post by Sifr on Mar 29, 2018 12:22:45 GMT
Anakin and Luke are also two separate and very different characters, what makes sense for one makes very little sense for the other. Ignoring that they share the same genetics and many of the same character traits. (As does Ben)
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Post by CrutchCricket on Mar 29, 2018 12:25:54 GMT
Compare all the crap that Vader put Luke through before he snapped, versus him sensing the dark side in Ben while he sleeps. It's as if all the character development he acquired in RoTJ's DSII duel was tossed into the trash.The entire Saga, all the EU, all the fans hopes & dreams, our happiness over the holidays was ALL tossed in the bin Funny, when I said this three years ago, people thought I was insane.
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Post by Sifr on Mar 29, 2018 13:20:44 GMT
Ignoring that they share the same genetics and many of the same character traits. (As does Ben) As I said, the familial connection means nothing when it comes to a character making a decision that's inherently contradictory to his principles and his past decisions. As for similar character traits, I'll have to disagree on that. Luke and Anakin couldn't be more different if they were strangers from different races. And no, a bit of recklessness in Luke's youth is not enough to make that statement stick. Ben, Luke and Anakin come across as petulant whiners in their youth, have displayed recklessness and over-confidence on several occasions, occasional sudden bursts of anger, have a tendency to act/think like they know better than anyone else and have all felt the temptation of the Dark Side at one point or another... All three also abandoned the Jedi and cut themselves off from everyone/thing they'd previously cared about. Anakin and Ben by turning to the Dark Side and rejecting their former personas to become Vader and Kylo, while Luke abandoned training a new generation of Jedi and chose to cut himself off from the Force and go into self-imposed exile. Yeah, there's zero similarities whatsoever.
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Post by Andrew Waples on Mar 29, 2018 13:34:15 GMT
They're also family. Owen and Beru's exchange: "Luke is just not a farmer, Owen. He has to much of his father in him. That's what I'm afraid of." Family? That's weak IMO. A character that was established in a particular way doesn't go and do something that's OOC for him just because "family". We can disagree about whether it makes sense or not for Luke in particular to act in a certain way, but the fact that his father did something literally means nothing in this equation. Ignoring that they share the same genetics and many of the same character traits. (As does Ben) As I said, the familial connection means nothing when it comes to a character making a decision that's inherently contradictory to his principles and his past decisions. As for similar character traits, I'll have to disagree on that. Luke and Anakin couldn't be more different if they were strangers from different races. And no, a bit of recklessness in Luke's youth is not enough to make that statement stick. So, then how do you explain, Owen's "he has to much of his father in him"? Keep in mind this is George's writing here.
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