Iakus
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Post by Iakus on Mar 29, 2018 14:30:49 GMT
Family? That's weak IMO. A character that was established in a particular way doesn't go and do something that's OOC for him just because "family". We can disagree about whether it makes sense or not for Luke in particular to act in a certain way, but the fact that his father did something literally means nothing in this equation. As I said, the familial connection means nothing when it comes to a character making a decision that's inherently contradictory to his principles and his past decisions. As for similar character traits, I'll have to disagree on that. Luke and Anakin couldn't be more different if they were strangers from different races. And no, a bit of recklessness in Luke's youth is not enough to make that statement stick. So, then how do you explain, Owen's "he has to much of his father in him"? Keep in mind this is George's writing here. You mean before he determined that Vader was Luke's father? Owen and Beru's "he has too much of his father in him" meant that Luke would not be satisfied being a farmer. He's too restless. He was going to run off and get himself killed "on some damn fool crusade" as Obi-Won put it. Or as Yoda ended up putting it: This one, a long time have I watched. All his life has he looked away to the future, the horizon. Never his mind on where he was [pokes Luke]. Hmm? What he was doing.
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Post by alanc9 on Mar 29, 2018 15:00:57 GMT
No, Force visions don't count. Particularly since "always in motion, is the future" Seems rather arbitrary, I guess because he would be the first Jedi to make a rash decision based on a Force vision? Well, you can make a case that Force visions of the future have a terrible track record. It's a pretty common SF and fantasy trope that predicting the future only works when shadowy offstage characters are doing it. If a main character does it, it's going to go wrong somehow. Come to think of it, you can also make a case that the Force itself has a terrible track record and the galaxy would be better off without it.
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Post by Sifr on Mar 29, 2018 15:25:19 GMT
Well, you can make a case that Force visions of the future have a terrible track record. It's a pretty common SF and fantasy trope that predicting the future only works when shadowy offstage characters are doing it. If a main character does it, it's going to go wrong somehow. Come to think of it, you can also make a case that the Force itself has a terrible track record and the galaxy would be better off without it. Darth Zash from SWTOR wishes she'd been that lucky, all her visions of the future were mistaken in some way.
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Post by Hier0phant on Mar 29, 2018 15:43:33 GMT
No, Force visions don't count. Particularly since "always in motion, is the future" Seems rather arbitrary, I guess because he would be the first Jedi to make a rash decision based on a Force vision? It's convenient how Obi-Wan, Yoda, and Anakin weren't around to teach Luke about the dangers of force visions. Like how they can become self fulfilling prophecies that can potentially lead to the destruction of an entire order.
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Post by smilesja on Mar 29, 2018 16:06:31 GMT
To be honest the events in Empire Strikes Back happened BEFORE Luke underwent character development.
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Iakus
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Post by Iakus on Mar 29, 2018 16:08:32 GMT
Seems rather arbitrary, I guess because he would be the first Jedi to make a rash decision based on a Force vision? Well, you can make a case that Force visions of the future have a terrible track record. It's a pretty common SF and fantasy trope that predicting the future only works when shadowy offstage characters are doing it. If a main character does it, it's going to go wrong somehow. Come to think of it, you can also make a case that the Force itself has a terrible track record and the galaxy would be better off without it. The Force is created by life. As long as there are living beings in the galaxy, it's going to be around. You can argue that the philosophies surrounding using it are flawed, that the Force itself is poorly understood or misused, but it is there to stay, and people will continue to be born sensitive to it, and capable of being corrupted by it, or channeling it towards positive goals (kinda like magic in Thedas)
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Post by Iakus on Mar 29, 2018 16:09:27 GMT
To be honest the events in Empire Strikes Back happened BEFORE Luke underwent character development. I'd say they were the catalyst that triggered his growth as a character.
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Post by Heimdall on Mar 29, 2018 16:37:25 GMT
Seems rather arbitrary, I guess because he would be the first Jedi to make a rash decision based on a Force vision? Well, you can make a case that Force visions of the future have a terrible track record. It's a pretty common SF and fantasy trope that predicting the future only works when shadowy offstage characters are doing it. If a main character does it, it's going to go wrong somehow. Come to think of it, you can also make a case that the Force itself has a terrible track record and the galaxy would be better off without it. Sure, but sometimes they are accurate and come true. In fact, that seems to happen more often than not just not as originally expected. I’m not really sure what the point of this line of thinking is though. Is it that Luke should have not given credence to a Force vision? But we aren’t talking about Luke having a reasoned reaction to his vision, we’re talking about him having a fear driven reaction to a traumatic vision of Ben killing everything he loved.
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Post by Sifr on Mar 29, 2018 16:59:27 GMT
I don't really recognize Luke's actions in the Disney canon as legitimate tbh. This is what I've been saying after all, that he feels completely out of character compared to how he was established previously. The washout that segregated himself on an island and molested a titty-monster isn't the same guy, the original Luke might as well be dead as far as I'm concerned. There were 30 years between ROTJ and TFA, in comparison, we only spent 4 years with Luke between in the orig-trig. That's 30 years of experiences (good and bad) that shaped Luke that we know little-to-nothing about, which would justify his decision to pull a Obi-Wan/Yoda and go live as a hermit in the middle of nowhere. I'm not saying that it's what I'd have preferred to see Luke's life be like after he completed his hero's journey, but sometimes even in fantasy, reality ensues. People had much the same issue when it came to Revan in TOR, because he ended up going a little crazy after being held prisoner (and tortured) for over 300 years. It sucks when heroes you enjoy don't get a happy ending, but sometimes, it happens. (Compared to the Starks in ASOIAF, I'd say Luke's fate could have been much worse. At least he went out like a boss, complete with epic mic-drop)
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Post by House Targaryen on Mar 29, 2018 17:07:21 GMT
No, Force visions don't count. Particularly since "always in motion, is the future" Guys, we don't really need to debate it anymore. Episode 8 was simply BAD. Badly written, badly directed. Ruin Johnson admitted that he more-or-less wanted to troll the fanbase. He was very successful in this mission. Let's try to focus on the SOLO movie which will be released in only a handful of weeks. Believe it or not, I am still optimistic It was? ugh okay.
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Post by Iakus on Mar 29, 2018 17:14:15 GMT
I don't really recognize Luke's actions in the Disney canon as legitimate tbh. This is what I've been saying after all, that he feels completely out of character compared to how he was established previously. The washout that segregated himself on an island and molested a titty-monster isn't the same guy, the original Luke might as well be dead as far as I'm concerned. There were 30 years between ROTJ and TFA, in comparison, we only spent 4 years with Luke between in the orig-trig. That's 30 years of experiences (good and bad) that shaped Luke that we know little-to-nothing about, which would justify his decision to pull a Obi-Wan/Yoda and go live as a hermit in the middle of nowhere. It's crappy storytelling. Plain and simple.
I'm not saying that it's what I'd have preferred to see Luke's life be like after he completed his hero's journey, but sometimes even in fantasy, reality ensues. People had much the same issue when it came to Revan in TOR, because he ended up going a little crazy after being held prisoner (and tortured) for over 300 years. Not to mention Revan was a player character who got canonized to be a certain way.
It sucks when heroes you enjoy don't get a happy ending, but sometimes, it happens.
(Compared to the Starks in ASOIAF, I'd say Luke's fate could have been much worse. At least he went out like a boss, complete with epic mic-drop)
"At least he wasn't a Stark" is a VERY low bar to hold. I didn't see him going out like a boss. I saw a broken old man hiding from his responsibilities. Who only at the very end, pulled a light show out of his *ss to save the last dozen or so Resistance members.
Disney is sh*tting on the original characters so they can trot out their own lineup of characters to be the REAL heroes of the galaxy.
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Post by Iakus on Mar 29, 2018 17:36:03 GMT
There were 30 years between ROTJ and TFA, in comparison, we only spent 4 years with Luke between in the orig-trig. That's 30 years of experiences (good and bad) that shaped Luke that we know little-to-nothing about, which would justify his decision to pull a Obi-Wan/Yoda and go live as a hermit in the middle of nowhere. I'm not saying that it's what I'd have preferred to see Luke's life be like after he completed his hero's journey, but sometimes even in fantasy, reality ensues. People had much the same issue when it came to Revan in TOR, because he ended up going a little crazy after being held prisoner (and tortured) for over 300 years. It sucks when heroes you enjoy don't get a happy ending, but sometimes, it happens. (Compared to the Starks in ASOIAF, I'd say Luke's fate could have been much worse. At least he went out like a boss, complete with epic mic-drop) By all means, show me whatever it was that reduced Luke to this state. (and again, the supposed catalyst of his derangement doesn't make sense to me) But that's not what these movies are about I guess, it's all about getting to the inane punchline, not about the journey. Who is Snoke? Who are the Knights of Ren? And many many other questions. The truth (as I see it) is that TLJ is an abysmal movie that failed at telling even its barely coherent story. This isn't about a "bad ending", this is about bad story-telling, my problems with Luke's portrayal barely scratch the surface of everything I disliked about TLJ. I mean, even just the start of the movie, the idiotic back-and-forth between hotshot-pilot-guy and General Weasley, was the cringiest shit Iv'e seen in a long while. How did someone like Hux even become an admiral? (for that matter, how do you become a movie director / writer when this is the level of your writing?) And there's plenty of other stuff of course, but I really don't have the motivation to lay it all out, this is not me as a super-fan nitpicking, this is me saying "oh-god-kill-it-with-fire". At this point I want nothing to do with any of this. If you told me a few years ago that SW will get a new Trilogy and that I would have no interest in watching it again, or indeed watching the next movie, I would have called you crazy, but here we are.
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Post by Sifr on Mar 29, 2018 18:03:54 GMT
The line about certain fans being "mad the movie isn't closer to the one they wrote in their heads" definitely rings true.
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Post by alanc9 on Mar 29, 2018 18:08:10 GMT
Well, you can make a case that Force visions of the future have a terrible track record. It's a pretty common SF and fantasy trope that predicting the future only works when shadowy offstage characters are doing it. If a main character does it, it's going to go wrong somehow. Come to think of it, you can also make a case that the Force itself has a terrible track record and the galaxy would be better off without it. Sure, but sometimes they are accurate and come true. In fact, that seems to happen more often than not just not as originally expected. I’m not really sure what the point of this line of thinking is though. Is it that Luke should have not given credence to a Force vision? But we aren’t talking about Luke having a reasoned reaction to his vision, we’re talking about him having a fear driven reaction to a traumatic vision of Ben killing everything he loved. Well, that was Iakus' point, I guess. You shouldn't pay attention to Force visions because you might be wrong about what they mean. (Ask Snoke about that, right?) Or course, you might be wrong about any evidence whatsoever, but interpreting Force visions does seem to have a relatively high failure rate. But yeah, debating this like it was a reasoned response is not sensible. I think the point was more that he shouldn't have had the emotional response because... hero, I guess?
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Post by alanc9 on Mar 29, 2018 18:11:03 GMT
Guys, we don't really need to debate it anymore. Episode 8 was simply BAD. Badly written, badly directed. Ruin Johnson admitted that he more-or-less wanted to troll the fanbase. He was very successful in this mission. Let's try to focus on the SOLO movie which will be released in only a handful of weeks. Who's the "we" there?
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Post by Sifr on Mar 29, 2018 18:18:16 GMT
By all means, show me whatever it was that reduced Luke to this state. (and again, the supposed catalyst of his derangement doesn't make sense to me) You mean, show you something from the thirty years we know nothing about? If I had to guess, it's that Luke's idealism and optimism (which he's always shown), suddenly getting confronted with the harsh realisation that he can't solve everything, that some people can't be redeemed and that he severely f**ked up royally when it came to dealing with the darkness he sensed in his nephew. Someone that idealistic having his hopes and dreams come crashing down around him along with witnessing all he'd built (the Jedi academy) in ruins and many friends/pupils slaughtered... yeah, I can imagine something like that crushing Luke's spirit and sending him into a depressive spiral we only see him escape from at the end of Last Jedi.
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Post by Iakus on Mar 29, 2018 18:20:11 GMT
Sure, but sometimes they are accurate and come true. In fact, that seems to happen more often than not just not as originally expected. I’m not really sure what the point of this line of thinking is though. Is it that Luke should have not given credence to a Force vision? But we aren’t talking about Luke having a reasoned reaction to his vision, we’re talking about him having a fear driven reaction to a traumatic vision of Ben killing everything he loved. Well, that was Iakus' point, I guess. You shouldn't pay attention to Force visions because you might be wrong about what they mean. (Ask Snoke about that, right?) Or course, you might be wrong about any evidence whatsoever, but interpreting Force visions does seem to have a relatively high failure rate. But yeah, debating this like it was a reasoned response is not sensible. I think the point was more that he shouldn't have had the emotional response because... hero, I guess? Because...firsthand experience in trusting those visions too much.
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Post by Iakus on Mar 29, 2018 18:27:10 GMT
By all means, show me whatever it was that reduced Luke to this state. (and again, the supposed catalyst of his derangement doesn't make sense to me) You mean, show you something from the thirty years we know nothing about? If I had to guess, it's that Luke's idealism and optimism (which he's always shown), suddenly getting confronted with the harsh realisation that he can't solve everything, that some people can't be redeemed and that he severely f**ked up royally when it came to dealing with the darkness he sensed in his nephew. Someone that idealistic having his hopes and dreams come crashing down around him along with witnessing all he'd built (the Jedi academy) in ruins and many friends/pupils slaughtered... yeah, I can imagine something like that crushing Luke's spirit and sending him into a depressive spiral we only see him escape from at the end of Last Jedi. Yeah he's never experienced anything like that before...
This explains why he sat out Return of the Jedi...
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Post by Sifr on Mar 29, 2018 18:40:26 GMT
You mean, show you something from the thirty years we know nothing about? If I had to guess, it's that Luke's idealism and optimism (which he's always shown), suddenly getting confronted with the harsh realisation that he can't solve everything, that some people can't be redeemed and that he severely f**ked up royally when it came to dealing with the darkness he sensed in his nephew. Someone that idealistic having his hopes and dreams come crashing down around him along with witnessing all he'd built (the Jedi academy) in ruins and many friends/pupils slaughtered... yeah, I can imagine something like that crushing Luke's spirit and sending him into a depressive spiral we only see him escape from at the end of Last Jedi. Yeah he's never experienced anything like that before...
This explains why he sat out Return of the Jedi...
That only cost Luke a hand (which was easily replaced) and as Vader says, on some level he knew already. Nothing that happened there affected or harmed anyone or anything he cared about, only him. Whereas watching a bunch of your friends and students die, while your temple burns around you, because you screwed up, is a totally different scenario. Imagine in Han and Leia had been killed in Empire, do we think that Luke would have handled this at all well? I suspect he wouldn't. This was a guy left Yoda's training prematurely because he sensed his friends were in trouble and was afraid what would happen to them in his absence. What if he'd gotten there and they were already dead at Vader's hand? Cause I could imagine Luke being far more bitter and unwilling to consider redeeming Vader in this version of ROTJ.
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Post by Iakus on Mar 29, 2018 18:55:09 GMT
Yeah he's never experienced anything like that before...
This explains why he sat out Return of the Jedi...
That only cost Luke a hand (which was easily replaced) and as Vader says, on some level he knew already. Nothing that happened there affected or harmed anyone or anything he cared about, only him. Whereas watching a bunch of your friends and students die, while your temple burns around you, because you screwed up, is a totally different scenario. Imagine in Han and Leia had been killed in Empire, do we think that Luke would have handled this at all well? I suspect he wouldn't. This was a guy left Yoda's training prematurely because he sensed his friends were in trouble and was afraid what would happen to them in his absence. What if he'd gotten there and they were already dead at Vader's hand? Cause I could imagine Luke being far more bitter and unwilling to consider redeeming Vader in this version of ROTJ. He got his ass handed to him by the guy who murdered his mentor before his eyes, and whom he believed betrayed and killed his father (along with a host of other atrocities) only to learn that this was in fact, his father. HIS FATHER was the second most hated man in the galaxy! His entire past was a lie! And he rushed off half-trained and literally MADE EVERYTHING WORSE! HEck my nephew, who was like five at the time when I first showed him this movie even noted "He went to rescue his friends, but they needed to rescue him"
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Post by Sifr on Mar 29, 2018 18:58:05 GMT
Yes. Show me a logical progression that actually makes sense, don't throw a scene that doesn't make sense to begin with and then use it as an excuse. So movies need to hold our hands and provide explanations for everything in order to enjoy them? And if we don't like those explanations or the movie does something we object to, then it stops making sense? Welp, guess I can't enjoy Groundhog Day anymore, because it never explained the cause of the time loop.
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Post by Iakus on Mar 29, 2018 19:02:38 GMT
Yes. Show me a logical progression that actually makes sense, don't throw a scene that doesn't make sense to begin with and then use it as an excuse. So movies need to hold our hands and provide explanations for everything in order to enjoy them? When did a logical procession of events stop being good writing and became "hand holding" instead?
If the character acts in a manner inconsistent with his character growth, or otherwise devolves, yes. Phil's character growth made sense, even if the cause of the loop was never explained.
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Post by Sifr on Mar 29, 2018 20:14:33 GMT
When did a logical procession of events stop being good writing and became "hand holding" instead? Because most fans who seem to criticise the film act like the movie must explain everything about Luke's life over the past 30 years, rather than giving us only the relevant information that we need for the plot. Luke screwed up with Kylo and that failure, lead him to become bitter, depressed and enter a self-imposed exile. Leia and Han trusted him with their son and Luke feels like he failed (all of) them, which is why he couldn't bear to face them afterwards. But the explanation that Luke gives about his actions that night, seem pretty straight forward; "I saw darkness. I sensed it building in him. I'd seen it in moments during his training. But then I looked inside, and it was beyond what I ever imagined. Snoke had already turned his heart. He would bring destruction and pain and death, and the death of everything I loved because of what he will become, and for the briefest of moment of pure instinct, I thought I could stop it. It passed like a fleeting shadow, and I was left with shame and consequence. And the last thing I saw were the eyes of a frightened boy who's Master had failed him."
--- Don't get me wrong, I'm not defending the film as being without any flaws or points of criticism. The entire Finn subplot can be removed entirely and wouldn't change a thing (it'd actually tighten up the film's pacing) and unless Holdo was afraid of spies being how the First Order was tracking them through Light Speed, she could have told everyone the plan far sooner. But I don't agree that Luke feels out-of-character here, even though it was unexpected to see our hero in a less-than-heroic light. Sure, it was sad to learn he suffered a lot of pain and regret in his life following ROTJ and it might have been better if we'd seen some of the joys in his life, to contrast with the low place we find him in during TFA/TLJ. But I overall enjoy Luke's arc in the film. He rediscovers the hope that he'd lost, comes to terms with some of his demons, lays down his burden and passes the torch to the next generation. Much like Obi-Wan, Luke chooses to sacrifice himself to serve as a distraction and allow his friends the chance to escape, while simultaneously taking his former pupil back to school. And you can't say that his journey ending the same way it began, in the light of twin suns, wasn't a great bit of visual storytelling that brought everything back around full circle.
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Iakus
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Post by Iakus on Mar 29, 2018 20:40:39 GMT
When did a logical procession of events stop being good writing and became "hand holding" instead? Because most fans who seem to criticise the film act like the movie must explain everything about Luke's life over the past 30 years, rather than giving us only the relevant information that we need for the plot. Luke screwed up with Kylo and that failure, lead him to become bitter, depressed and enter a self-imposed exile. Leia and Han trusted him with their son and Luke feels like he failed (all of) them, which is why he couldn't bear to face them afterwards. But the explanation that Luke gives about his actions that night, seem pretty straight forward; "I saw darkness. I sensed it building in him. I'd seen it in moments during his training. But then I looked inside, and it was beyond what I ever imagined. Snoke had already turned his heart. He would bring destruction and pain and death, and the death of everything I loved because of what he will become, and for the briefest of moment of pure instinct, I thought I could stop it. It passed like a fleeting shadow, and I was left with shame and consequence. And the last thing I saw were the eyes of a frightened boy who's Master had failed him." [/i] The explanation is completely nonsensical, given his past experiences, the ones WE WERE SHOWN in the original trilogy. Namely the redemption of Darth Vader. It's also contrary to the personality of the original trilogy which again WE HAVE BEEN SHOWN, as a man who simply Does. Not. Quit. If there was any flaw to be exploited, it would be that. He'd never have given up on Ben. He would never have goneinto exile. He'd have dusted himself off and try again (just as he did in Return of the Jedi, both in rescuing Han and in confronting Vader a second time) The stupidity of the Finn subplot and Vice Admiral Holdo, while painful to the point of being cringeworthy, doesn't hold a candle to the diservice they did to Luke, imo. He was a broken old man who spent years hiding from his mistakes rather than do whatever was in his power to make it right. He "passes the torch" by teaching Rey F*ck All about the Force or being a Jedi (she could do everything he could do, but better, anyway). And recovers from his ennui just in time to save a small freighter's worth of people and then die because Disney had sucked all the life from this iconic character before discarding him like an old lightsaber. This episode wasn't about sparking the light of the future, it was about tearing down cherished legends.
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Post by Heimdall on Mar 29, 2018 21:21:39 GMT
It's less me not liking the explanation, and more me finding it insufficient. I'm fully capable of not liking something but respecting it on grounds of good story-telling. If there’s something we can agree on, it’s that Johnson struggles with storytelling. The Last Jedi is bursting to the gills with ideas that didn’t gel together or just weren’t executed well.
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