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Post by alanc9 on Mar 30, 2018 23:28:29 GMT
Where'd you get the idea that a Carrie Fisher death scene was ever on the table? Because one by one they've been killing off the original characters in various ignoble ways? I should have been more specific. I meant, how did he think Leia was going to die in Episode VIII. IX, sure. And "ignoble" is a bit much, even for you. Did you maybe mean a different word?
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Post by colfoley on Mar 31, 2018 1:14:35 GMT
I am afraid I cannot articulate EXACTLY why this movie was so PROFOUNDLY disappointing... but it was. I actually went home & re-thought my life Some guesses as to why it still stings me personally; - I was a casual Rian Johnson fan, liked Looper & Brick very much - I was excited to see more info (or at least hints) about Snoke, TFO & the Knights o' Ren - Rey's character arc was pretty compelling, I was looking forward to see her overcome some adversity - I was excited to see a new lightsaber or 2 - Hoping for a cool Carrie Fisher death scene - Excited to see Luke as a Jedi Master - Curious as to how Ben/Kylo re-built his saber after it was damaged - I was glad that my beloved Star Wars movies seemed to be in capable hands... I went home and downloaded the Heir to the Empire trilogy and started rereading the Tales of the Jedi series. I wanted to see: Finn grow as a character. He was the best part of TFA, imo. Luke in a mentoring role Rey learning about her past, and about the Force Ben growing into a true villain, or be on the path to redemption, or at least stop being a whiny emo kid (the movie was at least partly successful in that) The Knights of Ren Alas, this movie's sole purpose seemed to be trolling those who grew up on the original movies. I saw all of that in TLJ. Minus the KoR
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Post by Iakus on Mar 31, 2018 1:15:05 GMT
Because one by one they've been killing off the original characters in various ignoble ways? I should have been more specific. I meant, how did he think Leia was going to die in Episode VIII. IX, sure. And "ignoble" is a bit much, even for you. Did you maybe mean a different word? In theory, they could have killed Leia off in the attack (skipping the Mary Poppins scene) Have her succumb to her injuries later in the movie, or be the one to sacrifice herself instead of Holdo (the last part would have taken some CGI though) And not really. Han and Luke were broken, pathetic old men who failed at life, and died in rather sad attempts to redeem themselves. Han's death, at least, made a bit of sense.
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Post by Iakus on Mar 31, 2018 1:17:46 GMT
I went home and downloaded the Heir to the Empire trilogy and started rereading the Tales of the Jedi series. I wanted to see: Finn grow as a character. He was the best part of TFA, imo. Luke in a mentoring role Rey learning about her past, and about the Force Ben growing into a true villain, or be on the path to redemption, or at least stop being a whiny emo kid (the movie was at least partly successful in that) The Knights of Ren Alas, this movie's sole purpose seemed to be trolling those who grew up on the original movies. I saw all of that in TLJ. Minus the KoR Finn's arc was an utter waste of time. Luke didn't mentor sh*t. Kylo Ren was more of a mentor than he was! What Rey learned was Kylo's mantra: "Let the past die. Kill it if you have to". And she waves a lightsaber at a rock.
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Post by colfoley on Mar 31, 2018 1:22:34 GMT
I saw all of that in TLJ. Minus the KoR Finn's arc was an utter waste of time. Luke didn't mentor sh*t. Kylo Ren was more of a mentor than he was! What Rey learned was Kylo's mantra: "Let the past die. Kill it if you have to". And she waves a lightsaber at a rock. Perhaps but he still had one, and still grew as a character. Granted I still find the whole thing a little annoying but 'mercenary with a heart of gold who is nevertheless out for himself' to 'Rebel Scum' is a growth arc. 'I will teach you the ways of the Force, tommorow your first lesson begins.' Is not being a mentor? Also, no she did not learn anything real from Kylo. Certainly not that message. She chose to preserve and honor the past by keeping the Ancient Jedi texts intact.
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Post by colfoley on Mar 31, 2018 1:24:19 GMT
Speaking of which I really love the Yoda scene.
"But the Sacred Ancient texts!"
"Oh? Read them have you? Page turners they were not."
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Post by Iakus on Mar 31, 2018 1:29:09 GMT
Finn's arc was an utter waste of time. Luke didn't mentor sh*t. Kylo Ren was more of a mentor than he was! What Rey learned was Kylo's mantra: "Let the past die. Kill it if you have to". And she waves a lightsaber at a rock. Perhaps but he still had one, and still grew as a character. Granted I still find the whole thing a little annoying but 'mercenary with a heart of gold who is nevertheless out for himself' to 'Rebel Scum' is a growth arc. 'I will teach you the ways of the Force, tommorow your first lesson begins.' Is not being a mentor? Also, no she did not learn anything real from Kylo. Certainly not that message. She chose to preserve and honor the past by keeping the Ancient Jedi texts intact. Having an arc doesn't mean he grew as a character. He was never a mercenary, he was a scared kid who was trying to get away from the First Order until he found it in himself to stand up to them. That was the LAST movie. Where'd he go from there? And no, Luke wasn't being a mentor. He wasn't teaching her anything. HEll, he was actively NOT teaching her anything. She took the texts herself (not that she's likely to learn anything from them, she can already do pretty much everything) Gawd, I cringed at that scene. Frank Oz was absolutely wasted on that! It was worse than Poe's "Yo momma" joke at the start of the movie.
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Post by colfoley on Mar 31, 2018 2:00:04 GMT
Perhaps but he still had one, and still grew as a character. Granted I still find the whole thing a little annoying but 'mercenary with a heart of gold who is nevertheless out for himself' to 'Rebel Scum' is a growth arc. 'I will teach you the ways of the Force, tommorow your first lesson begins.' Is not being a mentor? Also, no she did not learn anything real from Kylo. Certainly not that message. She chose to preserve and honor the past by keeping the Ancient Jedi texts intact. Having an arc doesn't mean he grew as a character. He was never a mercenary, he was a scared kid who was trying to get away from the First Order until he found it in himself to stand up to them. That was the LAST movie. Where'd he go from there? And no, Luke wasn't being a mentor. He wasn't teaching her anything. HEll, he was actively NOT teaching her anything. She took the texts herself (not that she's likely to learn anything from them, she can already do pretty much everything) Gawd, I cringed at that scene. Frank Oz was absolutely wasted on that! It was worse than Poe's "Yo momma" joke at the start of the movie. He was only interested in himself and surviving the First Order. He mad the consious decision to fight the First Order and becoe Rebel Scum because of the events of the movie. If that's not character growth, in context, I am not sure what is. He taught her that the Jedi didn't own the Force, that it was vanity to imply they did. A vital lesson. Amongst a great many things but that was the most important and perhaps the lesson she should have learned considering she just charged off to save Kylo (thus repeating his mistake, which then goes into Yoda's 'failure is our greatest teacher') and then ended up making things much worse. Heh heh. "I really need to talk to General Hux...its about his mother." "OPEN FIRE" "BB-8 punch it!" Poor Hux.
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Post by mybudgee on Mar 31, 2018 2:36:50 GMT
I went home and downloaded the Heir to the Empire trilogy and started rereading the Tales of the Jedi series. I wanted to see: Finn grow as a character. He was the best part of TFA, imo. Luke in a mentoring role Rey learning about her past, and about the Force Ben growing into a true villain, or be on the path to redemption, or at least stop being a whiny emo kid (the movie was at least partly successful in that) The Knights of Ren Alas, this movie's sole purpose seemed to be trolling those who grew up on the original movies. I saw all of that in TLJ. Minus the KoR LoL
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Post by Pearl on Mar 31, 2018 2:41:39 GMT
Finn grow as a character. He was the best part of TFA, imo. Agreed. If Finn wasn't such a likable character, I would have walked out during his mind-numbing slog in TLJ. I was disappointed to see that he didn't really grow as a character over the course of TLJ (although I'm pretty sure that growth for any character would have been nigh-on impossible had they been shoved into his role), and I was equally disappointed that the annoying pilot chick didn't end up with a blaster bolt in her head at the end of the movie.
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Post by Iakus on Mar 31, 2018 2:43:24 GMT
Having an arc doesn't mean he grew as a character. He was never a mercenary, he was a scared kid who was trying to get away from the First Order until he found it in himself to stand up to them. That was the LAST movie. Where'd he go from there? And no, Luke wasn't being a mentor. He wasn't teaching her anything. HEll, he was actively NOT teaching her anything. She took the texts herself (not that she's likely to learn anything from them, she can already do pretty much everything) Gawd, I cringed at that scene. Frank Oz was absolutely wasted on that! It was worse than Poe's "Yo momma" joke at the start of the movie. He was only interested in himself and surviving the First Order. He mad the consious decision to fight the First Order and becoe Rebel Scum because of the events of the movie. If that's not character growth, in context, I am not sure what is. That was last movie. How did he develop in this one? Funny, the Jedi always seemed to refer to the Force as an "ally", not a possession. But Luke's point seemed to be that Jedi are failures. That there is NOTHING WORTH learning. Forget the "thousand generations" the Jedi safeguarded the galaxy. Forget the dangers of falling to the Dark Side. Forget the techniques that can channel the Force to useful purposes, to help others, defend the weak. Luke''s a failure, and therefore the entire CONCEPT of the Jedi was failure. That's not mentoring. That's the opposite of being a mentor. Jake Skywalker is a broken old man, an effing embarrassment. Poor me, for having to sit through that tripe.
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Post by colfoley on Mar 31, 2018 3:09:19 GMT
I saw all of that in TLJ. Minus the KoR LoL we are discussing our opinions...are we not?
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Post by mybudgee on Mar 31, 2018 3:09:55 GMT
Finn grow as a character. He was the best part of TFA, imo ...disappointed that the annoying pilot chick didn't end up with a blaster bolt in her head at the end of the movie. THIS annoying pilot chick? Because she should have died in that collision with Finn (as would he) and saved us the agony of those horrific lines...
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Post by mybudgee on Mar 31, 2018 3:11:11 GMT
LoL we are discussing our opinions...are we not? As long as it's truly your opinion, rather than the opinion you feel you "should have"
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Post by colfoley on Mar 31, 2018 3:19:20 GMT
we are discussing our opinions...are we not? As long as it's truly your opinion, rather than the opinion you feel you "should have" of course it's my opinion.
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Post by alanc9 on Mar 31, 2018 4:14:05 GMT
we are discussing our opinions...are we not? As long as it's truly your opinion, rather than the opinion you feel you "should have You've played this card before, and I've never understood where you're going with it. Why would you suspect -- or is it hope? -- that people who say they like the film don't actually like it?
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Post by alanc9 on Mar 31, 2018 4:25:09 GMT
Gawd, I cringed at that scene. Frank Oz was absolutely wasted on that! It was worse than Poe's "Yo momma" joke at the start of the movie. I get the feeling that if you sorted people according to their reaction to this scene you'd find a lot of stuff correlating.
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Post by alanc9 on Mar 31, 2018 4:43:31 GMT
I should have been more specific. I meant, how did he think Leia was going to die in Episode VIII. IX, sure. And "ignoble" is a bit much, even for you. Did you maybe mean a different word? In theory, they could have killed Leia off in the attack (skipping the Mary Poppins scene) Have her succumb to her injuries later in the movie, or be the one to sacrifice herself instead of Holdo (the last part would have taken some CGI though) And not really. Han and Luke were broken, pathetic old men who failed at life, and died in rather sad attempts to redeem themselves. Han's death, at least, made a bit of sense. OK. Either way you'd need a bunch of reshoots in the later sequences, but it's doable. It's hard to see this as actually improving VIII, though it would have made IX easier to write. I'm still not convinced that you're using "ignoble" properly there. How can trying to redeem your son or rescue the remnants of the Resistance be "ignoble"? If you want to say that their lives rather than their deaths had been ignoble, that's another matter. (I wouldn't concur in such a judgement, of course, but it passes the laugh test.)
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Post by mybudgee on Mar 31, 2018 5:04:41 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Mar 31, 2018 5:53:05 GMT
I Read something on another forum that I found quite amusing. Star Wars: Episode IX be named "From a Nap". This way, the newest trilogy would go as follows: The Force Awakens The Last Jedi From a Nap However I think it should be... The Force Awakens The Last Jedi From a Nightmare
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Post by colfoley on Mar 31, 2018 6:10:01 GMT
Another thing about that scene and Luke.
Luke: meh the Jedi is horrible. Meh the Jedi must die.
A few moments later.
Luke: but the sacred jedi texts!
God I love Luke. Probably my second favorite male character in fiction.
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Post by mybudgee on Mar 31, 2018 6:25:04 GMT
As long as it's truly your opinion, rather than the opinion you feel you "should have" You've played this card before, and I've never understood where you're going with it. Why would you suspect -- or is it hope? -- that people who say they like the film don't actually like it? alanc9; please allow me to tell you a short story. It's 100% true BTW. Once upon a time during last December I went to see a movie, one which I was VERY excited to see. I had been anticipating it for over a year, in many ways I had been anticipating it since I was in 1st or 2nd grade (I saw the Empire Strikes Back in theaters when I was about 7 or so). This film was Star Wars: Episode 8. This film was not going to be "your father's Star Wars movie", I knew that from the trailers & the cryptic quotes by the cast and crew leading up to release. I also had a feeling it would break some new ground, as episode 7 was very derivative and the Saga films in general were getting a bit formulaic. I remained optimistic, especially as I was a fan of episode 7 & Rogue One. Rian Johnson had yet to make a bad film at that point, as I liked Brick & Looper very much. So, my son & I went on opening night. It was like a wave of ice water hit me. I was shocked, absolutely gobsmacked. I didn't know how to react. Oddly, my 10 year-old son had quite a few questions about TLJ as we left and drove home, only one or two of which I could answer. This was a disturbing sign. As I thought about it over the next day or two, I was increasingly uncomfortable. This film simply cause a deep sense of unease with me. I tried to rationalize it, I tried to minimize the glaring problems, I tried to tell myself that this is simply the quality that I must learn to expect from huge corporations in regard to most movies; they must appeal to as many demographics and audiences in order to maximize profits. Their objective is NEVER ever quality storytelling or making grouchy old guys happy. It is simply greed on a gargantuan scale. Because of this realization, I became angry. I felt betrayed. I was bitter because it felt like the prequels all over again. It was a kind of hinted at, subtle thing JJ did in episode 7, "this will begin to make things right again" where I felt a sense of relief as the credits rolled. I was saying to myself "Star Wars is gonna be okay, the damage from the prequels will be atoned for". How wrong I was. I then felt my anger ebb, and a new sense of acceptance washed over me. Feminism was good, right? We NEED to just accept stupid things and our fandoms being twisted & bent to this movement's will. It was good for everyone, right? Uh... not exactly. 3rd Wave feminism is largely pointless, as western women aren't REALLY oppressed, at least not in the sense that say, Muslim women or North Korean women often are. This 3rd wave is basically the social equivalent of "restless-leg syndrome", as it is mostly asinine and borne of boredom and a lack of a real issue. I tried to convince myself that my favorite film series was, as a socio-political casuality, dying a slow death and being replaced by "50 Shades/Twilight in Space". So, I arrived at the point where I am now. Bitter because these films are in very real danger of being destroyed. I use that word not in a literal sense, as they will be made with large budgets for many years. I mean the heart has been torn out of the Star Wars films. They can still be pretty awesome, but it almost feels like ROGUE one was good by accident. Episode 8 (and 7 to a lesser degree) just felt ... off. From the first moment, something did not feel right to me. Luckily 7 kept it mostly together, clearly because it followed episode 4 so damned closely. However, I fear that the essence of the Space Opera, and the basics of screenwriting will be completely abandoned in episode 9 and the notorious Ruin Johnson Trilogy. I am saddened to think that the main thing that I loved about the Classic Trilogy and EVEN the Prequels will be disregarded or parodied in the future movies. Was it inevitable that the story HAD to stray somewhat at some point? Did we really need another "chosen one" arc? Will the anthology films become the last refuge for mean old bastards like me? Does Howard or Favreau or anyone even care about the power and cultural influence of our modern version of mythology? Should I be a professional satirist? These questions may never be answered
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Post by Iakus on Mar 31, 2018 15:10:15 GMT
In theory, they could have killed Leia off in the attack (skipping the Mary Poppins scene) Have her succumb to her injuries later in the movie, or be the one to sacrifice herself instead of Holdo (the last part would have taken some CGI though) And not really. Han and Luke were broken, pathetic old men who failed at life, and died in rather sad attempts to redeem themselves. Han's death, at least, made a bit of sense. OK. Either way you'd need a bunch of reshoots in the later sequences, but it's doable. It's hard to see this as actually improving VIII, though it would have made IX easier to write. I'm still not convinced that you're using "ignoble" properly there. How can trying to redeem your son or rescue the remnants of the Resistance be "ignoble"? If you want to say that their lives rather than their deaths had been ignoble, that's another matter. (I wouldn't concur in such a judgement, of course, but it passes the laugh test.) I thought the whole exercise was to make Episode IX easier to write? And i'm using "ignoble" as in "of low grade or quality; inferior"
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Post by B. Hieronymus Da on Mar 31, 2018 16:04:20 GMT
I think we should start a petition to have not only Star Wars IX, but all future SW movies written and directed by Uwe Boll.
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Post by mybudgee on Mar 31, 2018 18:13:59 GMT
I think we should start a petition to have not only Star Wars IX, but all future SW movies written and directed by Uwe Boll.
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