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Post by Pounce de León on Sept 28, 2018 9:17:46 GMT
Schindler's List, Roots, and Mysterious Skin. Schindler's List: 97% Audience Score on Rotten Tomatoes, 8.9/10 User Score on IMDb, and 5/5 stars on Amazon. Roots: (This doesn't really count because it was a TV mini-series, not a movie. I'm also assuming this is the original, not the remake) 71% Audience Score on Rotten Tomatoes, 8.4/10 User Score on IMDb, and 4.6/5 stars on Amazon. Mysterious Skin: 89% Audience Score on Rotten Tomatoes, 7.7/10 on IMDb, and 4.2/5 Stars on Amazon. It's definitely closer, but still not objectively good. TO EVERYBODY ELSE: Keep these coming! This is fun! Well, since we`re mostly talking here about TFA and TLJ - we're talking about bad films and not the good ones.
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Post by HK90210 on Sept 28, 2018 13:01:39 GMT
The Shawshank Redemption is objectively good..... That's all.
It's also a movie I dislike. And yet, I can't refute that it is an objectively good movie. I used to think everyone was just wrong. Then I tried examining the film from an objective point of view, and I can't deny that it's a good movie. I'm the same way with Citizen Kane. I don't like the movie, but it is a good one.
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Post by Radec on Sept 28, 2018 16:17:33 GMT
Schindler's List, Roots, and Mysterious Skin. Schindler's List: 97% Audience Score on Rotten Tomatoes, 8.9/10 User Score on IMDb, and 5/5 stars on Amazon. Roots: (This doesn't really count because it was a TV mini-series, not a movie. I'm also assuming this is the original, not the remake) 71% Audience Score on Rotten Tomatoes, 8.4/10 User Score on IMDb, and 4.6/5 stars on Amazon. Mysterious Skin: 89% Audience Score on Rotten Tomatoes, 7.7/10 on IMDb, and 4.2/5 Stars on Amazon. It's definitely closer, but still not objectively good. TO EVERYBODY ELSE: Keep these coming! This is fun! Why are you utilizing internet user reviews to determine objectivity? You do realise that 1) most audience members have no interest nor basis for ranking films other than feels 2) self selection bias 3) in a system literally anyone can access for any reason, review buffing and bombing for reasons outside of the films' actual merits as a piece of art are a thing your beloved TFA and TLJ are actually good examples of the latter. They're middling (albiet financially successful) movies that are getting both bombed with 0/10 (even the most plot critical review would have to admit they are quite well done from a cinematography perspective and undeserving of a rating this low) and unreasonably gifted 10/10 (they're obviously nowhere near perfect) reviews likely because of a non-critical emotional reaction to the Star Wars IP on the part of reviewers. Professional review consensus is far more consistent from an art perspective. Box office gross adjusted for inflation is better from a layman (average movie goer) and commercial perspective.
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Post by mybudgee on Sept 28, 2018 17:02:06 GMT
Professional review consensus is far more consistent from an art perspective. Except when you get movies like Black Panther with 97% (IIRC) positive "professional" reviews on RT... Honestly, I find that my taste is fairly consistently at odds with the taste of the "professionals". So either I'm just an unwashed peasant that doesn't understand art, or they are a bunch of disconnected elitists getting high on their own farts. Come on... we all know why these fucking cowards gave Black Panther a perfect review. (Hint: It's the same reason heterosexual men claim to be 3rd-wave Feminists) Our western society today has become so twisted & full of contrived hyper-sensitivity that not even a HEALTHY, REASONABLE discussion is possible any more. Even mentioning the word "race" or "feminism" will instantly cause millennials/SJWs to brand you a social criminal. It's so incredibly stupid, & yet because it's common it must somehow be accepted ...
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Post by Radec on Sept 28, 2018 17:15:50 GMT
Professional review consensus is far more consistent from an art perspective. Except when you get movies like Black Panther with 97% (IIRC) positive "professional" reviews on RT... Honestly, I find that my taste is fairly consistently at odds with the taste of the "professionals". So either I'm just an unwashed peasant that doesn't understand art, or they are a bunch of disconnected elitists getting high on their own farts. Haven't seen it and have little interest in superhero movies, so can't comment except to say production values and cinematography look good at a glance. Is there anything particularly bad about it as a film from a narrative or characterization perspective? Obviously professional types can be and are biased, but they're generally not going to be rating an average film all over the map for silly reasons. Lets say Black Panther is "objectively" a 7.5/10 (average) film that's getting 9.5/10 because of a preference for social justice/diversity crap among film studies majors, with a few dissenting 5/10 reviews for the opposite reason. That's still much more consistency than TLJ (IMO a 4/10 or so popcorn flick that looks good and is produced well, but has narrative problems and lacks substance) getting anywhere from 10/10 to 0/10 scores because of either mindlessly non-critical or overly butthurt fanboism. The broader point that I'm going for is that if you're looking for "objectivity", if forced to choose you should probably take the sample that at least ostensibly attempts to strive for it rather than the one that obviously doesn't give a fuck and will pass off garbage as gold (e.g. Micheal Bay Transformers, Star Wars or Marvel anything are usually successful films by default) and vice versa (plenty of really good, highly rated indie or foreign/non Hollywood films are commercially failures/ insigificant) But really, the truly great films tend to rise to the top in both critical and casual ratings (SW OT is a good example), and using whichever single metric better fits one's one biases is obviously a flawed approach when one could look at the whole picture to form one's judgements. E.g. if critics thought the flick was 9/10 and audiences 4/10, it's probably splitting the difference at just average, and either using just professional reviews (to make it look good) or just casual ones (for the opposite reason) is intellectually dishonest. For the casual rating, I'd suggest that Box office success is a better indicator than IMDB/RT anyway, since it's free of most selection biases that plague internet user reviews. A film isn't good or bad just because autistic children on 4chan or Tumblr decided to organize a review bomb on whatever thing they do or don't like for whatever retarded reason.
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Post by Radec on Sept 28, 2018 20:14:32 GMT
Is there anything particularly bad about it as a film from a narrative or characterization perspective? That's probably debatable, but it certainly doesn't deserve a 97% positive score. It's a super-hero movie, and to my understanding not even a particularly good one. But yeah, I largely agree with the rest in theory, though I find that "professional" reviewers tend to have a different taste from the great unwashed. Doesn't matter if it's video games, movies, or whatever. For this reason I tend to find them useless for the most part. Then there's the political bias, which is an issue in itself... Yeah, but political bias is something that general audiences have, as well. Perhaps it balances better due to some other variable i.e. a correlation between the demographics that choose areas like film studies and a preference certain types of political ideologies, but at the same time you can get more peaks and valleys with general audiences (e.g. the threatened pre release boycott of TFA because it had stronk wamen protaganist and black guy, don't think many critics did things like this), which makes their biases potentially more difficult to correct for depending on how much irrational praise or vitriol a certain film is getting in the public eye. Not saying they can't get high on their own farts (I think TFA and especially TLJ are generally rated far too highly by a majority of critics, and it may be for this reason) just that the fact that they may doesn't necessarily make them a less objective source than something extremely problematic like internet user reviews. also, there's no accounting for taste. One of my favourite movie series (novels too, but they're very different) is Starship Troopers (well, 1 and 3, there's no defending 2), even though the characters were flat, the plots were predictable and the supposed point of the movies (satire) was so on the nose that it ends up being not very clever. Regardless, I enjoy the campiness and stylistic references to WW2 propaganda reels, and due to my own interest in history it carries what are otherwise average to below average films.
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Post by river82 on Sept 28, 2018 21:32:33 GMT
Kathleen Kennedy has reportedly had her contract extended till at least 2021.
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Post by mybudgee on Sept 28, 2018 22:11:24 GMT
Kathleen Kennedy has reportedly had her contract extended till at least 2021. Lucasfilm's target demographic:
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Post by Andrew Waples on Sept 28, 2018 23:01:54 GMT
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Post by Iakus on Sept 28, 2018 23:20:14 GMT
Kathleen Kennedy has reportedly had her contract extended till at least 2021. Well, it's not like I was going to waste any more of my money on Disney Wars anyway...
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Post by Iakus on Sept 29, 2018 1:19:54 GMT
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Post by griffith82 on Sept 29, 2018 3:16:45 GMT
It's people like you guys that make me hate being a Star Wars fan. Well, since I'm officially (technically the second time, but whatever) denouncing myself as a Star Wars fan I'm finally allowed to say things like this: - A New Hope is overrated - Empire is not perfect - Return is the worst of the original trilogy - Phantom Menace is hugely underrated - Attack of the Clones is the worst of them all - Revenge of the Sith is worse than Phantom Menace - Force Awakens is my personal favorite (at number 2 of my rankings) - Rogue One is great but not something I will remember fondly for the rest of my life - The Last Jedi gets too much hate and is not as bad as people say to be - Solo is what Rogue One should have been like If you got a problem with any of my personal thoughts here, I don't care! This is my Star Wars, and I will enjoy it however I want! Im gönna say this again.
Whether yöu like sömething is subjective.
Whether ör nöt it is goöd is öbjective.
Nö öne cares what yöu actually like. It is when yöu say that the mövies are just as goöd as the öthers is the pröblem we have. If yöu said that yöu persönally enjöyed them just as much as the öther films that is fine. But saying they are just as goöd is nöt fine.
No film is perfect not even Empire. There are flaws in every movie. In fact there are no technical goofs, only technical plot error was Leila but that can be explained just not to your liking. I'll never convince you and that's fine but this movie can be subjectively bad to some but not objectively. An objectively bad film is Superman IV. Its a very bad film with plot holes, made up super powers that he never had, bad vfx, wrong backdrops, visual hiccups, bad sets, bad acting, horrible editing etc. I happen to like this film due to Christopher Reeve and the political plot. I love the hope of nuclear disarmament. But it is a terrible film. I still enjoy it. Not in the same way I enjoy TLJ.
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Post by fiannawolf on Sept 29, 2018 3:52:41 GMT
At least I have these old DarkHorse favorites on my kindle: They always did a bang up job on star wars.
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Post by fiannawolf on Sept 29, 2018 4:17:46 GMT
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Post by mybudgee on Sept 29, 2018 5:56:35 GMT
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Post by Pounce de León on Sept 29, 2018 11:56:54 GMT
When video game cutscenes are better than whole movies...
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Post by Hier0phant on Sept 29, 2018 16:01:35 GMT
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Post by Hier0phant on Sept 29, 2018 16:14:27 GMT
Yeah, but political bias is something that general audiences have, as well. Perhaps it balances better due to some other variable i.e. a correlation between the demographics that choose areas like film studies and a preference certain types of political ideologies, but at the same time you can get more peaks and valleys with general audiences (e.g. the threatened pre release boycott of TFA because it had stronk wamen protaganist and black guy, don't think many critics did things like this), which makes their biases potentially more difficult to correct for depending on how much irrational praise or vitriol a certain film is getting in the public eye. I think the bolded is a fairly safe assumption. As for the audience, what I find is that overall it tends to be reasonable at the end of the day. Meaning, are there legit racists who can't stand to see a black guy in SW? Yeah. (I mean, Samuel Jackson was probably one of the most impressive looking Jedi in the prequels, so a black guy in SW is hardly something new) But they are also a small minority, the creatures from Stromfront et al. You'd notice that the real backlash didn't start until after the disaster of TLJ, and with TLJ I at least feel that the vast majority of it was justified. It's a flaming pile of garbage as far as I'm concerned. My point is that that the audience is a lot more varied in its political biases than the "professional" critics. The Audience rarely tends to close ranks and form a shield wall, while the "professionals" do it fairly frequently these days. (I remember the articles about how anyone who gave a negative review to Black Panther is a racist...) In short, for a significant backlash you require a significant part of the audience behind it, something that you aren't going to get if there isn't a good reason. So in my view, comparing the the political bias of the "professionals" and the public at large is simply wrong, because the audience has (ironically) a diversity of opinions that the "professionals" tend to lack. As for Starship Troopers, those are great movies and anyone who says otherwise is wrong. Would You Like To Know More?... Never forget.
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Post by Radec on Sept 29, 2018 16:36:53 GMT
Yeah, but political bias is something that general audiences have, as well. Perhaps it balances better due to some other variable i.e. a correlation between the demographics that choose areas like film studies and a preference certain types of political ideologies, but at the same time you can get more peaks and valleys with general audiences (e.g. the threatened pre release boycott of TFA because it had stronk wamen protaganist and black guy, don't think many critics did things like this), which makes their biases potentially more difficult to correct for depending on how much irrational praise or vitriol a certain film is getting in the public eye. I think the bolded is a fairly safe assumption. You'd notice that the real backlash didn't start until after the disaster of TLJ, and with TLJ I at least feel that the vast majority of it was justified. It's a flaming pile of garbage as far as I'm concerned. In short, for a significant backlash you require a significant part of the audience behind it, something that you aren't going to get if there isn't a good reason. So in my view, comparing the the political bias of the "professionals" and the public at large is simply wrong, because the audience has (ironically) a diversity of opinions that the "professionals" tend to lack. As for Starship Troopers, those are great movies and anyone who says otherwise is wrong. Would You Like To Know More?... Not much to disagree with here. As I elucidated previously, I trust critic consensus more than audience consensus, but hardly consider it infalliable, and find that my own opinions generally fall somewhere in the middle of the two. Critics have the problem of often being too self righteous to understand why general audiences may have disliked something they rated highly. Meanwhile general audiences often have the problem of not even attempting to be critical from the perspective of art at all. I mean is there any other explanation for the massive success of shallow garbage like Titanic, Avatar, 50 Shades, Twilight or the Transformers films? oldie but good also yes Starship Troopers is actually the best SciFi film franchise of all time, and it too deserves to be ruined with horrible, hollywood machine produced cash grab sequel trilogies. As of now though all we can do is spread the good word
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Post by Hier0phant on Sept 29, 2018 17:22:35 GMT
Mind you a photograph of a man's anus is considered art, but with franchise films i only gauge them by how consistent each succeeding film is to the first and preceding film. Consistencies like lore, plot, and characterization.
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Post by mybudgee on Sept 29, 2018 17:37:04 GMT
Very relevant:
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Post by Arijon van Goyen on Sept 29, 2018 18:54:09 GMT
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Post by mybudgee on Sept 29, 2018 19:07:48 GMT
Mind you a photograph of a man's anus is considered art*farting noises*
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Post by Arijon van Goyen on Sept 29, 2018 19:22:05 GMT
Mind you a photograph of a man's anus is considered art*farting noises* And here a feminist manifesto for the 21st century
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Post by mybudgee on Sept 29, 2018 21:15:39 GMT
Can we discuss the fact that K. Kennedy will remain as Empress of Lucasfilm for the foreseeable future? First off, I wanna say that I'm trying VERY hard to be optimistic about it. In the light of the announcement from a week or so ago that Iger has commanded that production slow the hell down on ALL Star Wars flicks (other than Episode 9: Return of Idiocy), I feel a certain amount of relief. Not a huge feeling of relief, not enough to temper my feeling of betrayal & like I was bamboozled out of my hard-earned $ for seeing ep. 8... but I felt some confidence return. Does this news about the head of Lucasfilm staying on ruin my feeling of solace? No, because I hope that Iger is what he seems to be; an intelligent adult who knows that Lucasfilm is in somewhat of a tail-spin. I hope he can see that the current "Do whatever you want, as long as there's moronic SJW tropes shoe-horned into the 'plot' LoL" strategy is perhaps not the precedent anyone working with him wants. Not to mention the millions of old-school fans who feel as left out in the cold as I do. I am still a fan. I am not going to boycott Lucasfilm... yet
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