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Post by Deleted on Oct 22, 2018 22:18:26 GMT
Don't know if this was posted before, funny regardless
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Oct 22, 2018 22:49:58 GMT
Maybe this is my own personal opinion, but I'm personally not a fan of those tropes, so I'm probably biased and can't get behind this development. I don't mind those tropes if done well, but Han/Leia is a case where it is not done well.
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Post by N7Pathfinder on Oct 23, 2018 2:15:31 GMT
Maybe this is my own personal opinion, but I'm personally not a fan of those tropes, so I'm probably biased and can't get behind this development. I don't mind those tropes if done well, but Han/Leia is a case where it is not done well. Either way, that trope is so overused. You guys know romances can also bloom from people who legitimately like each other right?
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Post by Qui-Gon GlenN7 on Oct 23, 2018 4:03:09 GMT
For me, that kinda goes for most of the characters. Just like the characters in A New Hope - I wanted to like them (and was given reason to). I gave these movies and characters the benefit of the doubt and it didn't work out, sadly. I think as Star Wars fans, we need to accept the sad truth that while the characters may be likable, they are NOT the best-written characters in cinema. Luke, Han, and Leia may have been neat characters, and the fact that people look up to them is inspiring. But at the same time, we shouldn't act like they have flawless character-arcs. Even in the original trilogy, they were moments where the "character development" felt forced, like Luke's immediate 180-turn from "I don't want to leave," to "I'm going with you," after the death of his aunt and uncle. Or how Leia and Han spent their entire screen-time in a New Hope and half of Empire bickering with each other before suddenly deciding they're in love. There's plenty to love in Star Wars, including the characters, but to treat their clunky character arcs as perfect and a prime example of how they SHOULD be, is honestly just wrong. At least, in my personal opinion. There is missing nuance here, Padawan. It is like an Echo in the Force, and gets louder as you are nearer to it. Long, long ago, in a galaxy that is actually this one, Star Wars was released. It was new, and while not wholly original or perfectly written, it was unique and special, capturing a moment perfectly. Did I mention it was brand new.... When guys like me and Face and others were young and it captured us. It was the original. You can criticize all you want, it falls on our deaf ears as we too understand it's flaws, but still remember seeing it the first time through our inner child's eye. Also, your criticism isn't 100% accurate, as others have already mentioned. The expectation that I had from the new Star Wars was that tradition would be respected. Everything else, after that failed, you can have. I want nothing to do with it. Please do not complain that this hurts Star Wars, or is divisive. It doesn't, and it's not. It is not my fault or other fans fault that they do not like the NuWars, and blaming me for not liking something I just don't like is lol. As Obi Wan said to Anakin, you could say to Disney - they have done that to themselves. Your grasp of the entirety of this situation is lacking I'm afraid.
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Post by N7Pathfinder on Oct 23, 2018 16:31:00 GMT
I think as Star Wars fans, we need to accept the sad truth that while the characters may be likable, they are NOT the best-written characters in cinema. Luke, Han, and Leia may have been neat characters, and the fact that people look up to them is inspiring. But at the same time, we shouldn't act like they have flawless character-arcs. Even in the original trilogy, they were moments where the "character development" felt forced, like Luke's immediate 180-turn from "I don't want to leave," to "I'm going with you," after the death of his aunt and uncle. Or how Leia and Han spent their entire screen-time in a New Hope and half of Empire bickering with each other before suddenly deciding they're in love. There's plenty to love in Star Wars, including the characters, but to treat their clunky character arcs as perfect and a prime example of how they SHOULD be, is honestly just wrong. At least, in my personal opinion. There is missing nuance here, Padawan. It is like an Echo in the Force, and gets louder as you are nearer to it. Long, long ago, in a galaxy that is actually this one, Star Wars was released. It was new, and while not wholly original or perfectly written, it was unique and special, capturing a moment perfectly. Did I mention it was brand new.... When guys like me and Face and others were young and it captured us. It was the original. You can criticize all you want, it falls on our deaf ears as we too understand it's flaws, but still remember seeing it the first time through our inner child's eye. Also, your criticism isn't 100% accurate, as others have already mentioned. The expectation that I had from the new Star Wars was that tradition would be respected. Everything else, after that failed, you can have. I want nothing to do with it. Please do not complain that this hurts Star Wars, or is divisive. It doesn't, and it's not. It is not my fault or other fans fault that they do not like the NuWars, and blaming me for not liking something I just don't like is lol. As Obi Wan said to Anakin, you could say to Disney - they have done that to themselves. Your grasp of the entirety of this situation is lacking I'm afraid. My grasp of the situation might be lacking because I don't claim to be the most hardcore Star Wars fan. I'm the kind of guy who enjoys Star Wars as it is, but is more excited at the possibilities of new stories and new worlds because Star Wars is a BIG galaxy with a long history. That's the primary reason I'm more forgiving to NuWars, because while the general execution may not be the best, the ideas they were trying to go for are kind of neat and would love to see them get a better script. I've honestly never liked the idea of tradition. It's too narrowminded a way to look at life, society, and especially franchises you're a fan of. Don't get me wrong, there are stuff I expect to see in a Star Wars movie like the music, iconic ships, blasters and elements of adventure. However, I also believe that in order for Star Wars to last longer, it needs to involve with modern methods of filmmaking and newer ideas that haven't been explored in a movie yet. I do not blame you for not liking NuWars, I'm just trying to explain how I view Star Wars currently. You, a fan that had grown with the original movies, may not like NuWars, but you can't deny that at least Disney is introducing a new generation to Star Wars, and some of these kids like the characters you don't. It's kind of like when the Prequels came out. I never heard of Star Wars until I saw the Phantom Menace, and I loved it as a kid. If the prequels didn't exist, I probably wouldn't have discovered Star Wars and become a fan. So you can despise NuWars if you want to, but at least be glad more kids are discovering Star Wars from a fresh perspective now.
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Post by Qui-Gon GlenN7 on Oct 23, 2018 17:19:55 GMT
Yes, they are making new things. I will deny that the forced socio-political commentary leaking out of every plot hole of these movies is good for the NuFans; that shit isn't good for any of us.
You despise tradition? Well, look forward to a life of misery my friend - life is all about tradition in one way or the other. Breaking bad tradition to make a "better" one, and revering the "good" traditions - this is what humans do, since they recorded history.
You're going to change the world.... But you can't change me. No you can't. Change. Me.
Edit: I saw TPM six times in the theater son. I got 99 movies...
New fans that celebrate the new tradition of NuWars are not anything I will celebrate. In them I see the death of the Force.
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Post by smilesja on Oct 23, 2018 18:24:04 GMT
New fans that celebrate the new tradition of NuWars are not anything I will celebrate. In them I see the death of the Force. Why?
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Post by Qui-Gon GlenN7 on Oct 23, 2018 18:25:49 GMT
New fans that celebrate the new tradition of NuWars are not anything I will celebrate. In them I see the death of the Force. Why? They threw away the lightsaber. They burned the books. They didn't need training. Shall I go on?
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Post by N7Pathfinder on Oct 23, 2018 19:21:50 GMT
Yes, they are making new things. I will deny that the forced socio-political commentary leaking out of every plot hole of these movies is good for the NuFans; that shit isn't good for any of us. You despise tradition? Well, look forward to a life of misery my friend - life is all about tradition in one way or the other. Breaking bad tradition to make a "better" one, and revering the "good" traditions - this is what humans do, since they recorded history. You're going to change the world.... But you can't change me. No you can't. Change. Me. Edit: I saw TPM six times in the theater son. I got 99 movies... New fans that celebrate the new tradition of NuWars are not anything I will celebrate. In them I see the death of the Force. Okay, it was funny the first few posts, but I think you're getting a LITTLE too carried away.
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Post by Qui-Gon GlenN7 on Oct 23, 2018 20:16:01 GMT
Yes, they are making new things. I will deny that the forced socio-political commentary leaking out of every plot hole of these movies is good for the NuFans; that shit isn't good for any of us. You despise tradition? Well, look forward to a life of misery my friend - life is all about tradition in one way or the other. Breaking bad tradition to make a "better" one, and revering the "good" traditions - this is what humans do, since they recorded history. You're going to change the world.... But you can't change me. No you can't. Change. Me. Edit: I saw TPM six times in the theater son. I got 99 movies... New fans that celebrate the new tradition of NuWars are not anything I will celebrate. In them I see the death of the Force. Okay, it was funny the first few posts, but I think you're getting a LITTLE too carried away. What's funny is that you don't read my posts seriously. Despite throwing in allusions to Star Wars and popular culture, I am dead serious about all of it. I know your sarcasm filter is broken, but my recent posts have all been pretty much on-the-money criticism of millenial viewership and the current state of affairs.
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Post by Andrew Waples on Oct 23, 2018 20:28:05 GMT
I like lightsaber fights.
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Post by Qui-Gon GlenN7 on Oct 23, 2018 21:28:39 GMT
I like lightsaber fights.
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Post by Fen'Harel Faceman on Oct 23, 2018 21:43:01 GMT
I like lightsaber fights. Also partial to the "Ryan vs Dorkman" fights...
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Post by Deleted on Oct 23, 2018 21:56:06 GMT
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Post by smilesja on Oct 23, 2018 22:56:37 GMT
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Post by CrutchCricket on Oct 24, 2018 12:45:31 GMT
I like lightsaber fights. Too lazy to look up the relevant Plinkett commentary on that, but rest assured it exists. Pretend I posted it (hint: it debunks this view) Also, funny that even with lightsaber fights, the best ones out there aren't seen in the films (at least from a choreography/spectacle viewpoint)
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Post by Fen'Harel Faceman on Oct 24, 2018 13:07:47 GMT
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Post by Heimdall on Oct 24, 2018 14:48:55 GMT
Old video, but wanted to post some Auralnauts
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Post by Evil on Oct 24, 2018 15:14:37 GMT
I like lightsaber fights. Too lazy to look up the relevant Plinkett commentary on that, but rest assured it exists. Pretend I posted it (hint: it debunks this view) Also, funny that even with lightsaber fights, the best ones out there aren't seen in the films (at least from a choreography/spectacle viewpoint) Would this be the commentary in question?
Just watched it for the first time myself, if so. I'll agree with Plinkett that a fight should be a tool to tell a story like in the OT, as opposed to the story being a tool to have a fight like in the PT, and that the PT's fights felt lacking in terms of character. That doesn't make the PT fights completely unenjoyable of course, but it does reduce them to the roles of dumb popcorn fodder and meme fuel when they could have been something more memorable.
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Post by Iakus on Oct 24, 2018 15:22:32 GMT
I like lightsaber fights.
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Post by CrutchCricket on Oct 24, 2018 16:11:30 GMT
Too lazy to look up the relevant Plinkett commentary on that, but rest assured it exists. Pretend I posted it (hint: it debunks this view) Also, funny that even with lightsaber fights, the best ones out there aren't seen in the films (at least from a choreography/spectacle viewpoint) Would this be the commentary in question?
Just watched it for the first time myself, if so. I'll agree with Plinkett that a fight should be a tool to tell a story like in the OT, as opposed to the story being a tool to have a fight like in the PT, and that the PT's fights felt lacking in terms of character. That doesn't make the PT fights completely unenjoyable of course, but it does reduce them to the roles of dumb popcorn fodder and meme fuel when they could have been something more memorable. Indeed. While I agree with Plinkett on just about everything, I do think he was a little harsh on dismissing the improved choreography entirely as boring. Yes, the characters should have an interpersonal reason for fighting, but that doesn't mean the spectacle can't be there, or that the speed and mastery of the moves isn't visually stimulating and downright cool. The take-away should be to not put the spectacle above the characters. But spectacle can have its own appeal, which is why fanfilms like RvD are as popular as they are, though even there I would argue we get character from both combatants with zero dialogue or context. They tell a story through their movements and fighting style. Another take I've found interesting is:
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Post by Radec on Oct 24, 2018 16:46:52 GMT
He arguably did everything right. I saw arguments claiming that the dynamic between him and admiral Tumblr was orchestrated in order to emasculate the classic portrayal of a male ace pilot who always saves the day etc. Which is something that I find fairly plausible considering the general political leaning of the people in charge and Rian's obsession with "subverting expectations". It seems very plausible, but its written in such a poor manner that it has the opposite effect. Purple hair (and Leia, given she seemingly goes along) looks dumb because she manages to get herself and about 96% of her forces killed (a dozen or so survived from 400). Even if we blame Poe for her (dumb) secret squirrel plan failing, there seems to have been no legitimate reason not to inform him of the details of the plan given he was a presumably trusted (e.g. not a First Order spy)and one of the highest ranking officers within what was left the resistance. Instead, she looks like a weak leader who is cracking under pressure. This directly leads to Poe feeling it necessecary to orchestrate the mutiny in order to salvage what's left of the Resistance They very nearly end up making the implication that wamen are bad leaders (saved only by the fact that the male leaders of the First Order are equally inept.) They do end up making the point (via Poe's character arc) that when you're unsure, blindly following authority is the right thing to do. Doesn't seem very "rebel" but W/e (subverted expectations and all)
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Post by Camel on Oct 24, 2018 17:55:30 GMT
It seems very plausible, but its written in such a poor manner that it has the opposite effect. Purple hair (and Leia, given she seemingly goes along) looks dumb because she manages to get herself and about 96% of her forces killed (a dozen or so survived from 400). Even if we blame Poe for her (dumb) secret squirrel plan failing, there seems to have been no legitimate reason not to inform him of the details of the plan given he was a presumably trusted (e.g. not a First Order spy)and one of the highest ranking officers within what was left the resistance. Instead, she looks like a weak leader who is cracking under pressure. This directly leads to Poe feeling it necessecary to orchestrate the mutiny in order to salvage what's left of the Resistance They very nearly end up making the implication that wamen are bad leaders (saved only by the fact that the male leaders of the First Order are equally inept.) They do end up making the point (via Poe's character arc) that when you're unsure, blindly following authority is the right thing to do. Doesn't seem very "rebel" but W/e (subverted expectations and all)
According to these two bloggers the TLJ is about:
"Toxic Masculinity Is the True Villain of Star Wars: The Last Jedi"
Time to talk about the competent women and the emotionally-challenged men of Star Wars.
"Star Wars: The Last Jedi Offers the Harsh Condemnation of Mansplaining We Need in 2017" This message—women being largely right, and men being mostly wrong—extends to most but not all aspects of The Last Jedi.
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Post by Qui-Gon GlenN7 on Oct 24, 2018 21:26:20 GMT
It seems very plausible, but its written in such a poor manner that it has the opposite effect. Purple hair (and Leia, given she seemingly goes along) looks dumb because she manages to get herself and about 96% of her forces killed (a dozen or so survived from 400). Even if we blame Poe for her (dumb) secret squirrel plan failing, there seems to have been no legitimate reason not to inform him of the details of the plan given he was a presumably trusted (e.g. not a First Order spy)and one of the highest ranking officers within what was left the resistance. Instead, she looks like a weak leader who is cracking under pressure. This directly leads to Poe feeling it necessecary to orchestrate the mutiny in order to salvage what's left of the Resistance They very nearly end up making the implication that wamen are bad leaders (saved only by the fact that the male leaders of the First Order are equally inept.) They do end up making the point (via Poe's character arc) that when you're unsure, blindly following authority is the right thing to do. Doesn't seem very "rebel" but W/e (subverted expectations and all)
According to these two bloggers the TLJ is about:
"Toxic Masculinity Is the True Villain of Star Wars: The Last Jedi"
Time to talk about the competent women and the emotionally-challenged men of Star Wars.
"Star Wars: The Last Jedi Offers the Harsh Condemnation of Mansplaining We Need in 2017" This message—women being largely right, and men being mostly wrong—extends to most but not all aspects of The Last Jedi.Lol. Lemme mansplain sumthin for dem gurlz.... No, no one wants to ever have sex with you.
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