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Post by colfoley on Dec 18, 2019 18:32:40 GMT
Yep, that's what I feared. Cramming way too much into far too short a time frame. I hate when they do that, really kills the experience. it's a movie. It's probably true of like 99% of action movies because they only have (at most) 2 and a half hours. Thats not what either lesson was. That's exactly what the lessons were. Yoda was showing Luke what a powerful ally the Force can be, how it's everywhere, guiding you, binding the galaxy together, and how a Jedi can perform truly amazing feats with it at your side. Luke's "lesson" otoh: And I will never, ever forgive Rian Johnson or Disney for this. may be wasting my breath here but you do realize that by the end of the movie Luke changed his mind right?
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Post by Hier0phant on Dec 18, 2019 18:41:02 GMT
Leia's adoptive parents along with their entire home planet are destroyed in front of her in order to mentally break her, she discovers that she nearly Targaryen'd her twin brother and also finds out that one of the men who were responsible for her people's genocide is also her biological father, she is publicly ridiculed and shunned by her once allies after her parentage is revealed, the empire that is responsible for her people's destruction make a comeback because her former allies went full retard, her son after waking up to the sight of her twin brother standing over him with an erect lightsaber turns to the darkside, and later murders her estranged husband in cold blood. Leia suffered more than Luke yet she still chooses to fight. Jake had no excuses.
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Post by KaiserShep on Dec 18, 2019 18:42:54 GMT
The Canto Bight scene is straight cinematic AIDS to me, especially since it totally derails the entire conflict and ultimately served no purpose, with the characters accomplishing LESS on their return. I make no secret of my loathing of Rose and her "romantic" subplot with Finn. I would have been perfectly content with Finn flying down the center of that battering ram death ray, or perhaps the both of them. Indeed. This was the mark of a true hack director/writer. Finn could have been a Martyr for the Resistance, and could have died a hero. Instead we got a disgusting & cringe-inducing scene where Rose professes her "love" for him. I would have been much more forgiving of the 3rd act without this idiotic narrative decision, considering the "Force-projection" by Jake Skywalker was actually kinda cool IMHO (I am still very skeptical about the reviews of episode 9 BTW) I was resigned to just deal with Rose's character at that point, but her directly allowing the First Order to successfully bunker-bust the last bastion of the Resistance was just too much. Like, bitch, they're about to kill us all, and you're about to let the mini Death Star just break down the door? Did she foresee Luke's intervention? Is she actually a First Order spy sent to quietly sabotage and waste their time to hobble them?
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Post by colfoley on Dec 18, 2019 18:56:36 GMT
I just realized those complaining about Luke being flawed while at the same time complaining Rey is (supposedly) flawless is...a really interesting contradiction.
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Post by Hier0phant on Dec 18, 2019 19:10:22 GMT
I just realized those complaining about Luke being flawed while at the same time complaining Rey is (supposedly) flawless is...a really interesting contradiction. False equivalence, Luke was already flawed. The big argument against his characterization in TLJ is that it's inconsistent with his portrayal in Lucas's films. Rey is a mary sue and Rise of Skywalker's conclusion confirms it.
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Post by KaiserShep on Dec 18, 2019 19:13:29 GMT
I just realized those complaining about Luke being flawed while at the same time complaining Rey is (supposedly) flawless is...a really interesting contradiction. That's kind of an oversimplification. Luke was never a flawless character through the trilogy. His inherent weakness against Darth Vader was a flaw, as was his inability to really use the Force to his fullest potential before meeting Yoda. My initial like of the character began to corrode due to how adept she was at everything, being able to solve every problem. Her ability to do some engineering would make sense since she maintained her own speeder and scrounged through imperial wreckage, but being as skilled a pilot in a ship she never flew before kind of stretches it. A character having a great deal of agency can be great, but what isn't great is when everyone else, most of which are more hardened and experienced, getting weaker in her presence, kind of isn't. I mean, does it bother anyone else that Chewbacca, a character that is over 2 lifetimes old, didn't manage to solve a problem she just happened to come up with in her first couple hours being on the Millennium Falcon, after all this time? Quickly resisting the Force probing of someone who was trained under both Luke and Snoke with no prior knowledge or experience, then beating said trained person in single combat with a weapon she never used before. This is on top of the inconsistency of his being able to just freeze people in place (and blaster bolts) at will only to get a hefty nerf when the plot needs it just strains how much suspension of disbelief I can accept. Some of this I chalk up to JJ Abrams deplorable grasp of pacing. His 2009 Star Trek film is as guilty as this. It wants to get those set pieces rolling, regardless of any logical inconsistencies required to get there. It's frenetic and flashy and best not to think about. Then there's Rian Johnson, whose writing seems to exude this childlike perspective that really does a huge disservice to the entire film. Take that Canto Bight business with the horse-dog things. That whole deviation into the evils of animal cruelty, only to be all happy that they're free (while the child slaves are not!) just seems like a surface level grasp at substance, and it makes me want to eat chalk.
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Post by Iakus on Dec 18, 2019 19:15:09 GMT
I just realized those complaining about Luke being flawed while at the same time complaining Rey is (supposedly) flawless is...a really interesting contradiction. False equivalence, Luke was already flawed. The big argument against his characterization in TLJ is that it's inconsistent with his portrayal in Lucas's films. Rey is a mary sue and Rise of Skywalker's conclusion confirms it. Yes. If anything, Luke's flaw is that he's overly idealistic.
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Post by colfoley on Dec 18, 2019 19:18:44 GMT
Luke may've been flawed at one point but the reaction from every TLJ critic is that "what he wouldn't do that, not Luke, its impossible!" He is obviously a flawed character but after Jedi certain people don't want him to be.
As for Rey. The ending of TLJ did no such thing. She failed, badly, and had to be bailed out by two people who...happen to be men. She is a deeply flawed character and it will be curious if she gets over those flaws or if they consume her.
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Post by Iakus on Dec 18, 2019 19:24:10 GMT
Yep, that's what I feared. Cramming way too much into far too short a time frame. I hate when they do that, really kills the experience. it's a movie. It's probably true of like 99% of action movies because they only have (at most) 2 and a half hours. That's exactly what the lessons were. Yoda was showing Luke what a powerful ally the Force can be, how it's everywhere, guiding you, binding the galaxy together, and how a Jedi can perform truly amazing feats with it at your side. Luke's "lesson" otoh: And I will never, ever forgive Rian Johnson or Disney for this. may be wasting my breath here but you do realize that by the end of the movie Luke changed his mind right? His mind should never have had to be changed. This guy redeemed DARTH F*CKING VADER! even after he Murdered dozens of children helped Tarkin blow up a planet, killing millions! Tortured Leia Tortured Han Beat Luke like a pinata and CUT OF HIS F*CKING HAND! Tried to turn Luke to the Dark Side TWICE! Threatened to turn Leia to the Dark Side. Obi-Won and Yoda both said it couldn't be done. They had decades/centuries more experience than Luke, and even watched Anakin grow up! They said trying would only ensure the Emperor's victory. But he did it anyway, and succeeded! He never should have been the one considering murdering Ben FOR HAVING A BAD DREAM!
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Post by Iakus on Dec 18, 2019 19:26:48 GMT
Luke may've been flawed at one point but the reaction from every TLJ critic is that "what he wouldn't do that, not Luke, its impossible!" He is obviously a flawed character but after Jedi certain people don't want him to be. As for Rey. The ending of TLJ did no such thing. She failed, badly, and had to be bailed out by two people who...happen to be men. She is a deeply flawed character and it will be curious if she gets over those flaws or if they consume her. No, Luke should have had DIFFERENT flaws. Flaws more consistent with his character in the original trilogy. And yeah, Rey is SO flawed she needed help taking on a dozen Imperial Guard armed with a lightsaber she's only used in combat once before. Oh, look, she got a cut on her arm
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Post by KaiserShep on Dec 18, 2019 19:28:00 GMT
it's a movie. It's probably true of like 99% of action movies because they only have (at most) 2 and a half hours. may be wasting my breath here but you do realize that by the end of the movie Luke changed his mind right? His mind should never have had to be changed. This guy redeemed DARTH F*CKING VADER! even after he Murdered dozens of children helped Tarkin blow up a planet, killing millions! Tortured Leia Tortured Han Beat Luke like a pinata and CUT OF HIS F*CKING HAND! Tried to turn Luke to the Dark Side TWICE! Threatened to turn Leia to the Dark Side. Obi-Won and Yoda both said it couldn't be done. They had decades/centuries more experience than Luke, and even watched Anakin grow up! They said trying would only ensure the Emperor's victory. But he did it anyway, and succeeded! He never should have been the one considering murdering Ben FOR HAVING A BAD DREAM! I think what makes the Vader redemption scene better is that Luke himself doesn't just persuade the hell out of Vader until he gives in, since it wasn't until the Emperor decided he's had enough of this and put the lightning tickle fingers to Luke to end it. Like a flash of conscience finally came to him as Luke was about to die. That's what makes it work so well, and even better still since it was previously established that Vader's intention all along was to have Luke by his side, so at least there it's a follow-up of a pre-established idea.
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Post by Hier0phant on Dec 18, 2019 19:28:29 GMT
False equivalence, Luke was already flawed. The big argument against his characterization in TLJ is that it's inconsistent with his portrayal in Lucas's films. Rey is a mary sue and Rise of Skywalker's conclusion confirms it. Yes. If anything, Luke's flaw is that he's overly idealistic. He's rash too. His biggest flaws in the OT was his naivatee, and rashness.
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Post by KaiserShep on Dec 18, 2019 19:39:11 GMT
Luke may've been flawed at one point but the reaction from every TLJ critic is that "what he wouldn't do that, not Luke, its impossible!" He is obviously a flawed character but after Jedi certain people don't want him to be. As for Rey. The ending of TLJ did no such thing. She failed, badly, and had to be bailed out by two people who...happen to be men. She is a deeply flawed character and it will be curious if she gets over those flaws or if they consume her. The idea of Luke becoming a bit of a cranky hermit does appeal to me somewhat, though I feel it treads over ground already made by old Obi-Wan and Yoda, but the level of moroseness they wrote into the character just seemed like they were trying too hard to really bring this home. We're supposed to see this character's pain unfold in its entirety it seems, but either through oversight or active negligence on the part of the editing team, totally cut away from whatever reaction he had to learning that his former student killed one of his oldest friends. Frankly, at this point I felt like the movie was actively trolling me. Like, stop cockteasing me, movie!
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Post by alanc9 on Dec 18, 2019 19:47:27 GMT
Tonally, the movie is all over the place. Was it supposed to be funny? Was it supposed to feel kind of sad that this is how far Luke has fallen since we last saw him in Jedi? I'd bet money that the tonal inconsistency is part of what made TLJ such critic bait in the first place.
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Post by KaiserShep on Dec 18, 2019 19:51:06 GMT
Tonally, the movie is all over the place. Was it supposed to be funny? Was it supposed to feel kind of sad that this is how far Luke has fallen since we last saw him in Jedi? I'd bet money that the tonal inconsistency is part of what made TLJ such critic bait in the first place. That seems painfully clear as of the first sequence. How do we start off the conflict between Empire 2.0 and the scrappy freedom fighters? With a got-danged crank call.
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Post by Hier0phant on Dec 18, 2019 20:53:57 GMT
Luke may've been flawed at one point but the reaction from every TLJ critic is that "what he wouldn't do that, not Luke, its impossible!" He is obviously a flawed character but after Jedi certain people don't want him to be. As for Rey. The ending of TLJ did no such thing. She failed, badly, and had to be bailed out by two people who...happen to be men. She is a deeply flawed character and it will be curious if she gets over those flaws or if they consume her. Luke being flawed isn't the issue and is just a bastardization of our criticisms of Rian's characterization of the character. His abandonment of his family and friends to the whims of a force empowered homicidal loon they had no power to stop so that he can sulk is character assassination due to his actions being contradictory when compared to his past behavior in regards to his concern for his friends and family. About Rey. Rey knows, and pilots the Falcon better than Han who piloted the ship for decades Rey is completely trusted by him and Chewie while Luke nearly got backhanded for back seat driving. Rey a complete stranger is instantly entrusted with Anakin's lightsaber by Maz for no discernible reason at all. She resists Kylo's force probe and turns it back on him. Uses the jedi mind trick with no prior training or knowledge of the ability to aid in her escape from Starkiller Base, and is an adept lightsaber duelist despite her only using a makeshift bostaff for protection on Jakku. Leia ignores Chewie a decades old friend to seek console from Rey over Han's death. Rey knows how to swim despite her spending her entire life on a desert planet, and her only revealed flaw that she was harboring was her unwillingness to accept her abandonment. Luke only had to teach her how to properly draw on the lightside of the force, a given since she is technically a neophyte force user. Rey gave into her anger, assaulted, and defeated a Legendary warrior of countless battles who told her to mind her own business but the narrative didn't treat her rage fuelled assault as negative, like Luke's in RoTJ, but rather a "Yaas Queen tell em" moment that forcibly reconnected Luke back to the force. Rey defeating Luke is sketchy because her only prior live combat experience before Kylo was fighting sand hobos for junk parts, and Yoda of all people being smitten by her is just... Rey's steadfast resistance to Snoke's force torture required his complete focus and allowed Kylo to assassinate him. She saves Kylo multiple times throughout the royal guard brawl and miraculously displays enough combat proficiency to counter the guards' assortment of exotic weapons. Rey manages to equal Ren in power despite her exerting herself to resist Snoke's torture, but leaves his unconscious body behind because the plot demands it. Lmao at the conclusion of RoS. TL;DR Luke had genuine flaws that were highlighted in OT's narrative while Rey's only character flaw was easily rectified and played no part in impeding her success in TFA or TLJ. The narrative didn't treat Rey's failure to convert Kylo as product of a personal character flaw but his own. A single failure isn't a character flaw like Luke failing to lift his X-Wing out of the swamp, the failure stems from the character's flaws at the time which were his impatience, and doubt.
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Post by river82 on Dec 18, 2019 21:05:09 GMT
I'm seeing quite a few fans of TLJ really not like RoS. So if RoS alienates the fans of TLJ, and those who hated TLJ can't be bothered to see RoS ... the movie will struggle to hit a billion imo.
We'll see I guess. The movie releases internationally today, but not in America till tomorrow? Weird.
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Post by Hier0phant on Dec 18, 2019 21:25:06 GMT
I'm seeing quite a few fans of TLJ really not like RoS. So if RoS alienates the fans of TLJ, and those who hated TLJ can't be bothered to see RoS ... the movie will struggle to hit a billion imo. We'll see I guess. The movie releases internationally today, but not in America till tomorrow? Weird. There's no reason why this film shouldn't make a billion after Captain Marvel's success. If not they'll blame it on the Toxic Fandom but in reality the whole debacle is a shit flinging fest between a bitter JJ, and a lol who cares Rian after the latter scrapped the former's treatment for TLJ. I'm surprised Iger let it all play out like this.
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Post by KaiserShep on Dec 18, 2019 21:58:07 GMT
Leia ignores Chewie a decades old friend to seek console from Rey over Han's death. Heh, I do chuckle at the idea at a possible conversation between the two: Chewbacca: Gr-r-r-r-rm, rragggg Leia: I know Chewy, and thank you. Chewbacca: AAAAAAAaaaarrrrgh Leia: And you're right, but it's hard. Chewbacca: Guugg Leia: Why thank you, I just bought this.
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Post by KaiserShep on Dec 18, 2019 22:00:01 GMT
I'm seeing quite a few fans of TLJ really not like RoS. So if RoS alienates the fans of TLJ, and those who hated TLJ can't be bothered to see RoS ... the movie will struggle to hit a billion imo. We'll see I guess. The movie releases internationally today, but not in America till tomorrow? Weird. There's no reason why this film shouldn't make a billion after Captain Marvel's success. If not they'll blame it on the Toxic Fandom but in reality the whole debacle is a shit flinging fest between a bitter JJ, and a lol who cares Rian after the latter scrapped the former's treatment for TLJ. I'm surprised Iger let it all play out like this. Maybe someone will buy a bunch of tickets for people who simply don't show up.
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Post by Iakus on Dec 18, 2019 22:05:21 GMT
I'm seeing quite a few fans of TLJ really not like RoS. So if RoS alienates the fans of TLJ, and those who hated TLJ can't be bothered to see RoS ... the movie will struggle to hit a billion imo. We'll see I guess. The movie releases internationally today, but not in America till tomorrow? Weird. There's no reason why this film shouldn't make a billion after Captain Marvel's success. If not they'll blame it on the Toxic Fandom but in reality the whole debacle is a shit flinging fest between a bitter JJ, and a lol who cares Rian after the latter scrapped the former's treatment for TLJ. I'm surprised Iger let it all play out like this. JJ at least seems to be a fan of the franchise, even if he is creatively bankrupt. RJ, otoh, I am convinced actively hates Star Wars.
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Post by Hier0phant on Dec 18, 2019 22:09:25 GMT
There's no reason why this film shouldn't make a billion after Captain Marvel's success. If not they'll blame it on the Toxic Fandom but in reality the whole debacle is a shit flinging fest between a bitter JJ, and a lol who cares Rian after the latter scrapped the former's treatment for TLJ. I'm surprised Iger let it all play out like this. Maybe someone will buy a bunch of tickets for people who simply don't show up. That's a big possibility, but this film is also the end to the sequel trilogy too which is a spectacle in of itself, when compared to pst trilogies. Mind you if RoS doesn't make a billion usd by February the franchise is cursed.
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Post by river82 on Dec 18, 2019 22:11:10 GMT
No matter what happens with RoS ... at least the Mandalorian is the most in demand TV show in the world right now. Such a good show, such a big success. Need more shows like this ... No merchandise of Baby Yoda till April? WHAT?
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Post by KaiserShep on Dec 18, 2019 22:25:09 GMT
There's no reason why this film shouldn't make a billion after Captain Marvel's success. If not they'll blame it on the Toxic Fandom but in reality the whole debacle is a shit flinging fest between a bitter JJ, and a lol who cares Rian after the latter scrapped the former's treatment for TLJ. I'm surprised Iger let it all play out like this. JJ at least seems to be a fan of the franchise, even if he is creatively bankrupt. RJ, otoh, I am convinced actively hates Star Wars. I get the feeling that he was trying to dismantle as many things established by the first movie as possible. Hux I think is a prime example. He's no Tarkin, but he wasn't a bumbling fool that was the butt of everyone's jokes either. He was still the technical leader of Snoke's forces, and got to be the one to give the big crazy totally not a Nazi rally speech, but now he gets crank called then rag-dolled around by every force wielder around. I'd bet anything that if Abrams stuck around, Luke wouldn't have tossed the light saber aside as if it was a lump of driftwood he found on the beach.
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Post by Hier0phant on Dec 18, 2019 22:27:06 GMT
There's no reason why this film shouldn't make a billion after Captain Marvel's success. If not they'll blame it on the Toxic Fandom but in reality the whole debacle is a shit flinging fest between a bitter JJ, and a lol who cares Rian after the latter scrapped the former's treatment for TLJ. I'm surprised Iger let it all play out like this. JJ at least seems to be a fan of the franchise, even if he is creatively bankrupt. RJ, otoh, I am convinced actively hates Star Wars. Or he despises JJ and wanted to spite him too. Look at what he left JJ to work with? A dead Luke Skywalker, and Snoke whose hype went out like a wet fart with a single brief toot in the wind, a Kylo Ren who's only intimidating to old women who watch the Lifetime channel, there being no build up for the Knights of Ren or RoS's big bad, Rose Tico existing and a still alive Princess Leia.
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