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Post by mybudgee on Jan 23, 2020 18:40:16 GMT
...and in the few moments it took for him to realize that, he lost Kylo. Its actually interesting that one of the things I noticed re-watching TLJ and the movies this weekend is I think at the end of the movie Luke did think Kylo was redeemable. Leia says something to the effect of 'I know my son is gone' and Luke says 'no one is ever really gone'...which seemed like a really odd line in hindsight but I realized, again since we now have the ENTIRE trilogy to look back on that Luke realized that there was still some chance for Ben's redemption...just that he wasn't going to be the one to do it given his apprentice's feelings of rage and bitterness towards him. You're so perceptive
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Post by colfoley on Jan 23, 2020 18:46:48 GMT
Its actually interesting that one of the things I noticed re-watching TLJ and the movies this weekend is I think at the end of the movie Luke did think Kylo was redeemable. Leia says something to the effect of 'I know my son is gone' and Luke says 'no one is ever really gone'...which seemed like a really odd line in hindsight but I realized, again since we now have the ENTIRE trilogy to look back on that Luke realized that there was still some chance for Ben's redemption...just that he wasn't going to be the one to do it given his apprentice's feelings of rage and bitterness towards him. You're so perceptive thank you, I'm starting to think so too.
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Post by Iakus on Jan 23, 2020 18:57:19 GMT
He's already confronted two Hitlers! AND he knows firsthand that the future isn't set! Baby Hitler doesn't have to become Baby Hitler, always in motion is the future! ...and in the few moments it took for him to realize that, he lost Kylo. Oh it wouldn't have taken him a few moments? See previous statement about people thinking Luke was superhuman because of what happened with the Empire. False. If anything, overconfidence that he could turn Ben back to the Light Side like he did Vader should have been his failing. Luke is idealistic, always rushing off to help people. Luke is RECKLESS. Luke fails spectacularly. Jake doesn't even try. That is nonsense. The idea that Luke MUST still be idealistic and reckless 30 years after Return of the Jedi is absurd - possible sure, but in no way a rule that writers have to follow. Some people can't be redeemed - like Emperor Palpatine. Kylo was one of those people in The Last Jedi, which was fine. Luke IS superhuman. He's a Jedi! No, that doesn't mean he's infallible. But he's been through this stuff before. He's seen firsthand how the Dark SIde works, how people can fall and be redeemed, and how destiny works (or doesn't) The ONLY way The Last Dumpster Fire makes sense is if Luke quite literally "unlearned what he has learned" and went back to being the farm boy on Tatooine whining about wanting to go to Toshe Station for power converters. His entire arc of personal growth and change was completely ignored. If you're going to undo 30+years of growth, you better have a damn good reason. And show your work. Muttering about "subverting expectations" while nibbling cheese and sipping wine ain't gonna do it.
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Post by Iakus on Jan 23, 2020 19:12:15 GMT
...and in the few moments it took for him to realize that, he lost Kylo. Oh it wouldn't have taken him a few moments? See previous statement about people thinking Luke was superhuman because of what happened with the Empire. That is nonsense. The idea that Luke MUST still be idealistic and reckless 30 years after Return of the Jedi is absurd - possible sure, but in no way a rule that writers have to follow. Some people can't be redeemed - like Emperor Palpatine. Kylo was one of those people in The Last Jedi, which was fine. Its actually interesting that one of the things I noticed rewatching TLJ and the movies this weekend is I think at the end of the movie Luke did think Kylo was redeamable. Leia says something to the effect of 'I know my son is gone' and Luke says 'no one is ever really gone'...which seemed like a really odd line in hindsight but I realized, again since we now have the ENTIRE trilogy to look back on that Luke realized that there was still some chance for Ben's redemption...just that he wasn't going to be the one to do it given his apprentice's feelings of rage and bitterness towards him. Yeah Luke decided Kylo was redeemable after Rey beat him up and robbed him, and Yoda showed up to demonstrate that Force Ghosts being unable to interfere with the world was so much BS. Oh, and after he sat on his *ss for years until at the literal very last minute, after it's too late for him to actually save anyone himself (because his X-Wing was in some sort of Schrodinger condition of being either functional or nonfunctional?) he can put on a light show until he strokes out and Rey, the REAL hero can show up. Luke Jake at that point was a hypocrite. He left Leia, Han, Chewie, EVERYONE to sulk and feel sorry for himself. He gave up on them, himself, the Jedi, the Republic, the whole f*cking galaxy. He wasn't biding his time, he wasn't trying to reach out to Ben he wasn't waiting for a new apprentice to train to face the Knights of Ren, he wasn't meditating on the Force, trying to figure out how he failed. He wasn't trying to learn more about Snoke, the Emperor, or this "First Order" Empire-wnnabe? He wasn't trying to commune with the spirits of past Jedi. HE. GAVE. UP! And then he has the gall to patronize Leia, the one member of the old crew who DIDN'T give up with this line? Like he's Luke Skywalker and not Jake Skywalker? Pathetic. Who is he trying to fool?
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Post by colfoley on Jan 23, 2020 19:15:12 GMT
Its actually interesting that one of the things I noticed rewatching TLJ and the movies this weekend is I think at the end of the movie Luke did think Kylo was redeamable. Leia says something to the effect of 'I know my son is gone' and Luke says 'no one is ever really gone'...which seemed like a really odd line in hindsight but I realized, again since we now have the ENTIRE trilogy to look back on that Luke realized that there was still some chance for Ben's redemption...just that he wasn't going to be the one to do it given his apprentice's feelings of rage and bitterness towards him. Yeah Luke decided Kylo was redeemable after Rey beat him up and robbed him, and Yoda showed up to demonstrate that Force Ghosts being unable to interfere with the world was so much BS. Oh, and after he sat on his *ss for years until at the literal very last minute, after it's too late for him to actually save anyone himself (because his X-Wing was in some sort of Schrodinger condition of being either functional or nonfunctional?) he can put on a light show until he strokes out and Rey, the REAL hero can show up. Luke Jake at that point was a hypocrite. He left Leia, Han, Chewie, EVERYONE to sulk and feel sorry for himself. He gave up on them, himself, the Jedi, the Republic, the whole f*cking galaxy. He wasn't biding his time, he wasn't trying to reach out to Ben he wasn't waiting for a new apprentice to train to face the Knights of Ren, he wasn't meditating on the Force, trying to figure out how he failed. He wasn't trying to learn more about Snoke, the Emperor, or this "First Order" Empire-wnnabe? He wasn't trying to commune with the spirits of past Jedi. HE. GAVE. UP! And then he has the gall to patronize Leia, the one member of the old crew who DIDN'T give up with this line? Like he's Luke Skywalker and not Jake Skywalker? Pathetic. Who is he trying to fool? Well, yes Rey is the hero of the sequels.
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Post by Iakus on Jan 23, 2020 19:21:02 GMT
Yeah Luke decided Kylo was redeemable after Rey beat him up and robbed him, and Yoda showed up to demonstrate that Force Ghosts being unable to interfere with the world was so much BS. Oh, and after he sat on his *ss for years until at the literal very last minute, after it's too late for him to actually save anyone himself (because his X-Wing was in some sort of Schrodinger condition of being either functional or nonfunctional?) he can put on a light show until he strokes out and Rey, the REAL hero can show up. Luke Jake at that point was a hypocrite. He left Leia, Han, Chewie, EVERYONE to sulk and feel sorry for himself. He gave up on them, himself, the Jedi, the Republic, the whole f*cking galaxy. He wasn't biding his time, he wasn't trying to reach out to Ben he wasn't waiting for a new apprentice to train to face the Knights of Ren, he wasn't meditating on the Force, trying to figure out how he failed. He wasn't trying to learn more about Snoke, the Emperor, or this "First Order" Empire-wnnabe? He wasn't trying to commune with the spirits of past Jedi. HE. GAVE. UP! And then he has the gall to patronize Leia, the one member of the old crew who DIDN'T give up with this line? Like he's Luke Skywalker and not Jake Skywalker? Pathetic. Who is he trying to fool? Well, yes Rey is the hero of the sequels. And apparently she don't need no man to teach her anything. Because Jake was useless, and Han nearly so.
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Post by colfoley on Jan 23, 2020 19:56:27 GMT
Well, yes Rey is the hero of the sequels. And apparently she don't need no man to teach her anything. Because Jake was useless, and Han nearly so. why do you make comments you know I disagree with?
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Post by Iakus on Jan 23, 2020 20:04:29 GMT
And apparently she don't need no man to teach her anything. Because Jake was useless, and Han nearly so. why do you make comments you know I disagree with? Because I get to express opinions on this forum? At least until Sofa decides they're wrongthink?
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Post by colfoley on Jan 23, 2020 20:06:08 GMT
why do you make comments you know I disagree with? Because I get to express opinions on this forum? At least until Sofa decides they're wrongthink? ...I see.
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Post by mybudgee on Jan 23, 2020 21:11:59 GMT
Well, yes Rey is the hero of the sequels. And apparently she don't need no man to teach her anything. Because Jake was useless, and Han nearly so. It's truly depressing that Di$ney has so little creativity or ingenuity that they basically made the protagonist of the abysmal sequels a cookie-cutter "Di$ney princess", complete with all the juvenile "strong female" tropes & cliche omnipotence I was afraid of back in 2014 when Lucas made the infamous sale. I knew the sequels would be kind of ridiculous back then, but I never imagined Kennedy et al. would actually hijack the EU & simultaneously claim that "they don't have 800-page novels or any source material to draw from" despite DECADES of stuff to get ideas & character arcs... It is pathetic
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Post by Iakus on Jan 23, 2020 22:51:14 GMT
And apparently she don't need no man to teach her anything. Because Jake was useless, and Han nearly so. It's truly depressing that Di$ney has so little creativity or ingenuity that they basically made the protagonist of the abysmal sequels a cookie-cutter "Di$ney princess", complete with all the juvenile "strong female" tropes & cliche omnipotence I was afraid of back in 2014 when Lucas made the infamous sale. I knew the sequels would be kind of ridiculous back then, but I never imagined Kennedy et al. would actually hijack the EU & simultaneously claim that "they don't have 800-page novels or any source material to draw from" despite DECADES of stuff to get ideas & character arcs... It is pathetic Sad to see Chewie reduced to animal sidekick to said Disney Princess too...
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Post by colfoley on Jan 23, 2020 23:10:07 GMT
It's truly depressing that Di$ney has so little creativity or ingenuity that they basically made the protagonist of the abysmal sequels a cookie-cutter "Di$ney princess", complete with all the juvenile "strong female" tropes & cliche omnipotence I was afraid of back in 2014 when Lucas made the infamous sale. I knew the sequels would be kind of ridiculous back then, but I never imagined Kennedy et al. would actually hijack the EU & simultaneously claim that "they don't have 800-page novels or any source material to draw from" despite DECADES of stuff to get ideas & character arcs... It is pathetic Sad to see Chewie reduced to animal sidekick to said Disney Princess too... Yes it was better when he was the animal side kick of a man I suppose?
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Post by Obadiah on Jan 23, 2020 23:19:41 GMT
Sad to see Chewie reduced to animal sidekick to said Disney Princess too... Yes it was better when he was the animal side kick of a man I suppose? At least TFA gave Chewie some agency, made him an excellent pilot in TLJ, and then an excellent (chess?) game player in RoS.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jan 23, 2020 23:24:49 GMT
Yes it was better when he was the animal side kick of a man I suppose? At least TFA gave Chewie some agency, made him an excellent pilot in TLJ, and then an excellent (chess?) game player in RoS. Don’t forget about excellent diplomat in RoS, considering he and Lando got the entire galaxy together to stop the Sith.
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Post by mybudgee on Jan 23, 2020 23:55:33 GMT
I'm SO glad this awful fucking trilogy is finally over
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Post by colfoley on Jan 24, 2020 0:04:11 GMT
Yes it was better when he was the animal side kick of a man I suppose? At least TFA gave Chewie some agency, made him an excellent pilot in TLJ, and then an excellent (chess?) game player in RoS. also gave him his damn medal finally.
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Post by Obadiah on Jan 24, 2020 0:12:58 GMT
At least TFA gave Chewie some agency, made him an excellent pilot in TLJ, and then an excellent (chess?) game player in RoS. Don’t forget about excellent diplomat in RoS, considering he and Lando got the entire galaxy together to stop the Sith. Weird that someone would try to say Chewie's role was reduced in the new trilogy. If anything it was quite noteably expanded to be more than just a sidekick.
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Post by Iakus on Jan 24, 2020 0:32:05 GMT
Don’t forget about excellent diplomat in RoS, considering he and Lando got the entire galaxy together to stop the Sith. Weird that someone would try to say Chewie's role was reduced in the new trilogy. If anything it was quite noteably expanded to be more than just a sidekick. He didn't even get a hug from Leia when Han died! was murdered before his eyes! Even Luke got a blanket from her when he saw Ben get cut down!
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Post by mybudgee on Jan 24, 2020 0:49:04 GMT
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Post by colfoley on Jan 24, 2020 1:14:01 GMT
The horror.
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Post by Heimdall on Jan 24, 2020 1:52:30 GMT
Don’t forget about excellent diplomat in RoS, considering he and Lando got the entire galaxy together to stop the Sith. Weird that someone would try to say Chewie's role was reduced in the new trilogy. If anything it was quite noteably expanded to be more than just a sidekick. Well, I think he was still just a sidekick tbh.
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Post by Lavochkin on Jan 24, 2020 10:26:56 GMT
Oldie but a goodie.
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Post by mybudgee on Jan 24, 2020 16:31:39 GMT
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Post by Iakus on Jan 24, 2020 17:52:21 GMT
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Post by mybudgee on Jan 24, 2020 20:25:46 GMT
Not enough idiotic Feminist tropes?
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