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Post by Noxluxe on Feb 13, 2020 7:54:58 GMT
I believe the implication here is that, if Chewie flew in behind some Tie fighters who happened to line up in a straight line in front the Falcon's turret, Luke or Han couldn't make this shot? *Shrug* M'kay. They couldn't, actually. Blasts from ship-mounted laser guns have always been shown stopping upon hitting and destroying a fighter full-on, not just continuing out into space behind it. Including the Millennium Falcon's canon. Including when Finn used it a few days earlier (at most) in The Force Awakens. Only Rey. It's just dumb and annoying. And especially stupid considering that this is also the movie where they make a point of lasers suddenly being ineffective at range, as if the non-existent air resistance in space is an issue for penetrative power but two Tie-fighters are no protection whatsoever. You guys should be lawyers. I've never seen or heard anyone so eager to find loopholes, desperately try to raise reasonable doubt and generally scramble for any conceivable defense like you do for Rey's power level.
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cypherj
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Post by cypherj on Feb 13, 2020 12:10:52 GMT
I believe the implication here is that, if Chewie flew in behind some Tie fighters who happened to line up in a straight line in front the Falcon's turret, Luke or Han couldn't make this shot? *Shrug* M'kay.
The scene soley exists to display how awesome Rey rey is and killed all the tension. George Lucas with all of his faults wouldn't film such a scene for the OT characters, and Kathleen Kennedy with her hateboner for Luke and Han wouldn't either.
Anyone else that we've seen as a gunner on the Falcon (Luke, Han, Finn) took a while to shoot down the enemy fighters. Which is understandable due to the Falcon making unexpected defensive maneuvers, the enemy pilots actually being competent, and Luke and Finn never having been in the turret before. But Rey. Rey in that scene probably had a ninety percent hit percentage. One squeeze, one kill for the most part. Because she's Rey, and she has to do everything better than every one before her.
But your complaint is a microcosm of the entire movie. They really lost me in the opening scene. You have this big emotional scene where the resistance is being decimated trying take down this ship, and Rose's sister gives her last breath to drop the bombs, only to be interrupted by a prank phone call gag, which completely just killed the scene for me. The scene where they're trying to get Rey to turn to the Dark Side as she's watching her allies be killed only to have a lightsaber fly around the room and hit her in the back of the head as a joke. The movie just had stupid comedy and over the top scenes just thrown in at the completely wrong time.
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Obadiah
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Post by Obadiah on Feb 13, 2020 12:19:04 GMT
I believe the implication here is that, if Chewie flew in behind some Tie fighters who happened to line up in a straight line in front the Falcon's turret, Luke or Han couldn't make this shot? *Shrug* M'kay.
No. The scene soley exists to display how awesome Rey rey is and killed all the tension. George Lucas with all of his faults wouldn't film such a scene for the OT characters, and Kathleen Kennedy with her hateboner for Luke and Han wouldn't either. I very much doubt that most viewers even realized 3 ties fighters were destroyed in that shot while watching the movie. Heaven forbid we consider that this example also shows Chewie is too awesome while complaining about Rey. I believe the implication here is that, if Chewie flew in behind some Tie fighters who happened to line up in a straight line in front the Falcon's turret, Luke or Han couldn't make this shot? *Shrug* M'kay. They couldn't, actually. Blasts from ship-mounted laser guns have always been shown stopping upon hitting and destroying a fighter full-on, not just continuing out into space behind it. Including the Millennium Falcon's canon. Including when Finn used it a few days earlier (at most) in The Force Awakens. Only Rey. It's just dumb and annoying. And especially stupid considering that this is also the movie where they make a point of lasers suddenly being ineffective at range, as if the non-existent air resistance in space is an issue for penetrative power but two Tie-fighters are no protection whatsoever. ... It only looks like one shot, the turret is actually 4 guns that fire in rapid succession. ... You guys should be lawyers. ... I take it that you haven't been trying to prosecute a case against Rey or the sequel trilogy in this thread?
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Noxluxe
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Post by Noxluxe on Feb 13, 2020 12:38:56 GMT
I very much doubt that most viewers even realized 3 ties fighters were destroyed in that shot while watching the movie. It only looks like one shot, the turret is actually 4 guns that fire in rapid succession. I very much doubt that Rian Johnson would agree, or that he would say he put that in without intending anyone to see what happened properly. And even if that was the case it still wouldn't matter to the discussion of Rey's inexplicable expertise at everything. Same difference. In that case it's also been 4 guns that fired in rapid succession all the other times, and they still didn't penetrate beyond the other side of the target. Until Rey pulled the trigger and it suddenly penetrated three at once. I take it that you haven't been trying to prosecute a case against Rey or the sequel trilogy in this thread? No need, the verdict that she's a mary sue was given over four years ago, and it was a pretty open and shut case. And piles of further evidence have been accruing since then. I just feel a moral obligation to help confused people see the truth through their delusions.
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Obadiah
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Post by Obadiah on Feb 13, 2020 16:29:06 GMT
The problem with using this scene as an example of how overpowered Rey is or how easy Force abilities come to her, especially when comparing her to Luke in the video game clip, is that TLJ doesn't show the effort that Rey put into raising all of the rocks, it only shows Rey was eventually successful.
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Post by Hier0phant on Feb 13, 2020 16:38:45 GMT
No. The scene soley exists to display how awesome Rey rey is and killed all the tension. George Lucas with all of his faults wouldn't film such a scene for the OT characters, and Kathleen Kennedy with her hateboner for Luke and Han wouldn't either. I very much doubt that most viewers even realized 3 ties fighters were destroyed in that shot while watching the movie. Heaven forbid we consider that this example also shows Chewie is too awesome while complaining about Rey. Most viewers probably thought Abraham Lincoln: Vampire Hunter was historically accurate too, screw them. Chewie's godly piloting skill is not the focal point of the scene, nevermind there being any logical reason for the tie fighter squad to make such a formation at low altitude in a combat zone beyond Rian Johnson wanting Rey to do awesome cool shit at the expense of any logic. Star Wars flight combat is based on WWII dogfights and not a game of Galaga.
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Post by Iakus on Feb 13, 2020 16:52:19 GMT
I very much doubt that most viewers even realized 3 ties fighters were destroyed in that shot while watching the movie. Heaven forbid we consider that this example also shows Chewie is too awesome while complaining about Rey. Most viewers probably thought Abraham Lincoln: Vampire Hunter was historically accurate too, screw them. Chewie's godly piloting skill is not the focal point of the scene, nevermind there being any logical reason for the tie fighter squad to make such a formation at low altitude in a combat zone beyond Rian Johnson wanting Rey to do awesome cool shit at the expense of any logic. Star Wars flight combat is based on WWII dogfights and not a game of Galaga.
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Obadiah
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Post by Obadiah on Feb 13, 2020 16:54:09 GMT
The scene soley exists to display how awesome Rey rey is and killed all the tension. George Lucas with all of his faults wouldn't film such a scene for the OT characters, and Kathleen Kennedy with her hateboner for Luke and Han wouldn't either. Anyone else that we've seen as a gunner on the Falcon (Luke, Han, Finn) took a while to shoot down the enemy fighters. Which is understandable due to the Falcon making unexpected defensive maneuvers, the enemy pilots actually being competent, and Luke and Finn never having been in the turret before. But Rey. Rey in that scene probably had a ninety percent hit percentage. One squeeze, one kill for the most part. Because she's Rey, and she has to do everything better than every one before her. ... Indeed Rey does appear to have orders of magnitude more skill at turret shooting than Han and Leia. Guess she was using the Force or something, but also, let's be realistic, a lot of the scenes in the OT are a result of the special effects capabilities and budget constraints at the time. I would argue that the Prequel trilogies suffered from a similar lack of constraint... ... But your complaint is a microcosm of the entire movie. They really lost me in the opening scene. You have this big emotional scene where the resistance is being decimated trying take down this ship, and Rose's sister gives her last breath to drop the bombs, only to be interrupted by a prank phone call gag, which completely just killed the scene for me. The scene where they're trying to get Rey to turn to the Dark Side as she's watching her allies be killed only to have a lightsaber fly around the room and hit her in the back of the head as a joke. The movie just had stupid comedy and over the top scenes just thrown in at the completely wrong time.
Not to be overly specifc, but 1) the prank phone scene happens at the start of the escape sequence, way before the bombers are shown or their run starts. 2) I did not think the Snoke move where she was hit with the light saber was meant to be funny, but instead to further underscore how hopeless and overmatched Rey was in that room. Snoke was basically cruelly toying with her before having her killed.
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Post by cypherj on Feb 13, 2020 17:01:26 GMT
The problem with using this scene as an example of how overpowered Rey is or how easy Force abilities come to her, especially when comparing her to Luke in the video game clip, is that TLJ doesn't show the effort that Rey put into raising all of the rocks, it only shows Rey was eventually successful.
I don't believe how she did it is the issue for anyone. But rather the fact that she did it all with no training, only having known she could use the force for a few days. All the boulders are moving as one, and then part themselves to open a tunnel for Finn to run through. I mean, it's OP to extreme extents. This is probably the biggest example of it.
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Post by Hier0phant on Feb 13, 2020 17:05:00 GMT
The problem with using this scene as an example of how overpowered Rey is or how easy Force abilities come to her, especially when comparing her to Luke in the video game clip, is that TLJ doesn't show the effort that Rey put into raising all of the rocks, it only shows Rey was eventually successful. The feat was still effortless for Rey because her face and posture were relaxed, and her demeanor was still calm as she casually parts and, tosses the boulders aside like they were made of styrofoam. Luke while working with a far smaller pile of boulders than the avalanche Rey casually lifted, appeared to struggle based on him closing his eyes, furrowed brows, gritted teeth and hunched posture while he moved the few boulders to the side. This is Rey after only learning that the force wasn't a myth a week ago versus Luke Skywalker one year after Return of The Jedi.
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Post by Noxluxe on Feb 13, 2020 17:43:43 GMT
The problem with using this scene as an example of how overpowered Rey is or how easy Force abilities come to her, especially when comparing her to Luke in the video game clip, is that TLJ doesn't show the effort that Rey put into raising all of the rocks, it only shows Rey was eventually successful. The feat was still effortless for Rey because her face and posture were relaxed, and her demeanor was still calm as she causally parts and, tosses the boulders aside like they were made of styrofoam. Luke while working with a far smaller pile of boulders than the avalanche Rey casually lifted, appeared to struggle based on him closing his eyes, furrowed brows, gritted teeth and hunched posture while he moved the few boulders to the side. This is Rey after only learning that the force wasn't a myth a week ago versus Luke Skywalker one year after Return of The Jedi. Absolutely. Look at her face. She's just looking around thinking "Huh? That worked really well. Guess this is something I can do too." Compare with Yoda's face scrunched up in extreme concentration while catching a much smaller beam and keeping it from crushing Obi-Wan and Anakin in Attack of the Clones. The series has firmly established that the effort of levitating something heavy is ongoing, as it obviously should be, it's not just a matter of using energy to move it and relaxing while holding the object statically in the air. And even if that was the case, which it isn't, you don't skip your protagonist struggling to accomplish something so it looks like they're just doing things without blinking if that wasn't what you intended. Those moments are specifically what makes the audience sympathize with and root for them. Imagine Lord of the Rings, except sans every scene where Frodo grunts or shifts uncomfortably or looks pained by having the ring weighing around his neck, so it looks like the thing is either weightless and harmless or like he's so strong and firm and composed that the effort doesn't even touch him all the way to Mordor. Kinda fucks with the audience's sympathy for him and investment in his quest, doesn't it? These counterarguments are getting thinner and thinner.
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Post by cypherj on Feb 13, 2020 17:50:10 GMT
Anyone else that we've seen as a gunner on the Falcon (Luke, Han, Finn) took a while to shoot down the enemy fighters. Which is understandable due to the Falcon making unexpected defensive maneuvers, the enemy pilots actually being competent, and Luke and Finn never having been in the turret before. But Rey. Rey in that scene probably had a ninety percent hit percentage. One squeeze, one kill for the most part. Because she's Rey, and she has to do everything better than every one before her. ... Indeed Rey does appear to have orders of magnitude more skill at turret shooting than Han and Leia. Guess she was using the Force or something, but also, let's be realistic, a lot of the scenes in the OT are a result of the special effects capabilities and budget constraints at the time. I would argue that the Prequel trilogies suffered from a similar lack of constraint... ... But your complaint is a microcosm of the entire movie. They really lost me in the opening scene. You have this big emotional scene where the resistance is being decimated trying take down this ship, and Rose's sister gives her last breath to drop the bombs, only to be interrupted by a prank phone call gag, which completely just killed the scene for me. The scene where they're trying to get Rey to turn to the Dark Side as she's watching her allies be killed only to have a lightsaber fly around the room and hit her in the back of the head as a joke. The movie just had stupid comedy and over the top scenes just thrown in at the completely wrong time.
Not to be overly specifc, but 1) the prank phone scene happens at the start of the escape sequence, way before the bombers are shown or their run starts. 2) I did not think the Snoke move where she was hit with the light saber was meant to be funny, but instead to further underscore how hopeless and overmatched Rey was in that room. Snoke was basically cruelly toying with her before having her killed.
What do technical limitations have to do with anything. If they wanted to show Luke shot the tie fighters down one after the other in four shots they could easily have done it. They didn't do it because they wanted to show the tie fighters as an actual threat rather than targets flying around saying here, shoot me. That's why they have Luke mention how fast they are. That's why they showed the Falcon taking damage, and Han saying please hold together. So that it seems like they need to figure out how to hit these things before the Falcon is destroyed, creating some tension. Then some sense of accomplishment when they hit them.
As opposed to the scene in the Last Jedi when you start with her hitting three at a time, and then just popping off one with pretty much every shot she takes. It just turns into all spectacle and no substance.
As far as the opening scene in TLJ, I know the fake phone part occurred before the bombing run, that's my point. You open the scene with the Resistance having been found and being wiped out, and then you throw in this stupid prank phone call scene before you try to pivot back to some emotional scene with Rose's sister. Why? You just ruin the entire thing. What purpose does it actually serve in the scene with what you're trying to lay out?
And if the scene if the throne room wasn't supposed to be comedy, they should told the people in my theater because people were laughing. How could it have not meant to be comedy. I thought it was a joke on the scene from ROTJ. But in that scene in ROTJ, when Luke walks in the Emperor removes his restraints with a wave of the finger, Luke's face is says it all. He was like damn, who is this dude. And that transfers onto the audience. That's all you need. Not over the top nonsense.
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Post by Noxluxe on Feb 13, 2020 18:17:42 GMT
As far as the opening scene in TLJ, I know the fake phone part occurred before the bombing run, that's my point. You open the scene with the Resistance having been found and being wiped out, and then you throw in this stupid prank phone call scene before you try to pivot back to some emotional scene with Rose's sister. Why? You just ruin the entire thing. What purpose does it actually serve in the scene with what you're trying to lay out? Not to mention the butt of the joke being Hux, who had been shown to be intelligent, focused and efficient throughout the whole of The Force Awakens. Both Kylo and Phasma screwed up big time several times in that movie for stupid and cowardly and selfish reasons, but Hux made nothing but quick and rational deductions and decisions while hounding the heroes and furthering his dogmatic goals. The only moment he had of losing his composure was during his Hitler speech, which legitimately creeped the hell out of me with the blast from Starkiller Base reflected in his eyes. ...And then he's instantly re-purposed as both the heroes' and the other villains' pathetic, sniveling loudmouth punching bag in the first scene of the second movie. The only villain aside from Snoke who had proven a real threat, and the movie takes a big dump on him first thing, and doesn't stop doing it throughout. The first time I saw it I actually assumed that the original Hux had died in Starkiller Base's explosion and that this was his idiotic older brother or something. And when you watch Rian Johnson's interview on the subject, his reasoning for it basically extends to "I wanted to show the audience that this movie was going to be more light-hearted, that we were going to have fun with it, and I always thought Domhnall Gleeson looked hysterical, so I figured it'd be hilarious to just make him a big joke."
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Post by Hier0phant on Feb 13, 2020 18:32:32 GMT
As far as the opening scene in TLJ, I know the fake phone part occurred before the bombing run, that's my point. You open the scene with the Resistance having been found and being wiped out, and then you throw in this stupid prank phone call scene before you try to pivot back to some emotional scene with Rose's sister.Why? You just ruin the entire thing. What purpose does it actually serve in the scene with what you're trying to lay out? And if the scene if the throne room wasn't supposed to be comedy, they should told the people in my theater because people were laughing. How could it have not meant to be comedy. I thought it was a joke on the scene from ROTJ. But in that scene in ROTJ, when Luke walks in the Emperor removes his restraints with a wave of the finger, Luke's face is says it all. He was like damn, who is this dude. And that transfers onto the audience. That's all you need. Not over the top nonsense. Rian Johnson, Kathleen kennedy and the Story Group tried to replicate Marvel Studios/Kevin Feige's whimsical comedy style but unlike MS they couldn't reconcile when to interweave the comedy with the drama in key sequences and created conflicting tones. This happened too in Godzilla King of The Monsters (2019) and i hope that other directors, and studios would stop trying to ape that style of comedy.
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Post by Noxluxe on Feb 13, 2020 18:35:32 GMT
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Post by Obadiah on Feb 13, 2020 18:52:54 GMT
The problem with using this scene as an example of how overpowered Rey is or how easy Force abilities come to her, especially when comparing her to Luke in the video game clip, is that TLJ doesn't show the effort that Rey put into raising all of the rocks, it only shows Rey was eventually successful. The feat was still effortless for Rey because her face and posture were relaxed, and her demeanor was still calm as she casually parts and, tosses the boulders aside like they were made of styrofoam. Luke while working with a far smaller pile of boulders than the avalanche Rey casually lifted, appeared to struggle based on him closing his eyes, furrowed brows, gritted teeth and hunched posture while he moved the few boulders to the side. This is Rey after only learning that the force wasn't a myth a week ago versus Luke Skywalker one year after Return of The Jedi. Her face is relaxed because that is the proper state to be in when successfully lifting rocks or anything, not straining from the effort. That does not mean there was no effort or failure before that scene of her success.
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Post by Hier0phant on Feb 13, 2020 19:14:11 GMT
The feat was still effortless for Rey because her face and posture were relaxed, and her demeanor was still calm as she casually parts and, tosses the boulders aside like they were made of styrofoam. Luke while working with a far smaller pile of boulders than the avalanche Rey casually lifted, appeared to struggle based on him closing his eyes, furrowed brows, gritted teeth and hunched posture while he moved the few boulders to the side. This is Rey after only learning that the force wasn't a myth a week ago versus Luke Skywalker one year after Return of The Jedi. Her face is relaxed because that is the proper state to be in when successfully lifting rocks or anything, not straining from the effort. That does not mean there was no effort or failure before that scene of her success. Rey a neophyte in the force not a master (only a week) exerted little to no effort when she moved that huge pile of boulders as if it was weightless. Luke with the same potential as Anakin, and roughly five years after discovering the force made a visual effort to move a few boulders as shown by his body language and facial expression. Even by Disney canon standards pre TRoS Rey is a non sensical character.
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Post by Noxluxe on Feb 13, 2020 19:24:06 GMT
Her face is relaxed because that is the proper state to be in when successfully lifting rocks or anything, not straining from the effort. That does not mean there was no effort or failure before that scene of her success. A claim completely disproved by every single other instance of someone using the Force to lift something heavy in the entire saga. Yoda's face doesn't relax until he drops the object. Luke's face doesn't relax until he drops the object. Nobody except Rey just stands there looking around as if confused that it could be this easy to lift dozens of tonnes of solid rock while holding them suspended in the air with her mind. And you could make this argument with literally anything. Who says she didn't actually lift EVEN MORE and BIGGER rocks, like ten times bigger, and it just happened off-screen? And who knows, Poe and Finn could have had sex between leaving the main cave and arriving at the rear exit to see her lift the stone. Just because we didn't see it doesn't mean it didn't happen. So obviously Rey can lift an entire mountain, and those two are in a physical relationship at the end of the movie, right?
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Post by colfoley on Feb 13, 2020 19:36:48 GMT
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Post by Iakus on Feb 13, 2020 19:50:32 GMT
So Disney is further retconning the Star Wars universe. Yay, I guess.
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Post by Noxluxe on Feb 13, 2020 19:51:12 GMT
Ah, I wouldn't be so quick to take that article for gospel if I was you. She quotes Luke himself saying "That's not how it works. The Force can be a trickle, a stream, a river, a flood... for anyone who can sense it." and then she personally interprets that to mean "the Force can be found everywhere – accessible to anyone who tries to reach for it". She just misunderstood the text to fit her own idea of how it should work. A few people are sensitive to the Force, and they can work on attuning themselves to it to use it for their purposes. That's how it's always been. Internet journalism at its finest.
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Post by colfoley on Feb 13, 2020 20:10:02 GMT
Ah, I wouldn't be so quick to take that article for gospel if I was you. She quotes Luke himself saying "That's not how it works. The Force can be a trickle, a stream, a river, a flood... for anyone who can sense it." and then she personally interprets that to mean "the Force can be found everywhere – accessible to anyone who tries to reach for it". She just misunderstood the text to fit her own idea of how it should work. A few people are sensitive to the Force, and they can work on attuning themselves to it to use it for their purposes. That's how it's always been. Internet journalism at its finest. Good eye. However I feel the difference is largely semantical. Since the Force has been established as being a part of all life, even in the OT, then all life can be sensitive to it. But it misses the main point that A. Anyone can get better at the Force if they have it and B. That some people, for whatever reason just have a head start.
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Post by Noxluxe on Feb 13, 2020 20:24:37 GMT
Good eye. However I feel the difference is largely semantical. Since the Force has been established as being a part of all life, even in the OT, then all life can be sensitive to it. But it misses the main point that A. Anyone can get better at the Force if they have it and B. That some people, for whatever reason just have a head start. I wouldn't say that "all life can be sensitive to it". Both because that absolutely hasn't been the case in any of the movies, and because I don't like the idea of a Star Wars where everyone can manifest Force powers. Not to mention that there are entire sentient species stated never to manifest Force sensitivity. That said, there's always been a feeling that ordinary people with unusually strong intuition - like Han Solo for example - could be considered low-key Force Sensitive in that they feel something from the Force, even if it doesn't manifest as actual power over it. I'm not an expert on the Expanded Universe or anything, but I'm pretty sure it wouldn't be a new idea for people like that to have the potential to develop a real sense of the Force with enough training and reflection, while having flown under the Jedi or Sith recruiters' radars because of the weakness subtlety of their connection. And I agree. Considering how much emotional state and state of mind are supposed to influence your power over the Force, we should be seeing more fluctuations in how easily and consistently individual Jedi learn and execute Force powers, especially the younger and less experienced ones who haven't learned to center themselves properly yet. I always thought that Anakin's insecurity and hotheadedness should have been working hard against him tapping into his raw potential, for example.
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Post by colfoley on Feb 13, 2020 20:42:03 GMT
'Doesn't this seem a little out of nowhere' Good eye. However I feel the difference is largely semantical. Since the Force has been established as being a part of all life, even in the OT, then all life can be sensitive to it. But it misses the main point that A. Anyone can get better at the Force if they have it and B. That some people, for whatever reason just have a head start. I wouldn't say that "all life can be sensitive to it". Both because that absolutely hasn't been the case in any of the movies, and because I don't like the idea of a Star Wars where everyone can manifest Force powers. That said, there's always been a feeling that ordinary people with unusually strong intuition - like Han Solo for example - could be considered low-key Force Sensitive in that they feel something from the Force, even if it doesn't manifest as actual power over it. I'm not an expert on the Expanded Universe or anything, but I'm pretty sure it wouldn't be a new idea for people like that to have the potential to develop a real sense of the Force with enough training and reflection, while having flown under the Jedi or Sith recruiters' radars because of the weakness subtlety of their connection. And I agree. Considering how much emotional state and state of mind is supposed to influence your power over the Force, we should be seeing more fluctuations in how easily and consistently individual Jedi learn and execute Force powers, especially the younger and less experienced ones who haven't learned to center themselves properly yet. I always thought that Anakin's hotheadedness was one of the things that worked hard against him tapping into his raw potential, for example. that is pretty much what I meant. It's an interesting thought experiment that we should see more of...but there are a lt least two examples I can think of of this sort of thing. On the other hand we have seen how anger can help focus a Force users abilities.
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Post by Noxluxe on Feb 13, 2020 21:05:10 GMT
'Doesn't this seem a little out of nowhere' that is pretty much what I meant. It's an interesting thought experiment that we should see more of...but there are a lt least two examples I can think of of this sort of thing. On the other hand we have seen how anger can help focus a Force users abilities. Heh, my favorite is Anakin's "Yesh! Chosen One!" after dunking Sidious down yet another hole. He's such a jock. We've also seen how anger can screw up a Force user's focus and sabotage them. I'm sort of on the fence about that. On the one hand, I really like that while anger can enhance you in obvious and pragmatic ways, stringent emotional discipline enables more subtle and complex and maybe more generally useful abilities. On the other, I also really really love the idea that you can ruthlessly harness your anger and hatred with just as much control and become even more powerful without sacrificing focus, like Count Dooku, Mace Windu and Darth Vader at his most rational did. Obviously the dark side will still eventually take your mind on some level, but the best villains are always the ones with better self-control than the heroes. And it seems to me that for a Sith to actually be... well... effective?, they have to develop a lot of discipline to direct themselves intelligently with all that passion coursing through their systems.
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