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Post by colfoley on Mar 16, 2020 21:37:10 GMT
In a take so ridicilious and juicy it has to be accurate...
I realized earlier: The whole Anakin thing being retconned is kind of nonsense given we hear his voice at the end, thus we know he is 'all the Jedi' with Rey...so he still acted through her to balance the Force. I mean I've heard a few theories (which does match on screen events) that she was just basically a Jedi meat puppet at that point.
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Post by Noxluxe on Mar 16, 2020 22:09:56 GMT
In a take so ridicilious and juicy it has to be accurate... I realized earlier: The whole Anakin thing being retconned is kind of nonsense given we hear his voice at the end, thus we know he is 'all the Jedi' with Rey...so he still acted through her to balance the Force. I mean I've heard a few theories (which does match on screen events) that she was just basically a Jedi meat puppet at that point. Except that when in her head he tells her to "restore the balance, like I did". That line makes no sense if he's the one acting rather than her. And it's not like she has any idea who that particular voice is, there's no reason why his encouragement should affect her resolve more than Mace Windu's.
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Post by Sifr on Mar 17, 2020 3:32:35 GMT
Of course people on Twitter tries to ruin the moment by kissing up to Rian Johnson. For a brief moment: #thankyourianjohnson was trending earlier in the morning, I'll never understand why people love him so much. Because he at least tried to give us something new, rather than recycling the orig-trig so we got more of the same like JJ.
TLJ wasn't perfect, but it was far better than ROS, so why isn't JJ getting this level of vitriol for how badly he bungled things?
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Post by colfoley on Mar 17, 2020 4:07:41 GMT
Of course people on Twitter tries to ruin the moment by kissing up to Rian Johnson. For a brief moment: #thankyourianjohnson was trending earlier in the morning, I'll never understand why people love him so much. Because he at least tried to give us something new, rather than recycling the orig-trig so we got more of the same like JJ.
TLJ wasn't perfect, but it was far better than ROS, so why isn't JJ getting this level of vitriol for how badly he bungled things?
He is getting plenty of heat believe me...
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Post by Sifr on Mar 17, 2020 4:33:02 GMT
He is getting plenty of heat believe me... Good, it's rather deserved.
Hopefully RJ will stop being used as a scapegoat for all of the new trilogies failings, because it's been pretty broken from the start.
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Post by colfoley on Mar 17, 2020 4:37:16 GMT
He is getting plenty of heat believe me... Good, it's rather deserved.
Hopefully RJ will stop being used as a scapegoat for all of the new trilogies failings, because it's been pretty broken from the start. Well I can say its quite annoying. I loved the sequel trilogy TFA was terrific, barring a few issues, TLJ was great...and with TROS I haven't been this enamored with a movie since the Lord of the Rings series came out. Or Return of the Jedi before them.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Mar 17, 2020 4:41:06 GMT
He is getting plenty of heat believe me... Good, it's rather deserved.
Hopefully RJ will stop being used as a scapegoat for all of the new trilogies failings, because it's been pretty broken from the start. I don’t think anyone deserves all the hate they get like death threats over a work of fiction.
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Post by smilesja on Mar 17, 2020 4:50:24 GMT
Of course people on Twitter tries to ruin the moment by kissing up to Rian Johnson. For a brief moment: #thankyourianjohnson was trending earlier in the morning, I'll never understand why people love him so much. Because he at least tried to give us something new, rather than recycling the orig-trig so we got more of the same like JJ.
TLJ wasn't perfect, but it was far better than ROS, so why isn't JJ getting this level of vitriol for how badly he bungled things?
No he didn't, Rian rehashed plenty of things from the OT same as Abrams. If you want to see something new watch the prequels.
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Post by smilesja on Mar 17, 2020 4:50:59 GMT
He is getting plenty of heat believe me... Good, it's rather deserved.
Hopefully RJ will stop being used as a scapegoat for all of the new trilogies failings, because it's been pretty broken from the start. They're both to blame in my view.
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Post by colfoley on Mar 17, 2020 4:52:32 GMT
Because he at least tried to give us something new, rather than recycling the orig-trig so we got more of the same like JJ.
TLJ wasn't perfect, but it was far better than ROS, so why isn't JJ getting this level of vitriol for how badly he bungled things?
No he didn't, Rian rehashed plenty of things from the OT same as Abrams. If you want to see something new watch the prequels. I actually find each of the movies of the sequel movie to be less of a copy of their OT counterpart as the series evolved. TFA was a LOT like ANH (not as much as most people say I think but still), and as subversive as TLJ basically was it was still basically a rehash of Empire in a lot of structural ways. Meanwhile Rise of Skywalker, for all the grief it gets for being a rehash, really only one scene in the entire film matched up with Episode 6. Well ok maybe 2.
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Post by Sifr on Mar 17, 2020 5:00:51 GMT
Well I can say its quite annoying. I loved the sequel trilogy TFA was terrific, barring a few issues, TLJ was great...and with TROS I haven't been this enamored with a movie since the Lord of the Rings series came out. Or Return of the Jedi before them. I do overall like the sequel trilogy more than the prequels, but I do think it has equally glaring problems when it comes to the plot and characters.
Finn is one of the best examples, as he doesn't really accomplish anything that impacts the story outside of the first film. Even in TFA, not rescuing Poe wouldn't have changed things much (since Poe's plans almost never work out) and was Finn even really needed to infiltrate Starkiller base? More than that, his character doesn't make much sense, as he seemingly decides to defect after witnessing the death of a fellow Stormtrooper, but then seems to enjoy killing his former fellow Stormtroopers after that?
Kylo is the only character that I really enjoyed in the trilogy, because he's the only one with any real character development or arc. He might be an emo punk for most of the trilogy, but him finally learning to get over himself was the thing I most liked in ROS.
I don’t think anyone deserves all the hate they get like death threats over a work of fiction. Death threats are never necessary, people should take it maybe down a notch.
I wouldn't even wish that on D&D, despite utterly ruining the post-GRRM seasons of Game of Thrones.
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Post by colfoley on Mar 17, 2020 5:18:32 GMT
Well I can say its quite annoying. I loved the sequel trilogy TFA was terrific, barring a few issues, TLJ was great...and with TROS I haven't been this enamored with a movie since the Lord of the Rings series came out. Or Return of the Jedi before them. I do overall like the sequel trilogy more than the prequels, but I do think it has equally glaring problems when it comes to the plot and characters.
Finn is one of the best examples, as he doesn't really accomplish anything that impacts the story outside of the first film. Even in TFA, not rescuing Poe wouldn't have changed things much (since Poe's plans almost never work out) and was Finn even really needed to infiltrate Starkiller base? More than that, his character doesn't make much sense, as he seemingly decides to defect after witnessing the death of a fellow Stormtrooper, but then seems to enjoy killing his former fellow Stormtroopers after that?
Kylo is the only character that I really enjoyed in the trilogy, because he's the only one with any real character development or arc. He might be an emo punk for most of the trilogy, but him finally learning to get over himself was the thing I most liked in ROS.
I don’t think anyone deserves all the hate they get like death threats over a work of fiction. Death threats are never necessary, people should take it maybe down a notch.
I wouldn't even wish that on D&D, despite utterly ruining the post-GRRM seasons of Game of Thrones.
I'll agree about Finn certainly. Its kind of a really bizarre twist of fate that two thirds of the technically 'new trio' ended up being so underdevelopped and so underutilized in a lot of ways and their character arcs so...lack lustre in a lot of ways. Now I will disagree with most of the people here on exactly what the issues were...but they were still there. Finn was largely underdevelopped and just existed to go run after Rey most of the movies and Poes charisma owes a lot to Oscar Issaacs. The new trilogy was carried by Rey/ DR, Kylo Ren/ AD, and Luke. That was the new trio.
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Post by Noxluxe on Mar 17, 2020 9:11:37 GMT
I'll agree about Finn certainly. Its kind of a really bizarre twist of fate that two thirds of the technically 'new trio' ended up being so underdevelopped and so underutilized in a lot of ways and their character arcs so...lack lustre in a lot of ways. Now I will disagree with most of the people here on exactly what the issues were...but they were still there. Finn was largely underdevelopped and just existed to go run after Rey most of the movies and Poes charisma owes a lot to Oscar Issaacs. The new trilogy was carried by Rey/ DR, Kylo Ren/ AD, and Luke. That was the new trio. It wasn't even supposed to be a "new trio". Poe was supposed to die in the first act of The Force Awakens, remember? I enjoyed that movie. It had stupid issues like Finn's characterization and Rey's mary suishness, and the plot did mirror A New Hope. But it was well-paced and full of good moments for all that, and for all of Finn's weirdness his relationships with both Poe and Rey felt strong and real and meaningful. Kylo was a bit pathetic but Hux was intimidating, and the tension between those two made for a credible villain team. And while Snoke was all faroff and mysterious his dialogue and actually somewhat mentorly treatment of Kylo was interesting for an evil mastermind. Sure it had issues, but it left the trilogy with a solid foundation. Which the TLJ then promptly shat upon by manufacturing not one but three totally nonsensical plots, making up new and never-before-heard rules for space battles that sabotaged the next movie and every sequel to come, and alienating fans of the old movies by abjectly refusing to show even a modicum of respect for either of their male heroes. And not only doubling down on Rey's mary suishness but also refusing the opportunity to at least give it a rationale in the form of her parentage. TFA wasn't an instant classic but at least it felt like Abrams tried in that movie. Rian Johnson just did whatever he felt like without caring one bit about it making the least bit of sense. The Rise of Skywalker is an over-convoluted mess where every true moment of emotional significance is either immediately undercut or cheap and unearned, but at that point the wheels have already fallen off the wagon. And overly enthusiastic weirdos delivering death threats and marriage proposals is nothing new, special or particular. Abrams and Rian both earned more money than the vast majority of the human species are ever going to see in their entire lives for a few years' work on these movies. I'm sure they're quite satisfied with the tradeoff, and am not going to waste pity on them over it.
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Post by colfoley on Mar 17, 2020 9:19:59 GMT
I'll agree about Finn certainly. Its kind of a really bizarre twist of fate that two thirds of the technically 'new trio' ended up being so underdevelopped and so underutilized in a lot of ways and their character arcs so...lack lustre in a lot of ways. Now I will disagree with most of the people here on exactly what the issues were...but they were still there. Finn was largely underdevelopped and just existed to go run after Rey most of the movies and Poes charisma owes a lot to Oscar Issaacs. The new trilogy was carried by Rey/ DR, Kylo Ren/ AD, and Luke. That was the new trio. It wasn't even supposed to be a "new trio". Poe was supposed to die in the first act of The Force Awakens, remember? I enjoyed that movie. It had stupid issues like Finn's characterization and Rey's mary suishness, and the plot did mirror A New Hope. But it was well-paced and full of good moments for all that, and for all of Finn's weirdness his relationships with both Poe and Rey felt strong and real and meaningful. Kylo was a bit pathetic but Hux was intimidating, and the tension between those two made for a credible villain team. And while Snoke was all faroff and mysterious his dialogue and actually somewhat mentorly treatment of Kylo was interesting for an evil mastermind. Sure it had issues, but it left the trilogy with a solid foundation. Which the TLJ then promptly shat upon by manufacturing not one but three totally nonsensical plots, making up new and never-before-heard rules for space battles that sabotaged the next movie and every sequel to come, and alienating fans of the old movies by abjectly refusing to show even a modicum of respect for either of their male heroes. And not only doubling down on Rey's mary suishness but also refusing the opportunity to at least give it a rationale in the form of her parentage. TFA wasn't an instant classic but at least it felt like Abrams tried in that movie. Rian Johnson just did whatever he felt like without caring one bit about it making the least bit of sense. The Rise of Skywalker is an over-convoluted mess where every true moment of emotional significance is either immediately undercut or cheap and unearned, but at that point the wheels have already fallen off the wagon. And overly enthusiastic weirdos delivering death threats and marriage proposals is nothing new, special or particular. Abrams and Rian both earned more money than the vast majority of the human species are ever going to see in their entire lives for a few years' work on these movies. I'm sure they're quite satisfied with the tradeoff, and am not going to waste pity on them over it. well I'm definitely in the 'make marriage proposals not death threats' camp.
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Post by cypherj on Mar 17, 2020 11:01:05 GMT
Of course people on Twitter tries to ruin the moment by kissing up to Rian Johnson. For a brief moment: #thankyourianjohnson was trending earlier in the morning, I'll never understand why people love him so much. Because he at least tried to give us something new, rather than recycling the orig-trig so we got more of the same like JJ.
TLJ wasn't perfect, but it was far better than ROS, so why isn't JJ getting this level of vitriol for how badly he bungled things?
You often hear the excuse for the TROS faults as "look what JJ was left to work with by Rian Johnson". Or "I think JJ did a good job considering the mess that Johnson left him".
They had different visions, and people preferred Abram's it seems. Abrams also did things in TROS that people saw as retcons of things they didn't like in TLJ, and he also engaged in some shameless fan service.
I pretty much like the movies in the order they came out in, TROS being my least favorite. Reason being that even though JJ borrowed from ANH, and Rey was wildly OP, I was looking forward to what he setup. Luke training Rey and Snoke training Kylo, setting up some sort of Jaina/Jacen type story.
Johnson did a U turn on that. I could buy Luke being disillusioned. But willing to let Rey go off and be turned to dark side or killed, and his sister be overwhelmed by the First Order on their way to galactic dominance as he was willing to sit on the sideline watching to galaxy burn until talking with Yoda. I just couldn't get there. I honestly think this is what doomed it for Johnson. People would have overlooked Canto Bight, Rose, Finn, and a lot of other things if Luke wasn't taken to such an extreme extent.
But even with that, I thought TJA was better than TROS. I just thought the entire plot of TROS, the storytelling, everything was just awful. Too many plot holes, too many unanswered questions and things that made no sense. Too many things that just conveniently happened to allow the story to proceed. Abrams was let off the hook for all of this due to what I said earlier.
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Post by Iakus on Mar 17, 2020 13:22:35 GMT
Of course people on Twitter tries to ruin the moment by kissing up to Rian Johnson. For a brief moment: #thankyourianjohnson was trending earlier in the morning, I'll never understand why people love him so much. Because he at least tried to give us something new, rather than recycling the orig-trig so we got more of the same like JJ.
TLJ wasn't perfect, but it was far better than ROS, so why isn't JJ getting this level of vitriol for how badly he bungled things?
Because for all his (many) flaws, he at least tried to put out the dumpster fire than Rian lit up the moment he had Jake Skywalker throw away his lightsaber.
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Post by Heimdall on Mar 17, 2020 15:29:47 GMT
I have issues with both of them.
With TFA, JJ Abrams (and I gather this was partly due to edicts from Bob Iger), was too derivative of the original trilogy both in plot and art direction, resulting in an era without a very distinctive look and an all too familiar plot. TROS had similar problems but compounded by the fact that JJ seemed to be trying to get across two films worth of plot across in one movie. There’s no time to breath or contemplate anything.
Rian Johnson flirts with drastically new ideas but doesn’t follow through. Will he abandon the dichotomy of the Jedi and Sith to reach something new? No, Jedi are still champions of good and will continue to be for the foreseeable future. Does the rejection of Jedi bloodlines open up new horizons? Honestly I never really understood why people thought this was a big deal since that never seemed to be a big thing in Star Wars. The family dynamic between Luke and Vader was about furthering the dramatic tension between characters not pushing some weird elitist bloodline ideology. After watching Knives Out I’ve become convinced that Johnson is working through a preoccupation about entitlement and privilege. It doesn’t actually make Rey into an Everyman since she’s still an archetypical chosen one who’s great power comes through the cosmic force of destiny rather than personal effort. Yes Anakin falls into that basket too, but his decades of training and war experience made it feel more justified in universe. I got a bit off topic there. On top of that I can get behind Luke’s initial mistake and his disillusionment, but Rian just failed to sell that he would totally give up without trying to fix the situation and abandon his friends.
And there’s the whole Canto Bight bit which, while not unprecedented in its message in Star Wars, was totally disconnected from the overall themes of the film. So, yes, he tried to do some new things but I don’t think he was very successful. Part of the time his plot is on a disconnected tangent, part of the time he’s trying to fix things about Star Wars that didn’t really need fixing. It was too much for one movie.
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Post by Heimdall on Mar 17, 2020 15:36:13 GMT
All that being said, I found myself genuinely enjoying all the actors and characters made for these movies, I just wish some stronger plots were written for them.
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Post by Hier0phant on Mar 17, 2020 16:29:03 GMT
In TRoS's novelization Rey uses the jedi mind trick on Finn which suggests that he's weak-minded despite him having the mental fortitude to overcome the FO's brainwashing/conditioning, and is force sensitive too. Finn's character can never catch a break.
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Post by Iakus on Mar 17, 2020 16:43:53 GMT
All that being said, I found myself genuinely enjoying all the actors and characters made for these movies, I just wish some stronger plots were written for them. The actors deserved far better than the drek they were stuck with.
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Post by cypherj on Mar 17, 2020 16:49:19 GMT
In TRoS's novelization Rey uses the jedi mind trick on Finn which suggests that he's weak-minded despite him having the mental fortitude to overcome the FO's brainwashing/conditioning, and is force sensitive too. Finn's character can never catch a break.
Wait. So she climbed down the hill, sprinted away, and Jedi mind tricked him from a distance with only a thought? Even her Jedi mind trick is OP.
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Post by Hier0phant on Mar 17, 2020 17:21:39 GMT
In TRoS's novelization Rey uses the jedi mind trick on Finn which suggests that he's weak-minded despite him having the mental fortitude to overcome the FO's brainwashing/conditioning, and is force sensitive too. Finn's character can never catch a break.
Wait. So she climbed down the hill, sprinted away, and Jedi mind tricked him from a distance with only a thought? Even her Jedi mind trick is OP.
I'd like to think that the mind trick didn't work but Disney has shat on the character to such a degree that it wouldn't surprise me if it did work.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Mar 17, 2020 17:27:11 GMT
In TRoS's novelization Rey uses the jedi mind trick on Finn which suggests that he's weak-minded despite him having the mental fortitude to overcome the FO's brainwashing/conditioning, and is force sensitive too. Finn's character can never catch a break.
Wait. So she climbed down the hill, sprinted away, and Jedi mind tricked him from a distance with only a thought? Even her Jedi mind trick is OP.
Eh, it reads more like just an encouragement rather than a full blown mind trick. Like Obi-Wan telling Luke to run after dying on the Death Star.
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