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Post by mybudgee on Mar 17, 2020 18:00:41 GMT
Wait. So she climbed down the hill, sprinted away, and Jedi mind tricked him from a distance with only a thought? Even her Jedi mind trick is OP.
Eh, it reads more like just an encouragement rather than a full blown mind trick. Like Obi-Wan telling Luke to run after dying on the Death Star. Except it states that she USES the FORCE more than once. Obi-Wan was at one with the Cosmic Force by that point in ep. 4, so any contact he had with Luke was a simple subliminal suggestion. Rey was right in front of Finn... not at all the same thing
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Post by cypherj on Mar 17, 2020 18:06:26 GMT
Wait. So she climbed down the hill, sprinted away, and Jedi mind tricked him from a distance with only a thought? Even her Jedi mind trick is OP.
Eh, it reads more like just an encouragement rather than a full blown mind trick. Like Obi-Wan telling Luke to run after dying on the Death Star.
That's not how it reads to me at all. Obi-Wan spoke to Luke through the force as a ghost.
They used the same wording in both references in this passage. Before she went down the hill, and after she climbed down and walked away. Pushed him with the force. She wouldn't have needed to speak to him like Obi-Wan did Luke while he was standing there right in front of her the first time this is referenced. Pushed him with the force is pretty obvious in its meaning. It also didn't say she didn't know if he listened to her. It says she didn't know if he obeyed. As in obeyed the command she gave him with the force.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Mar 17, 2020 18:09:37 GMT
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Mar 17, 2020 18:10:33 GMT
Well of course it reads differently to you two. You both are constantly looking for any chance to trash the story.
But I thought of a better example: Luke calling out to Leia at the end of V.
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Post by cypherj on Mar 17, 2020 18:28:21 GMT
Well of course it reads differently to you two. You both are constantly looking for any chance to trash the story. But I thought of a better example: Luke calling out to Leia at the end of V.
Once again, two people not in the same place.
If you were writing that how would you do it? He called out to her through the force, but did not know if she had heard him. Not, he pushed her through the force and didn't know if she obeyed.
The word obeyed speaks for itself.
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Post by Noxluxe on Mar 17, 2020 18:58:14 GMT
Wait a second. Rey just casually tries to mind control Finn? Her friend, the child slave turned brainwashed soldier? For no reason at all? Explain to me how that isn't a huge violation of both his newfound self-determination and their friendship. Not to mention a very, very black mark on Rey's record as a "Jedi". It's hilarious if this moment of her mind-raping her most faithful buddy on a whim is totally glossed over, while shooting lightning by complete accident five minutes later is somehow an indictment of her moral character. They really just don't give a shit, do they?
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Post by masterwarderz on Mar 17, 2020 19:15:28 GMT
They really just don't give a shit, do they? Indeed, they do not. ._. Never minding the fact that there until this run of flicks has never been "casual" lightning, it is the manifestation of the Dark Side's wrath and power, its fueled by hatreds and base emotions that can in no way be construed as a positive. Even good ol Kyle back in the day, the whole reason we ever even got the idea in the first place that you could have a Jedi who skirts the line between darkness and light, in the novelizations of the Dark Forces games, barely was able to withdraw from opening himself up to all his anger and hatred. He had to outright direct his rage and focus it to manifest the lightning and even then he felt weakened and drained once he closed himself off to that part of the Force again, hence why in the books he was never a usual part of his wheelhouse. Unlike things such as Force Choke, Crush or what have you which are merely more combative applications of Telekinesis. Simply put it like the life draining techniques and calling upon wrath and anger to fuel and strengthen the body is a strictly Darksider technique.
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Post by colfoley on Mar 17, 2020 19:19:48 GMT
I don't think anyone is taking into account when this is happening. And while the wording is confusing it has to be during the confrontation on Passana between Rey and Kylo.
Which Finn didn't 'obey' the mind trick, if that's what it was.
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Post by cypherj on Mar 17, 2020 20:27:54 GMT
Wait. So she climbed down the hill, sprinted away, and Jedi mind tricked him from a distance with only a thought? Even her Jedi mind trick is OP.
I'd like to think that the mind trick didn't work but Disney has shat on the character to such a degree that it wouldn't surprise me if it did work. Well, he didn't run after her screaming 'Rey', as per his usual behavior whenever he's around her. So, draw whatever conclusion you will from that.
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Post by colfoley on Mar 17, 2020 20:33:10 GMT
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem
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XBL Gamertag: ObadiahPearce
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Post by Obadiah on Mar 18, 2020 2:00:26 GMT
Wait. So she climbed down the hill, sprinted away, and Jedi mind tricked him from a distance with only a thought? Even her Jedi mind trick is OP.
Eh, it reads more like just an encouragement rather than a full blown mind trick. Like Obi-Wan telling Luke to run after dying on the Death Star. I'd like to add that I'd be surprised if that excerpt was the last we heard of that incident in the book.
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Post by colfoley on Mar 18, 2020 8:25:30 GMT
In other news have gotten through season 5 of the Clone Wars and wasn't able to watch every episode but man this has been...well the weakest season since season 1. I didn't really like any of the arcs until...well really the last one with Ahsoka's trial. A lot of them had a lot of everything that I do not like about the Clone Wars and while the Mandalorian was pretty descent in a lot of ways...it still featured Darth Maul and we all know how I feel about him. lol.
That being said it is telling that the last two arcs of the season featured the two best lightsaber fights in the show (and 2 of the best 3 in the Rebels/ Clone Wars animation style) first between Palpatine/Maul/ Savage...then against Anakin and Baris.
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Post by Noxluxe on Mar 18, 2020 18:49:32 GMT
Indeed, they do not. ._. Never minding the fact that there until this run of flicks has never been "casual" lightning, it is the manifestation of the Dark Side's wrath and power, its fueled by hatreds and base emotions that can in no way be construed as a positive. Even good ol Kyle back in the day, the whole reason we ever even got the idea in the first place that you could have a Jedi who skirts the line between darkness and light, in the novelizations of the Dark Forces games, barely was able to withdraw from opening himself up to all his anger and hatred. He had to outright direct his rage and focus it to manifest the lightning and even then he felt weakened and drained once he closed himself off to that part of the Force again, hence why in the books he was never a usual part of his wheelhouse. Unlike things such as Force Choke, Crush or what have you which are merely more combative applications of Telekinesis. Simply put it like the life draining techniques and calling upon wrath and anger to fuel and strengthen the body is a strictly Darksider technique. At this point it's just meaningless to rail about her demonstrating sudden and inexplicable new powers for no reason. We have three movies of that already. I'm more worried about what this says about the writers' view of Rey herself. Apparently the idea that she might actually do something morally dubious was so foreign to Rae Carson's mind that it didn't even occur to her that invading her friends' heads and needlessly enslaving them to her will is problematic, as long as Rey is the one doing it. Then it's just a young woman flexing and testing her power, after all! And that's a cool and good thing, right? Combined with her completely accidental Force Lightning being treated as a serious indictment of her "dark side" in RoS, not to mention the portrayals of Rose's, Holdo's and Leia's actions in TLJ, this indicates to me that the writers of Star Wars have just collectively stopped considering right from wrong and sense from nonsense when determining how their female characters think and act and how to portray it. Apparently this is just the new way of things. If a female protagonist deliberately does something evil or stupid then it... isn't. For no reason. And if a female protagonist must be portrayed as fallible for the purposes of building tension then it's because of something they did by accident through no actual fault of their own, and/or which is subsequently shown not to have any negative consequences anyway. And if a male protagonist does something good and sensible, but a female character doesn't think so for nonsensical and arbitrary reasons, then he actually didn't and should learn his place and listen more to women. Thank you Disney, real progressive mentality you're pushing here. Way to promote gender equality.
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Post by colfoley on Mar 18, 2020 19:43:34 GMT
Indeed, they do not. ._. Never minding the fact that there until this run of flicks has never been "casual" lightning, it is the manifestation of the Dark Side's wrath and power, its fueled by hatreds and base emotions that can in no way be construed as a positive. Even good ol Kyle back in the day, the whole reason we ever even got the idea in the first place that you could have a Jedi who skirts the line between darkness and light, in the novelizations of the Dark Forces games, barely was able to withdraw from opening himself up to all his anger and hatred. He had to outright direct his rage and focus it to manifest the lightning and even then he felt weakened and drained once he closed himself off to that part of the Force again, hence why in the books he was never a usual part of his wheelhouse. Unlike things such as Force Choke, Crush or what have you which are merely more combative applications of Telekinesis. Simply put it like the life draining techniques and calling upon wrath and anger to fuel and strengthen the body is a strictly Darksider technique. At this point it's just meaningless to rail about her demonstrating sudden and inexplicable new powers for no reason. We have three movies of that already. I'm more worried about what this says about the writers' view of Rey herself. Apparently the idea that she might actually do something morally dubious was so foreign to Rae Carson's mind that it didn't even occur to her that invading her friends' heads and needlessly enslaving them to her will is problematic, as long as Rey is the one doing it. Then it's just a young woman flexing and testing her power, after all! And that's a cool and good thing, right? Combined with her completely accidental Force Lightning being treated as a serious indictment of her "dark side" in RoS, not to mention the portrayals of Rose's, Holdo's and Leia's actions in TLJ, this indicates to me that the writers of Star Wars have just collectively stopped considering right from wrong and sense from nonsense when determining how their female characters think and act and how to portray it. Apparently this is just the new way of things. If a female protagonist deliberately does something evil or stupid then it... isn't. For no reason. And if a female protagonist must be portrayed as fallible for the purposes of building tension then it's because of something they did by accident through no actual fault of their own, and/or which is subsequently shown not to have any negative consequences anyway. And if a male protagonist does something good and sensible, but a female character doesn't think so for nonsensical and arbitrary reasons, then he actually didn't and should learn his place and listen more to women. Thank you Disney, real progressive mentality you're pushing here. Way to promote gender equality. my eyes are rolling so hard they could probably power a small city. First off there is no smoking gun here that this is a mind trick. Sure the word obey is a bit eyebrow raising but it's not enough to be indicative by itself and really seems like the conclusion was formed before looking at the actual evidence (like most takes around here honestly). Second the mind trick has always been SUPER sketch. Frankly it's kind of one of the things that point to the hubris and hypocrisy of the Jedi Order. Mind manipulation SHOULD be a dark side Force ability but calling it a 'trick' suddenly makes it ok. And in most fictional settings mind control is generally considered a mark of evil...like blood magic leading to MC in DA. There is some justification where Jedi typically only utilizes it as a last resort against scum...except when Obi-Wan just casually used it on a random civilian. Who was annoying him. Told him to rethink his life too. Only time SWs has really called the practice into question is when Obi-Wan/ Anakin/ windu mind raped Cad Bane. Complete with ominous music and one uncomfortable Ahsoka.
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∯ Interjector in Chief
Staff Mini-Profile Theme: Heimdall
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Origin: HeimdallX
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Post by Heimdall on Mar 18, 2020 19:53:33 GMT
There is some justification where Jedi typically only utilizes it as a last resort against scum...except when Obi-Wan just casually used it on a random civilian. Who was annoying him. Told him to rethink his life too. That’s one of the only parts I like about that movie though, so I give it a pass
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Post by mybudgee on Mar 18, 2020 20:16:45 GMT
At this point it's just meaningless to rail about her demonstrating sudden and inexplicable new powers for no reason. We have three movies of that already. I'm more worried about what this says about the writers' view of Rey herself. Apparently the idea that she might actually do something morally dubious was so foreign to Rae Carson's mind that it didn't even occur to her that invading her friends' heads and needlessly enslaving them to her will is problematic, as long as Rey is the one doing it. Then it's just a young woman flexing and testing her power, after all! And that's a cool and good thing, right? Combined with her completely accidental Force Lightning being treated as a serious indictment of her "dark side" in RoS, not to mention the portrayals of Rose's, Holdo's and Leia's actions in TLJ, this indicates to me that the writers of Star Wars have just collectively stopped considering right from wrong and sense from nonsense when determining how their female characters think and act and how to portray it. Apparently this is just the new way of things. If a female protagonist deliberately does something evil or stupid then it... isn't. For no reason. And if a female protagonist must be portrayed as fallible for the purposes of building tension then it's because of something they did by accident through no actual fault of their own, and/or which is subsequently shown not to have any negative consequences anyway. And if a male protagonist does something good and sensible, but a female character doesn't think so for nonsensical and arbitrary reasons, then he actually didn't and should learn his place and listen more to women. Thank you Disney, real progressive mentality you're pushing here. Way to promote gender equality. Only time SWs has really called the practice into question is when Obi-Wan/ Anakin/ windu mind raped Cad Bane. Complete with ominous music and one uncomfortable Ahsoka. At what point do the ends justify the means??
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Post by colfoley on Mar 18, 2020 20:20:04 GMT
There is some justification where Jedi typically only utilizes it as a last resort against scum...except when Obi-Wan just casually used it on a random civilian. Who was annoying him. Told him to rethink his life too. That’s one of the only parts I like about that movie though, so I give it a pass well it was funny but that don't remove the interesting moral implications.
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Post by smilesja on Mar 18, 2020 20:31:53 GMT
Only time SWs has really called the practice into question is when Obi-Wan/ Anakin/ windu mind raped Cad Bane. Complete with ominous music and one uncomfortable Ahsoka. At what point do the ends justify the means?? Now Star Wars..... You will die..... You will die...….
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Post by colfoley on Mar 18, 2020 20:57:52 GMT
Sometimes I think in an effort to prove my fan cred I should list the things I think each trilogy has done the best, but then since no one has asked me I bide my time twiddling my thumbs.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Mar 18, 2020 21:00:52 GMT
Sometimes I think in an effort to prove my fan cred I should list the things I think each trilogy has done the best, but then since no one has asked me I bide my time twiddling my thumbs. What do you think each trilogy has done the best?
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
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Post by Noxluxe on Mar 18, 2020 21:37:38 GMT
my eyes are rolling so hard they could probably power a small city. First off there is no smoking gun here that this is a mind trick. Sure the word obey is a bit eyebrow raising but it's not enough to be indicative by itself and really seems like the conclusion was formed before looking at the actual evidence (like most takes around here honestly). Second the mind trick has always been SUPER sketch. Frankly it's kind of one of the things that point to the hubris and hypocrisy of the Jedi Order. Mind manipulation SHOULD be a dark side Force ability but calling it a 'trick' suddenly makes it ok. And in most fictional settings mind control is generally considered a mark of evil...like blood magic leading to MC in DA. There is some justification where Jedi typically only utilizes it as a last resort against scum...except when Obi-Wan just casually used it on a random civilian. Who was annoying him. Told him to rethink his life too. Only time SWs has really called the practice into question is when Obi-Wan/ Anakin/ windu mind raped Cad Bane. Complete with ominous music and one uncomfortable Ahsoka. I'm sure your computer monitor is very impressed with you. It's incredible how far outside the actual depicted or implied events of the movies you're willing to go in order to justify what happens in them, while when it comes to something that reflects poorly on them you suddenly lose the ability - or the motivation? - to simply put two and two together. It's also hilariously hypocritical of you to accuse anyone of making hurried assumptions considering how many of your points have relied on conveniently forgetting or outright reordering what happens in the story to suit your rosy image of the trilogy. And second, exactly. The mind trick is super invasive and easy to abuse, which is funnily enough why we don't see it used left and right whenever something just doesn't suit a Jedi. I either haven't seen or just don't remember the scene you're talking about with Cad Bane, but tell me, did Anakin, Obi-Wan and Windu do it just for shits and giggles? Or was there something more important than a murderous criminal's momentary mental freedom at stake? You pose the scene where a drug dealer propositions Obi-Wan as an abuse of the power. Why exactly? It's funny, yes, but it's not a joke. The man is a career criminal dealing illegal and destructive substances to others who is bothering Obi-Wan while he's on a mission tracking an assassin and needs to concentrate. As a Jedi he's perfectly within his rights to arrest the man and imprison him, and instead he forces him to go home and think about his life. A violation, definitely, but not selfish or malicious, and not without important reason. Rey apparently mind controls Finn to let her run off and play with Kylo - which delays their escape and gets Chewie captured and ostensibly killed - entirely because she can't be arsed to actually justify doing so verbally and trust him to make his own decisions.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, KOTOR, Mass Effect Andromeda
XBL Gamertag: Evil Mastered
PSN: Evil_Rurouni
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Post by Evil on Mar 18, 2020 22:41:03 GMT
That’s one of the only parts I like about that movie though, so I give it a pass well it was funny but that don't remove the interesting moral implications. There really wasn't much in the way of moral implications to remove. The dumbass was trying to sell a pseudo law enforcer death sticks. DEATH FUKKN STICKS.What options did Obi Wan have? 1/ Ignore him. Dude keeps selling death sticks, making Obi Wan partially responsible for every resultant death. 2/ Arrest him. Not really an option while busy tracking an assassin. Priorities. 3/ Kill him. Really not an option for Obi Wan. Anakin might have gutted him just for being too dumb to live however. He clearly took the path of least overall harm.
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Post by colfoley on Mar 18, 2020 23:21:23 GMT
Sometimes I think in an effort to prove my fan cred I should list the things I think each trilogy has done the best, but then since no one has asked me I bide my time twiddling my thumbs. What do you think each trilogy has done the best? Thank you Hanako. Prequels: Worldbuilding/ politics. Lightsaber Cheoreography General uniqueness OT: Action scenes. Plot writing/ plot cohesion. Just overall better presentation. Sequels: Character writing (Rey, Kylo Ren, and Luke make up for whatever weakenesses in some of the secondary characters/ villains) Directing/ Acting (Daisy Ridley, Adam Driver, and Mark Hamil make up for whatever weaknesses in the execution with the secondary cast...though in this case I don't think that 'bad acting' can be ascribed to anyone, they all did the best with what they had) Philosophcally deeper/ more engaging/ healthy. ...weird that pretty much all three of them had three things I liked. Generally speaking the Prequels and OT both had the better action scenes of the trilogy and the Sequels were kind of weak...the sequels were better shot and more beautiful but overal the OT really had some just chilling moments where all the mis-en-scene combined to great effect. my eyes are rolling so hard they could probably power a small city. First off there is no smoking gun here that this is a mind trick. Sure the word obey is a bit eyebrow raising but it's not enough to be indicative by itself and really seems like the conclusion was formed before looking at the actual evidence (like most takes around here honestly). Second the mind trick has always been SUPER sketch. Frankly it's kind of one of the things that point to the hubris and hypocrisy of the Jedi Order. Mind manipulation SHOULD be a dark side Force ability but calling it a 'trick' suddenly makes it ok. And in most fictional settings mind control is generally considered a mark of evil...like blood magic leading to MC in DA. There is some justification where Jedi typically only utilizes it as a last resort against scum...except when Obi-Wan just casually used it on a random civilian. Who was annoying him. Told him to rethink his life too. Only time SWs has really called the practice into question is when Obi-Wan/ Anakin/ windu mind raped Cad Bane. Complete with ominous music and one uncomfortable Ahsoka. I'm sure your computer monitor is very impressed with you. It's incredible how far outside the actual depicted or implied events of the movies you're willing to go in order to justify what happens in them, while when it comes to something that reflects poorly on them you suddenly lose the ability - or the motivation? - to simply put two and two together. It's also hilariously hypocritical of you to accuse anyone of making hurried assumptions considering how many of your points have relied on conveniently forgetting or outright reordering what happens in the story to suit your rosy image of the trilogy. And second, exactly. The mind trick is super invasive and easy to abuse, which is funnily enough why we don't see it used left and right whenever something just doesn't suit a Jedi. I either haven't seen or just don't remember the scene you're talking about with Cad Bane, but tell me, did Anakin, Obi-Wan and Windu do it just for shits and giggles? Or was there something more important than a murderous criminal's momentary mental freedom at stake? You pose the scene where a drug dealer propositions Obi-Wan as an abuse of the power. Why exactly? It's funny, yes, but it's not a joke. The man is a career criminal dealing illegal and destructive substances to others who is bothering Obi-Wan while he's on a mission tracking an assassin and needs to concentrate. As a Jedi he's perfectly within his rights to arrest the man and imprison him, and instead he forces him to go home and think about his life. A violation, definitely, but not selfish or malicious, and not without important reason. Rey apparently mind controls Finn to let her run off and play with Kylo - which delays their escape and gets Chewie captured and ostensibly killed - entirely because she can't be arsed to actually justify doing so verbally and trust him to make his own decisions. First, I do recognize the point. As I said the word 'obey' appearing here is super sketchy, I just don't think its enough to 100% convince me that she employed a mind trick there. Second, even if she did use it it doesen't really change how I see the character....given that I already think she was a deeply flawed character in the first two movies (especially TLJ) and this is just another example of one, albeit a flaw that only really came to the forefront in TROS...the 'Harry Potter' syndrome I'd like to call it, where she wants to go it alone no matter what and often employs weird methods to achieve that isolation. Second, oh I know there is justification for it...in context Cad had kidnapped a Jedi and they were trying to get information on their whereabouts. But, the entire presentation of the scene made the Jedi actions creepy as hell with Ahsoka giving the rest of the Jedi very uncomfortable glances. And generally speaking even if they were justified to do so in terms of practical need...that kind of mind manipulation is never morally righteous. Third, your logic defending Obi-Wan could just as easily apply to Rey. She was facing off against Kylo Ren, a powerful Darkside user, she needed all of her concentration on HIM, she couldn't worry about Finn in that situation and being the slightly nice and upstanding citizen she is she couldn't bear having her friends in danger so she wanted to get him out of harmsway. well it was funny but that don't remove the interesting moral implications. There really wasn't much in the way of moral implications to remove. The dumbass was trying to sell a pseudo law enforcer death sticks. DEATH FUKKN STICKS.What options did Obi Wan have? 1/ Ignore him. Dude keeps selling death sticks, making Obi Wan partially responsible for every resultant death. 2/ Arrest him. Not really an option while busy tracking an assassin. Priorities. 3/ Kill him. Really not an option for Obi Wan. Anakin might have gutted him just for being too dumb to live however. He clearly took the path of least overall harm. Perhaps. But what bothers me, from a moral point of view is 'rethink your life'. Not 'leave me alone' or 'go away I am on a sensitive mission' but 'rethink your life', that is a moral bridge too far.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Mar 18, 2020 23:45:57 GMT
If you want a Jedi who abused the Mind Trick ability, just look at Qui-Gon. He abuses that ability hard, from manipulating the leader of a race of people to help him against that leader's wishes, to even trying to use it just to try to save some money after being told the currency he has is worthless. Then of course him abusing other abilities, like fixing a game to his liking with telekinesis.
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Noxluxe
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
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Post by Noxluxe on Mar 19, 2020 0:08:11 GMT
First, I do recognize the point. As I said the word 'obey' appearing here is super sketchy, I just don't think its enough to 100% convince me that she employed a mind trick there. Second, even if she did use it it doesen't really change how I see the character....given that I already think she was a deeply flawed character in the first two movies (especially TLJ) and this is just another example of one, albeit a flaw that only really came to the forefront in TROS...the 'Harry Potter' syndrome I'd like to call it, where she wants to go it alone no matter what and often employs weird methods to achieve that isolation. Second, oh I know there is justification for it...in context Cad had kidnapped a Jedi and they were trying to get information on their whereabouts. But, the entire presentation of the scene made the Jedi actions creepy as hell with Ahsoka giving the rest of the Jedi very uncomfortable glances. And generally speaking even if they were justified to do so in terms of practical need...that kind of mind manipulation is never morally righteous. Third, your logic defending Obi-Wan could just as easily apply to Rey. She was facing off against Kylo Ren, a powerful Darkside user, she needed all of her concentration on HIM, she couldn't worry about Finn in that situation and being the slightly nice and upstanding citizen she is she couldn't bear having her friends in danger so she wanted to get him out of harmsway. What do you mean you're "not 100% convinced"? The chapter wouldn't have been written to imply that she tried to use the Force to persuade him if she didn't. And yes, we all know you're convinced that Rey is a deep and well-written character with thoroughly developed flaws that are just never discussed or addressed in the least and for which she never suffers over the course of three movies. Nobody said it was morally righteous. So far as I know the Jedi as an organization never claim to be perfectly moral and effective heroes who are never forced to compromise. They're still human, among other things, and that means occasionally being forced to extreme measures to resolve a dire situation. That they try very hard for it not to get to that point doesn't make that hypocrisy. Uhm, no? Rey using the Force to persuade Finn clearly doesn't take significantly less time or focus than doing so verbally would. She doesn't even try to explain while giving him her equipment or climbing down from the cliff, even though it would cost her nothing. He's her friend and knows that he isn't a match for Kylo, there's no reason why he wouldn't listen to her plan. On the contrary, her abandoning her friends with no explanation leaves them confused and vulnerable, and actually endangers them by delaying their escape, which is an entirely foreseeable result of her just going off at random. Meaning that she mind-controls Finn for literally no reason except because she gets a stupid idea and doesn't feel like explaining, which almost gets Chewie killed, and nobody and nothing even tries to hold her to account because the writers clearly don't see it as flawed behavior. As per. If you want a Jedi who abused the Mind Trick ability, just look at Qui-Gon. He abuses that ability hard, from manipulating the leader of a race of people to help him against that leader's wishes, to even trying to use it just to try to save some money after being told the currency he has is worthless. Then of course him abusing other abilities, like fixing a game to his liking with telekinesis. ...all of which is done specifically in order to get Admidala out of danger and back to the Republic to resolve a planetary conquest, and freeing the Chosen One who's going to bring balance to the Force. He's not exactly doing it just because he wants to. And unlike Rey, Qui-Gon's recklessness and liberal interpretation of the Jedi code is something other characters remark on and hold against him.
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