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Post by Noxluxe on Apr 2, 2020 5:19:19 GMT
Ooh, I have one. She had just a day or so ago lost her sister and seemingly only family who flew into the enemy and sacrificed herself for the Resistance and was helpless to stop it. Now the same thing was happening with Finn whom at the time a romance was happening so now with another person she loves she doesn't want to go through that again so stops him. This also explains her sudden declaration of love for him. Not saying her thoughts were sound, but it is definitely one a person could be in during that moment. Oh, I'd buy that her impulse would be to try to stop him if she could. I don't buy that it would be to kill them both, especially not at the direct cost of the Resistance her sister died for. Also, "romance" might be a bit much. I mean, she's apparently crushing on him but she's only known him for about a day and we never see anything coming back the other way, even when she kisses him. And it's never mentioned again.
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Post by Obsidian Gryphon on Apr 2, 2020 5:20:30 GMT
But when something demonstrably has more holes than swiss cheese and nothing about it makes sense without headcanonning in a tube of super glue, Can I borrow this line? I when I read that and I enjoyed reading your posts. *thumbs up*
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Post by Noxluxe on Apr 2, 2020 5:31:36 GMT
Can I borrow this line? I when I read that and I enjoyed reading your posts. *thumbs up* Borrow away. I guess it's pretty widely applicable here.
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Post by colfoley on Apr 2, 2020 7:34:49 GMT
Why do you insist on doing this? I mean I know we are both intelligent people who I know we've had some fantastic conversations elsewhere on the boards on a number of issues and yet you insist on continuing with rhethoric you know is inflamatory and unproductive. I mean if you are just doing it to get a rise under my skin let me know now so I can permenantly move on. Hm? You mean your gifs of Rey and Obi-Wan shaking their heads at me were somehow an expression of mutual respect? Don't play the victim. I'm not trying to get a rise out of you, I'm trying to get through to you. It's incredibly sad to see someone intelligent determined to misunderstand a subject and lie to themselves in order to support their own feelings about it, and even more annoying to have that person preach those feelings as if they're actually meaningful and everyone else is just too nitpicky looking at the actual reality to enjoy things the way they're 'supposed' to. Moreover, the argument is definitely not unproductive. You've admitted that I've gotten you to see certain scenes in a different light, and I've had a few of my own mistaken assumptions about the movies pointed out. It's not like we aren't getting anywhere.Look, I know it's hard to let go. But when something demonstrably has more holes than swiss cheese and nothing about it makes sense without headcanonning in a tube of super glue, but it nonetheless really appeals to you, the correct statement is "It's objectively a mess, but I like and enjoy it anyway." not "It makes perfect sense because of all the things you can imagine to fix all the holes if you really try, so it's great and you're a killjoy." Having standards doesn't mean that you don't get to enjoy the things that appeal to you in spite of their flaws. That's never been the case. For example: There's no denying that Anakin's journey is very shoddily executed in the Prequel trilogy, but the core story in it speaks to me so much that I still hugely enjoy it and think it's a worthwhile addition to the Star Wars canon. The fact that I was a teenage bum with anger management issues, a superiority complex and a mop of uncombed hair when Revenge of the Sith came out might also have something to do with it. In any case, if you can't stand discussing the whole situation in meta then we can just go back to the movies. You've yet to come up with a defense for Rose crashing into Finn in order to "save" him from sacrificing himself, knowing that it would likely kill them both. Never mind that Poe pulled the fighters back explicitly thinking that they were all going to get picked off before getting to the canon when both Finn and Rose apparently managed to get all the way there without issue. Never mind that Rose somehow got far enough ahead of Finn to execute a ninety-degree turn and come at him from the side just as he was about to fly into it, when the wide-shot immediately before clearly showed him as the only one approaching. Never mind that after she crashes them both they're clearly visible sitting ducks for the AT-ATs who inexplicably don't blow both of them to atoms while she's philosophizing at him or when he somehow drags her the two and a half miles back to the cave in the next couple of minutes. Even aside from all those issues, she almost killed them both just crashing into him, and definitely should have in any realistic scenario. If anything by doing that she's attacking someone she loves in order to protect what she hates, while simultaneously betraying the memory of her sister who heroically died saving the entire Resistance fleet from a dreadnought. How the hell is that well-written? Well congrats you got me to replay to this again but there is a couple of salient points and I think I understand some of the current frustration. 1. Which apparently was the gifs. Now I posted them because A. They were a small attempt at small humor...hell mybudgee and I often trade gifs and barbs to make light of a situaton and sort of poke fun at each other every now and then. B. As my post you quoted indicates...I am tired of dealing with this attitude on your part and instead of going out of my way to say that...for the umpteenth time...or ignore it...for the umpteenth time...I posted gifs which should let my displeasure be known. And I really wanted to use them. 2.Now the bolded paragraph here is the whole reason I am still willing to give you some benefit of the doubt and willing to even reply to you on this issue but it seems oddly at odds with the rest of your commentary to me...and its worth pointing out. This is the way debate should work. We both have our own perspectives on an issue, we talk about it, and bring our evidence for the reasons we believe what we believe to the table. We might agree, we might disagree, but even if we just consider something in a new perspective then...as you point out...progress has been made. I suppose this part could be a matter of 'definitions' not matching again but this just seems at odds against thinking something is as 'demonstrably as holey as swiss cheese'. Because... to me there is no such thing, to me what might be a flaw for you might be something I legitimatley like. As we have come across more then once and if I can convince you to look at a scene in a new light...and vice versa...I don't know how you can justify your own attitudes on the subject that there are such things as factual, demonstrable, flaws which are worth sticking your particular flag in. 3. I have been wondering if its been worth doing a long arse post about flaws in fiction and entertainment that I have been wanting to and I usually decide against it because well no one but us will see it and its silly t go into that much depth for a one time, one off thing... But germaine to the point about the 'Rose scene'...well i have offered defenses of it. I know I have. But, at the end of the day how I view 'flaws in fiction' is more of a spectrum between 'perfectly written' to 'horribly written' and not a light switch. With the term 'well written', for me, is an incredibly vague and neboulous term that can mean anything from "OMG BEST THING EVER THAT WAS AMAZING" to "meh, its good." And the Rose scene falls more to the latter end of the specturm of 'well written' then the former. Because while I have made peace with the scene after my last watch through of the Last Jedi it still is hella cringe, awkward, and you are right that it does have its share of technical issues...more so then I realized so I suppose I might have to start degrading it again. lol. But that is the point, just because I like something or think its 'well written' does not mean I have to think its perfect nor do I think there isn't room for improvement. In fact it seems annoying that while Rian was going through a lot of effort to subvert expectations and actually give us a realistic look at...well a lot of things we've already talked about...this was the one scene where he abandoned showing his work and put 'thematic point he was trying to make' before logic. But yeah, just because I liked the fight between Rey and Kylo Ren on Starkiller base from a writing and visual standpoint does not mean I don't think there could be room for improvement, just because I think the Throne Room scene is one of the best scenes in the Sequels doesen't mean I don't think there could be room for improvement. Just because I love Rey, her character, and think she is superbly well written doesen't mean I don't think there could be room for improvement. Just because I loved Palpatine being included in TROS for a whole host of reasons doesen't mean I don't think there could be room for improvement...in this case specially that they should have hinted at it SOMEHOW in one of the previous movies. I like these choices from a personal standpoint, I think they are various types of 'well written', but at the end of the day most of them could have been better written too.
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Post by Serza on Apr 2, 2020 9:28:20 GMT
Finished season 6 of the CLone Wars...and hence I am all caught up. And MAN it just might have been the strongest season of the show. The end arc with Yoda was especially interesting in a lot of ways. Its actually helping me to come to terms and appreciate a lot of my new understanding of the Force in at least ne way post TROS and...well its been quite a gradgul and begruging seachange at times realizing that I have been wrong about this since I was a wee little lamb but then its not that big of a shift either. From Lucas's quote in the TROS documentary to Yoda's struggles against his dark Yoda version of himself 'recognize me you do not'. I was getting a bit annoyed at first when it seemed the moral message was so clear yet Yoda and Dark Yoda was still getting into what amounted to a Force inspired fist fight. But they turned it around when Yoda recognized that to defeat the darkness within himself was to at least recognize it was there. A very powerful message for the Jedi master and it does match a lot of the arrogance and hubris that I think was definitive of the Jedi Order at the times of the Clone Wars. The other two messages didn't hit nearly as strongly but there was still a lot of set up for what was to come. TCW is some incredible stuff, best content since the classic trilogy IMHO... I have heard mixed things, unfortunately about season 7
Bad Batch arc is pretty damn good.
They changed a scene with nose art of Padme accompanied by some lewd comments by the Clones with a scene where Anakin talks with Padme instead, but IMHO, it adds more to their relationship than the original nose art scene did.
The currently running Ahsoka after leaving Jedi Order arc has two major characters, one of which insists on playing stupid games, the other of which keeps making stupid decisions. They're sisters, so I guess stupid runs in the family. Still, it's OK. Of course, Ahsoka has to bail them out of everything. And the one playing stupid games seems somewhat smart, even if she probably doesn't realize that all she can win are stupid prizes.
Nah, it's fine.
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Post by colfoley on Apr 2, 2020 10:03:57 GMT
Everytime I watch TROS it just gets better and better.
I don't think I mentioned in my review but on top of everything else it's probably the funniest SWs movie.
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Post by Noxluxe on Apr 2, 2020 10:24:23 GMT
Well congrats you got me to replay to this again but there is a couple of salient points and I think I understand some of the current frustration. 1. Which apparently was the gifs. Now I posted them because A. They were a small attempt at small humor...hell mybudgee and I often trade gifs and barbs to make light of a situaton and sort of poke fun at each other every now and then. B. As my post you quoted indicates...I am tired of dealing with this attitude on your part and instead of going out of my way to say that...for the umpteenth time...or ignore it...for the umpteenth time...I posted gifs which should let my displeasure be known. And I really wanted to use them. 2.Now the bolded paragraph here is the whole reason I am still willing to give you some benefit of the doubt and willing to even reply to you on this issue but it seems oddly at odds with the rest of your commentary to me...and its worth pointing out. This is the way debate should work. We both have our own perspectives on an issue, we talk about it, and bring our evidence for the reasons we believe what we believe to the table. We might agree, we might disagree, but even if we just consider something in a new perspective then...as you point out...progress has been made. I suppose this part could be a matter of 'definitions' not matching again but this just seems at odds against thinking something is as 'demonstrably as holey as swiss cheese'. Because... to me there is no such thing, to me what might be a flaw for you might be something I legitimatley like. As we have come across more then once and if I can convince you to look at a scene in a new light...and vice versa...I don't know how you can justify your own attitudes on the subject that there are such things as factual, demonstrable, flaws which are worth sticking your particular flag in. 3. I have been wondering if its been worth doing a long arse post about flaws in fiction and entertainment that I have been wanting to and I usually decide against it because well no one but us will see it and its silly t go into that much depth for a one time, one off thing... But germaine to the point about the 'Rose scene'...well i have offered defenses of it. I know I have. But, at the end of the day how I view 'flaws in fiction' is more of a spectrum between 'perfectly written' to 'horribly written' and not a light switch. With the term 'well written', for me, is an incredibly vague and neboulous term that can mean anything from "OMG BEST THING EVER THAT WAS AMAZING" to "meh, its good." And the Rose scene falls more to the latter end of the specturm of 'well written' then the former. Because while I have made peace with the scene after my last watch through of the Last Jedi it still is hella cringe, awkward, and you are right that it does have its share of technical issues...more so then I realized so I suppose I might have to start degrading it again. lol. But that is the point, just because I like something or think its 'well written' does not mean I have to think its perfect nor do I think there isn't room for improvement. In fact it seems annoying that while Rian was going through a lot of effort to subvert expectations and actually give us a realistic look at...well a lot of things we've already talked about...this was the one scene where he abandoned showing his work and put 'thematic point he was trying to make' before logic. But yeah, just because I liked the fight between Rey and Kylo Ren on Starkiller base from a writing and visual standpoint does not mean I don't think there could be room for improvement, just because I think the Throne Room scene is one of the best scenes in the Sequels doesen't mean I don't think there could be room for improvement. Just because I love Rey, her character, and think she is superbly well written doesen't mean I don't think there could be room for improvement. Just because I loved Palpatine being included in TROS for a whole host of reasons doesen't mean I don't think there could be room for improvement...in this case specially that they should have hinted at it SOMEHOW in one of the previous movies. I like these choices from a personal standpoint, I think they are various types of 'well written', but at the end of the day most of them could have been better written too. Okay, fair enough. Then here's my view: "The writing is good" or "it's well-written" is an attempt at an objective assessment of the quality of the writing. Any attempt to explain "why the writing is good" is an attempt to point out why the writing objectively makes sense and fits together and doesn't undermine the point or emotional impact of the story by being nonsensical or pedestrian. "I like the writing" is a statement that, either regardless of or because of the objective qualities of the writing, it appeals to you personally. It strikes a chord with you, you find something particularly relatable about it, you just aren't that hung up on the details, whatever the reason. Nobody can or should tell you not to like something, because that's all you. But if you make a statement about the writing being good then anybody can disagree with you and point out why that isn't the case, and you're rather obligated to address those concerns if you want your statement or any future statement to carry any weight. And if you refuse to do so but keep stating that the writing is good regardless then people are understandably going to get annoyed with you for essentially stating an unproven fact as a fact over and over again while ignoring critique of it. Similarly, if you say that you like something because of this or that, and others observe that you're basing that liking on a misunderstanding, which you can't defend, then you can't complain about them correcting you because you're the one who shared faulty information. And while it's nobody's business if you decide to ignore the new information and stick with the misunderstanding in your own mind, people might understandably think you pretty silly for doing so, and annoying if you keep positing it as if it should be generally understood. "Good writing" is tight and consistent writing that adds a sense of realism and extra tension to everything that happens because it's believable, and the fact that it's believable enhances and strengthens everything the story tries to do because your brain accepts and immerses itself in it. Movies/shows like the original Lord of the Rings, Breaking Bad, The Wire and Game of Thrones in its heyday were/are powerful because there are few if any inconsistencies in character or plot which elevates the tension in scenes that would be boring or meaningless in works of lesser quality and makes dramatic moments truly meaningful. The message of a well-written plot is subtle and believable because the events that occur to illustrate it happen because the characters are simply being themselves and things result from that organically, underlining something worth thinking about in the human existence. The audience is supposed to ponder and discuss and figure it out themselves, in the process incorporating it into the way they think. "Bad writing" is inconsistent and clumsy writing full of plot holes, impossible logic, characters that don't act like themselves and attempts to tell the audience what and how to think about events they've seen with their own eyes, for fear that they won't get to the right conclusion to make the story work. Writing like that undermines everything that happens in the story because characters keep doing things it doesn't make sense for them to do, things that would logically be unlikely or even impossible to happen just keep inexplicably happening regardless to further the plot, and every attempt at a highly emotional or dramatic moment is undercut by all the obvious shortcuts the writer used to force it to occur, robbing it of all credibility. The message of a badly written plot is conflicting because the story is so chaotic and nonsensical that it's impossible to draw a thorough-line, and the writer is thus forced to spell it out directly to get it across. "Failure is the best teacher", "That's how we're going to win. Saving what we love instead of destroying what we hate", "Hope is like the sun, if you don't believe in it when you don't see it then how will you ever make it through the night?". Even if the message itself might be profound the events that supposedly illustrated it don't make sense and lend it no credence, so the audience mostly just hears it and shrugs, and wonder how the hell you were supposed to get that from the story they were just told and why it should mean anything. Obviously there's a spectrum, but like with anything else that doesn't mean that you can't compare movies relatively objectively. The Last Jedi is rather close to the bottom of the scale, it's just too nonsensical for anything that happens in it to mean anything. The Rise of Skywalker is only marginally better, and the Force Awakens a bit better than that. The Force Awakens more or less compares to Phantom Menace and Attack of the Clones in terms of writing, with Revenge of the Sith outperforming the rest at somewhat over the middle of the scale. The original trilogy is somewhere in the "great" range along with movies like the Harry Potter series with truly solid and character-driven but still occasionally contrived writing, while the previously mentioned movies that I unreservedly called well-written are around the top of the scale. If we put our minds to it we could certainly work out a rough list of popular movies ranked by objective writing quality. It'd take a lot of time and discussion for the one with the most biased view on each one to bend, but it can be done, and just the fact that it'd be difficult isn't a reason to say that there's no objective consensus to be found.
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Post by colfoley on Apr 2, 2020 11:02:07 GMT
Well congrats you got me to replay to this again but there is a couple of salient points and I think I understand some of the current frustration. 1. Which apparently was the gifs. Now I posted them because A. They were a small attempt at small humor...hell mybudgee and I often trade gifs and barbs to make light of a situaton and sort of poke fun at each other every now and then. B. As my post you quoted indicates...I am tired of dealing with this attitude on your part and instead of going out of my way to say that...for the umpteenth time...or ignore it...for the umpteenth time...I posted gifs which should let my displeasure be known. And I really wanted to use them. 2.Now the bolded paragraph here is the whole reason I am still willing to give you some benefit of the doubt and willing to even reply to you on this issue but it seems oddly at odds with the rest of your commentary to me...and its worth pointing out. This is the way debate should work. We both have our own perspectives on an issue, we talk about it, and bring our evidence for the reasons we believe what we believe to the table. We might agree, we might disagree, but even if we just consider something in a new perspective then...as you point out...progress has been made. I suppose this part could be a matter of 'definitions' not matching again but this just seems at odds against thinking something is as 'demonstrably as holey as swiss cheese'. Because... to me there is no such thing, to me what might be a flaw for you might be something I legitimatley like. As we have come across more then once and if I can convince you to look at a scene in a new light...and vice versa...I don't know how you can justify your own attitudes on the subject that there are such things as factual, demonstrable, flaws which are worth sticking your particular flag in. 3. I have been wondering if its been worth doing a long arse post about flaws in fiction and entertainment that I have been wanting to and I usually decide against it because well no one but us will see it and its silly t go into that much depth for a one time, one off thing... But germaine to the point about the 'Rose scene'...well i have offered defenses of it. I know I have. But, at the end of the day how I view 'flaws in fiction' is more of a spectrum between 'perfectly written' to 'horribly written' and not a light switch. With the term 'well written', for me, is an incredibly vague and neboulous term that can mean anything from "OMG BEST THING EVER THAT WAS AMAZING" to "meh, its good." And the Rose scene falls more to the latter end of the specturm of 'well written' then the former. Because while I have made peace with the scene after my last watch through of the Last Jedi it still is hella cringe, awkward, and you are right that it does have its share of technical issues...more so then I realized so I suppose I might have to start degrading it again. lol. But that is the point, just because I like something or think its 'well written' does not mean I have to think its perfect nor do I think there isn't room for improvement. In fact it seems annoying that while Rian was going through a lot of effort to subvert expectations and actually give us a realistic look at...well a lot of things we've already talked about...this was the one scene where he abandoned showing his work and put 'thematic point he was trying to make' before logic. But yeah, just because I liked the fight between Rey and Kylo Ren on Starkiller base from a writing and visual standpoint does not mean I don't think there could be room for improvement, just because I think the Throne Room scene is one of the best scenes in the Sequels doesen't mean I don't think there could be room for improvement. Just because I love Rey, her character, and think she is superbly well written doesen't mean I don't think there could be room for improvement. Just because I loved Palpatine being included in TROS for a whole host of reasons doesen't mean I don't think there could be room for improvement...in this case specially that they should have hinted at it SOMEHOW in one of the previous movies. I like these choices from a personal standpoint, I think they are various types of 'well written', but at the end of the day most of them could have been better written too. Okay, fair enough. Then here's my view: "The writing is good" or "it's well-written" is an attempt at an objective assessment of the quality of the writing. Any attempt to explain "why the writing is good" is an attempt to point out why the writing objectively makes sense and fits together and doesn't undermine the point or emotional impact of the story by being nonsensical or pedestrian. "I like the writing" is a statement that, either regardless of or because of the objective qualities of the writing, it appeals to you personally. It strikes a chord with you, you find something particularly relatable about it, you just aren't that hung up on the details, whatever the reason. Nobody can or should tell you not to like something, because that's all you. But if you make a statement about the writing being good then anybody can disagree with you and point out why that isn't the case, and you're rather obligated to address those concerns if you want your statement or any future statement to carry any weight. And if you refuse to do so but keep stating that the writing is good regardless then people are understandably going to get annoyed with you for essentially stating an unproven fact as a fact over and over again while ignoring critique of it. Similarly, if you say that you like something because of this or that, and others observe that you're basing that liking on a misunderstanding, which you can't defend, then you can't complain about them correcting you because you're the one who shared faulty information. And while it's nobody's business if you decide to ignore the new information and stick with the misunderstanding in your own mind, people might understandably think you pretty silly for doing so, and annoying if you keep positing it as if it should be generally understood. "Good writing" is tight and consistent writing that adds a sense of realism and extra tension to everything that happens because it's believable, and the fact that it's believable enhances and strengthens everything the story tries to do because your brain accepts and immerses itself in it. Movies/shows like the original Lord of the Rings, Breaking Bad, The Wire and Game of Thrones in its heyday were/are powerful because there are few if any inconsistencies in character or plot which elevates the tension in scenes that would be boring or meaningless in works of lesser quality and makes dramatic moments truly meaningful. The message of a well-written plot is subtle and believable because the events that occur to illustrate it happen because the characters are simply being themselves and things result from that organically, underlining something worth thinking about in the human existence. The audience is supposed to ponder and discuss and figure it out themselves, in the process incorporating it into the way they think. "Bad writing" is inconsistent and clumsy writing full of plot holes, impossible logic, characters that don't act like themselves and attempts to tell the audience what and how to think about events they've seen with their own eyes, for fear that they won't get to the right conclusion to make the story work. Writing like that undermines everything that happens in the story because characters keep doing things it doesn't make sense for them to do, things that would logically be unlikely or even impossible to happen just keep inexplicably happening regardless to further the plot, and every attempt at a highly emotional or dramatic moment is undercut by all the obvious shortcuts the writer used to force it to occur, robbing it of all credibility. The message of a badly written plot is conflicting because the story is so chaotic and nonsensical that it's impossible to draw a thorough-line, and the writer is thus forced to spell it out directly to get it across. "Failure is the best teacher", "That's how we're going to win. Saving what we love instead of destroying what we hate", "Hope is like the sun, if you don't believe in it when you don't see it then how will you ever make it through the night?". Even if the message itself might be profound the events that supposedly illustrated it don't make sense and lend it no credence, so the audience mostly just hears it and shrugs, and wonder how the hell you were supposed to get that from the story they were just told and why it should mean anything. Obviously there's a spectrum, but like with anything else that doesn't mean that you can't compare movies relatively objectively. The Last Jedi is rather close to the bottom of the scale, it's just too nonsensical for anything that happens in it to mean anything. The Rise of Skywalker is only marginally better, and the Force Awakens a bit better than that. The Force Awakens more or less compares to Phantom Menace and Attack of the Clones in terms of writing, with Revenge of the Sith outperforming the rest at somewhat over the middle of the scale. The original trilogy is somewhere in the "great" range along with movies like the Harry Potter series with truly solid and character-driven but still occasionally contrived writing, while the previously mentioned movies that I unreservedly called well-written are around the top of the scale. If we put our minds to it we could certainly work out a rough list of popular movies ranked by objective writing quality. It'd take a lot of time and discussion for the one with the most biased view on each one to bend, but it can be done, and just the fact that it'd be difficult isn't a reason to say that there's no objective consensus to be found. aha! Now I think we're getting somewhere. See when I look at either thing for me I recognize it as my opinion. I can personally like something or hate something as being seperate from any commentary on the strength of its writing. Whereas I can think something is well written or not does not necessarily relate to whether I like it. This comes up when I play games a lot...but in both cases I treat it as my opinion on either spectrum. Of course the trick is to not let certain secondary biases effect ones opinions but then that's probably impossible for me to know exactly where the line is on that. When it comes to themes (or really any writing) I know it's good advice to show and not tell...but it's hard to do that ALL the time. Sometimes you need to tell as long as the work is shown...as is the case when the Resistance, First Order, and Luke spend the majority of the movie failing...helps set up Yoda's thematic message. To equate objectivity with consensus...especially in fiction...just seems...silly. To your point about coming up with a list of movies i know one movie that will universally be on everybody's lists pretty much is the Godfather. Yet I despise it. Hell I suppose I can even recognize it's well written but soooooo boring...imo.
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Post by Noxluxe on Apr 2, 2020 12:49:56 GMT
aha! Now I think we're getting somewhere. See when I look at either thing for me I recognize it as my opinion. I can personally like something or hate something as being seperate from any commentary on the strength of its writing. Whereas I can think something is well written or not does not necessarily relate to whether I like it. This comes up when I play games a lot...but in both cases I treat it as my opinion on either spectrum. Of course the trick is to not let certain secondary biases effect ones opinions but then that's probably impossible for me to know exactly where the line is on that. When it comes to themes (or really any writing) I know it's good advice to show and not tell...but it's hard to do that ALL the time. Sometimes you need to tell as long as the work is shown...as is the case when the Resistance, First Order, and Luke spend the majority of the movie failing...helps set up Yoda's thematic message. To equate objectivity with consensus...especially in fiction...just seems...silly. To your point about coming up with a list of movies i know one movie that will universally be on everybody's lists pretty much is the Godfather. Yet I despise it. Hell I suppose I can even recognize it's well written but soooooo boring...imo. What you describe is doing the opposite, using your subjective opinion and your objective assessment interchangeably and dismissing both as "all just your opinion". That's really confusing if you're talking to someone who actually wants to discuss the merits of a work and judge it as objectively as possible, without necessarily caring that you like things about it they don't. Maybe, but the thing is that it's not the writer's job to interpret their own work for the audience, except in very young children's stories. The writer writes the story and the audience decides exactly what the message is, what it says about being human that might be useful to them. For example "giving yourself over entirely to either your instincts or to dogmatic systems leaves you very open to manipulation, which can have serious consequences for other people" could easily be considered the message of the prequel trilogy, even though nothing of the sort is ever spoken aloud and I've never heard Lucas claim that that was specifically what he set out to say when he wrote it. Because even stories without any conscious attempt to prove a point have messages that can be gleaned. All stories do. But when the writer himself staples the story with a message and writes it specifically to support that message then it can lose all credibility. Things like Luke being uncharacteristically stupid, irrational, careless, irresponsible and self-destructive without plausible build-up or explanation just makes it feel like author wanted to say "failure is the best teacher" and the story and characters themselves were more of an afterthought. Nobody is equating objectivity with consensus. But if two people with wildly different opinions each put those feelings aside and agree on a specific analysis, wouldn't you say that that analysis is rather more likely to be the objective interpretation? It's been years and years since I last saw The Godfather, so I can't speak to that, but if you begrudgingly agree that it should be ranked highly on its writing even though you find it boring then it sounds like you know that good and bad writing can be objectively agreed upon when people are honest about them.
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Post by Iakus on Apr 2, 2020 18:20:29 GMT
Here's a thought exercise:
How would we have made the Disney Wars trilogy BETTER?
I'm not talking a complete do-over. But given the material presented, what could have been done to make it more palatable.
Just as an example, in TFA, when Finn and Rey first meet, I would have had Finn actually step in and help Rey against the thugs trying to steal BB-8. Not to make Rey seem less Sue-ish (though that would certainly help) but to demonstrate Finn as a competent fighter in his own right, and with a sense of honor.
Then the First Order attacks, and the Millennium Falcon swoops out of the sky and saves them (performing much of the dogfighting we saw I the movie, but with Han and Chewie responsible for most of it.
Han seems to recognize Rey. He gives his "It's true. All of it" but with echoes of Ben Kenobi's talk about Vader: Han didn't run out on his family, he and Leia have been searching for Ben for years, and was following up on a lead he was at Jakku. He tells them that Ben was a prisoner of a First Order bigshot named Kylo Ren, who leads the First Order's Knights of Ren (all true, "from a certain point of view"). The movie proceeds with them trying to find Ben while the First Order is trying to find them. With the revelation that Ben and Kylo are the same person only revealed when Han confronts him on Stakiller base.
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Post by mybudgee on Apr 2, 2020 19:28:55 GMT
ven aside from all those issues, she almost killed them both just crashing into him, and definitely should have in any realistic scenario. If anything by doing that she's attacking someone she loves in order to protect what she hates, while simultaneously betraying the memory of her sister who heroically died saving the entire Resistance fleet from a dreadnought. How the hell is that well-written? Well congrats you got me to replay to this again but there is a couple of salient points and I think I understand some of the current frustration. 1. Which apparently was the gifs. Now I posted them because A. They were a small attempt at small humor... hell mybudgee and I often trade gifs and barbs to make light of a situaton and sort of poke fun at each other every now and then For the record, I enjoy debating & verbally sparring with you good sir
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Post by colfoley on Apr 2, 2020 19:45:22 GMT
Here's a thought exercise: How would we have made the Disney Wars trilogy BETTER? I'm not talking a complete do-over. But given the material presented, what could have been done to make it more palatable. Just as an example, in TFA, when Finn and Rey first meet, I would have had Finn actually step in and help Rey against the thugs trying to steal BB-8. Not to make Rey seem less Sue-ish (though that would certainly help) but to demonstrate Finn as a competent fighter in his own right, and with a sense of honor. Then the First Order attacks, and the Millennium Falcon swoops out of the sky and saves them (performing much of the dogfighting we saw I the movie, but with Han and Chewie responsible for most of it. Han seems to recognize Rey. He gives his "It's true. All of it" but with echoes of Ben Kenobi's talk about Vader: Han didn't run out on his family, he and Leia have been searching for Ben for years, and was following up on a lead he was at Jakku. He tells them that Ben was a prisoner of a First Order bigshot named Kylo Ren, who leads the First Order's Knights of Ren (all true, "from a certain point of view"). The movie proceeds with them trying to find Ben while the First Order is trying to find them. With the revelation that Ben and Kylo are the same person only revealed when Han confronts him on Stakiller base. would nuking SK base from orbit just to be sure count or is that too big? Lol. So yeah that. I would've gotten rid of SK base and included a scene instead where Phasma leads a commando raid on the Senate and blows it to hell with a bomb. Also would've had her duel Finn instead of TR8R somehow. I would've made Holdo more...reasonable? Have her maybe actually spell out to Poe that she feared there was a spy in their ranks. Poe still would've been frustrated and send Finn and Rose off to Canto Bight. Might've made Poe look worse but on the other hand it would've highlighted his flaw and set up a better contrast for Crait. Even though I loved the final confrontation in 9 it still relied on 'villain gloats, gets rekt' trope. So would've had Palpatine keep his damn mouth shut,Rey would've killed him, he possessed her...and the final confrontation would've taken place in her mind. Ben would've defeated the Knights of Ren somehow and just as she is about to give in she senses him and begins rallying, the Jedi would show up lending their support considering she was trying to throw off her Sith lineage...and Ben Ben doesen't have to die! Two annoying tropes for the price of one!
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Post by Iakus on Apr 2, 2020 20:19:30 GMT
Here's a thought exercise: How would we have made the Disney Wars trilogy BETTER? I'm not talking a complete do-over. But given the material presented, what could have been done to make it more palatable. Just as an example, in TFA, when Finn and Rey first meet, I would have had Finn actually step in and help Rey against the thugs trying to steal BB-8. Not to make Rey seem less Sue-ish (though that would certainly help) but to demonstrate Finn as a competent fighter in his own right, and with a sense of honor. Then the First Order attacks, and the Millennium Falcon swoops out of the sky and saves them (performing much of the dogfighting we saw I the movie, but with Han and Chewie responsible for most of it. Han seems to recognize Rey. He gives his "It's true. All of it" but with echoes of Ben Kenobi's talk about Vader: Han didn't run out on his family, he and Leia have been searching for Ben for years, and was following up on a lead he was at Jakku. He tells them that Ben was a prisoner of a First Order bigshot named Kylo Ren, who leads the First Order's Knights of Ren (all true, "from a certain point of view"). The movie proceeds with them trying to find Ben while the First Order is trying to find them. With the revelation that Ben and Kylo are the same person only revealed when Han confronts him on Stakiller base. would nuking SK base from orbit just to be sure count or is that too big? Lol. So yeah that. I would've gotten rid of SK base and included a scene instead where Phasma leads a commando raid on the Senate and blows it to hell with a bomb. Also would've had her duel Finn instead of TR8R somehow. I would've made Holdo more...reasonable? Have her maybe actually spell out to Poe that she feared there was a spy in their ranks. Poe still would've been frustrated and send Finn and Rose off to Canto Bight. Might've made Poe look worse but on the other hand it would've highlighted his flaw and set up a better contrast for Crait. Even though I loved the final confrontation in 9 it still relied on 'villain gloats, gets rekt' trope. So would've had Palpatine keep his damn mouth shut,Rey would've killed him, he possessed her...and the final confrontation would've taken place in her mind. Ben would've defeated the Knights of Ren somehow and just as she is about to give in she senses him and begins rallying, the Jedi would show up lending their support considering she was trying to throw off her Sith lineage...and Ben Ben doesen't have to die! Two annoying tropes for the price of one!Hokey as it sounds, I would have had it revealed that Rey is a Skywalker, not a Palpatine. Either a child of Luke's or a younger child of Leia and Han, hidden away from Ben when he fell to the Dark Side (thus the "what girl?" from TFA actually makes sense). In fact, toss that whole "Palpatine's alive" garbage out altogether. Snoke was the villain from the start. Perhaps as a failed clone of Palpatine, or a secret disciple of his, I dunno. At any rate, Luke would still be alive as f that point, and sacrifice himself to save her and/or redeem Ben. Forget that "all the Jedi" nonsense. It would have been Luke, Leia, and Anakin's Force Ghosts assisting Ben and Rey. Three generations of Skywalker coming together to end the Empire and Palpatine's legacy once and for all. A scene reminiscent of this: Heck seeing the Anakin Redeemed Force Ghost might have been a powerful sign for Ben to see.
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Post by colfoley on Apr 2, 2020 20:31:51 GMT
would nuking SK base from orbit just to be sure count or is that too big? Lol. So yeah that. I would've gotten rid of SK base and included a scene instead where Phasma leads a commando raid on the Senate and blows it to hell with a bomb. Also would've had her duel Finn instead of TR8R somehow. I would've made Holdo more...reasonable? Have her maybe actually spell out to Poe that she feared there was a spy in their ranks. Poe still would've been frustrated and send Finn and Rose off to Canto Bight. Might've made Poe look worse but on the other hand it would've highlighted his flaw and set up a better contrast for Crait. Even though I loved the final confrontation in 9 it still relied on 'villain gloats, gets rekt' trope. So would've had Palpatine keep his damn mouth shut,Rey would've killed him, he possessed her...and the final confrontation would've taken place in her mind. Ben would've defeated the Knights of Ren somehow and just as she is about to give in she senses him and begins rallying, the Jedi would show up lending their support considering she was trying to throw off her Sith lineage...and Ben Ben doesen't have to die! Two annoying tropes for the price of one!Hokey as it sounds, I would have had it revealed that Rey is a Skywalker, not a Palpatine. Either a child of Luke's or a younger child of Leia and Han, hidden away from Ben when he fell to the Dark Side (thus the "what girl?" from TFA actually makes sense). In fact, toss that whole "Palpatine's alive" garbage out altogether. Snoke was the villain from the start. Perhaps as a failed clone of Palpatine, or a secret disciple of his, I dunno. At any rate, Luke would still be alive as f that point, and sacrifice himself to save her and/or redeem Ben. Forget that "all the Jedi" nonsense. It would have been Luke, Leia, and Anakin's Force Ghosts assisting Ben and Rey. Three generations of Skywalker coming together to end the Empire and Palpatine's legacy once and for all. A scene reminiscent of this: Heck seeing the Anakin Redeemed Force Ghost might have been a powerful sign for Ben to see. Admittedly I do like the bit about them ending 'Palpatine's legacy' given how much of the sequels was about legacy. But I just don't support her being a Skywalker or a Solo...naturally. I just can't see either side abandoning their daughter on Jakku..that would probably make me hate TLJ luke as much as you do. The only way around that would've been had they thought she died with the rest at the Jedi temple and Kylo took her there, which would probably go farther to explain the dyad and why Kylo was so freaked out by 'the girl's on Jakku. Even then I like the thematic message of her being a Palp. Your legacy and bloodline does not define you, you define you.
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Post by mybudgee on Apr 2, 2020 20:40:50 GMT
Hokey as it sounds, I would have had it revealed that Rey is a Skywalker, not a Palpatine Heck seeing the Anakin Redeemed Force Ghost might have been a powerful sign for Ben to see. Even then I like the thematic message of her being a Palp. Your legacy and bloodline does not define you, you define you.
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Post by Iakus on Apr 3, 2020 0:20:35 GMT
Hokey as it sounds, I would have had it revealed that Rey is a Skywalker, not a Palpatine. Either a child of Luke's or a younger child of Leia and Han, hidden away from Ben when he fell to the Dark Side (thus the "what girl?" from TFA actually makes sense). In fact, toss that whole "Palpatine's alive" garbage out altogether. Snoke was the villain from the start. Perhaps as a failed clone of Palpatine, or a secret disciple of his, I dunno. At any rate, Luke would still be alive as f that point, and sacrifice himself to save her and/or redeem Ben. Forget that "all the Jedi" nonsense. It would have been Luke, Leia, and Anakin's Force Ghosts assisting Ben and Rey. Three generations of Skywalker coming together to end the Empire and Palpatine's legacy once and for all. A scene reminiscent of this: Heck seeing the Anakin Redeemed Force Ghost might have been a powerful sign for Ben to see. Admittedly I do like the bit about them ending 'Palpatine's legacy' given how much of the sequels was about legacy. But I just don't support her being a Skywalker or a Solo...naturally. I just can't see either side abandoning their daughter on Jakku..that would probably make me hate TLJ luke as much as you do. The only way around that would've been had they thought she died with the rest at the Jedi temple and Kylo took her there, which would probably go farther to explain the dyad and why Kylo was so freaked out by 'the girl's on Jakku. Even then I like the thematic message of her being a Palp. Your legacy and bloodline does not define you, you define you. Or she HAD a guardian on Jakku, and something happened to him or her. Heck Max von Sydow could have been her guardian. At least then it would have made sense to give such a big name actor such a tiny role. And why he'd have a map to Luke's location. As for legacy, sure you define you, but this is the SKYWALKER saga. ANd we've seen again and again that while the Force binds the galaxy together, Force bonds tend to be particularly strong among familial lines. Rey and Ben's connection would be much more understandable is they were blood relatives.
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Post by colfoley on Apr 3, 2020 1:10:55 GMT
Admittedly I do like the bit about them ending 'Palpatine's legacy' given how much of the sequels was about legacy. But I just don't support her being a Skywalker or a Solo...naturally. I just can't see either side abandoning their daughter on Jakku..that would probably make me hate TLJ luke as much as you do. The only way around that would've been had they thought she died with the rest at the Jedi temple and Kylo took her there, which would probably go farther to explain the dyad and why Kylo was so freaked out by 'the girl's on Jakku. Even then I like the thematic message of her being a Palp. Your legacy and bloodline does not define you, you define you. Or she HAD a guardian on Jakku, and something happened to him or her. Heck Max von Sydow could have been her guardian. At least then it would have made sense to give such a big name actor such a tiny role. And why he'd have a map to Luke's location. As for legacy, sure you define you, but this is the SKYWALKER saga. ANd we've seen again and again that while the Force binds the galaxy together, Force bonds tend to be particularly strong among familial lines. Rey and Ben's connection would be much more understandable is they were blood relatives. That's a super fair point about Lor San Tekka honestly with some of my reconsiderations on the Force lately I have been doing a lot of musing about his character in the background. Still I got the implication from her force vision in VII that whoever left her there left her in Unkarr's care. Hence the whole "Quiet Girl" thing...and I guess in this version this would've made Lor San Tekka Dumbledore watching over Rey from a distance (Remember my last!), but it just never set well the idea of her family leaving her in the care of...him. Unkarr. Now 9 kind of had this problem too but it was mitigated just the teensiest bit by the implication that they had no real choice but to leave her there because they were in a hurry...and were obviously hoping to come back.
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Post by colfoley on Apr 3, 2020 7:29:24 GMT
In other news I bought the Rise of Skywaker novelization. My first ever movie novelization. Can't wait to tear into the thing.
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Post by mybudgee on Apr 3, 2020 17:36:01 GMT
In other news I bought the Rise of Skywaker novelization. My first ever movie novelization. Can't wait to tear into the thing. On a serious note, it seems the rumors are strong that Rosario Dawson is indeed playing Ahsoka in season 2 of the Mando, as well as Michael Biehn playing a "character from the saga films"
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Post by Serza on Apr 3, 2020 23:07:56 GMT
Speaking of Ahsoka.
The clip of Trace doing something incredibly stupid is actually her doing something risky as fuck that only had some very basic thought put into it... and clearly the Force being with her and her taking a chance. So in context, it isn't retarded, just... holy shit does she have faith in herself for even trying that. Someone without plot armor would probably die doing it.
Also, Ahsoka has that scene of running past a Mando. There are three women: Bo Katan, Ursa Wren and one more I do not recognize. This actually makes sense. Clearly, these three are Nite Owls. Who are Mandos on the side of the Republic. As Sabine Wren has a Nite Owls helmet, this just shows where she got that one from. And obviously, you can't go Mando good guys in the Clone Wars without Bo Katan, can you.
With Ahsoka supposedly coming in Haar Mando'ad season 2, I'm wondering if, perhaps, some big names are also making a come back. Like, Bo Katan or Sabine in live action?
Like it or not, Sabine follows the Resol'nare pretty much to the letter in Rebels. That makes her a true Mando.
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Post by Energizer Bunny 211 on Apr 4, 2020 1:59:48 GMT
(My girl but she don't know it) Rosario Dawson is indeed playing Ahsoka in season 2 of the Mandolorian?! What???? OKay, now I'm seriously reconsidering renewing my subscription to Disney Plus!
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Post by mybudgee on Apr 4, 2020 2:40:21 GMT
(My girl but she don't know it) Rosario Dawson is indeed playing Ahsoka in season 2 of the Mandolorian?! What???? OKay, now I'm seriously reconsidering renewing my subscription to Disney Plus! It seems to be the case www.imdb.com/name/nm0206257/?ref_=nv_sr_srsg_0
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Post by Serza on Apr 4, 2020 12:20:12 GMT
My greatest fear is the voice not matching up. As for looking like Ahsoka, make-up artists can work genuine magic these days, but the voice...
We'll see, maybe it will fit an Ahsoka even older than around the fall of the Empire. I hope so. Either way, AHSOKA.
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Post by Energizer Bunny 211 on Apr 4, 2020 14:32:16 GMT
"My greatest fear is the voice not matching up"- Serza (posted above)
That can happen at times, just look to the character of Iorek in The Golden Compass movie (voiced really amazingly by Sir Ian McKellen) and the TV series (voiced by someone else, some guy named Joe Tandeberg). I really enjoyed the TV series, but the one thing that really bothered me was Iorek's voice. I just did not like it, it didn't seem to fit. Ian McKellen (with his amazing accent and classical training) gave the character I very stately sound, but it was also gentle and kind, especially where the character of Lara was concerned. He sounded like a King of the Bears, but he was also kind and gentle. His voice just had a ring to it that fit the character.
In cotrast, the TV series the voice always sounded angry and cruel....almost had an evil quality to it, I was always expecting the character to turn evil; he had no affection, no gentleness in his voice for the character of Lara.
And more to the point, I have always enjoyed Ashley Eckstein's voice work in every role she's done. She has played the character of Ashoka Tano since her introduction in The Clone Wars movie. It's going to be hard to listen to the character and hear the character without Ashley Eckstein especially know that 'that's not her voice, it's not even close. something just doesn't sound right but of course it's not even her in person, it's a different actor because this isnt simply voice work , this is live action."
But Rosario Dawson has also done some really great voice work, too, and who knows? Maybe she'll nail the role and we won't even think about it. We'll just have to wait and see, or least find out more details.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Apr 4, 2020 17:18:36 GMT
They could also always have Ashley still do the voice while Rosario plays the body. They did that with Maul in the Solo movie where the actor who played him in TPM was the body but the actor who played him in TCW/Rebels did the voice.
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