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Post by rewindbutton on Jul 1, 2020 6:38:08 GMT
Finnnaalllllllllllly finished Rebels today [snip] Rebels will always be a series of missed opportunities for me. It started weak and uninteresting, and obviously suffered from budget issues. Thankfully it got better and at times it offered some of the best Star Wars moments since Clone Wars. Ezra's and Thrawn's removal from the events should not really surprise you. If you want to take out the hero of story, there's only so many ways to do it. About the missed opportunities; They should have focused more on the padawan-master relationship, as it's an underused theme in SW, I find. And as you pointed out, Hera and Kanan got a terrible treatment. They should have been a full on couple: That would have raised the stakes in their actions and given Kanan a more troubling path to becoming a jedi knight. It would have given Hera more character as well. Agent Kallus -A GL name if there ever was- was ok, but again, more screen time needed to be better. Chopper and Zeb could have been written off entirely, but that's just me. Like I said, Rebels had it's moments, but was lackluster in general. When it was good, it was really good. But usually just... not. BTW, sorry about the short version, I seem to be strapped for time these days.
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Post by colfoley on Jul 1, 2020 7:15:30 GMT
Finnnaalllllllllllly finished Rebels today [snip] Rebels will always be a series of missed opportunities for me. It started weak and uninteresting, and obviously suffered from budget issues. Thankfully it got better and at times it offered some of the best Star Wars moments since Clone Wars. Ezra's and Thrawn's removal from the events should not really surprise you. If you want to take out the hero of story, there's only so many ways to do it. About the missed opportunities; They should have focused more on the padawan-master relationship, as it's an underused theme in SW, I find. And as you pointed out, Hera and Kanan got a terrible treatment. They should have been a full on couple: That would have raised the stakes in their actions and given Kanan a more troubling path to becoming a jedi knight. It would have given Hera more character as well. Agent Kallus -A GL name if there ever was- was ok, but again, more screen time needed to be better. Chopper and Zeb could have been written off entirely, but that's just me. Like I said, Rebels had it's moments, but was lackluster in general. When it was good, it was really good. But usually just... not. BTW, sorry about the short version, I seem to be strapped for time these days. I suppose at the end of the day while the best of the Clone Wars was better then Rebels the worse of the Clone Wars was WAY worse then Rebels. And well about your criticisms. I didn't say Kanan and Hera was terrible...just that it was odd that they were almost acting like a couple in like the first two episodes and then their relationship was almost forgotten entirely until his last two...oh and she ends up pregnant. And while the Ezra-Kanan relationship probably could have used more attention but on the other hand it probably is the one that has been given the most attention, at least of SWs onscreen adaptations.
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Post by colfoley on Jul 1, 2020 8:28:00 GMT
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by cypherj on Jul 1, 2020 11:07:19 GMT
The galaxy wasn't sliding to darkness, it was at war. The Jedi said multiple times, they were peacekeepers and not soldiers. That if war broke out there were not enough Jedi to keep peace. So when war broke out and Palpatine created the clone army with Dooku, they led the soldiers into battle. They did it to end a war, not enforce their will, or mold the galaxy into their vision. They weren't just going to sit around and watch the galaxy burn in war. I mean, aside from Luke, the Jedi usually care. They also didn't just chose to be more involved in politics, they were forced to. If the war hadn't broken out they would have never gotten involved in the politics at all. They were pretty much manipulated into everything because they trusted in the laws and government, and had no desire to be involved in politics or running things from the Jedi temple. Then by the time they started noticing things being off about the government, and tried to stop being detached from it, it was too late. Too much stuff was in motion. People act like they one day up and decided to involve themselves in the politics because they wanted more power or something. I never said they weren't manipulated but the mere fact that they WERE manipulated suggests they had weaknesses that Palpatine was able to exploit: -In Revenge of the Sith Obi-Wan Kenobi chastised Anakin when the latter expressed concern in his mission to spy on the chancellor...itself a sketc mission in the first place...he did so by pointing out 'Anakin our alleigance is not to the Chancellor but to the Senate'...erm how about your allegiance be to the Will of the Force like it should be? -Both Palpatine and Yoda commented on how arrogant the Jedi had become...though in the latter's case he was not exactly immune from that. -During the final arc of the Clone Wars, before they brought the show back for one final season, Yoda's arc in it was to deal with his own internal darkness and corruption and the arrogance of him denying the internal struggle within himself rather then just addressing it. -And while the Jedi were certainly supposed to be peacekeepers, not soldiers, they became Generals in the war and led troops into battle representing the Galactic Republic, not the Will of the Force. This point was pointed out in the Clone Wars and the increduity of it by many in the Order, but usually by Ahsoka...which is why she left the Order in the firstplace. -And while this is mostly a ledgends thing...the Jedi haven't always been that eager to start fighting in interstellar wars. The Clone Wars, Yuuzhan Vong conflict, and Mandalorian Wars all had the Jedi...to varying degrees go...'uh maybe getting involved in this conflict is a bad thing and we should be cautious'...which each one of those conflicts had various numbers of Jedi Knights fall to the dark side as an active result of the conflict. - And in general while the Order had some great ideals...they weren't practicing anything of what they preached during the Clone Wars. All this leads me to conclude that the Jedi,while nominally the 'good guys' (at least better then the Sith) they were still corrupted from their ideal. In so much that they stopped focusing on their primary objectives of maintaining balance in the Force, and the peace and justice of the galaxy, and become a special investigative division of the Republic subject to their will...and eventually commanders and soldiers duringthe Clone Wars. Combined with their other philosophical and emotional blindness at the time it is telling that the Force's Chosen One started off with his efforts to balance the Force by cutting them down to size. Dude, you went completely off topic. You said "The 'Jedi' saw the galaxy sliding to darkness so they 'created' and much more accuratley utilized a clone army to try and enforce their will of what balance was on the rest of the galaxy." Which isn't true. They neither created the clone, nor did they try and use it force their will or their principles on the galaxy. They got involved to try and end a galactic war. They got involved in the politics because they saw that the government had gone from a Republic to Dictatorship. You left left out the part of Obi-Wan's quote where he says their allegiance is to democracy. The Chancellor had taken absolute power, and stayed in office way past his allowed term. After Obi-Wan killed Grevious their first action was to make sure that power was returned to the Senate so that it would be a democracy again, the war could be over, and they could get back to their own business of just being peacekeepers. If the Jedi were uitlizing the clone army to try and enforce their will, they would have been the ones trying to keep the war going as long as possible. But they were trying to end it as soon as possible because what you said was not their goal. If you want to talk about to toll all this had on the Jedi, which is pretty much what your entire post was about. That is a completely different discussion.
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Post by mybudgee on Jul 1, 2020 19:57:25 GMT
I love Quinlan Vos Here's hoping the geniuses at Lucasfilm re-canonize him a la Thrawn He is canon He's part of the same trashy romance novel that completed the ruination of Asajj So... Rejoice? I said "a la Thrawn" not Chris Grey
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jul 1, 2020 21:31:29 GMT
I love Quinlan Vos Here's hoping the geniuses at Lucasfilm re-canonize him a la Thrawn Isn't he? He’s in The Clone Wars series.
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Post by colfoley on Jul 1, 2020 23:13:08 GMT
I never said they weren't manipulated but the mere fact that they WERE manipulated suggests they had weaknesses that Palpatine was able to exploit: -In Revenge of the Sith Obi-Wan Kenobi chastised Anakin when the latter expressed concern in his mission to spy on the chancellor...itself a sketc mission in the first place...he did so by pointing out 'Anakin our alleigance is not to the Chancellor but to the Senate'...erm how about your allegiance be to the Will of the Force like it should be? -Both Palpatine and Yoda commented on how arrogant the Jedi had become...though in the latter's case he was not exactly immune from that. -During the final arc of the Clone Wars, before they brought the show back for one final season, Yoda's arc in it was to deal with his own internal darkness and corruption and the arrogance of him denying the internal struggle within himself rather then just addressing it. -And while the Jedi were certainly supposed to be peacekeepers, not soldiers, they became Generals in the war and led troops into battle representing the Galactic Republic, not the Will of the Force. This point was pointed out in the Clone Wars and the increduity of it by many in the Order, but usually by Ahsoka...which is why she left the Order in the firstplace. -And while this is mostly a ledgends thing...the Jedi haven't always been that eager to start fighting in interstellar wars. The Clone Wars, Yuuzhan Vong conflict, and Mandalorian Wars all had the Jedi...to varying degrees go...'uh maybe getting involved in this conflict is a bad thing and we should be cautious'...which each one of those conflicts had various numbers of Jedi Knights fall to the dark side as an active result of the conflict. - And in general while the Order had some great ideals...they weren't practicing anything of what they preached during the Clone Wars. All this leads me to conclude that the Jedi,while nominally the 'good guys' (at least better then the Sith) they were still corrupted from their ideal. In so much that they stopped focusing on their primary objectives of maintaining balance in the Force, and the peace and justice of the galaxy, and become a special investigative division of the Republic subject to their will...and eventually commanders and soldiers duringthe Clone Wars. Combined with their other philosophical and emotional blindness at the time it is telling that the Force's Chosen One started off with his efforts to balance the Force by cutting them down to size. Dude, you went completely off topic. You said "The 'Jedi' saw the galaxy sliding to darkness so they 'created' and much more accuratley utilized a clone army to try and enforce their will of what balance was on the rest of the galaxy." Which isn't true. They neither created the clone, nor did they try and use it force their will or their principles on the galaxy. They got involved to try and end a galactic war. They got involved in the politics because they saw that the government had gone from a Republic to Dictatorship. You left left out the part of Obi-Wan's quote where he says their allegiance is to democracy. The Chancellor had taken absolute power, and stayed in office way past his allowed term. After Obi-Wan killed Grevious their first action was to make sure that power was returned to the Senate so that it would be a democracy again, the war could be over, and they could get back to their own business of just being peacekeepers. If the Jedi were uitlizing the clone army to try and enforce their will, they would have been the ones trying to keep the war going as long as possible. But they were trying to end it as soon as possible because what you said was not their goal. If you want to talk about to toll all this had on the Jedi, which is pretty much what your entire post was about. That is a completely different discussion. So my presenting a differing opinion then yours and the evidence to back it up now moves too 'going completly off topic?' I don't know about you but I was talking about the political corruption of the Jedi Order. Their usage of the Clone Army being a central piece of evidence in that claim, which was pointed out many times in universe as a potential bad and corrupting thing...they became soldiers and generals, not diplomats and protectors . They essentially became a long arm tool of the Republican Government (which just so happened to be led by a Sith Lord of all things). And as far as the first thing they did when Grevious was killed...they decided to go arrest the Chancellor so that he would be forced to return his powers. But Mace Windu also proposed that the Jedi would have to take 'temporary' control of the Senate to 'maintain a smooth transition of power'. Something Yoda pointed out could lead them down a 'dark path.' And when Palpatine refused to go quietly...as it were...a simple mission to arrest him turned into an assassination plot because 'the courts/ Senate couldn't be trusted/ he is too dangerous to be kept alive'. All this points to the Jedi becoming dangerous, corrupt, hypocrites that were far more interested in maintaining their own power. Edit: Arrogant hypocrites...forgot to add 'arrogant'.
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Post by Hier0phant on Jul 2, 2020 10:37:26 GMT
All this points to the Jedi becoming dangerous, corrupt, hypocrites that were far more interested in maintaining their own power. Edit: Arrogant hypocrites...forgot to add 'arrogant'. That's a whole lot of absolutes there. Sith areing we?
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Post by rewindbutton on Jul 2, 2020 11:49:31 GMT
Rebels will always be a series of missed opportunities for me. [snip] I suppose at the end of the day while the best of the Clone Wars was better then Rebels the worse of the Clone Wars was WAY worse then Rebels. And well about your criticisms. I didn't say Kanan and Hera was terrible...just that it was odd that they were almost acting like a couple in like the first two episodes and then their relationship was almost forgotten entirely until his last two...oh and she ends up pregnant. And while the Ezra-Kanan relationship probably could have used more attention but on the other hand it probably is the one that has been given the most attention, at least of SWs onscreen adaptations. I would agree that CW had those 'Not gonna watch that again any time soon' -episodes.
You didn't say that Kanan and Hera were terrible, but I did. Their relationship got axed for... reasons? Probably because it was on Disney XD and aimed at younger audiences.
The fact that we actually got some padawan-master screentime, was probably the reason I wanted more. It has never been properly shown onscreen, and since I haven't read any of the novels (except Zahn's Trawn), that's most I have ever got.
Speaking of Thrawn, I wonder if he is actually inspired by the character Bel Riose in Foundation. Who in turn was inspired by the Roman general Belisarius. They are all very intelligent and gifted, and trying to keep a dying empire together by martial might.
And while I was a bit whiny in my previous post, I do like Rebels in that it gave us more Vader, Maul, Kenobi and especially Thrawn. Maybe Disney will finally realise, that the sequel trilogy we were looking for, was right under their noses the whole time. Maybe? One can hope, right? Right?
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Post by colfoley on Jul 2, 2020 19:24:35 GMT
I suppose at the end of the day while the best of the Clone Wars was better then Rebels the worse of the Clone Wars was WAY worse then Rebels. And well about your criticisms. I didn't say Kanan and Hera was terrible...just that it was odd that they were almost acting like a couple in like the first two episodes and then their relationship was almost forgotten entirely until his last two...oh and she ends up pregnant. And while the Ezra-Kanan relationship probably could have used more attention but on the other hand it probably is the one that has been given the most attention, at least of SWs onscreen adaptations. I would agree that CW had those 'Not gonna watch that again any time soon' -episodes.
You didn't say that Kanan and Hera were terrible, but I did. Their relationship got axed for... reasons? Probably because it was on Disney XD and aimed at younger audiences.
The fact that we actually got some padawan-master screentime, was probably the reason I wanted more. It has never been properly shown onscreen, and since I haven't read any of the novels (except Zahn's Trawn), that's most I have ever got.
Speaking of Thrawn, I wonder if he is actually inspired by the character Bel Riose in Foundation. Who in turn was inspired by the Roman general Belisarius. They are all very intelligent and gifted, and trying to keep a dying empire together by martial might.
And while I was a bit whiny in my previous post, I do like Rebels in that it gave us more Vader, Maul, Kenobi and especially Thrawn. Maybe Disney will finally realise, that the sequel trilogy we were looking for, was right under their noses the whole time. Maybe? One can hope, right? Right? whose this 'we' you're talking about?
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Post by mybudgee on Jul 2, 2020 19:45:01 GMT
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Post by Iakus on Jul 2, 2020 21:12:58 GMT
Maybe Disney will finally realise, that the sequel trilogy we were looking for, was right under their noses the whole time. Maybe? One can hope, right? Right? whose this 'we' you're talking about?
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Post by Iakus on Jul 2, 2020 21:17:33 GMT
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jul 2, 2020 21:22:32 GMT
Sounds absolutely awful. Far worse than any perceived damage the sequels did.
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Post by colfoley on Jul 2, 2020 21:58:16 GMT
I'm surprised it took this long to post that.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by cypherj on Jul 3, 2020 0:30:56 GMT
Dude, you went completely off topic. You said "The 'Jedi' saw the galaxy sliding to darkness so they 'created' and much more accuratley utilized a clone army to try and enforce their will of what balance was on the rest of the galaxy." Which isn't true. They neither created the clone, nor did they try and use it force their will or their principles on the galaxy. They got involved to try and end a galactic war. They got involved in the politics because they saw that the government had gone from a Republic to Dictatorship. You left left out the part of Obi-Wan's quote where he says their allegiance is to democracy. The Chancellor had taken absolute power, and stayed in office way past his allowed term. After Obi-Wan killed Grevious their first action was to make sure that power was returned to the Senate so that it would be a democracy again, the war could be over, and they could get back to their own business of just being peacekeepers. If the Jedi were uitlizing the clone army to try and enforce their will, they would have been the ones trying to keep the war going as long as possible. But they were trying to end it as soon as possible because what you said was not their goal. If you want to talk about to toll all this had on the Jedi, which is pretty much what your entire post was about. That is a completely different discussion. So my presenting a differing opinion then yours and the evidence to back it up now moves too 'going completly off topic?' I don't know about you but I was talking about the political corruption of the Jedi Order. Their usage of the Clone Army being a central piece of evidence in that claim, which was pointed out many times in universe as a potential bad and corrupting thing...they became soldiers and generals, not diplomats and protectors . They essentially became a long arm tool of the Republican Government (which just so happened to be led by a Sith Lord of all things). And as far as the first thing they did when Grevious was killed...they decided to go arrest the Chancellor so that he would be forced to return his powers. But Mace Windu also proposed that the Jedi would have to take 'temporary' control of the Senate to 'maintain a smooth transition of power'. Something Yoda pointed out could lead them down a 'dark path.' And when Palpatine refused to go quietly...as it were...a simple mission to arrest him turned into an assassination plot because 'the courts/ Senate couldn't be trusted/ he is too dangerous to be kept alive'. All this points to the Jedi becoming dangerous, corrupt, hypocrites that were far more interested in maintaining their own power. Edit: Arrogant hypocrites...forgot to add 'arrogant'. Mace Windu proposed it and Yoda was not going for it. Yoda was Grandmaster so that would probably have been a non starter. Also, Windu proposed that before Grevious was killed. After Grevious was killed all you heard him talk about was going to make sure Palpatime returned the power to the Senate. Nothing of the Jedi being involved in any transition. You're completely distorting what happened with Palpatine. It did not turn in an assassination plot by the Jedi. If Anakin had never talked to Windu they would have just gone to simply arrest him. But someone telling you that the Chancellor is a Sith Lord who has control over the entire government, and oh, murdered three Jedi. You're acting like the Jedi as an organization hatched some plot as opposed to one Jedi making his own decision in the moment. Two completely different things. I'm honestly surprised that Windu hesitated all because in the other prequel movies the Jedi pretty much said we need to find the Sith and destroy them on sight. The oppression of the Sith will never return is what Windu said. Not, we're taking control. Look at Obi-Wan, Yoda, Fisto, Mundi, Shaak Ti, and pretty much anyone else on the council other than Windu and give me examples of the leadership acting in any way that was dangerous and corrupt. What actions did the Jedi take as a group take towards grabbing power? Also, you keep saying threatening their power. What power was that exactly. Jedi were making laws? Charging taxes and bringing in money? Jedi were ruling worlds? I mean what power were they protecting, other than living in their temple and going out into the galaxy on behalf of the Republic, like in TPM when Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon were acting as ambassadors.
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Post by rewindbutton on Jul 3, 2020 9:36:10 GMT
That's coming from Doomcock, so I'd take it with a grain of salt. That said;
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Post by rewindbutton on Jul 3, 2020 9:38:56 GMT
Sounds absolutely awful. Far worse than any perceived damage the sequels did. Corporations want money. If there's a slightest chance they are considering this, it means they want more of it.
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Post by Sifr on Jul 3, 2020 14:03:27 GMT
They'd do better to start by erasing the whole thing starting with Force Awakens, as that movie had just as many problems as TLJ and ROS did when it came to how it treated the original characters and how poorly conceived the whole setting was.
We are left to assume the First Order are the Imperial Remnants, but how big are their forces? How big is the New Republic? How powerful are the sides in comparison to one another and why are the Resistance the only ones seemingly fighting them?
We only really know any of that information from supplementary materials, but none of it is explained in the movie proper. From how TFA depicts the NR, it looks to be five planets clustered together that we only see right before they are atomised by Starkiller base. It neither does a very good job of showing, nor telling us what the stakes are.
In the original trilogy, right from the first shot we could see the oppressive juggernaut that is the Galactic Empire as it hunts down a tiny Rebel ship, setting up how severely outmatched our heroes are. That is then reinforced when we see the Death Star in action for the first time, setting up the stakes and letting the audience know why the Empire cannot be allowed to win.
The original film didn't explain everything, but we were given enough information and shown just enough to be able to follow the story, without needing an artbook and looking up Wookiepedia to understand what X Plot Point was. We weren't told what the Kessel Run or Clone Wars were about, but they trusted that audiences were smart enough to figure it out from the gist of what the characters were talking about.
Unfortunately the sequel trilogy seems to treat worldbuilding as though you can simply namedrop things without providing any context for them, while not bothering to further elaborate on those things when they later becomes relevant to the plot.
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Post by colfoley on Jul 3, 2020 19:58:00 GMT
They'd do better to start by erasing the whole thing starting with Force Awakens, as that movie had just as many problems as TLJ and ROS did when it came to how it treated the original characters and how poorly conceived the whole setting was.
We are left to assume the First Order are the Imperial Remnants, but how big are their forces? How big is the New Republic? How powerful are the sides in comparison to one another and why are the Resistance the only ones seemingly fighting them?
We only really know any of that information from supplementary materials, but none of it is explained in the movie proper. From how TFA depicts the NR, it looks to be five planets clustered together that we only see right before they are atomised by Starkiller base. It neither does a very good job of showing, nor telling us what the stakes are.
In the original trilogy, right from the first shot we could see the oppressive juggernaut that is the Galactic Empire as it hunts down a tiny Rebel ship, setting up how severely outmatched our heroes are. That is then reinforced when we see the Death Star in action for the first time, setting up the stakes and letting the audience know why the Empire cannot be allowed to win.
The original film didn't explain everything, but we were given enough information and shown just enough to be able to follow the story, without needing an artbook and looking up Wookiepedia to understand what X Plot Point was. We weren't told what the Kessel Run or Clone Wars were about, but they trusted that audiences were smart enough to figure it out from the gist of what the characters were talking about.
Unfortunately the sequel trilogy seems to treat worldbuilding as though you can simply namedrop things without providing any context for them, while not bothering to further elaborate on those things when they later becomes relevant to the plot.
Its interesting you bring up that direct comparison because we also got NONE of that in ANH either. Point of fact we never really got that kind of information in any of the OT movies either. I mean sure we got a 'good idea' of the power of the Empire and what kind of forces they had at their disposal by the fact that Star Destroyers kept popping up all over the place and they were able to build two different planet killers. The only stuff that really gave us an in depth look at the setting was the Old EU books about the actual kind of weapons and techniqes and forces the Empire could hold. Remember the OT we basically only saw a handful of planets and it focused on Luke, Han, Leia, and Vader...with side appearances from...well a bunch of other characters. But the scope of the series was small. Contrast that with the only other time that Star Wars tried to do actual world building in the films and the perception is that it fell on its face...now I don't think that reputation is entirey fair mind you, and nor do I think Disney 'ignored the prequels', like some charge...but you can hardly blame Disney for avoiding what was to that point the movie's weakest element...especially when you have only at most 2 and a half hours to tell your story. Star Wars is best when it focuses on its A. Characters and B. Philosophy. Star Wars (movies) tend to be weakest when they try and 'world build'. The ST and OT did the former, which is why I like them so much. The Prequels, while still quite enjoyable, still has the only SWs movie that I dislike. Edit: I mean sure these kinds of questions are fun to consider its interesting thought experiment 'how many ships did the Earth Alliance have' or 'where does the First Order build its ships'...but really in terms of the larger story and what puts my particular butt in a movie seat I really only care about characters...then story...then setting. And again I think the ST has the best overall character writing of the three.
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House Targaryen
N5
The night is dark and full of terrors, but the fire burns them all away.
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
Origin: gscott7833
Prime Posts: 1,584
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House Targaryen
The night is dark and full of terrors, but the fire burns them all away.
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thehound
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Post by House Targaryen on Jul 4, 2020 4:41:38 GMT
Get that fake news outta here
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Fear is your only God
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Post by mybudgee on Jul 5, 2020 1:06:47 GMT
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Post by SirSourpuss on Jul 5, 2020 1:09:16 GMT
Tilda? I'm in. Say no more.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jul 5, 2020 1:48:10 GMT
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Post by masterwarderz on Jul 5, 2020 2:03:27 GMT
Given how many people express that they enjoyed Rogue One...well here ya go
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