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Post by smilesja on Feb 17, 2021 20:48:06 GMT
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Post by B. Hieronymus Da on Feb 17, 2021 21:20:42 GMT
The problem with your Wikipedia link is that the marketing cost for a film isn't included in a film's stated budget when determining a box office bomb. Unlike independent film studios who rely on an outside source LucasFilms' TLJ's budget and marketing cost should be covered by Disney (financer/producer). With Disney not being forthcoming with the budget the $200-$317 million figure is sketchy. Split TLJ's 1.3 billion total gross in half then subtract the film's budget from that figure, then include the marketing cost which can run anywhere between $100-$200 million on top of China's marketing cost due to it's unique censorship and restrictions and it's arguable if TLJ made a profit for Disney. You can apply this math to any big budget Disney movie: Avengers budget - $220 million, box office - $1.5 billion. Budget is sketchy, split in half, add marketing cost aaand we have another box office bomb, right? And both of you are forgetting the interest and cost of purchasing Lucasfilm. Are you trying to say that for TLJ to be box office success it needed to earn more than 4 billion dollars after all expences? It has destroyed the future revenue stream. Right, so, no TRoS, no Mandalorian, no Jedi: Fallen Order no High Republic comics, people just stopped buying Star Wars stuff. You use a term 'movie bomb' which has a specific meaning - its all expences made to produce a movie (including marketing btw) vs its revenue. It doesnt include merchandise, comics, video games or cost of purchase of entire SW franchise along with Lucasfilm studio. And when people hear it they understand it that way. Dont just change definition of a word just because you really dont like a movie. Did TLJ harm Star Wars' reputation? Yes. Did it harm future revenue from this franchise? Maybe. Was Solo: A Star Wars Story a box office bomb? Yes. Was The Last Jedi a box office bomb? No. P.S. deadline.com/2020/04/star-wars-rise-of-skywalker-movie-profit-2019-lowest-for-lucasfilm-1202915179/ So okay, if you want to play that game, TLJ wasn't "a bomb". But it was a disaster. The rest is just a paintjob. I don't quite understand if you want to make some argument about TLJ? You have to understand that Solo bombed BECAUSE of TLJ.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Feb 17, 2021 21:54:27 GMT
George Lucas to Ewan McGregor at the final scene in RotS on a completely green screen set: “Look at the moons!”
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Post by skekSil on Feb 17, 2021 22:03:43 GMT
I don't quite understand if you want to make some argument about TLJ? I dont. I can sometimes be quite pedantic and critisize people for inaccuracies or wrong use of terms. You have to understand that Solo bombed BECAUSE of TLJ. Can you prove that? There are many other explanations why it bombed, can you prove that this explanation takes precedence over others?
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Post by B. Hieronymus Da on Feb 17, 2021 23:21:15 GMT
You have to understand that Solo bombed BECAUSE of TLJ. Can you prove that? There are many other explanations why it bombed, can you prove that this explanation takes precedence over others? Do I have to "prove" that to you, for you to understand that? Can you "prove" that smoking causes cancer? Can you "prove" that global warming is man made and real? Can you "prove" that the world is round to a flat-Earther?
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Post by Hier0phant on Feb 18, 2021 0:15:32 GMT
The problem with your Wikipedia link is that the marketing cost for a film isn't included in a film's stated budget when determining a box office bomb. Unlike independent film studios who rely on an outside source LucasFilms' TLJ's budget and marketing cost should be covered by Disney (financer/producer). With Disney not being forthcoming with the budget the $200-$317 million figure is sketchy. Split TLJ's 1.3 billion total gross in half then subtract the film's budget from that figure, then include the marketing cost which can run anywhere between $100-$200 million on top of China's marketing cost due to it's unique censorship and restrictions and it's arguable if TLJ made a profit for Disney. You can apply this math to any big budget Disney movie: Avengers budget - $220 million, box office - $1.5 billion. Budget is sketchy, split in half, add marketing cost aaand we have another box office bomb, right? The Avengers budget isn't sketchy because $220 million is the approximate answer that was given versus The Last Jedi's mystery budget of $200-$317 million which is an inconclusive answer for no reason other than Disney trying to obfuscate the real cost of the film. Then there's The Avengers marketing cost of $200 million that was gloated over which contrasts the crickets for The Last Jedi's marketing cost. Cut The Avengers total gross of 1.5 billion in half ($750 million) due to theater chains getting a 50/50 split of the sales, then subtract it's budget of $220 million, and marketing budget of $200 million from Disney's share of the gross. $750m - $220m + $200m = $330m is not exact but should be around how much profit Disney made off of the Avengers after taking into account the budgets. The Last Jedi's problem is that due to Disney's lack of transparency with it's budgets no approximate estimate can be given which speaks volumes about Mickey's faith in the film's profits. We can use TFA's budget of $306 million as a reference to guesstimate where in the $200m-$317m bracket it's cost is, but then there's the marketing budget which has the possibility of ballooning due to Disney's aggressive campaign in China to compensate for TFA's past performance. $666m - $300m? - $200-$300? = ???
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Post by mybudgee on Feb 18, 2021 6:15:03 GMT
You have to understand that Solo bombed BECAUSE of TLJ. Can you prove that?
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Post by rewindbutton on Feb 18, 2021 9:35:50 GMT
[snip]Can you "prove" that smoking causes cancer?[/snip] This is a myth that I particularly dislike. It was proven in the 1950's, but Tobacco Industry spent millions to bury the evidence. It became TI's party line, that if you can't prove it in court, it doesn't exist. And they would sue everyone who tried to go public with evidence.
And there are little known studies by German scientists in the 1930's and 40's, that proved the relation of smoking and lung cancer, as well as other cancers. But it was buried after the war because the Nazi Party had fought against smoking for years. Source
Now I'm not saying that you believe that, but it's a falsehood that I've heard too many times.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 18, 2021 13:38:43 GMT
Can you prove that? There are many other explanations why it bombed, can you prove that this explanation takes precedence over others? Do I have to "prove" that to you, for you to understand that? Can you "prove" that smoking causes cancer? Can you "prove" that global warming is man made and real? Can you "prove" that the world is round to a flat-Earther? I really don't have to because the earth is neither round nor flat and i can prove it ... it is shaped into a delicious donut. This picture proves that i'm right. So there you go.
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Post by Hier0phant on Feb 18, 2021 18:51:10 GMT
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Post by decafhigh on Feb 18, 2021 20:04:26 GMT
The Last Jedi's problem is that due to Disney's lack of transparency with it's budgets no approximate estimate can be given which speaks volumes about Mickey's faith in the film's profits The films made money obviously. They did... okay. You don't give Lucas $4 billion dollars for a franchise to just do "okay" though. Merchandising is where they are really hurting since SW's merch just doesn't move anymore. Aside from Baby Yoda and Cara Dune merch, oops...
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Post by skekSil on Feb 18, 2021 22:29:31 GMT
Can you prove that? There are many other explanations why it bombed, can you prove that this explanation takes precedence over others? Do I have to "prove" that to you, for you to understand that? Can you "prove" that smoking causes cancer? Can you "prove" that global warming is man made and real? Can you "prove" that the world is round to a flat-Earther? You can provide some evidence that your assertion that TLJ killed Solo is a better explanation for its failure than, say, Solo was a bad movie or its marketing campain failed or people didnt like a guy who played Solo or they didnt like 'femenist' droid or all of the above. The Avengers budget isn't sketchy because $220 million is the approximate answer that was given versus The Last Jedi's mystery budget of $200-$317 million which is an inconclusive answer for no reason other than Disney trying to obfuscate the real cost of the film. Then there's The Avengers marketing cost of $200 million that was gloated over which contrasts the crickets for The Last Jedi's marketing cost. The Last Jedi's problem is that due to Disney's lack of transparency with it's budgets no approximate estimate can be given which speaks volumes about Mickey's faith in the film's profits. We can use TFA's budget of $306 million as a reference to guesstimate where in the $200m-$317m bracket it's cost is, but then there's the marketing budget which has the possibility of ballooning due to Disney's aggressive campaign in China to compensate for TFA's past performance. $666m - $300m? - $200-$300? = ??? 666-300-300>0 - still not a bomb That was a very biased analisys, you realy wanted TLJ to fail. If there is a range of estimates you pick the larger one, assume bad faith on Disney's part (i.e. they are hiding their failure) if they dont say something and 'eyeball' a marketing budget, suggesting up to a 100 million budget for China, basing this solely on a fact that some other movie had a very big marketing budget. By the way $200 million was a marketing budget for Avengers: Endgame not Avengers (2012) which I used as example. Avengers: Endgame was a culmination of the whole Avengers series of movies and its marketing cost ($200 million) was consideredt phenomenally large. Yet you think that TLJ somehow stealthily could have an even larger one? Now lets consider that Disney was planning to get a larger cut of profits around a time when TLJ came out: www.wsj.com/articles/disney-lays-down-the-law-for-theaters-on-star-wars-the-last-jedi-1509528603I dont know if they succeded to implement these changes but if they did their revenue could be several hundred millions larger.
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Post by Hier0phant on Feb 19, 2021 0:39:54 GMT
The Avengers budget isn't sketchy because $220 million is the approximate answer that was given versus The Last Jedi's mystery budget of $200-$317 million which is an inconclusive answer for no reason other than Disney trying to obfuscate the real cost of the film. Then there's The Avengers marketing cost of $200 million that was gloated over which contrasts the crickets for The Last Jedi's marketing cost. The Last Jedi's problem is that due to Disney's lack of transparency with it's budgets no approximate estimate can be given which speaks volumes about Mickey's faith in the film's profits. We can use TFA's budget of $306 million as a reference to guesstimate where in the $200m-$317m bracket it's cost is, but then there's the marketing budget which has the possibility of ballooning due to Disney's aggressive campaign in China to compensate for TFA's past performance. $666m - $300m? - $200-$300? = ??? 666-300-300>0 - still not a bomb That was a very biased analisys, you realy wanted TLJ to fail. If there is a range of estimates you pick the larger one, assume bad faith on Disney's part (i.e. they are hiding their failure) if they dont say something and 'eyeball' a marketing budget, suggesting up to a 100 million budget for China, basing this solely on a fact that some other movie had a very big marketing budget. By the way $200 million was a marketing budget for Avengers: Endgame not Avengers (2012) which I used as example. Avengers: Endgame was a culmination of the whole Avengers series of movies and its marketing cost ($200 million) was consideredt phenomenally large. Yet you think that TLJ somehow stealthily could have an even larger one? Now lets consider that Disney was planning to get a larger cut of profits around a time when TLJ came out: www.wsj.com/articles/disney-lays-down-the-law-for-theaters-on-star-wars-the-last-jedi-1509528603I dont know if they succeded to implement these changes but if they did their revenue could be several hundred millions larger. Disney's larger cut only applies to North American and Canadian theaters (domestic) for 4 weeks, while the share of profits are usually inversed across the globe with the studio/Disney taking a smaller percentage of each dollar earned from the worldwide distributors, which is more than the domestic gross too. Using the 50/50 split for the combined domestic, and worldwide gross i'm being generous to Disney thanks to the foreign distributors getting a larger cut from ticket sales. celluloidjunkie.com/2017/11/04/disney-can-demand-65-box-office-star-wars-last-jedi/www.wsj.com/articles/for-hollywood-not-all-box-office-dollars-are-equal-1409241925Plus the $66 million being left after TLJ's profits from my guesstimation is in doubt due to TLJ's estimated high end cost being $317 million while the marketing budget could potentially be more too. Unlike Hieronymus i'm being generous in budget costs, and by not considering the deficit Disney is working from after acquiring the IP. We can quibble about TLJ being a bomb for eternity but after it cost 600+ usd to make, and market versus the Avengers $420m while earning less, and it failing to meet it's projected gross of 1.7b. The film is anything but a success.
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Post by Hier0phant on Feb 19, 2021 0:55:43 GMT
The Last Jedi's problem is that due to Disney's lack of transparency with it's budgets no approximate estimate can be given which speaks volumes about Mickey's faith in the film's profits The films made money obviously. They did... okay. You don't give Lucas $4 billion dollars for a franchise to just do "okay" though. Merchandising is where they are really hurting since SW's merch just doesn't move anymore. Aside from Baby Yoda and Cara Dune merch, oops... EA with the BF games ironically were printing money for Disney too but then they dropped 1b on Galaxy Edge and then covid happened.
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Post by skekSil on Feb 19, 2021 1:02:58 GMT
Plus the $66 million being left after TLJ's profits from my guesstimation is in doubt due to TLJ's estimated high end cost being $317 million while the marketing budget could potentially be more too. And yet again you pick higher number for no reason other than to make TLJ look bad. Why do you insist that $317 million for production budget and $300 for marketing budget are correct estimates?
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Post by OdanUrr on Feb 19, 2021 1:16:08 GMT
I think the biggest argument against TLJ being a success is that we got TRoS after that, which was the equivalent of trying to course correct after hitting the iceberg.
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Post by Hier0phant on Feb 19, 2021 2:12:05 GMT
Plus the $66 million being left after TLJ's profits from my guesstimation is in doubt due to TLJ's estimated high end cost being $317 million while the marketing budget could potentially be more too. And yet again you pick higher number for no reason other than to make TLJ look bad. Why do you insist that $317 million for production budget and $300 for marketing budget are correct estimates? TLJ already looks bad on it's own after it's record setting 2nd week drop in sales, and it flopping in China with just $44m. TLJ's budget being $317m is regarded as a high-end estimate from the projection that was given ($200-$317) and makes sense when compared to TFA's $306m budget, and it's not unusual for a sequel to cost more than it's predecessor like Marvel's The Age of Ultron or Terminator 2. Then there's the marketing budget that can even be $350m+ due to Disney overcompensating for TFA's performance in China, and from having to cater to their unique censorship guidelines and financial demands. Disney not providing an exact estimate on TLJ's production and marketing budget when compared to their bragging over The Avengers' budgets makes TLJ look bad.
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Post by AlleluiaElizabeth on Feb 19, 2021 2:54:36 GMT
So, I'm playing through Fallen Order for the first time (its part of the EA vault right now) and I'm really loving Cal. I've just gotten to the point where I'm being asked to choose from a few destinations and its really a lot of fun so far. And if I've died *way* too many times while experimenting with parkour in a map filled with abyssal drops, a giant dinosaur, and hazardous amphibians, well that's entirely my own business.
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Post by B. Hieronymus Da on Feb 19, 2021 21:54:28 GMT
...An old Muay Thai title match in Thailand.
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Post by skekSil on Feb 19, 2021 22:03:00 GMT
TLJ's budget being $317m is regarded as a high-end estimate from the projection that was given ($200-$317) and makes sense when compared to TFA's $306m budget, and it's not unusual for a sequel to cost more than it's predecessor like Marvel's The Age of Ultron or Terminator 2. Its not unheard of for sequel to have lower budget. Example: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harry_Potter_and_the_Philosopher%27s_Stone_(film) - $125 million en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harry_Potter_and_the_Chamber_of_Secrets_(film) - $100 million Then there's the marketing budget that can even be $350m+ due to Disney overcompensating for TFA's performance in China, and from having to cater to their unique censorship guidelines and financial demands. Can you give a link to a source that claims TLJ marketing cost was $350 million?
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Post by skekSil on Feb 19, 2021 22:09:09 GMT
So, I'm playing through Fallen Order for the first time (its part of the EA vault right now) and I'm really loving Cal. I've just gotten to the point where I'm being asked to choose from a few destinations and its really a lot of fun so far. And if I've died *way* too many times while experimenting with parkour in a map filled with abyssal drops, a giant dinosaur, and hazardous amphibians, well that's entirely my own business. Did the same a month ago, great game. I recommend learning well how to block and evade, most important skills in the game.
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Post by Hier0phant on Feb 20, 2021 5:38:16 GMT
Of course. Within the SW franchise itself TRoS is estimated to have cost $275m which is similar to Solo's budget while Rogue One's inconclusive budget is estimated to cost $200m-$265m. Disney's lack of confidence in giving a definitive answer to TLJ's estimated budget on top of the existence of reshoots opens up the possibility of TLJ's budget surpassing it's predecessor's. Reread the sentence it's all speculative with the keywords being - while the + after $350m+ means that the marketing budget could potentially exceed that figure. About where i draw my conclusion from is a statement on Disney's marketing strategy in China which emphasises the differences in language across China, which means that the marketing has to take into account the different dialects which can lead to custom ads being made per region (more money spent) in order to effectively target China's consumer base who can speak in Mandarin, Cantonese, Fuzhounese, Jin, etc. The above only talks about digital marketing, imagine the expenses involved with the other forms of marketing. www.marketing-interactive.com/how-the-walt-disney-company-made-waves-in-greater-chinaen.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_varieties_of_Chinese
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Post by smilesja on Feb 20, 2021 16:15:36 GMT
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Post by Energizer Bunny 211 on Feb 21, 2021 12:34:24 GMT
So, I'm playing through Fallen Order for the first time (its part of the EA vault right now) and I'm really loving Cal. I've just gotten to the point where I'm being asked to choose from a few destinations and its really a lot of fun so far. And if I've died *way* too many times while experimenting with parkour in a map filled with abyssal drops, a giant dinosaur, and hazardous amphibians, well that's entirely my own business. Yes, the wall running does take some getting used to....and I'm glad you're enjoying the game and the characters, it's such a great game.
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