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Post by Qui-Gon GlenN7 on Jun 28, 2018 21:35:34 GMT
I struggle to think of ANY entertainment as 'holy'. Sunday mass.
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Post by B. Hieronymus Da on Jun 28, 2018 22:11:54 GMT
Regarding the complaint about the bomber in space, I always just figured that the ship itself propelled them downward so that it appeared as though gravity were pulling them toward the ship below. Turns out the Wookieepedia says I wasn’t that far off. starwars.wikia.com/wiki/MG-100_StarFortress_SF-17Doesn't matter. If the starships are just floating in space suspended by the thrust of their drives, to compensate for gravity, then the bombs will drop straight down. I should add that if the starships can do this, then they can also lower themselves down on a planet and land. Yet we have never seen this. Always shuttles are used. But if they're using 'antigrav', same thing, the bombs will fall straight down if the bomber isn't moving around the planet. If the starships are in orbit, otoh, which they should be to save fuel, then "propelling them downward" won't work. Instead the bombs will enter a more elliptical orbit, in total representing a higher energy state than the original orbit (because the "downward" force will momentarily accelerate them, adding to their velocity). I could be okay with the bombers though. My position is more like, this isn't really meant to be 'realistic' space mechanics. What is important though is that the fictive rules are constant and consistent, not what they are. Which brings us to: For instance, fuel has never been an issue before. Luke flew all over the galaxy in his little X-wing fighter. Never concerned himself about fuel. Millenium Falcon the same. Also, there has never been any evidence of fuel tanks in the spaceships' designs. Fuel was never an issue. So why is it now? - Failure! For instance, hyperspace never previously interacted with space. (This is credible physics btw, assuming FTL speeds, there can be no communication with normal space). And now, suddenly, because those selfish jerks, Kennedy & Johnson wants a hero's death for incompetent vice admiral gender studies, it's possible to ram ships in normal space. So why haven't hyperspace missiles been developed for like a million years ago? This is so stupid it defies belief and ruins immersion. So why has no one ever been worried about hitting stars, planets, asteroids while flying in hyperspace? Isn't there even a scene in an old movie where they come out of hyperspace inside an asteroid field? Not to mention particles, which are everywhere? - Failure! It's just so damn stupid. And it breaks the established lore, just like so many other things about the characters and the force. My complaint is what Rian Johnson even has admitted to, in a recent twitter exchange: George Lucas had a personal vision of what he wanted SW to be. That vision was a success, was something people responded to, and ultimately created a multibillion dollar movie franchise. That personal vision of George Lucas' is what Disney purchased. Being the custodian of that vision is what Disney hired Kathleen Kennedy and ultimately Rian Johnson for. Instead of being the custodian of that vision however, Rian Johnson decide to do his "personal vision" instead, not George Lucas'. He's welcome to do that anytime of course, but on his own time and launching his own franchise - we'll see how successful that'll be -, not with Disney's money and not with the Star Wars label.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 28, 2018 22:45:47 GMT
I feel like Yöda when he said “That is why yöu fail”. I say true fans. Yöu say fanatics(which fan is shört för btw). Call it whatever yöu want. This alöne is why yöu cant understand why TLJ was the wörst mövie ever made. Oh come on, now. Plan 9 from Outer Space was pretty bad, too. Sure but it is funny bad like The Roöm ör Döuble Döwn. Yöu can watch it and laugh at it.
TLJ is like "a kid finding öut Santa isnt real" bad. Söul crushing.
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Post by Deerber on Jun 28, 2018 22:57:46 GMT
Regarding the complaint about the bomber in space, I always just figured that the ship itself propelled them downward so that it appeared as though gravity were pulling them toward the ship below. Turns out the Wookieepedia says I wasn’t that far off. starwars.wikia.com/wiki/MG-100_StarFortress_SF-17You know, I'm glad there is an explanation, and maybe it even makes more sense in the novel, but it strikes me as the dumbest design ever for a space-faring military bomber. Additionally, why even bother approaching the giant star destroyer if you could just turn the bomber's nose up, point its bay towards the target, and "drop" the bombs from a ways out. Fun scene to watch, but it is SO contrived. P.S. Of course, you could probably say something similar about the trench run in A New Hope. There really is no reason the fighters couldn't have just approached the exhaust point from above and gone straight down, or just started the run just a bit closer to avoid their vulnerability during the extended run. Yep, if you go around pretty much any sci fi movie you'll find a lot of those things. The point, to me, ends up being: was it annoying to me? Did it break my suspension of disbelief? Things like the trench run don't, so I'm fine with it. Seeing bombs falling into space for no apparent reason did, so I hated the scene.... Regarding the complaint about the bomber in space, I always just figured that the ship itself propelled them downward so that it appeared as though gravity were pulling them toward the ship below. Turns out the Wookieepedia says I wasn’t that far off. starwars.wikia.com/wiki/MG-100_StarFortress_SF-17If the starships are in orbit, otoh, which they should be to save fuel, then "propelling them downward" won't work. Instead the bombs will enter a more elliptical orbit, in total representing a higher energy state than the original orbit (because the "downward" force will momentarily accelerate them, adding to their velocity). For instance, hyperspace never previously interacted with space. (This is credible physics btw, assuming FTL speeds, there can be no communication with normal space). And now, suddenly, because those selfish jerks, Kennedy & Johnson wants a hero's death for incompetent vice admiral gender studies, it's possible to ram ships in normal space. So why haven't hyperspace missiles been developed for like a million years ago? This is so stupid it defies belief and ruins immersion. So why has no one ever been worried about hitting stars, planets, asteroids while flying in hyperspace? Isn't there even a scene in an old movie where they come out of hyperspace inside an asteroid field? Not to mention particles, which are everywhere? - Failure! It's just so damn stupid. And it breaks the established lore, just like so many other things about the characters and the force. While I agree with the tone of the post in general, there's a bunch of not really correct stuff here. What are you talking about with the more elliptical orbit? If they're all in orbit around the planet, and the bombs get pushed down, they go down and hit the ships below. Second, I'm not sure I would call hyperspace credible physics, but w/e, and FTL speeds are not the reason why there can be no communication in that case, it's because they're in... Another dimension? Whatever it is. Also, hyperspace weapons actually appear in the EU, but they're nowhere as powerful as what TLJ makes it, so they're not widespread at all. But, also in the EU, it's actually made perfectly clear multiple times that you do need to worry about not hitting stuff while in hyperspace or you'll blow up. That's what navicomputers are for, to know the routes and make it possible to jump without being reduced to interstellar dust. Incidentally, that is also why Han ramming the Falcon through the planet's shield in TFA was such a facepalm moment. According to the EU lore, he'd have exploded well before getting through the shield, because of the gravity well projected by the planet. Which, again incidentally is, why they can't jump when close to a planet. That's why they often find themselves fleeing from planets at sub light speeds. Anyway, rant over lol, sorry.
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Post by Deerber on Jun 28, 2018 22:59:31 GMT
Are there really people taking that much offense over someone talking about the Original Trilogy as Holy? How the fuuuu... We really live in a fucked up world. Please tell me y'all are under 20 years of age... Please? Pretty please? I already know the answer is negative, don't bother with it. Sigh. I just had my daily share of "mankind has no hope" moments, I guess Yeah, it's totally normal comparing the OT as holy text that needs to be worshipped as such. Nah, you're right, it's not. It'd be very disrespectful to the Mighty Trilogy, actually
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Post by Deerber on Jun 28, 2018 23:00:18 GMT
Oh come on, now. Plan 9 from Outer Space was pretty bad, too. Sure but it is funny bad like The Roöm ör Döuble Döwn. Yöu can watch it and laugh at it.
TLJ is like "a kid finding öut Santa isnt real" bad. Söul crushing.
Only if you went to see it believeing Santa was real, still. I knew already, cause my soul got crushed with TFA
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Post by Nayawk on Jun 28, 2018 23:01:54 GMT
That the problem right there, Star Wars isn't a sci-fi movie, it's a Space Soap Opera and always has been.
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Post by Deerber on Jun 28, 2018 23:04:02 GMT
That the problem right there, Star Wars isn't a sci-fi movie, it's a Space Soap Opera and always has been. And does that clarification change anything about what I said before or after?
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Post by Nayawk on Jun 28, 2018 23:17:51 GMT
That the problem right there, Star Wars isn't a sci-fi movie, it's a Space Soap Opera and always has been. And does that clarification change anything about what I said before or after? It wasn't totally aimed at you, but at the general talk of 'bomb don't do that in space blah blah'. But your statement does tie into that, you said "Did it break my suspension of disbelief? Seeing bombs falling into space for no apparent reason did, so I hated the scene..." why did it break? if the answer is 'bomb don't do that in space blah blah' then we are back to ... it is the space movie equivalent of a spanish telenovela, stop looking for hard science because it has never been there in any of them.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 28, 2018 23:29:41 GMT
With SJWs in charge will we ever see anything like this in the mövies again?
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Post by B. Hieronymus Da on Jun 28, 2018 23:30:05 GMT
If the starships are in orbit, otoh, which they should be to save fuel, then "propelling them downward" won't work. Instead the bombs will enter a more elliptical orbit, in total representing a higher energy state than the original orbit (because the "downward" force will momentarily accelerate them, adding to their velocity). While I agree with the tone of the post in general, there's a bunch of not really correct stuff here. What are you talking about with the more elliptical orbit? If they're all in orbit around the planet, and the bombs get pushed down, they go down and hit the ships below. No. What we can agree upon is that it's possible to push the bombs away on a trajectory that will hit those ships eventually. But pushing them just downward won't help. A ship in an orbit "below", will be travelling faster, both in terms of velocity and angular velocity. It will not "hold station" without using thrust. A bomb pushed downward will not gain angular velocity at that point. 90 degrees into the future, around the planet, it will, but by that time it will be well below. But that wasn't the the real issue. I think of that as rather as: Why are there free-fall bombers at all? They reasonably have a different purpose than throwing bombs into trajectories intercepting other ships? But as I said, I could be okay with the bombers. Ramming things while in hyperspace though, I can't buy. Biggest problem is it's so obvious, yet has never been done before. What did the Empire need all their deathstars for? It's much simpler, just ram a planet with something in hyperspeed... Nah, it's such a breaker. I'm also not sure your defense of it is valid: What is EU? And TFA is part of the problem.
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Post by KaiserShep on Jun 28, 2018 23:36:18 GMT
The difference between Anakin and the other two is that Jar Jar and midichlorians are basically throw-away, for the most part. Binks infests TPM mostly, and slowly gets relegated to a background NPC, and I can’t even remember mention of midichlorians in Clones or Sith. But the trilogy is basically about him, and the annoying little boy or emo young adult with a sub-Twilight level romantic pursuit, chased with a dose of harebrained Suddenly Dark Side kind of sours the entire thing. And that’s on top of all the ridiculously wooden acting from a lot of other characters. The only one to make it out with remote fondness for me is Obi Wan. Grievous is great, IMO. Dooku is an interesting tragic tale. Jango/Boba and the Clones was not what I expected, and that didn't bother me one bit. Yes, romance was painful and poorly done. AotC was a general mess. That said, each prequel movie is significantly better, and feels more like Star Wars, than any of the Rat Shit. I didn’t think any of these things were done well until The Clone Wars, where we really got to see all of these things shine. I think this goes to my thinking that Star Wars is actually better suited as a long epic serial than feature films. Even Anakin was better there. Way better.
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Post by KaiserShep on Jun 28, 2018 23:38:52 GMT
Oh come on, now. Plan 9 from Outer Space was pretty bad, too. Sure but it is funny bad like The Roöm ör Döuble Döwn. Yöu can watch it and laugh at it.
TLJ is like "a kid finding öut Santa isnt real" bad. Söul crushing.
Only the clinically insane would watch The Room or Double Down to laugh by themselves.
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Post by griffith82 on Jun 28, 2018 23:38:56 GMT
With SJWs in charge will we ever see anything like this in the mövies again? If that’s all you want there’s plenty of porn out there.
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Post by KaiserShep on Jun 28, 2018 23:42:06 GMT
While I agree with the tone of the post in general, there's a bunch of not really correct stuff here. What are you talking about with the more elliptical orbit? If they're all in orbit around the planet, and the bombs get pushed down, they go down and hit the ships below. No. What we can agree upon is that it's possible to push the bombs away on a trajectory that will hit those ships eventually. But pushing them just downward won't help. A ship in an orbit "below", will be travelling faster, both in terms of velocity and angular velocity. It will not "hold station" without using thrust. A bomb pushed downward will not gain angular velocity at that point. 90 degrees into the future, around the planet, it will, but by that time it will be well below. But that wasn't the the real issue. I think of that as rather as: Why are there free-fall bombers at all? They reasonably have a different purpose than throwing bombs into trajectories intercepting other ships? But as I said, I could be okay with the bombers. Ramming things while in hyperspace though, I can't buy. Biggest problem is it's so obvious, yet has never been done before. What did the Empire need all their deathstars to? It's much simpler, just ram a planet with something in hyperspeed... Nah, it's such a breaker. I'm also not sure your defense of it is valid: What is EU? And TFA is part of the problem. I have to wonder though. If something like hyperdrives exist, why wouldn’t there be light-speed kamikaze maneuvers? I guess just no one ever bothers because it raises these nagging questions.
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Post by B. Hieronymus Da on Jun 28, 2018 23:43:22 GMT
With SJWs in charge will we ever see anything like this in the mövies again? If that’s all you want there’s plenty of porn out there. And you're saying that seriously? As if you think any porn ever can hold a candle to that?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 28, 2018 23:51:07 GMT
With SJWs in charge will we ever see anything like this in the mövies again? If that’s all you want there’s plenty of porn out there. Thats exactly what I said. Nö. It is just disappöinting that sömething as icönic as that will nöt be in the mövies. Just think höw huge öf a cultural impact that has had. Höw many wömen have cösplayed as that?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 28, 2018 23:51:55 GMT
Sure but it is funny bad like The Roöm ör Döuble Döwn. Yöu can watch it and laugh at it. TLJ is like "a kid finding öut Santa isnt real" bad. Söul crushing.
Only the clinically insane would watch The Room or Double Down to laugh by themselves. Döuble Döwn is öne öf my favörite mövies.
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Post by B. Hieronymus Da on Jun 29, 2018 0:09:55 GMT
No. What we can agree upon is that it's possible to push the bombs away on a trajectory that will hit those ships eventually. But pushing them just downward won't help. A ship in an orbit "below", will be travelling faster, both in terms of velocity and angular velocity. It will not "hold station" without using thrust. A bomb pushed downward will not gain angular velocity at that point. 90 degrees into the future, around the planet, it will, but by that time it will be well below. But that wasn't the the real issue. I think of that as rather as: Why are there free-fall bombers at all? They reasonably have a different purpose than throwing bombs into trajectories intercepting other ships? But as I said, I could be okay with the bombers. Ramming things while in hyperspace though, I can't buy. Biggest problem is it's so obvious, yet has never been done before. What did the Empire need all their deathstars to? It's much simpler, just ram a planet with something in hyperspeed... Nah, it's such a breaker. I'm also not sure your defense of it is valid: What is EU? And TFA is part of the problem. I have to wonder though. If something like hyperdrives exist, why wouldn’t there be light-speed kamikaze maneuvers? I guess just no one ever bothers because it raises these nagging questions. The answer can be very simple. If we assume that it's possible to be in a state of FTL speed, it also follows that nothing in that reference frame can interact with anything in the sub-lightspeed reference frame. That's how most SF do it. And it has a grounding of sorts in physics. (Not everybody though. Noteworthy exceptions would be EE Doc Smith and Ian Banks, who use some sort of continuous speed. Rather Newtonian.) That doesn't mean that you can't invent fictive Space Opera reasons why the hyperdrive itself, or the initiation of hyperspeed, is/can be getting interference from nearby large masses. But that's a different thing, because it's an effect while still in sub-lightspeed.
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Post by griffith82 on Jun 29, 2018 0:30:14 GMT
If that’s all you want there’s plenty of porn out there. And you're saying that seriously? As if you think any porn ever can hold a candle to that? My point was that if that’s what you’re missing, there’s plenty of other options. I don’t need that in my movies to make them good.
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Deerber
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Claymore & Drell
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Post by Deerber on Jun 29, 2018 0:49:51 GMT
And does that clarification change anything about what I said before or after? It wasn't totally aimed at you, but at the general talk of 'bomb don't do that in space blah blah'. But your statement does tie into that, you said "Did it break my suspension of disbelief? Seeing bombs falling into space for no apparent reason did, so I hated the scene..." why did it break? if the answer is 'bomb don't do that in space blah blah' then we are back to ... it is the space movie equivalent of a spanish telenovela, stop looking for hard science because it has never been there in any of them. Is it really that hard to read a couple posts more accurately? While I agree with the tone of the post in general, there's a bunch of not really correct stuff here. What are you talking about with the more elliptical orbit? If they're all in orbit around the planet, and the bombs get pushed down, they go down and hit the ships below. No. What we can agree upon is that it's possible to push the bombs away on a trajectory that will hit those ships eventually. But pushing them just downward won't help. A ship in an orbit "below", will be travelling faster, both in terms of velocity and angular velocity. It will not "hold station" without using thrust. A bomb pushed downward will not gain angular velocity at that point. 90 degrees into the future, around the planet, it will, but by that time it will be well below. But that wasn't the the real issue. I think of that as rather as: Why are there free-fall bombers at all? They reasonably have a different purpose than throwing bombs into trajectories intercepting other ships? But as I said, I could be okay with the bombers. Ramming things while in hyperspace though, I can't buy. Biggest problem is it's so obvious, yet has never been done before. What did the Empire need all their deathstars for? It's much simpler, just ram a planet with something in hyperspeed... Nah, it's such a breaker. I'm also not sure your defense of it is valid: What is EU? And TFA is part of the problem. I don't know what you're getting at with the trajectories of those bombs, orbits and whatever. You're assuming lots of things you don't actually know. What you see in the movie is this: big evil badass ship right below bomber, with approximately the same velocity vector. If bombs pushed down, bombs hit big evil badass ship. It's not harder than that. We stand on the same ground as to the silliness of that (and many other things). EU is short for Expanded Universe, pretty much anything Star Wars-y that came out before this Disney shit, and the hyperspace thing is explained consistently through lots of EU medias. However, as I said, weapons based on that aren't nearly as powerful as TLJ makes them out to be.
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Post by Deerber on Jun 29, 2018 0:59:08 GMT
A comment about the FTL kamikaze thing: Not only is this thing coming out of nowhere, it also opens a giant plot hole in practically every story in the SW universe. Hell, if using an object traveling at FTL as a weapon was possible, the entire history of SW would be completely different. Death-star? No problem. Just use a single FTL kamikaze / missile / torpedo capable of FTL. A fleet of star destroyers with shields that you just can't break and entirely too much firepower? FTL etc. Super Star Destroyers? FTL etc. I'm not even sure why you would even need all the planet-killing weapons of that universe, after all, supposedly an object travelling at the speed of light (and certainly above) has infinite mass. Infinite mass hitting ANYTHING, simply means that whatever it hits is practically deleted from existence. It won't simply break a SSD in two, it will probably ANNIHILATE it and probably everything else in a fairly significant radius. (same probably goes if it hits something like a planet) It simply makes no sense, not from any vaguely realistic perspective, and not from in-universe perspective. It practically reeks of the disregard (or disdain) Johnson has for the SW canon. Why do people keep trying to apply physics to hyperspace and such? Let me break it to you: hyperspace is not covered by physics in any sort of meaningful way (yet, maybe). That means that we have absolutely zero fucking clues as to how an object traveling in hyperspace behaves. So as that FTL speed is achieved through means completely extraneous to our theories, you could not possibly apply them to this situation. Therefore you have no fucking clue as to whether the object in hyperspace would have infinite mass. Geee, you guys make it seem like I want to defend TLJ. It's the worst thing to happen to humanity since the flat earthers, but this whole hyperspace thing is very clearly and coherently explained in the EU, as I said before.
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Post by Deerber on Jun 29, 2018 1:21:49 GMT
Let me break it to you: hyperspace is not covered by physics in any sort of meaningful way (yet, maybe). That means that we have absolutely zero fucking clues as to how an object traveling in hyperspace behaves. So as that FTL speed is achieved through means completely extraneous to our theories, you could not possibly apply them to this situation. Therefore you have no fucking clue as to whether the object in hyperspace would have infinite mass. Geee, you guys make it seem like I want to defend TLJ. It's the worst thing to happen to humanity since the flat earthers, but this whole hyperspace thing is very clearly and coherently explained in the EU, as I said before. Chill dude. My main objection is related to internal consistency, the stuff about how an object travelling at FTL would react in reality is merely looking at this from another angle. I'm aware of how fantasy and Sci-Fi work, I know what suspension of disbelief means, my objection has nothing to do with any of this, and everything to do with the writer's apparent disdain for the setting. For all of ME3's failings, at least the writers made sure to close this potential plot-hole (not in a very elegant way, but still), by stating that using FTL as a weapon was simply impossible due to constraints inherent to the drives. Sorry, I might have come off too strongly, wasn't my intention. Apologies I just get a little fired up when people claim something is backed up by science/physics while it's not. It's the same reason I didn't enjoy Interstellar
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Evil
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Post by Evil on Jun 29, 2018 1:42:30 GMT
P.S. Of course, you could probably say something similar about the trench run in A New Hope. There really is no reason the fighters couldn't have just approached the exhaust point from above and gone straight down, or just started the run just a bit closer to avoid their vulnerability during the extended run. The trench run did actually have a practical purpose. All those guns on the death stars surface can't fire at you if they don't have line of sight, which of course they can't get if you're using the walls of the trench as cover. 2 dozen or so guns inside the trench are pretty tame compared to the hundreds on the rest of the surface. Those big slow guns aren't much of a threat to fighters if they're moving unpredictably, but they'd shred anything flying in a straight line for too long. Getting a missile lock on a small stationary target would require flying in a straight line. You could argue that they could have tried to shoot out the trench from outside of turret range I suppose. A better point to raise would be "who the fuck puts a bloody trench on the surface of a death star in the first place and why?" Of course, the real purpose of that whole setup is just to give Lucas an excuse to rip off the dambusters, but eh. At least he had decent taste in films to pilfer from, right?
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Obadiah
N5
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem
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Post by Obadiah on Jun 29, 2018 2:13:31 GMT
That the problem right there, Star Wars isn't a sci-fi movie, it's a Space Soap Opera and always has been. And does that clarification change anything about what I said before or after? I'll be honest, the first time I saw The Last Jedi, the characters sold the whole bombing run so well, it really didn't dawn on me that the bombs dropping was ridiculous. I just sort of assumed, "Well, if the in-universe character think this is how its supposed to work, then I guess it is." The only thing that stuck me as dumb was the bombers all together getting wiped by one tie fighter ramming them. Of course afterwards, yeah, canons firing in a parabola? Lol!
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