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Post by masterwarderz on Sept 25, 2018 14:28:53 GMT
As someone who's never seen it knowing where to start is the problem. It's an incredibly daunting franchise with prequels, sequels, books, pre-Disney, post-Disney etc etc. Is it as easy as following the chronological order of release? (It was the massive amount of Lore collected by Star Wars fans and the adults trying to add logic to a magical space universe that ruined the Last Jedi honestly.) See, when you say stupid shit like that, that is why the thread disagrees with your assertion and throws you into the camp with the deniers on the internet. .___. "Oh no, you guys are just a bunch of sexist manbabies, how dare you not fucking adore Disney, give the mouse all your money you backward savages!" Still sunk fucking Solo so meh
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Post by N7Pathfinder on Sept 25, 2018 14:47:10 GMT
(It was the massive amount of Lore collected by Star Wars fans and the adults trying to add logic to a magical space universe that ruined the Last Jedi honestly.) See, when you say stupid shit like that, that is why the thread disagrees with your assertion and throws you into the camp with the deniers on the internet. .___. "Oh no, you guys are just a bunch of sexist manbabies, how dare you not fucking adore Disney, give the mouse all your money you backward savages!" Still sunk fucking Solo so meh I don't claim to be an expert on storytelling especially for something like Star Wars. I also totally get why people dislike the Last Jedi. At the same time, I don't believe that movie deserves all the hate it gets. Nor do I think Disney's take is worth getting worked up about considering they've only been working on the Star Wars franchise for six years and only released 4 movies. I personally noticed that the majority of the fan criticism towards this movie either has to do with the movie not lining up with their perception of the lore, which includes complaining about the sudden force abilities and powers shown in the movie. Indeed, simply saying "because magic" is an unfair thing to say and doesn't automatically equal good storytelling. Then again, I think it makes better sense in Star Wars because unlike say, Harry Potter, the rules of the Force aren't that well defined. Heck, there are things even the great Jedi masters of old who didn't know everything about the Force. It's still a mysterious thing in the Old Republic, and throughout Star Wars history has been known to do some weird ass things! To many to list right now, but I'll definitely get around to it. And for the record, I never called anyone here a sexist manbaby.
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Post by N7Pathfinder on Sept 25, 2018 15:05:37 GMT
It was the massive amount of Lore collected by Star Wars fans and the adults trying to add logic to a magical space universe that ruined the Last Jedi honestly. God I hate this argument. Magic doesn't mean you can do absolutely fucking anything, because magic! Suspension of disbelief does not work that way!! You have your magical element that does what you establish it does, and everything else follows the natural, logical order of things, unless you establish some other clear reason why it doesn't. Saying, "fuck logic, because magic" to this extreme means you can literally vomit anything on the screen and we can't question it because magic. If absolutely anything can happen, then everything is meaningless. The other implication that better lore "ruined" the Last Travesty, is also terrible, but I can only raise my blood pressure so high. Okay, using the whole "it's magic" argument is kind of stupid. But, if we're trying follow the established order of things with the Force, allow me to list a few things the Force could be capable of: (bear in mind, all of these happened in Star Wars mythology. Some from the Legends EU, others from the current canon) - 1. Draining the Force out of other users - 2. A Force Barricade that blocked incoming debris or even gas. - 3. Force Immunity that prevents the person from being influenced by mental tricks. - 4. Force Fire (yes, you could create fire out of the Force, that was a thing) - 5. Switching bodies - 6. Hyperspace travel (the Force powered the first hyperdrives) - 7. Healing wounds and even raising the dead (We saw Force Heal in a New Hope) - 8. Levitation - 9. The Force guides the lightsaber (something established in a New Hope) - 10. Force Scream (The Nooooo! that was capable of creating shockwaves that wrecked the surrounding environment) - 11. Creating Dopplegangers. - 12. Invisibility - 13. Being able to breath in space. (I'm not referring to the Last Jedi here, but the novel Lords of the Sith where Darth Vader FLEW THROUGH SPACE!) - 14. Morphing into animals. Conclusion: The Force had done some WEIRD stuff for the past 40 years! It's never really had that well defined "rules" if you will.
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Post by CrutchCricket on Sept 25, 2018 15:08:16 GMT
Then again, I think it makes better sense in Star Wars because unlike say, Harry Potter, the rules of the Force aren't that well defined. What makes you think the Force is less defined than magic in Harry Potter? Both have several institutions, established for generations specifically for the purpose of research and developing their respective magics, as well as training young initiates in their ways from an early age. Both have specific training regimens, techniques and aspects they can specialize in. In both cases adherents commit their life to studying and expanding their understanding of the magic, as well as practicing their aspect and applying their principles. Well, here the comparison breaks down a little bit as adult wizards are shown to settle into a routine that makes magic almost mundane (self-scrubbing pans anyone?). Indeed the Force is more rigid as there are only a couple of techniques and uses most practitioners use (enhanced senses, telekineses, a bit of healing, lightning for the dark side), with other more esoteric stuff (Force ghosts, battle meditation, Sith Sorcery) being presented as very esoteric, very rare and only available to a handful. Compare that to HP magic, where everyone learns dozens if not hundreds of spells and can pull random enchantments out of their ass at a moment's notice (again, self-scrubbing pans, but also seemingly alive paintings, maps that track people, candy that simulates every conceivable flavor etc) and create their own spells (Sectum Sempra). Effects are also a lot more inconsistent in HP. Harry's invisibility cloak is one of the most power artifacts in that world, possibly once wielded by Death itself, but Weasley's car can turn invisible seemingly as an add-on feature. The design intentions of the magic systems were very different. How does Luke first get trained? Put a helmet over your eyes, while this floating ball shoots at you. Very martial-artsy. What's the first class in Harry Potter? A teacher literally turns into a cat and back again. The Force is much more minimalist, you don't see the really crazy shit on day one.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Sept 25, 2018 15:45:15 GMT
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Post by N7Pathfinder on Sept 25, 2018 15:51:14 GMT
Then again, I think it makes better sense in Star Wars because unlike say, Harry Potter, the rules of the Force aren't that well defined. What makes you think the Force is less defined than magic in Harry Potter? Both have several institutions, established for generations specifically for the purpose of research and developing their respective magics, as well as training young initiates in their ways from an early age. Both have specific training regimens, techniques and aspects they can specialize in. In both cases adherents commit their life to studying and expanding their understanding of the magic, as well as practicing their aspect and applying their principles. Well, here the comparison breaks down a little bit as adult wizards are shown to settle into a routine that makes magic almost mundane (self-scrubbing pans anyone?). Indeed the Force is more rigid as there are only a couple of techniques and uses most practitioners use (enhanced senses, telekineses, a bit of healing, lightning for the dark side), with other more esoteric stuff (Force ghosts, battle meditation, Sith Sorcery) being presented as very esoteric, very rare and only available to a handful. Compare that to HP magic, where everyone learns dozens if not hundreds of spells and can pull random enchantments out of their ass at a moment's notice (again, self-scrubbing pans, but also seemingly alive paintings, maps that track people, candy that simulates every conceivable flavor etc) and create their own spells (Sectum Sempra). Effects are also a lot more inconsistent in HP. Harry's invisibility cloak is one of the most power artifacts in that world, possibly once wielded by Death itself, but Weasley's car can turn invisible seemingly as an add-on feature. The design intentions of the magic systems were very different. How does Luke first get trained? Put a helmet over your eyes, while this floating ball shoots at you. Very martial-artsy. What's he first class in Harry Potter? A teacher literally turns into a cat and back again. The Force is much more minimalist, you don't see the really crazy shit on day one. Well, what about in the worlds that these magic systems inhabit in? In Harry Potter, magic is commonplace and the masters of magic can easily teach people all there is to know about magic. Sure, new discoveries are frequently made, but the magic in Harry Potter is more or less already defined with countless textbooks and professors and whatnot. The Force, in Star Wars lore, is still a major mystery. Even the wisest masters in Star Wars lore don't know everything about the Force, as many records of ancient Jedi practices have been lost in time. Force Ghosts themselves are surprisingly a new thing in the universe's history, with Qui-Gon Jinn being the first to discover it's existence and Yoda being the first to properly complete the training necessary for it. It's also worth noting that unlike Harry Potter, the Force is known to suddenly act out and do its own thing for unknown reasons. Rebels had entire plotline featuring the Jedi characters trying to figure out why the force keeps leading them to specific places or certain characters. While you could make the argument that Harry Potter also has magic that acts out, you can also make the argument it usually happens to young kids and that often times the magic was the result of their intentions, they just don't go they way they planned them. (Harry was made at Dudley for shoving him and wanted payback, snake glass dissapears. Harry was pissed off at this Aunt Marge, she ends up ballooning and flying away).
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Post by N7Pathfinder on Sept 25, 2018 16:07:55 GMT
This video talks about the Soft Magic system, which is how I view Star Wars' The Force. While I can't claim this to defend the Last Jedi for it's usage of the Force in the narrative, I still think its an interesting thing to think about when discuss what the Force can and can't do.
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Post by House Targaryen on Sept 25, 2018 16:15:51 GMT
Read something on Facebook about Rey being a product of Han and Qi'ra. Come on people think. Rey would be far older in the movie if she was. Now maybe a granddaughter from those two.
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Post by CrutchCricket on Sept 25, 2018 16:19:27 GMT
Well, what about in the worlds that these magic systems inhabit in? In Harry Potter, magic is commonplace and the masters of magic can easily teach people all there is to know about magic. Sure, new discoveries are frequently made, but the magic in Harry Potter is more or less already defined with countless textbooks and professors and whatnot. The Force, in Star Wars lore, is still a major mystery. Even the wisest masters in Star Wars lore don't know everything about the Force, as many records of ancient Jedi practices have been lost in time. Force Ghosts themselves are surprisingly a new thing in the universe's history, with Qui-Gon Jinn being the first to discover it's existence and Yoda being the first to properly complete the training necessary for it. It's also worth noting that unlike Harry Potter, the Force is known to suddenly act out and do its own thing for unknown reasons. Rebels had entire plotline featuring the Jedi characters trying to figure out why the force keeps leading them to specific places or certain characters. While you could make the argument that Harry Potter also has magic that acts out, you can also make the argument it usually happens to young kids and that often times the magic was the result of their intentions, they just don't go they way they planned them. (Harry was made at Dudley for shoving him and wanted payback, snake glass dissapears. Harry was pissed off at this Aunt Marge, she ends up ballooning and flying away). Err not really. Wizards are a minority compared to muggles, it only seems common place because they separate themselves and we only deal with their world. If the Jedi were to Men in Black their existence as well and then we saw a story only from their perspective, it'd be the same thing. The only difference is the Force is a part of all life in teh Star Wars galaxy, whether you can use it or not, whereas muggles may have nothing to do with magic at all. The Force seeming to have a will of its own sometimes and dipping into the role of pseudo-deity is perhaps the one factor that makes it more nebulous than magic but I argue that's only applicable when that dip happens. Even then, its "will" is still rooted in reacting to the actions of its practitioners. The most egregious example is of course the Chosen One. The prophecy, the balance, all that seems cosmic in nature, but if you know the whole story, you know that Anakin really came about because of Plagueis and Palpatine's shenanigans. The action-reaction there is a lot more mechanical than ethereal. Sure, the Jedi would like to believe the Force needs balance (and the light side needs to be on top) but really, a lot of it just boils down to actions, reactions and ripples in the Force. Which makes sense. If everything's connected, you can have butterfly effect-like phenomena occur without any sort of intelligent will, and the system can be understood, even if it isn't by the level of current organic thought. As for the available lore in-universe, wizards have not gone through the several levels of purges that the Jedi (and especially Sith) have gone through (at least, as far as we know). We're also dealing with 5,000 years of Force-user history where we can confirm different levels of knowledge. While the history of wizards is probably as old as I believe they're implied to have always existed alongside human civilization, there is no ancient times equivalent. It's very possible magical lore was lost in Harry Potter as well. Some lore is actively suppressed (creation of Horcruxes) so it's also possible some knowledge was willingly purged. Finally, spell creation seems to suggest there's no real cap on how much can be known anyway. Thing is, the magical effects of HP, whether they're through spells, enchantments, potions or creatures seem to be a lot more varied, random and spontaneous, whereas the Force seems like a more standardized set with a few esoteric outliers that get forgotten/rediscovered once in a while.
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Post by mybudgee on Sept 25, 2018 16:21:11 GMT
Harry Potter is dumbed- down STAR WARS
it is known
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Post by N7Pathfinder on Sept 25, 2018 16:35:13 GMT
I think what I'm trying to say is that the Force is capable of a lot of things, sometimes for reasons even the characters don't fully know. As a result, I don't think it's necessarily fair to criticize a narrative if the Force does something super powerful you've never seen before. Nor is it appropriate to just assume that a Force ability presented had to be taught or trained for.
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Post by Iakus on Sept 25, 2018 16:47:18 GMT
I think what I'm trying to say is that the Force is capable of a lot of things, sometimes for reasons even the characters don't fully know. As a result, I don't think it's necessarily fair to criticize a narrative if the Force does something super powerful you've never seen before. Nor is it appropriate to just assume that a Force ability presented had to be taught or trained for. When it's been demonstrated that it takes concentration and effort for a neophyte for user to raise a single rock, you need a reason to explain why someone who's an even bigger neophyte is able to life tons of rubble almost effortlessly.
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Post by CrutchCricket on Sept 25, 2018 16:54:03 GMT
I think what I'm trying to say is that the Force is capable of a lot of things, sometimes for reasons even the characters don't fully know. As a result, I don't think it's necessarily fair to criticize a narrative if the Force does something super powerful you've never seen before. Nor is it appropriate to just assume that a Force ability presented had to be taught or trained for.If the Force does something super powerful no one's seen before, ideally it should be in a work devoted to explaining how it came about, even if the explanation is nebulous in the vein of A did magic B at time C and according to ancient lore D, therefore conclusion. Any of those points might still be criticized, as might its role in the story, but at least it's better than a pure asspull, followed by "STFU, it's magic". The underlined's where you really lose me though. Regardless of how few rules you think the Force has, one of the already established rules is that the Force requires strenuous training to master even the basic level. So someone pulling off some high level powers with zero training will never fly. Ever. If you like the HP comparisons, that's like first year Harry pulling out Avada Kedavra, because Chosen One. Ridiculous. At best you might have some random, instinctual effects. Lights flicker, things fly at random, glass disappears etc. In the context of Star Wars, that's usually stuff like faster reflexes, abnormally good intuition about things and so on.
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Post by mybudgee on Sept 25, 2018 17:24:40 GMT
..Nor is it appropriate to just assume that a Force ability presented had to be taught or trained for. *sigh*
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Post by N7Pathfinder on Sept 25, 2018 17:33:08 GMT
In terms of some of the weird stuff done in The Last Jedi:
- Leia little space flight is not as completely unbelievable as you might think. In Lords of the Sith (a canon novel), Darth Vader actually flew through the vacuum of Space without dying (his suit is not as super protective and airtight as you may think). As for how Leia did that since she most likely wasn't taught that anytime during the 30 year gap between movies, I have no idea.
- Force Ghost Yoda being able to strike lightning is a brand new thing to the Star Wars canon. It's important to note that in the universe's history and current canon, the Force Ghost is a relatively new thing, so abilities can be added if they need be. You can also argue that in both Empire and Return, the Force Ghosts tend to have more of a presence and even interact with the physical environment if the planet is strong in the Force, like Dagobah. It would be safe to say that Ach-To, the location of the very first Jedi Temple, is also super strong in the show.
- The Force communication between two different people was established in Empire when Luke and Vader were able to contact each other, but in the Last Jedi it was intentionally created by Snoke to lure Rey into a trap.
- The ability to project yourself over super long distances is also a new thing, but the movie clearly showed that it took a lot of effort for Luke to do it, even killing him.
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Post by N7Pathfinder on Sept 25, 2018 17:52:50 GMT
If the Force does something super powerful no one's seen before, ideally it should be in a work devoted to explaining how it came about, even if the explanation is nebulous in the vein of A did magic B at time C and according to ancient lore D, therefore conclusion. Any of those points might still be criticized, as might its role in the story, but at least it's better than a pure asspull, followed by "STFU, it's magic". Ideally, maybe. Required, no. I am a super firm believer in the concept that it's the filmmaker's responsibility to explain their story without having the audiences rely on external sources to truly appreciate or understand. It's one of the reasons I would never support Batman vs Superman even if I would watch the Extended Cut because I don't want to spend extra money just to get the full story. I know this is sounding hypocritical from someone who was JUST listing stuff that Force has done in Extended Universe content, but I didn't feel like the usage of the Force insulted my intelligence when watching the Last Jedi, with only two exceptions. This is because when I watch a movie, I either try to listen to the exposition provided or try to connect the visual clues presented that should provide a simple answer. If a brand new Force power was introduced, I would interpret the things on the screen and any prior knowledge to draw a proper logical conclusion that may or may not be correct.
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Post by CrutchCricket on Sept 25, 2018 18:00:21 GMT
In terms of some of the weird stuff done in The Last Jedi: - Leia little space flight is not as completely unbelievable as you might think. In Lords of the Sith (a canon novel), Darth Vader actually flew through the vacuum of Space without dying (his suit is not as super protective and airtight as you may think). As for how Leia did that since she most likely wasn't taught that anytime during the 30 year gap between movies, I have no idea. And that's the problem. There is precedent in the EU for Jedi "cold-shirting" it through vacuum. However the two Jedi I know of were Luke Skywalker and Satele Shan- both Jedi Grand Masters.- Force Ghost Yoda being able to strike lightning is a brand new thing to the Star Wars canon. It's important to note that in the universe's history and current canon, the Force Ghost is a relatively new thing, so abilities can be added if they need be. You can also argue that in both Empire and Return, the Force Ghosts tend to have more of a presence and even interact with the physical environment if the planet is strong in the Force, like Dagobah. It would be safe to say that Ach-To, the location of the very first Jedi Temple, is also super strong in the show. Force Ghosts were seen affected by lightning in Force Unleashed (albeit the non-canon dark side AU). As a manifestation of pure Force energy, this is not out of the realm of possibility. That being said, use of lightning (often seen as supremely evil) by Yoda the ultimate good of the series, is pretty much sacrilege- The Force communication between two different people was established in Empire when Luke and Vader were able to contact each other, but in the Last Jedi it was intentionally created by Snoke to lure Rey into a trap. Seems legit- The ability to project yourself over super long distances is also a new thing, but the movie clearly showed that it took a lot of effort for Luke to do it, even killing him. There was a technique to do this, but it was pretty rare, and required projecting onto another lifeform, instead of just mid-air hologram-ing it. There was also a Sith version that tied it to the lifeline of a lifeform, which meant that striking down the illusion would kill the creature it was attached to.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Sept 25, 2018 18:06:52 GMT
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Post by Ocelot on Sept 25, 2018 18:16:40 GMT
Please spare them the sequels... They're innocent children He already showed them Jabba's Palace. Nothing in the sequels was worse than that slog. Really? Aside from the entire plan beign stupid elaborate, I liked the Jabba palace part.
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Post by mybudgee on Sept 25, 2018 18:24:52 GMT
Conclusion: The Force had done some WEIRD stuff for the past 40 years! It's never really had that well defined "rules" if you will. None of the examples you mentioned support the point you are trying to make. Cognitive dissonance is one helluva drug
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Sept 25, 2018 18:26:55 GMT
He already showed them Jabba's Palace. Nothing in the sequels was worse than that slog. Really? Aside from the entire plan beign stupid elaborate, I liked the Jabba palace part. It was way too long. A third of the entire film is the Jabba's Palace stuff. If they made it shorter, like say 15 minutes instead of 40, then it would have been fine. Plus I was never a really big fan of Han, and that's the only reason why that whole sequence exists. While I love the last third of the film, the first third drags it down to being a lot lower on my Star Wars list than the other two OT films.
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Iakus on Sept 25, 2018 18:33:03 GMT
Really? Aside from the entire plan beign stupid elaborate, I liked the Jabba palace part. It was way too long. A third of the entire film is the Jabba's Palace stuff. If they made it shorter, like say 15 minutes instead of 40, then it would have been fine. Plus I was never a really big fan of Han, and that's the only reason why that whole sequence exists. While I love the last third of the film, the first third drags it down to being a lot lower on my Star Wars list than the other two OT films. It was holding the attention of a 4-year old DO YOU KNOW HOW DIFFICULT THAT IS!!!?
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR
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Post by Ocelot on Sept 25, 2018 18:36:52 GMT
Really? Aside from the entire plan beign stupid elaborate, I liked the Jabba palace part. It was way too long. A third of the entire film is the Jabba's Palace stuff. If they made it shorter, like say 15 minutes instead of 40, then it would have been fine. Plus I was never a really big fan of Han, and that's the only reason why that whole sequence exists. While I love the last third of the film, the first third drags it down to being a lot lower on my Star Wars list than the other two OT films. For me its that I like the first part of the movie, then it gets dragged down a bit on Endor, because Ewoks, and then when the space battle starts, its great again.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 26, 2018 2:31:15 GMT
Harry Potter is dumbed- down STAR WARS
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Darth Dennis
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Jul 27, 2022 16:20:32 GMT
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masterwarderz
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Post by masterwarderz on Sept 26, 2018 2:40:42 GMT
Conclusion: The Force had done some WEIRD stuff for the past 40 years! It's never really had that well defined "rules" if you will. None of the examples you mentioned support the point you are trying to make. There is a fairly common saying that everything is possible with the Force, however, this is only in theory. A Force-user takes a life-time to achieve anything approaching true mastery. And even that usually only in some very particular fields. (Well, at least that's how it used to be until Rey came along) Bane came as close as any Sith up to Palpatine but by the time he was actually achieving a broad mastery, aging and degeneration caught up. But there never has been any one Force Sensitive in the history who mastered "everything" Simple too much, spread across too far a distance.
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