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N3
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Post by Thrombin on Dec 5, 2016 9:57:43 GMT
Possibility is all we need to make the fact that the Reapers didn't target the AI perfectly acceptable. Why go out of your way to come up with other possibilities which conflict with the premise of MEA when we've a perfectly good one which explains it? Actually it was using the MW as an experiment. Dialogue from the Leviathan DLC: Shep: But what's the point of all these harvests? Leviathan: The intelligence has one purpose: preservation of life. That purpose has not been fulfilled. It directed the Reapers to create the mass relays - to speed the time between cycles for greatest efficiency. The galaxy itself became an experiment. Evolution its tool. Shep: Will it ever end? Leviathan: Unknown. Until the intelligence finds what it is looking for, the harvest will continue. It would be completely logical to set up more experiments in other galaxies and expand its pool of evolutionary data. I'm not saying it happened, all I'm saying is it's logical for such a thing to happen. Ok, they used the word experiment. They have also used the word 'solution'. In any case, it doesn't change any of my earlier points. The Reaping solution is experimental. Fine. We know it was subject to revision because that's what happened with the ending when Shepard showed it wouldn't work. I haven't forgotten that at all. However, I think you underestimate the size of the Universe. I don't care how long-lived the Reapers are. The Universe would have suffered heat death before they could visit every part of every Galaxy never mind do so regularly and repeatedly enough to stop tech from developing too far in every one of them! I know computers (I've been a programmer for over 40 years). If the solution was to preserve life in the Universe they would not have proposed the Reapings because that would not have been a feasible solution on a Universal scale. Ergo, that was never the goal. The only thing that explains them believing the Reapings could work is if the goal was limited to the MW. Which, itself, makes perfect sense because the Leviathans would never have tasked them with such a ridiculous goal as to encompass the entire Universe. They would only have been interested in preserving their own Galaxy and so would, logically, only have set their AI to look for a way of saving life in the MW. Who said they were stopping people escaping to another Galaxy? Quote me one source. They wanted people dependent on mass-effect technology and the relay network and they wanted Galactic government to be centered around the Citadel so that they could swoop in, wipe out the command and control of the Galaxy and shut down the network as soon as they arrived leaving everyone restricted to FTL speeds which they could easily exceed. There's no evidence at all that they would object to anyone fleeing the Milky Way if such a thing were possible (which previously it hasn't been). I don't see any flaw. It's only a flaw if you follow the flawed logic that they would care about other Galaxies. You can come up with plausible theories that they might and why they might but you can also come up with equally plausible (I would argue more plausible) theories why they might not. Why expend thought processes trying to come up with reasons to make something a flaw when you have already admitted that my view, in which it isn't a flaw, is a possibility?
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Fen'Harel Faceman
N7
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Workin' so hard, to make it easy.
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Post by Fen'Harel Faceman on Dec 5, 2016 10:39:17 GMT
Who said they were stopping people escaping to another Galaxy? Quote me one source. Quote you one source? All three games. The Reapers made races dependent on the mass relays. No ship had FTL capabilities that could get them to another galaxy. Period. That was because the Reapers had the sentient races develop along paths that kept them dependent on the Reaper technology and the Citadel. So thus.... no race advanced far enough to travel to other galaxies. This isn't rocket science, it's just paying attention to the story. I can't believe you're even trying to argue with me about this point. The whole new FTL system they use for Andromeda is totally outside the established lore of the first three games. The whole premise would have been a lot more plausible as some desperate last gasp and maybe they'd gotten a hold of some Reaper tech that hinted on how they were able to travel at FTL without worrying about static discharge or fuel problems, etc. This project just coming up with the drive on their own, bad idea. And hey, maybe something like that or whatever will come out as we learn more about the game. But as it stands now it's just a wince-worthy don't-care-about-the-lore or previous story mistake. Edit: And letting any races escape the Reapers harvest by going to another galaxy totally ruins any drama that was built up in the first three games. The whole point was that there was no escape and no defeating the Reapers.
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Post by Tosh on Dec 5, 2016 10:54:36 GMT
Bioware botched the timeline up big time. All the more evidence that they don't concern themselves with Milky Way Mass Effect anymore, which can be good if you believe Andromeda has to abandon it's with the old trilogy or bad if you desire series continuity. The ending took away any real hope of there being some continuity in the Milky Way side of the MEU. They'd basically have to just pick an ending and roll with it for that to work, or go back and keep the franchise planted firmly within the pre-reaper war timeline, neither of which seem like particularly desirable options. I once suggested a theory that BW could have a story in which a malfunction with an element zero supercharged Mass Relay created by accident a time portal to the past and accidently allowed an experimental military craft to go to the past and alter the Reaper war. Thus, allowing BW to have a single canon ending.
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Post by themikefest on Dec 5, 2016 16:23:03 GMT
I'm curious that only half the Nexus is traveling to Andromeda and the other half is built upon arrival. Was the project behind schedule that it was decided to send only half to be completed in Andromeda? Or was there concern with the middle portion, the ring part, not being able to withstand the stress of the trip to Andromeda? Or why not build both halves and add the ring part after arriving in Andromeda? It also could be this was their intention the whole time. Just curious is all.
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Post by Element Zero on Dec 5, 2016 16:44:45 GMT
I'm curious that only half the Nexus is traveling to Andromeda and the other half is built upon arrival. Was the project behind schedule that it was decided to send only half to be completed in Andromeda? Or was there concern with the middle portion, the ring part, not being able to withstand the stress of the trip to Andromeda? Or why not build both halves and add the ring part after arriving in Andromeda? It also could be this was their intention the whole time. Just curious is all. Maybe the Nexus is to become a far less mobile structure once in Andromeda? Clearly, it's unlikely to make a return trip to the Milky Way, but I mean that it could become more of a space station than a traveling vessel in Andromeda. The Citadel could close its arms for defense and/or travel, but the Nexus' design affords no such option. (I'll bet few truly contemplated the Citadel traveling in 2185.) It could simply be that moving that huge upper wing at FTL requires an insane amount of eezo. Moving the completed structure will require a fiscally unreasonable amount, so they decided to finish the Nexus upon arrival in Andromeda, where they can mine and refine their own eezo. I'm curious about this thing, too. It definitely gives us a nice, visible, in-game progress tracker for the MW effort.
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Post by Vortex13 on Dec 5, 2016 17:04:40 GMT
Hey here's a question regarding the timeline and ME:Andromeda.
During the gameplay trailer we see Ryder using the N7 Piranha, but how is that possible since we are told that the Arks left before ME 2 and the description for the gun in question specifically states that it was created during the Reaper war by the Alliance?
EDIT:
Here's the the description per the mass effect wiki.
The N7 Piranha is an assault shotgun designed for the Reaper war. When the N7 program began training alien resistance forces, the lighter-bodied species wanted a low-recoil weapon with a wide pellet spread for dealing with hordes of husks. The result was the Piranha, which hit a sweet spot in close-range firepower. Its rapid-fire capability tears apart not only husks but most opponents unlucky enough to be in its way.
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Post by Element Zero on Dec 5, 2016 17:52:18 GMT
Hey here's a question regarding the timeline and ME:Andromeda. During the gameplay trailer we see Ryder using the N7 Piranha, but how is that possible since we are told that the Arks left before ME 2 and the description for the gun in question specifically states that it was created during the Reaper war by the Alliance? EDIT: Here's the the description per the mass effect wiki. The N7 Piranha is an assault shotgun designed for the Reaper war. When the N7 program began training alien resistance forces, the lighter-bodied species wanted a low-recoil weapon with a wide pellet spread for dealing with hordes of husks. The result was the Piranha, which hit a sweet spot in close-range firepower. Its rapid-fire capability tears apart not only husks but most opponents unlucky enough to be in its way.Pffft. You weren't supposed to have read that. As wise Master Yoda once said, "You must unlearn what you have learned." Nice catch. I hope there are too many lore hiccups like this. I'll give them a pass on a few minor ones like weapons.
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Thrombin
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem
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Post by Thrombin on Dec 5, 2016 17:52:44 GMT
Who said they were stopping people escaping to another Galaxy? Quote me one source. Quote you one source? All three games. The Reapers made races dependent on the mass relays. No ship had FTL capabilities that could get them to another galaxy. Period. That was because the Reapers had the sentient races develop along paths that kept them dependent on the Reaper technology and the Citadel. So thus.... no race advanced far enough to travel to other galaxies. This isn't rocket science, it's just paying attention to the story. I can't believe you're even trying to argue with me about this point. The whole new FTL system they use for Andromeda is totally outside the established lore of the first three games. I agree that the Reapers made the races dependent on the Relays. I agree that no ship has FTL capabilities to get them to another Galaxy (apart from the AI ships, of course). I agree that the relays were a means by which the Reapers could cause the races to develop along paths that kept them dependent on the Reaper technology and the Citadel. In fact, I have pretty much said all that in my previous post. You seem to be equating all that with the Reapers wanting to keep people within the Milky Way Galaxy. There is no reason to conclude that at all! To the best of my knowledge, the games made no mention of that being a Reaper aim and, as I have already explained, it is perfectly reasonable for it not to be an aim. Nothing that happened in the trilogy is contradicted by the Reapers not caring about other Galaxies or about the other races going there. Needless to say, I disagree on all points. In my opinion, as previously explained, there's nothing implausible about the MEA premise and nothing contradictory about the premise. Furthermore, a premise based on a bunch of people running away from a threat is not a very inspiring premise. Particular when old players already know that the threat was neutralized and new players won't know anything about this threat at all. The new game should be a new start and have nothing to do with the adversaries of the previous game. Much better to make it a premise about intrepid adventurers and pioneers, bravely exploring new frontiers in order to push the achievements and knowledge and reach of their respective races to new heights. In other words the premise we've been given. If the Reapers or Cerberus have anything to do with MEA I will be extremely disappointed. As for ruining the drama, I don't buy that either. For one thing, we've already experienced the drama. Time for new drama! But, also, so what if a few tens of thousands escape the initial cull? Our drama was on saving trillions, our way of life and our home planet. Building more Arks would not have been an option. They'd never be able to save more than a fraction of the population even if they could have built them in time. If you don't like the idea that the Reapers would have let the AI escape then, even that isn't a problem. Like I said in an earlier post, once the Reapers arrive they methodically wipe out all of the target races over a period of centuries. They let them flee whereever they want but sooner or later they just track them down, wherever they have hidden, and destroy them. The AI would be sitting ducks. The Reapers could spend centuries cleaning up the MW and then chase after the AI and destroy them long before they reached Andromeda. There's no reason for them to be a priority to Sovereign even if you don't go with my previous assertion that they wouldn't care about anyone leaving.
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Post by azarhal on Dec 5, 2016 17:54:52 GMT
Hey here's a question regarding the timeline and ME:Andromeda. During the gameplay trailer we see Ryder using the N7 Piranha, but how is that possible since we are told that the Arks left before ME 2 and the description for the gun in question specifically states that it was created during the Reaper war by the Alliance? What you think is a N7 Piranha might not be a N7 Piranha. Just like the Paladin is a Carniflex variant.
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Post by Element Zero on Dec 5, 2016 18:01:12 GMT
Needless to say, I disagree on all points.
Looks like you guys could probably agree to disagree. This argument, much like the Reapers' cycles, has repeated across countless threads. Think we could let it rest in this one?
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Post by Element Zero on Dec 5, 2016 18:11:02 GMT
Hey here's a question regarding the timeline and ME:Andromeda. During the gameplay trailer we see Ryder using the N7 Piranha, but how is that possible since we are told that the Arks left before ME 2 and the description for the gun in question specifically states that it was created during the Reaper war by the Alliance? What you think is a N7 Piranha might not be a N7 Piranha. Just like the Paladin is a Carniflex variant. Meh. It looks exactly like the Piranha. Plus, the Paladin was a derivative of the Carnifex. The Piranha is the original, though, and therefore couldn't be preceded by another model. The writers can definitely retcon this little error, but Vortex13 caught'em.
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Post by themikefest on Dec 5, 2016 18:30:31 GMT
Meh. It looks exactly like the Piranha. Plus, the Paladin was a derivative of the Carnifex. The Piranha is the original, though, and therefore couldn't be preceded by another model. The writers can definitely retcon this little error, but Vortex13 caught'em. They were caught when thermal clips were found during Jacob's loyalty mission.
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Post by Element Zero on Dec 5, 2016 18:51:35 GMT
Meh. It looks exactly like the Piranha. Plus, the Paladin was a derivative of the Carnifex. The Piranha is the original, though, and therefore couldn't be preceded by another model. The writers can definitely retcon this little error, but Vortex13 caught'em. They were caught when thermal clips were found during Jacob's loyalty mission. I like the mission itself. I hate those damned thermal clips, there more than anywhere else.
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Post by themikefest on Dec 5, 2016 18:53:56 GMT
Maybe the Nexus is to become a far less mobile structure once in Andromeda? Clearly, it's unlikely to make a return trip to the Milky Way, but I mean that it could become more of a space station than a traveling vessel in Andromeda. The Citadel could close its arms for defense and/or travel, but the Nexus' design affords no such option. (I'll bet few truly contemplated the Citadel traveling in 2185.) It could simply be that moving that huge upper wing at FTL requires an insane amount of eezo. Moving the completed structure will require a fiscally unreasonable amount, so they decided to finish the Nexus upon arrival in Andromeda, where they can mine and refine their own eezo. I'm curious about this thing, too. It definitely gives us a nice, visible, in-game progress tracker for the MW effort. That's very possible and makes sense.
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Fen'Harel Faceman
N7
GIF Addict
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Workin' so hard, to make it easy.
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Post by Fen'Harel Faceman on Dec 5, 2016 22:43:54 GMT
I agree that the Reapers made the races dependent on the Relays. I agree that no ship has FTL capabilities to get them to another Galaxy (apart from the AI ships, of course). I agree that the relays were a means by which the Reapers could cause the races to develop along paths that kept them dependent on the Reaper technology and the Citadel. In fact, I have pretty much said all that in my previous post. You seem to be equating all that with the Reapers wanting to keep people within the Milky Way Galaxy. There is no reason to conclude that at all! To the best of my knowledge, the games made no mention of that being a Reaper aim and, as I have already explained, it is perfectly reasonable for it not to be an aim. Nothing that happened in the trilogy is contradicted by the Reapers not caring about other Galaxies or about the other races going there. I kept waiting for you to build an argument to support your statement above and you didn't. What exactly led you to believe that the Reapers didn't want anyone to escape? I already know you believe this, but you... okay let's get to my response because I actually have story logic to support my argument, rather than just an opinion. Let's explore your unsupported premise that the Reapers were some apathetic beings who didn't care if species escaped. Your entire argument isn't examples of what happens in the story anywhere, it's that the games didn't specifically say the Reapers didn't want anyone to escape. But there are many ways they say they didn't want anyone to escape. This is going to get repetitive but you seem to need this drawn out for you dot by dot. They build Mass Relays so species won't advance enough to escape. They build the Citadel so that species will use it as an important hub for government... because they don't care if species escape the galaxy? No, it's to stop species from advancing, spring a surprise attack, shut down all the mass relays, and then leisurely harvest the species. Vigil: But the Citadel is a trap. The station is actually an enormous mass relay. One that links to dark space, the empty void beyond the galaxy's horizon. When the Citadel relay is activated, the Reapers will pour through. And all you know will be destroyed. Shep: How come nobody noticed the Citadel was a mass relay? Vigil: Because the Reapers are careful to keep the greatest secrets of the Citadel hidden. That is why they created a species of seemingly benign organic caretakers. The keepers maintain the station's most basic functions. They enable any species that discovers the Citadel to use it without fully understanding the technology. Shep: The Reapers can wipe the Council and the entire Citadel fleet in a single surprise attack! Vigil: That was our fate. Our leaders were dead before we even realized we were under attack. The Reapers seized control of the Citadel and through it, the mass relays. Communication and transportation across our empire were crippled. Each star system was isolated, cut off from the others. Easy prey for the Reaper fleets. All of this, of course, sounds just like a bunch of guys who don't give a shit if anyone escapes. They build this elaborate mass effect relay trap to spring before any species gets advanced enough to figure out the technology behind the trap... all because they don't care if anyone escapes the trap... Your counter-argument to this adds up to "muh idea of perfectly reasonable!" Which is? What is your idea of perfectly reasonable? But hey, let's look further at what Vigil has to say about what these Reaper guys are like: Vigil: Over the next decades, the Reapers systematically obliterated our people. World by world, system by system, they methodically wiped us out. Shep: The war was lost, if you'd surrendered they might have let you live.Vigil: No offer of surrender was ever given. Our enemy had a single goal. The extinction of all advanced organic life. Through the Citadel the Reapers had access to all our records, maps, census data. Information was power and they knew everything about us.Yup, they built a system to capture all data about the species and then used that data to systematically wipe out everyone because they didn't care if anyone escaped. Your argument makes perfect sense. In insane world. Vigil: Through the Citadel, the Reapers had access to all our records, maps, census data. Information is power and they knew everything about us. Their fleets advanced across every settled region of the galaxy. Some worlds were utterly destroyed. Others were conquered, their populations enslaved. Hey, these Reaper guys were really casual about this harvest thing. No tight net was woven to capture every settled region or anything. Wait. That's exactly what's described above. Vigil: These indoctrinated servants became sleeper agents under Reaper control. Taken in as refugees by other Protheans, they betrayed them to the machines. Within a few centuries, the Reapers had killed or enslaved every Prothean in the galaxy. They were relentless, brutal and absolutely thorough. ... your survival depends on stopping them, not in understanding them."One should take a few notes here. First, the Reapers did everything in their power to make sure nobody escaped them and that everyone was killed or enslaved. Second, Vigil knows Shepard doesn't have the technology to run away from the Reapers. Survival depends on doing what? Running away? Hiding? Nope. Stopping them. The Reapers only missed Ilos because: Vigil: All official records of our project were destroyed in the initial attack on the Citadel. While the Prothean empire came crashing down, Ilos was spared. We severed all communication with the outside and our facility went dark. The personnel retreated underground into these archives. To conserve resources, everyone was put into cryogenic stasis. I was programmed to monitor the facility and wake the staff when the danger passed. But the genocide of an entire species is a long slow process. Years passed. Decades, centuries. The Reapers persisted. And my energy reserves were dwindling. Gee, it kinda sound like these guys didn't want anyone to escape since they're willing to spend hundreds of years to kill or enslave everyone. Shep: You should have fought. Vigil: Well, they probably wouldn't care if some of us escaped so we just turned on all the power after a hundred years or so after they got bored and we got back to work... oh wait, he doesn't say that...Vigil: We were a few hundred against a galactic invasion fleet. Our only hope was to remain undetected. Are you starting to get why I say that the only way the Reapers would let anyone escape is if someone escaped in some super sneaky extremely dangerous and risky fashion? It's because these Reaper dudes kill everybody, they plan to kill everybody, they use multiple powerful ways to kill everybody, they show no inclination whatsoever to let anyone escape death or enslavement. Shep: If the Reapers are trapped in dark space how did Sovereign get here? Vigil: It is logical to assume the Reapers would leave one of their own behind after each extinction, a sentinel to pave the way for their inevitable return. Like those in dark space, Sovereign probably spent most of the last 50,000 years in a state of hibernation. Periodically, it would wake to analyze the situation. Keeping its existence hidden it would evaluate the state of galactic civilization. And, when the time was right, it would signal the Citadel and usher in the next Reaper invasion. ... the Reapers are patient. They will not rush into the unknown. Sovereign could have been planning this for centuries, moving deliberately, gathering allies. Slowly, it has assembled the pieces of the puzzle, working through agents to keep itself hidden. Saren is the most visible pawn of the Reapers, but I doubt he was the first.
We find out later, of course, that the Reapers aren't "trapped" in dark space. They're just inconvenienced by a few years. Regardless of all that, we also find out that the Reapers keep tabs on the civilizations to monitor their progress. They carefully monitor the galactic situation to keep the mice in the trap. We find out in ME2 that it isn't just Sovereign and indoctrinated agents that are used to monitor the galaxy, it's also the husks of the Protheans... the Collectors. This is just you giving yet more opinion. You don't build a cogent counter-argument based on anything we know of the ME games. Not one example is provided of the Reapers letting anyone escape. Not one example is given of Reapers not caring that a species escapes. You can't logically divorce this ME story from the previous story with mere wishful thinking and plot preferences. I'm not even saying that I would like the story I proposed to make putting these two stories together more plausible. At this point, I'm not talking about likes/preferences, I'm talking about story cohesion. In fact, your argument about building more arks simply flies in the face of what actually happens in ME3. We build an entire super-weapon to mess with the Reapers. If we could do that, we certainly could have mass produced more arks and possibly save more people... we already had designs in place for the arks. We build a system of amassing resources during ME3 for the Crucible which could have easily been a story device for building the arks. In fact, it would have made a lot more sense to do the ark thing than build the super weapon. Cerberus - and I don't even like Cerberus, don't want them in this Andromeda game - Cerberus would have been all up in these ark plans and old Illusive Dude would have made sure arks full of humans were sent to multiple galaxies as a contingency against the Reapers. I don't know if you've noticed, but Cerberus damn well knows everything going on and is even steps ahead (constantly) of Shepard. I could probably say the same kind of things about the Shadow Broker. Even if the arks were sabotaged by the Reapers, they would have been in the ME3 story. Since the arks so far have not been billed as some covert project, we would have had people in ME3 saying "well, even if we die, at least our race will carry on somewhere else." That would have been just as plausible as the Crucible project that everybody knew about and commented on. Well, everyone knew about it other than the Reapers, apparently. "Hey, I got this here component or resource for the super secret project... wink wink wink." I've already established that escape is not a part of the Reapers modus operandi. Why would Sovereign let them build the project at all and not instead just simply sabotage it in its planning stages? Nobody knew about indoctrination Sovereign could have pulled it off without giving away his presence. Another problem so far with this ark story is that Sovereign would have just sprung the Reaper trap much sooner than the time frame of Shepard, since this drive was an early indicator that the species were at or past the technology level the Reapers wanted to inhibit. Either way, this project, if it's as public as it seems so far, never would have yielded any fruit under the surveillance of the Reapers, per the Mass Effect trilogy story/lore.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Dec 5, 2016 23:00:46 GMT
I'm curious that only half the Nexus is traveling to Andromeda and the other half is built upon arrival. Was the project behind schedule that it was decided to send only half to be completed in Andromeda? Or was there concern with the middle portion, the ring part, not being able to withstand the stress of the trip to Andromeda? Or why not build both halves and add the ring part after arriving in Andromeda? It also could be this was their intention the whole time. Just curious is all. Maybe the Nexus is to become a far less mobile structure once in Andromeda? Clearly, it's unlikely to make a return trip to the Milky Way, but I mean that it could become more of a space station than a traveling vessel in Andromeda. The Citadel could close its arms for defense and/or travel, but the Nexus' design affords no such option. (I'll bet few truly contemplated the Citadel traveling in 2185.) It could simply be that moving that huge upper wing at FTL requires an insane amount of eezo. Moving the completed structure will require a fiscally unreasonable amount, so they decided to finish the Nexus upon arrival in Andromeda, where they can mine and refine their own eezo. I'm curious about this thing, too. It definitely gives us a nice, visible, in-game progress tracker for the MW effort. Since Bioware implied that the leaders or at least some people involved with the Andromeda Initiative know about the Reapers, and this takes place after Arrival, another reason could be they have to launch prematurely so were unable to finish the Nexus by the time they launch.
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Post by Sifr on Dec 5, 2016 23:45:11 GMT
Fair enough, if that's the case. The only thing I'd seen on the dormant relays was the Codex entry that said: "There are many dormant primary relays whose corresponding twins have not yet been located. These are left inactive until their partner is charted, as established civilizations are unwilling to blindly open a passage that might connect them to a hostile species." I also notice another wiki entry about the First Contact War that says: "Humanity's first contact with an alien race occurred in 2157. At that time, the Alliance allowed survey fleets to activate any dormant mass relays discovered, a practice considered dangerous and irresponsible by Council-aligned races. " So "dangerous", "irresponsible", "unwilling". I haven't actually seen anything saying forbidden. Element Zero posted an excellent rebuttal, but I thought it worth adding that you've taken the codex entries slightly out of context. Activating dormant relays was clearly established as being forbidden under Council Law to prevent another Rachni incident, which is why the Turian fleet regularly patrol the Relay Network to prevent anyone (usually pirates, smugglers or curious scientists) from activating or tampering with the dormant Relays, unless they've been given authorisation. The First Contact War was sparked because human explorers had no compunctions about opening any dormant relay they could find. Having never encountered alien life any of the previous times they'd opened new Relays, they were totally unaware they were violating interstellar law in doing so. The Turian fleet that found them at Relay 314 didn't seem to think a crime committed in ignorance was a good enough defense and proceeded to open fire, leading to the outbreak of hostilities. After the First Contact War ended and Humanity joined the rest of the Citadel species, they agreed to follow Council Law and stop opening any more inactive Mass Relays. The second codex even notes that " At that time, the Alliance allowed..." which is written in past tense, showing that this is no longer allowed by the Alliance following the war.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion
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XBL Gamertag: dfmelancholine
PSN: DFMelancholine
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Post by commandercryptarch on Dec 5, 2016 23:48:02 GMT
I agree that the Reapers made the races dependent on the Relays. I agree that no ship has FTL capabilities to get them to another Galaxy (apart from the AI ships, of course). I agree that the relays were a means by which the Reapers could cause the races to develop along paths that kept them dependent on the Reaper technology and the Citadel. In fact, I have pretty much said all that in my previous post. You seem to be equating all that with the Reapers wanting to keep people within the Milky Way Galaxy. There is no reason to conclude that at all! To the best of my knowledge, the games made no mention of that being a Reaper aim and, as I have already explained, it is perfectly reasonable for it not to be an aim. Nothing that happened in the trilogy is contradicted by the Reapers not caring about other Galaxies or about the other races going there. I kept waiting for you to build an argument to support your statement above and you didn't. What exactly led you to believe that the Reapers didn't want anyone to escape? I already know you believe this, but you... okay let's get to my response because I actually have story logic to support my argument, rather than just an opinion. Let's explore your unsupported premise that the Reapers were some apathetic beings who didn't care if species escaped. Your entire argument isn't examples of what happens in the story anywhere, it's that the games didn't specifically say the Reapers didn't want anyone to escape. But there are many ways they say they didn't want anyone to escape. This is going to get repetitive but you seem to need this drawn out for you dot by dot. They build Mass Relays so species won't advance enough to escape. They build the Citadel so that species will use it as an important hub for government... because they don't care if species escape the galaxy? No, it's to stop species from advancing, spring a surprise attack, shut down all the mass relays, and then leisurely harvest the species. Vigil: But the Citadel is a trap. The station is actually an enormous mass relay. One that links to dark space, the empty void beyond the galaxy's horizon. When the Citadel relay is activated, the Reapers will pour through. And all you know will be destroyed. Shep: How come nobody noticed the Citadel was a mass relay? Vigil: Because the Reapers are careful to keep the greatest secrets of the Citadel hidden. That is why they created a species of seemingly benign organic caretakers. The keepers maintain the station's most basic functions. They enable any species that discovers the Citadel to use it without fully understanding the technology. Shep: The Reapers can wipe the Council and the entire Citadel fleet in a single surprise attack! Vigil: That was our fate. Our leaders were dead before we even realized we were under attack. The Reapers seized control of the Citadel and through it, the mass relays. Communication and transportation across our empire were crippled. Each star system was isolated, cut off from the others. Easy prey for the Reaper fleets. All of this, of course, sounds just like a bunch of guys who don't give a shit if anyone escapes. They build this elaborate mass effect relay trap to spring before any species gets advanced enough to figure out the technology behind the trap... all because they don't care if anyone escapes the trap... Your counter-argument to this adds up to "muh idea of perfectly reasonable!" Which is? What is your idea of perfectly reasonable? But hey, let's look further at what Vigil has to say about what these Reaper guys are like: Vigil: Over the next decades, the Reapers systematically obliterated our people. World by world, system by system, they methodically wiped us out. Shep: The war was lost, if you'd surrendered they might have let you live.Vigil: No offer of surrender was ever given. Our enemy had a single goal. The extinction of all advanced organic life. Through the Citadel the Reapers had access to all our records, maps, census data. Information was power and they knew everything about us.Yup, they built a system to capture all data about the species and then used that data to systematically wipe out everyone because they didn't care if anyone escaped. Your argument makes perfect sense. In insane world. Vigil: Through the Citadel, the Reapers had access to all our records, maps, census data. Information is power and they knew everything about us. Their fleets advanced across every settled region of the galaxy. Some worlds were utterly destroyed. Others were conquered, their populations enslaved. Hey, these Reaper guys were really casual about this harvest thing. No tight net was woven to capture every settled region or anything. Wait. That's exactly what's described above. Vigil: These indoctrinated servants became sleeper agents under Reaper control. Taken in as refugees by other Protheans, they betrayed them to the machines. Within a few centuries, the Reapers had killed or enslaved every Prothean in the galaxy. They were relentless, brutal and absolutely thorough. ... your survival depends on stopping them, not in understanding them."One should take a few notes here. First, the Reapers did everything in their power to make sure nobody escaped them and that everyone was killed or enslaved. Second, Vigil knows Shepard doesn't have the technology to run away from the Reapers. Survival depends on doing what? Running away? Hiding? Nope. Stopping them. The Reapers only missed Ilos because: Vigil: All official records of our project were destroyed in the initial attack on the Citadel. While the Prothean empire came crashing down, Ilos was spared. We severed all communication with the outside and our facility went dark. The personnel retreated underground into these archives. To conserve resources, everyone was put into cryogenic stasis. I was programmed to monitor the facility and wake the staff when the danger passed. But the genocide of an entire species is a long slow process. Years passed. Decades, centuries. The Reapers persisted. And my energy reserves were dwindling. Gee, it kinda sound like these guys didn't want anyone to escape since they're willing to spend hundreds of years to kill or enslave everyone. Shep: You should have fought. Vigil: Well, they probably wouldn't care if some of us escaped so we just turned on all the power after a hundred years or so after they got bored and we got back to work... oh wait, he doesn't say that...Vigil: We were a few hundred against a galactic invasion fleet. Our only hope was to remain undetected. Are you starting to get why I say that the only way the Reapers would let anyone escape is if someone escaped in some super sneaky extremely dangerous and risky fashion? It's because these Reaper dudes kill everybody, they plan to kill everybody, they use multiple powerful ways to kill everybody, they show no inclination whatsoever to let anyone escape death or enslavement. Shep: If the Reapers are trapped in dark space how did Sovereign get here? Vigil: It is logical to assume the Reapers would leave one of their own behind after each extinction, a sentinel to pave the way for their inevitable return. Like those in dark space, Sovereign probably spent most of the last 50,000 years in a state of hibernation. Periodically, it would wake to analyze the situation. Keeping its existence hidden it would evaluate the state of galactic civilization. And, when the time was right, it would signal the Citadel and usher in the next Reaper invasion. ... the Reapers are patient. They will not rush into the unknown. Sovereign could have been planning this for centuries, moving deliberately, gathering allies. Slowly, it has assembled the pieces of the puzzle, working through agents to keep itself hidden. Saren is the most visible pawn of the Reapers, but I doubt he was the first.
We find out later, of course, that the Reapers aren't "trapped" in dark space. They're just inconvenienced by a few years. Regardless of all that, we also find out that the Reapers keep tabs on the civilizations to monitor their progress. They carefully monitor the galactic situation to keep the mice in the trap. We find out in ME2 that it isn't just Sovereign and indoctrinated agents that are used to monitor the galaxy, it's also the husks of the Protheans... the Collectors. This is just you giving yet more opinion. You don't build a cogent counter-argument based on anything we know of the ME games. Not one example is provided of the Reapers letting anyone escape. Not one example is given of Reapers not caring that a species escapes. You can't logically divorce this ME story from the previous story with mere wishful thinking and plot preferences. I'm not even saying that I would like the story I proposed to make putting these two stories together more plausible. At this point, I'm not talking about likes/preferences, I'm talking about story cohesion. In fact, your argument about building more arks simply flies in the face of what actually happens in ME3. We build an entire super-weapon to mess with the Reapers. If we could do that, we certainly could have mass produced more arks and possibly save more people... we already had designs in place for the arks. We build a system of amassing resources during ME3 for the Crucible which could have easily been a story device for building the arks. In fact, it would have made a lot more sense to do the ark thing than build the super weapon. Cerberus - and I don't even like Cerberus, don't want them in this Andromeda game - Cerberus would have been all up in these ark plans and old Illusive Dude would have made sure arks full of humans were sent to multiple galaxies as a contingency against the Reapers. I don't know if you've noticed, but Cerberus damn well knows everything going on and is even steps ahead (constantly) of Shepard. I could probably say the same kind of things about the Shadow Broker. Even if the arks were sabotaged by the Reapers, they would have been in the ME3 story. Since the arks so far have not been billed as some covert project, we would have had people in ME3 saying "well, even if we die, at least our race will carry on somewhere else." That would have been just as plausible as the Crucible project that everybody knew about and commented on. Well, everyone knew about it other than the Reapers, apparently. "Hey, I got this here component or resource for the super secret project... wink wink wink." I've already established that escape is not a part of the Reapers modus operandi. Why would Sovereign let them build the project at all and not instead just simply sabotage it in its planning stages? Nobody knew about indoctrination Sovereign could have pulled it off without giving away his presence. Another problem so far with this ark story is that Sovereign would have just sprung the Reaper trap much sooner than the time frame of Shepard, since this drive was an early indicator that the species were at or past the technology level the Reapers wanted to inhibit. Either way, this project, if it's as public as it seems so far, never would have yielded any fruit under the surveillance of the Reapers, per the Mass Effect trilogy story/lore. I applaud this post and the poster who wrote it.
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Thrombin
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem
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Post by Thrombin on Dec 6, 2016 2:27:42 GMT
I kept waiting for you to build an argument to support your statement above and you didn't. What exactly led you to believe that the Reapers didn't want anyone to escape? I already know you believe this, but you... okay let's get to my response because I actually have story logic to support my argument, rather than just an opinion. I will credit you with an impressive amount of work that went into that post. It was quite some rant. Unfortunately, it didn't make the slightest impact on my argument Just that statement above suggests to me that you haven't read my posts properly anyway. Of course I built an argument and it was built on at least as much logic as yours. All of the effort spent on quoting and bolding passages would have been more useful if those passages actually said anything remotely to do with the conclusions you draw from them. Which they don't. There is not a single quote that proves that they would have any desire to stop people fleeing the Galaxy. Not one. Bear in mind that you are the one postulating that writers of MEA are contradicting what we know from the previous trilogy. Therefore, I am not the one who has to prove my theory. You are the one who has to disprove it. Not disprove it as a certaintly, or even as a probability. You have to disprove it as a possibility. If you can't disprove it as a possibility then you cannot claim that MEA is a contradiction. In fact, as I recall, you already conceded it was a possibility! In any case, people want us to stop and while I often find it hard to stop when people clearly aren't understanding me I think it's probably in everybody's best interests if I just give up at this point.
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Fen'Harel Faceman
N7
GIF Addict
Workin' so hard, to make it easy.
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Fen'Harel Faceman on Dec 6, 2016 2:55:06 GMT
I kept waiting for you to build an argument to support your statement above and you didn't. What exactly led you to believe that the Reapers didn't want anyone to escape? I already know you believe this, but you... okay let's get to my response because I actually have story logic to support my argument, rather than just an opinion. All of the effort spent on quoting and bolding passages would have been more useful if those passages actually said anything remotely to do with the conclusions you draw from them. Which they don't. There is not a single quote that proves that they would have any desire to stop people fleeing the Galaxy. Not one.
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Post by Ahriman on Dec 6, 2016 13:33:10 GMT
Maybe the Nexus is to become a far less mobile structure once in Andromeda? Clearly, it's unlikely to make a return trip to the Milky Way, but I mean that it could become more of a space station than a traveling vessel in Andromeda. The Citadel could close its arms for defense and/or travel, but the Nexus' design affords no such option. (I'll bet few truly contemplated the Citadel traveling in 2185.) It could simply be that moving that huge upper wing at FTL requires an insane amount of eezo. Moving the completed structure will require a fiscally unreasonable amount, so they decided to finish the Nexus upon arrival in Andromeda, where they can mine and refine their own eezo. I'm curious about this thing, too. It definitely gives us a nice, visible, in-game progress tracker for the MW effort. Since Bioware implied that the leaders or at least some people involved with the Andromeda Initiative know about the Reapers, and this takes place after Arrival, another reason could be they have to launch prematurely so were unable to finish the Nexus by the time they launch. If Bioware isn't forgetting to keep their ME site in shape then all Briefings, including the one we are talking about, are happening in 07/25/2184, which I might remind, is before Arrival.
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Post by Element Zero on Dec 6, 2016 17:01:34 GMT
Since Bioware implied that the leaders or at least some people involved with the Andromeda Initiative know about the Reapers, and this takes place after Arrival, another reason could be they have to launch prematurely so were unable to finish the Nexus by the time they launch. If Bioware isn't forgetting to keep their ME site in shape then all Briefings, including the one we are talking about, are happening in 07/25/2184, which I might remind, is before Arrival. Yep. They even got all specific and used months and days this time, on the one timestamp, at least. I'm intentionally keeping the Reapers out of all of my theories. They could be an impetus behind the Ai, but I just don't know that the writers will go in that direction. If I were them, I'd try to avoid it. Whatever the true driving force is, I imagine we will learn well after arrival.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Dec 6, 2016 18:04:19 GMT
Since Bioware implied that the leaders or at least some people involved with the Andromeda Initiative know about the Reapers, and this takes place after Arrival, another reason could be they have to launch prematurely so were unable to finish the Nexus by the time they launch. If Bioware isn't forgetting to keep their ME site in shape then all Briefings, including the one we are talking about, are happening in 07/25/2184, which I might remind, is before Arrival. That's when the briefings are happening, but not the launch of the mission. 2184 is before Mass Effect 2, and Bioware confirmed they launch in the six months between ME2 and ME3.
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Post by traks on Dec 6, 2016 18:26:27 GMT
Since Bioware implied that the leaders or at least some people involved with the Andromeda Initiative know about the Reapers, and this takes place after Arrival, another reason could be they have to launch prematurely so were unable to finish the Nexus by the time they launch. If Bioware isn't forgetting to keep their ME site in shape then all Briefings, including the one we are talking about, are happening in 07/25/2184, which I might remind, is before Arrival. Arrival has no set date in the lore. It can happen early in ME2 (right after Horizon) if you take Hackett's request serious or after the main game if you don't think that saving Kenson is a priority. Just saying...
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Iakus
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Post by Iakus on Dec 6, 2016 18:42:44 GMT
If Bioware isn't forgetting to keep their ME site in shape then all Briefings, including the one we are talking about, are happening in 07/25/2184, which I might remind, is before Arrival. Arrival has no set date in the lore. It can happen early in ME2 (right after Horizon) if you take Hackett's request serious or after the main game if you don't think that saving Kenson is a priority. Just saying... But I believe they did confirm that the launch took place after all the events of ME2 (2185) and before the start of ME3 (2186) Basically, while Shepard was being kept locked up.
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