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Post by Element Zero on Dec 4, 2016 18:37:29 GMT
Particularly since Cerberus is busy elsewhere. I recall TIM telling Shepard that he had "other plans" too, apart from destroying the reapers, so I don't think Cerberus is a 1-trick pony and simply too 'busy elsewhere' and solely invested in defeating the reapers in the MW. The AI presents too great an opportunity for TIM to ignore and he would legitimately look at it as a Plan 'B' option for increasing human dominance among the MW races. The human society in Andromeda has obviously fallen back into infighting, criminal black-market gangs, and power struggles (of course it would!). I think the question is NOT IF Cerberus will be involved in the AI, but instead HOW is it that Cerberus is NOT tagging along with the Hyperion Ark? There are 20,000 humans in the Hyperion Ark from all walks of life. When there's human politicians and special corporate interests funding the project, there IS going to be power and money corruption. I hope Cerberus is not involved but given the deterioration we've now seen in human social order .... But this is a topic for another thread. No criticism meant. Before all of the revelations got rolling, I too used to muse about Cerberus' potential involvement; though I figured BioWare would realize they'd ruined Cerberus for most fans. I was right concerning the latter. The quote Iakus used, "Cerberus is busy elsewhere," came from Mac Walters. Mac was asked if Cerberus would have any role in this game. He replied with those words, specifying that the Lazarus Project's goals of rebuilding Shepard, SSV Normandy, and defeating the Collectors was more than enough to occupy them. They won't be along for the Andromeda ride.
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Post by bshep on Dec 4, 2016 19:14:10 GMT
I read on science site some time ago, that the space between planets in the galaxes is SO VAST, that even when Milky Way and Andromeda collide in the distant future, there is next to no chance, that any of the stars or planets of both galaxies will hit one another. So this displays how the chance of running into a cluster of Reapers or anywere near them while on way to Andromeda is basically 0.I thought about making a post along these lines, as I've done many times, but I just couldn't be bothered this time. It clearly isn't sticking with many, and the rest already understand the reality. I was actually going to post about that. The only thing that will happen to our Solar system is a change in position, more away from the galactic core, but most likely no collisions.
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Post by Thrombin on Dec 4, 2016 19:36:43 GMT
Judging by how they managed to hide in plain sight the most revolutionary FTL technology, since the discovery of Eezo, from everyone, I wouldn't question their hiding abilities. The drive technology itself is a secret development. I think that was stated. Same as any other patented technology. I disagree with the suggested significance of this tech to Galactic society, though. The only thing that the new drive does is enable ships to go to places further out from the relays than they can now. It would be convenient not to have to discharge as often but I don't see it leading to any kind of massive expansion any time soon. There are plenty of places to settle nearer the relays that can be accessed much more quickly and more conveniently by not going so far out. Any world they'd need this drive to reach would be more difficult to get to in terms of time and supplies needed and more difficult to develop or colonize. Why would any normal colonization or mining effort go so far out before they'd exhausted all the places that are already near the relays and don't need the drive to get to? After ME3, with the Relays destroyed, I can see it coming in very handy but, before that, I'm not convinced. For that matter, they may only be able to get away with this technology because of the sheer size of the ships that the drives are fitted on. Given how expensive such ships would be, this drive core may very well be completely impractical for anything other than the mission it was designed for.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 4, 2016 19:40:03 GMT
The quote Iakus used, "Cerberus is busy elsewhere," came from Mac Walters. Mac was asked if Cerberus would have any role in this game. He replied with those words, specifying that the Lazarus Project's goals of rebuilding Shepard, SSV Normandy, and defeating the Collectors was more than enough to occupy them. They won't be along for the Andromeda ride. I appreciate your comment and clarity very much. Thank you. Though it's hard to imagine that TIM would steer clear of the AI, I'm very glad Cerberus isn't involved with Andromeda.
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Post by Element Zero on Dec 4, 2016 19:47:36 GMT
The quote Iakus used, "Cerberus is busy elsewhere," came from Mac Walters. Mac was asked if Cerberus would have any role in this game. He replied with those words, specifying that the Lazarus Project's goals of rebuilding Shepard, SSV Normandy, and defeating the Collectors was more than enough to occupy them. They won't be along for the Andromeda ride. I appreciate your comment and clarity very much. Thank you. Though it's hard to imagine that TIM would steer clear of the AI, I'm very glad Cerberus isn't involved with Andromeda. The Ai is definitely a project into which Cerberus would've logically piggybacked. I'm sure it's simply a case of Mac realizing that this particular well is dry. Cerberus was used up entirely in the OT.
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Post by themikefest on Dec 4, 2016 19:47:54 GMT
Before all of the revelations got rolling, I too used to muse about Cerberus' potential involvement; though I figured BioWare would realize they'd ruined Cerberus for most fans. I was right concerning the latter. The quote Iakus used, "Cerberus is busy elsewhere," came from Mac Walters. Mac was asked if Cerberus would have any role in this game. He replied with those words, specifying that the Lazarus Project's goals of rebuilding Shepard, SSV Normandy, and defeating the Collectors was more than enough to occupy them. They won't be along for the Andromeda ride. All that was after the events of ME1. The project starts in 2176 long before any of that happens. Maybe Cerberus did know about it, but chose not to pursue it. Either way, Walters says they won't play a role in the game. Oh well.
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Post by Ahriman on Dec 4, 2016 19:48:42 GMT
Judging by how they managed to hide in plain sight the most revolutionary FTL technology, since the discovery of Eezo, from everyone, I wouldn't question their hiding abilities. The drive technology itself is a secret development. I think that was stated. Same as any other patented technology. I disagree with the suggested significance of this tech to Galactic society, though. First, it could be used to scout second points of inactive relays which otherwise are forbidden to activate. It's already a big enough reason. Second, it gives next level of maneuverability to military fleets, which would allow them to bypass mined relays on enemy's side. Third, it would free dreadnaughts from spending a lot of time on discharging in planet's magnetic field. Fourth, it allows more effective energy usage. Fifth, ships with it Don't. Need. To refuel. If you think that even fifth point wouldn't make anyone interested - then just say so and I'll spare my time arguing with you.
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Post by Element Zero on Dec 4, 2016 19:49:09 GMT
Before all of the revelations got rolling, I too used to muse about Cerberus' potential involvement; though I figured BioWare would realize they'd ruined Cerberus for most fans. I was right concerning the latter. The quote Iakus used, "Cerberus is busy elsewhere," came from Mac Walters. Mac was asked if Cerberus would have any role in this game. He replied with those words, specifying that the Lazarus Project's goals of rebuilding Shepard, SSV Normandy, and defeating the Collectors was more than enough to occupy them. They won't be along for the Andromeda ride. All that was after the events of ME1. The project starts in 2176 long before any of that happens. Maybe Cerberus did know about it, but chose not to pursue it. Either way, Walters says they won't play a role in the game. Oh well. I just reiterated Walters' exact answer, though not word for word. Like I said above, the reality is that they overplayed their hand with Cerberus in the OT, ruining a cool idea that could've worked in Andromeda. We don't really need them, though. We'll have plenty of internecine drama without them.
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Post by Gwydden on Dec 4, 2016 19:57:22 GMT
The drive technology itself is a secret development. I think that was stated. Same as any other patented technology. I disagree with the suggested significance of this tech to Galactic society, though. First, it could be used to scout second points of inactive relays which otherwise are forbidden to activate. It's already a big enough reason. Second, it gives next level of maneuverability to military fleets, which would allow them to bypass mined relays on enemy's side. Third, it would free dreadnaughts from spending a lot of time on discharging in planet's magnetic field. Fourth, it allows more effective energy usage. Fifth, ships with it Don't. Need. To refuel. If you think that even fifth point wouldn't make anyone interested - then just say so and I'll spare my time arguing with you. But introducing absurd new technologies in lackluster ways during the early game is a Mass Effect tradition! This is actually pretty tame compared to the Lazarus Project or the Crucible.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 4, 2016 20:01:38 GMT
With Emily Wong and Khalisah al-Jilani snooping around, I'm surprised (not really) the AI project wasn't mentioned in the elevator news reports! I wonder if there will be news reporters coming along on this trip.... Diana Allers' sister, maybe? Lol. Lesson learned from ME-3; nope!
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Post by hammerstorm on Dec 4, 2016 20:03:07 GMT
The drive technology itself is a secret development. I think that was stated. Same as any other patented technology. I disagree with the suggested significance of this tech to Galactic society, though. First, it could be used to scout second points of inactive relays which otherwise are forbidden to activate. It's already a big enough reason. Second, it gives next level of maneuverability to military fleets, which would allow them to bypass mined relays on enemy's side. Third, it would free dreadnaughts from spending a lot of time on discharging in planet's magnetic field. Fourth, it allows more effective energy usage. Fifth, ships with it Don't. Need. To refuel. If you think that even fifth point wouldn't make anyone interested - then just say so and I'll spare my time arguing with you. I may be wrong but wasn't the drive a experimental one? In that case it may be so that they left the blueprints in MW but the reapers blow the place up? The military and the council may just have decided that it was not something that they needed at its current state, and suddenly "Reapers!! BOOM!".
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Post by themikefest on Dec 4, 2016 20:05:35 GMT
I wonder if there will be news reporters coming along on this trip.... Diana Allers' sister, maybe? Lol. Lesson learned from ME-3; nope! Maybe a distant relative of Walter Cronkite
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Post by Element Zero on Dec 4, 2016 20:08:41 GMT
First, it could be used to scout second points of inactive relays which otherwise are forbidden to activate. It's already a big enough reason. Second, it gives next level of maneuverability to military fleets, which would allow them to bypass mined relays on enemy's side. Third, it would free dreadnaughts from spending a lot of time on discharging in planet's magnetic field. Fourth, it allows more effective energy usage. Fifth, ships with it Don't. Need. To refuel. If you think that even fifth point wouldn't make anyone interested - then just say so and I'll spare my time arguing with you. But introducing absurd new technologies in lackluster ways during the early game is a Mass Effect tradition! This is actually pretty tame compared to the Lazarus Project or the Crucible. Exactly! Furthermore, this ODSY Drive Core goes into service for the first time in 2185, between the end of ME2 and the beginning of ME3. (Yes, others could've been spying and developing their own earlier, but see the final paragraph. At some point you have to accept the narrative.) Presumably, the Citadel and its constituent powers would have been taking a keen interest. The Reapers arrive within 6 months of the end of ME2, though. That's hardly enough time for lots of ships to be retrofitted with ODSY drive cores and sweeping changes to take place in galactic society. (Before you argue, "but ODSY dreadnoughts in the war...". A handful clearly would not have been and/or weren't a huge advantage, were they?) People need to relax. The great changes this technology would obviously bring will, of necessity, take place after the Reaper War. We won't be around to observe them, since we will be in Andromeda. Ultimately, this will always come down to whether people want to accept a few logical hiccups to play this game. They were bound to happen. So far, I'm impressed by the smoothness of the transition. At any rate, most of the lengthy "Reaper" debate doesn't belong in this thread. We need a "Reapers" thread for those who love to argue about them.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 4, 2016 20:10:05 GMT
I wonder if there will be news reporters coming along on this trip.... Diana Allers' sister, maybe? Lol. Lesson learned from ME-3; nope! Maybe a distant relative of Walter Cronkite Mike - you're showing your age (and wisdom!). Cronkite's ending words to ALL of his newscasts: "And that's the way it is" led to the phrase: "If Cronkite didn't say it, then it never happened." Now I'm showing my age!
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Post by Deleted on Dec 4, 2016 20:29:59 GMT
Bioware botched the timeline up big time. All the more evidence that they don't concern themselves with Milky Way Mass Effect anymore, which can be good if you believe Andromeda has to abandon it's with the old trilogy or bad if you desire series continuity.
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Post by Ahriman on Dec 4, 2016 20:38:57 GMT
But introducing absurd new technologies in lackluster ways during the early game is a Mass Effect tradition! This is actually pretty tame compared to the Lazarus Project or the Crucible. Exactly! Furthermore, this ODSY Drive Core goes into service for the first time in 2185, between the end of ME2 and the beginning of ME3. (Yes, others could've been spying and developing their own earlier, but see the final paragraph. At some point you have to accept the narrative.) Presumably, the Citadel and its constituent powers would have been taking a keen interest. The Reapers arrive within 6 months of the end of ME2, though. That's hardly enough time for lots of ships to be retrofitted with ODSY drive cores and sweeping changes to take place in galactic society. (Before you argue, "but ODSY dreadnoughts in the war...". A handful clearly would not have been and/or weren't a huge advantage, were they?) Naturally the concept of it should have been ready way before 2185. If it was government research they would give something like this to civilians only over their dead bodies. If it was entirely private venture they would have to take patent on it and news about something like this would be all other the extranet. So there's two possible questions, depending on what BW decided to retcon. How did the galaxy react on something like that? or Why make something like that secret? Who's saying I'm not ready to do this? I'm trying to determine where these hiccups are exactly.
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Post by Element Zero on Dec 4, 2016 20:50:57 GMT
Exactly! Furthermore, this ODSY Drive Core goes into service for the first time in 2185, between the end of ME2 and the beginning of ME3. (Yes, others could've been spying and developing their own earlier, but see the final paragraph. At some point you have to accept the narrative.) Presumably, the Citadel and its constituent powers would have been taking a keen interest. The Reapers arrive within 6 months of the end of ME2, though. That's hardly enough time for lots of ships to be retrofitted with ODSY drive cores and sweeping changes to take place in galactic society. (Before you argue, "but ODSY dreadnoughts in the war...". A handful clearly would not have been and/or weren't a huge advantage, were they?) Naturally the concept of it should have been ready way before 2185. If it was government research they would give something like this to civilians only over their dead bodies. If it was entirely private venture they would have to take patent on it and news about something like this would be all other the extranet. So there's two possible questions, depending on what BW decided to retcon. How did the galaxy react on something like that? or Why make something like that secret? Who's saying I'm not ready to do this? I'm trying to determine where these hiccups are exactly.I think you've shown you are trying to put it all together. You're not arguing solely on one side of the debate in 20 different threads over the course of 4 years. Your posts are always based on logic, and may be made on either "side" of the issue, depending upon the individual conversation. There are definitely questions, and I'm not sure if they'll be answered or not. I doubt we will learn much more before release. This type of stuff would be learned via Nexus dialogue or Codex entries, I'd bet.
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Post by Thrombin on Dec 4, 2016 21:30:54 GMT
The drive technology itself is a secret development. I think that was stated. Same as any other patented technology. I disagree with the suggested significance of this tech to Galactic society, though. First, it could be used to scout second points of inactive relays which otherwise are forbidden to activate. It's already a big enough reason. Second, it gives next level of maneuverability to military fleets, which would allow them to bypass mined relays on enemy's side. Third, it would free dreadnaughts from spending a lot of time on discharging in planet's magnetic field. Fourth, it allows more effective energy usage. Fifth, ships with it Don't. Need. To refuel. If you think that even fifth point wouldn't make anyone interested - then just say so and I'll spare my time arguing with you. 1. Inactive relays are not forbidden. People don't want to use them because they are afraid of who they might find on the other side. The chances of randomly travelling through uncharted space with the hope of discovering the end of a particular relay makes the idea of finding a needle in a haystack seem like a walk in the park! 2. What kind of military manouver would be prepared to spend decaades in FTL in order to bypass a mined relay? The war would have been over years before they arrive! 3. A minor convenience at best, I would have thought. 4. While I approve the idea of energy conservation - go green! - I would hardly call it a revolutionary change to Galactic civilization. 5. Of course ships need to refuel. The fuel is for the thrusters. Nothing to do with the electric charge required to power the core. No reason why a standard fusion reactor couldn't keep a core running for years. The Ramscoop may be necessary to keep systems running for 600 years but, in normal conditions it won't be necessary and it won't make the slightest difference to the amount of thruster fuel required.
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Post by Element Zero on Dec 4, 2016 21:54:14 GMT
First, it could be used to scout second points of inactive relays which otherwise are forbidden to activate. It's already a big enough reason. Second, it gives next level of maneuverability to military fleets, which would allow them to bypass mined relays on enemy's side. Third, it would free dreadnaughts from spending a lot of time on discharging in planet's magnetic field. Fourth, it allows more effective energy usage. Fifth, ships with it Don't. Need. To refuel. If you think that even fifth point wouldn't make anyone interested - then just say so and I'll spare my time arguing with you. 1. Inactive relays are not forbidden. People don't want to use them because they are afraid of who they might find on the other side. The chances of randomly travelling through uncharted space with the hope of discovering the end of a particular relay makes the idea of finding a needle in a haystack seem like a walk in the park! 2. What kind of military manouver would be prepared to spend decaades in FTL in order to bypass a mined relay? The war would have been over with years before they arrive! 3. A minor convenience at best, I would have thought. 4. While I approve the idea of energy conservation - go green! - I would hardly call it a revolutionary change to Galactic civilization. 5. Of course ships need to refuel. The fuel is for the thrusters. Nothing to do with the electric charge required to power the core. No reason why a standard fusion reactor couldn't keep a core running for years. The Ramscoop may be necessary to keep systems running for 600 years but, in normal conditions it won't be necessary and it won't make the slightest difference to the amount of thruster fuel required. While I hate endless debates which lead nowhere, and hope this isn't another gaining momentum, I wanted to ask about point #1. Since when? Of course they are. They've been forbidden, restricted, however you wish to describe it since the end of the Rachnii War. This is why the turians acted so hyper-aggressively in their first contact with humans. Remember the "Relay 314 Incident" or "First Contact War"? This happened precisely because dormant relays are forbidden.
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Post by Thrombin on Dec 4, 2016 22:34:01 GMT
While I hate endless debates which lead nowhere, and hope this isn't another gaining momentum, I wanted to ask about point #1. Since when? Of course they are. They've been forbidden, restricted, however you wish to describe it since the end of the Rachnii War. This is why the turians acted so hyper-aggressively in their first contact with humans. Remember the "Relay 314 Incident" or "First Contact War"? This happened precisely because dormant relays are forbidden. Fair enough, if that's the case. The only thing I'd seen on the dormant relays was the Codex entry that said: "There are many dormant primary relays whose corresponding twins have not yet been located. These are left inactive until their partner is charted, as established civilizations are unwilling to blindly open a passage that might connect them to a hostile species." I also notice another wiki entry about the First Contact War that says: "Humanity's first contact with an alien race occurred in 2157. At that time, the Alliance allowed survey fleets to activate any dormant mass relays discovered, a practice considered dangerous and irresponsible by Council-aligned races. " So "dangerous", "irresponsible", "unwilling". I haven't actually seen anything saying forbidden. Not that it invalidates my argument either way. Trying to establish where the the other end of a Relay might be without actually using it is not something that could realistically be done by just blindly travelling around the Galaxy at FTL hoping to bump into it. Even if you could recognize where it connects to if you found it, the chances of finding even a random relay would be astronomically small (no pun intended ).
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Post by Element Zero on Dec 4, 2016 22:44:07 GMT
While I hate endless debates which lead nowhere, and hope this isn't another gaining momentum, I wanted to ask about point #1. Since when? Of course they are. They've been forbidden, restricted, however you wish to describe it since the end of the Rachnii War. This is why the turians acted so hyper-aggressively in their first contact with humans. Remember the "Relay 314 Incident" or "First Contact War"? This happened precisely because dormant relays are forbidden. Fair enough, if that's the case. The only thing I'd seen on the dormant relays was the Codex entry that said: "There are many dormant primary relays whose corresponding twins have not yet been located. These are left inactive until their partner is charted, as established civilizations are unwilling to blindly open a passage that might connect them to a hostile species." I also notice another wiki entry about the First Contact War that says: "Humanity's first contact with an alien race occurred in 2157. At that time, the Alliance allowed survey fleets to activate any dormant mass relays discovered, a practice considered dangerous and irresponsible by Council-aligned races. " So "dangerous", "irresponsible", "unwilling". I haven't actually seen anything saying forbidden. Not that it invalidates my argument either way. Trying to establish where the the other end of a Relay might be without actually using it is not something that could realistically be done by just blindly travelling around the Galaxy at FTL hoping to bump into it. Even if you could recognize where it connects to if you found it, the chances of finding even a random relay would be astronomically small (no pun intended ). Yeah, that sounds silly. I didn't realize that this was the argument. Trying to find a relay that way would be essentially impossible, not to mention pointless, and likely even more dangerous. The Council certainly studies the Relay Network, and must activate dormant relays, from time to time, or else Citadel Space would never grow. I didn't mean to imply it never happens. The policy is that it's "strictly forbidden", except by the proper authorities.
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Post by Fen'Harel Faceman on Dec 5, 2016 1:37:31 GMT
That's a possibility but by no means a certainty. Bioware hasn't provided any data about whether or not the AI has spread to other galaxies - anyone who's seen a dev quote or whatever to this point please feel free to jump in if you want to do so. In fact, given the near-instantaneous travel they've developed, I'd say the likelihood is high they've expanded. Why wouldn't they? They're basically immortal, powerful and a larger data-set would only be more beneficial to their experiment, not less. Possibility is all we need to make the fact that the Reapers didn't target the AI perfectly acceptable. Why go out of your way to come up with other possibilities which conflict with the premise of MEA when we've a perfectly good one which explains it? In any case Reapers aren't using the MW as an experiment. They are doing what they are doing to fulfill their purpose of preserving organic life. If their imperative is to preserve all life in the Universe the method they are using would be impossible. Adding just one more Galaxy would make no difference whatsoever. There are too many galaxies spread too far apart for even the Reapers to have a hope of achieving that objective. If saving the entire Universe was their objective no solution would have worked and they would still be cogitating! The only way the Reaping solution works is if they limit their objective (or the Leviathans already did so) to the Milky Way. Then it can at least work for the Milky Way organics. If that's the case, as soon as anything ceases to affect that objective (i.e. organics leave the Milky Way) they have no reason to care about it. Actually it was using the MW as an experiment. Dialogue from the Leviathan DLC: Shep: But what's the point of all these harvests? Leviathan: The intelligence has one purpose: preservation of life. That purpose has not been fulfilled. It directed the Reapers to create the mass relays - to speed the time between cycles for greatest efficiency. The galaxy itself became an experiment. Evolution its tool. Shep: Will it ever end? Leviathan: Unknown. Until the intelligence finds what it is looking for, the harvest will continue. It would be completely logical to set up more experiments in other galaxies and expand its pool of evolutionary data. I'm not saying it happened, all I'm saying is it's logical for such a thing to happen. You keep forgetting that the Reapers were practically immortal. Time invested to save a galaxy or a universe is inconsequential to them, only the solution matters or mattered. I'll state again, the evidence that they didn't want any races escaping to other galaxies is that they set up an elaborate system to keep the races from advancing enough to escape to another galaxy. The motive to hinder escape is right there apparent in the Reaper actions. There is no question in this regard. I'm not "going out of my way"... it's one of the obvious flaws in the story (so far, pending further details) when trying to mesh this story with the previous story. And this video does introduce parts of the Andromeda story, so it's fair game in commentary of the video to evaluate how that story matches up with the previous story. I don't have the final say on such matters, but I don't consider any of this "off topic".
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Post by KaiserShep on Dec 5, 2016 8:10:28 GMT
Bioware botched the timeline up big time. All the more evidence that they don't concern themselves with Milky Way Mass Effect anymore, which can be good if you believe Andromeda has to abandon it's with the old trilogy or bad if you desire series continuity. The ending took away any real hope of there being some continuity in the Milky Way side of the MEU. They'd basically have to just pick an ending and roll with it for that to work, or go back and keep the franchise planted firmly within the pre-reaper war timeline, neither of which seem like particularly desirable options.
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Post by Element Zero on Dec 5, 2016 8:17:35 GMT
Bioware botched the timeline up big time. All the more evidence that they don't concern themselves with Milky Way Mass Effect anymore, which can be good if you believe Andromeda has to abandon it's with the old trilogy or bad if you desire series continuity. The ending took away any real hope of there being some continuity in the Milky Way side of the MEU. They'd basically have to just pick an ending and roll with it for that to work, or go back and keep the franchise planted firmly within the pre-reaper war timeline, neither of which seem like particularly desirable options. I thought about asking for specifics, earlier, but I didn't want to risk another directionless debate in this thread. Since you've brought it up, how do you think the timeline has been mucked up, @ramadeus? Your post was a bit unspecific.
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Post by hipi07 on Dec 5, 2016 9:13:04 GMT
That briefing was pretty sexy.
So glad that Avina is coming along to Andromeda as well. That's what I love about universes like Mass Effect, they keep up with the little details. I am curious to see though how Hyperion loses contact with the other ARK's and the Nexus, they all seemed to be traveling together...
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