Fen'Harel Faceman
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Post by Fen'Harel Faceman on Dec 10, 2016 5:42:05 GMT
Since the technology was developed in the Milky Way, there's no reason to expect all the plans, diagrams and people who developed that technology and built it would all go to Andromeda - in a universe that makes any sort of sense. Sure, but since Arcian mentioned the actual technology itself and not the people who designed it. Since the tech is on the way to Andromeda and since, to the best of our knowledge, the technology was not used in the Milkyway, that is where the technology is going. "The technology" isn't just the engines. The technology is also the means to build the engines.
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Arcian
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Post by Arcian on Dec 10, 2016 5:48:33 GMT
On its way to the Andromeda Galaxy, obviously. I don't buy for a single second that they managed to take all those design notes and blueprints with them without any of the governments or the Shadow Broker getting their hands on a copy.
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Post by colfoley on Dec 10, 2016 5:51:20 GMT
The period of Galactic Reconstruction would have been complicated due to the fact one of the endings would have been, likely given the set up in ME 3, led to a Galactic Utopia.
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Arcian
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Post by Arcian on Dec 10, 2016 5:51:26 GMT
Unfortunately. Personally I think the Galactic Reconstruction time period would have been a fascinating time to base the next games and would have had a ton of potential. That was the game I really wanted, as excited as I presently am for Andromeda. I wanted, coincidentally, to lead an exploratory mission through an unmapped relay. Maybe something would go wrong and we'd get stranded, cut-off from help? I discussed it at length with JeffZero, if I recall correctly. Even better - because the Mass Relays were damaged and rendered non-functional by the Catalyst, a whoooooole lot of previously mapped territory is now unmapped. You'd have a galaxy-wide Fallout situation where you delve deeper into the galaxy to find the survivors having formed tribes and societies far removed from what they once were from before the war. Also, I've done the math on the ram-scoop:
3,141,592.65 (surface area of 1km radius circular scoop in m2) x 1,314,000,000,000 (meters traversed by an FTL engine in 1 second) = 4,128,052,742,100,000,000 (hydrogen atoms collected per second) This is two orders of magnitude, or 100 times, less hydrogen atoms than there are in a single, 1 gram drop of water. What that means is that they collect a kilogram of hydrogen in 28 hours, a ton in 3.2 years, and over the course of 600 years, a total of 187 tons of hydrogen. Just to put that into perspective, the second stage of a 1969 Saturn V rocket was fueled with 984 tons of hydrogen, which was spent in its entirety before the spacecraft reached orbit. That means that the Ark would collect a fifth of a second stage Saturn V hydrogen tank over the course of 600 years. Let me repeat that: the total amount of fuel they would collect over the course of six centuries is equal to a fifth of the second stage of a 1969 Saturn V rocket. Tell me again about how genius BioWare's solutions are.
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Post by Element Zero on Dec 10, 2016 5:57:36 GMT
That was the game I really wanted, as excited as I presently am for Andromeda. I wanted, coincidentally, to lead an exploratory mission through an unmapped relay. Maybe something would go wrong and we'd get stranded, cut-off from help? I discussed it at length with JeffZero, if I recall correctly. Even better - because the Mass Relays were damaged and rendered non-functional by the Catalyst, a whoooooole lot of previously mapped territory is now unmapped. You'd have a galaxy-wide Fallout situation where you delve deeper into the galaxy to find the survivors having formed tribes and societies far removed from what they once were from before the war. Exactly. The Milky Way still had a lot offer, regardless of how they chose to handle it. (I think I actually imagined the above concept as being pre-war, as I begin to recollect.) I'm on the Andromeda wagon, but I'd have much preferred to stay at home in our own galactic backyard. That's a huge part of ME's appeal, for me.
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Post by Thrombin on Dec 10, 2016 11:56:53 GMT
You're talking about the prototype and saying that literally the only use for exploring such ideas is launching stuff out of the galaxy. I'm making a case for the usefulness of developing the prototype for use in-galaxy. There are plenty of uses, as illustrated. The ODSY drive is described as a massive drive. The fact that it's a prototype doesn't change the quite likely possibility that it only works when sufficiently massive. That's all you need to explain why this technology is of no use whatsoever for anything other than exploration. I wasn't limiting that exploration to Andromeda, though. They could, indeed, explore more of the MW than the relay network. However, there is no advantage to doing that as there is plenty left unexplored that doesn't require long distance FTL to get to. Accessible clusters contain unexplored planets so it's still much easier to explore those with conventional drives than forking out the huge amounts of money required to build an ODSY drive ship just so that they can go somewhere further away from known civilization and support. I'm not saying it wouldn't find a use. I'm just saying there's no revolution here. It's like inventing a faster BMX bike. That's great if you want to travel cross country using a BMX but it's no revolution when everywhere you need to get is much easier by car! Since you ask, I'm very familiar with ME lore. I ran ME1 6 times, ME2 at least 8 times and ME3 14 times in an effort to soak up as much lore and variation as possible. I'm halfway through a 15th run of ME3. I know the story! The way I see it, if they were worried about running into hostile species through the relays wouldn't they still have the same danger of running into them at FTL? Without support you'd be at the mercy of any new species which could then take this new technology and star charts of your homeworld and you'd be opening up the Galaxy to the same risk as opening a relay would. Plus you say it would open up opportunities but I don't see it. The parts of the Galaxy accessible to the known relays and the parts you need long range FTL for are no different in any way besides accessibility. The known relays can take you all over the Galaxy. There's no reason to expect the opportunities of further exploration in an accessible cluster to yield anything different in terms of opportunities than exploration of a less accessible cluster. Not sure I understand. If 12 light yeras a day is standard and the 600 year time frame is consistent with 12 light years a day then that's bang on with the lore. Why is a readjustment necessary?
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Post by Thrombin on Dec 10, 2016 12:07:48 GMT
Also, I've done the math on the ram-scoop:
3,141,592.65 (surface area of 1km radius circular scoop in m2) x 1,314,000,000,000 (meters traversed by an FTL engine in 1 second) = 4,128,052,742,100,000,000 (hydrogen atoms collected per second) This is two orders of magnitude, or 100 times, less hydrogen atoms than there are in a single, 1 gram drop of water. What that means is that they collect a kilogram of hydrogen in 28 hours, a ton in 3.2 years, and over the course of 600 years, a total of 187 tons of hydrogen. Just to put that into perspective, the second stage of a 1969 Saturn V rocket was fueled with 984 tons of hydrogen, which was spent in its entirety before the spacecraft reached orbit. That means that the Ark would collect a fifth of a second stage Saturn V hydrogen tank over the course of 600 years. Let me repeat that: the total amount of fuel they would collect over the course of six centuries is equal to a fifth of the second stage of a 1969 Saturn V rocket. Tell me again about how genius BioWare's solutions are. The only thing I know about Ram Scoops is what I've read online but I thought ramscoops were magnetic fields? Wouldn't you be able to extend the field much wider than the width of the ship? They don't need the fuel for propulsion anyway, once they've accelerated up to speed they can turn the thrusters off. I assume they only need the Hydrogen to power a fusion reactor to generate power for life-support and the Drive Core. One imagines that fusion reactors are pretty efficient by then. Much more efficient than the Saturn V rockets! Also, apparently there's some drag involved in ram scoops which could slow them down so maybe it's only used at the other end of the trip to help them decelerate and replenish their fuel reserves. It may even be only for use once they get to Andromeda where the hydrogen density would be much greater.
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Post by ProbeAway on Dec 10, 2016 12:16:41 GMT
That was the game I really wanted, as excited as I presently am for Andromeda. I wanted, coincidentally, to lead an exploratory mission through an unmapped relay. Maybe something would go wrong and we'd get stranded, cut-off from help? I discussed it at length with JeffZero, if I recall correctly. Even better - because the Mass Relays were damaged and rendered non-functional by the Catalyst, a whoooooole lot of previously mapped territory is now unmapped. You'd have a galaxy-wide Fallout situation where you delve deeper into the galaxy to find the survivors having formed tribes and societies far removed from what they once were from before the war. Also, I've done the math on the ram-scoop:
3,141,592.65 (surface area of 1km radius circular scoop in m2) x 1,314,000,000,000 (meters traversed by an FTL engine in 1 second) = 4,128,052,742,100,000,000 (hydrogen atoms collected per second) This is two orders of magnitude, or 100 times, less hydrogen atoms than there are in a single, 1 gram drop of water. What that means is that they collect a kilogram of hydrogen in 28 hours, a ton in 3.2 years, and over the course of 600 years, a total of 187 tons of hydrogen. Just to put that into perspective, the second stage of a 1969 Saturn V rocket was fueled with 984 tons of hydrogen, which was spent in its entirety before the spacecraft reached orbit. That means that the Ark would collect a fifth of a second stage Saturn V hydrogen tank over the course of 600 years. Let me repeat that: the total amount of fuel they would collect over the course of six centuries is equal to a fifth of the second stage of a 1969 Saturn V rocket. Tell me again about how genius BioWare's solutions are. I'm confused by your math. Haven't you just worked out a volume of space in m3 that is covered per second? I don't see how that figure equals the number of hydrogen atoms collected. Wouldn't you still need to multiply that figure by the number of hydrogen atoms typically found in 1m3 of space (assuming there is such a 'typical' number)? EDIT: also, what Thrombin said.
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Post by helios969 on Dec 10, 2016 12:26:19 GMT
Nah, this confirms Cerberus is behind the Andromeda Initiative. I know, let the wrist slashing commence. I wouldn't complain if Cerberus is behind the project Actually me neither. Given that Bio has specified the AI as a privately funded endeavor I think it would be a given TIM would know and find a way to to insert his influence. And he was fully aware of the Reaper threat at this point in the timeline. And given the fleet of warships and army of personnel at his disposal in ME3, he's probably the only human with the financial and political connections to make such an endeavor happen. At least it would be lore consistent.
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Post by helios969 on Dec 10, 2016 12:42:59 GMT
Even better - because the Mass Relays were damaged and rendered non-functional by the Catalyst, a whoooooole lot of previously mapped territory is now unmapped. You'd have a galaxy-wide Fallout situation where you delve deeper into the galaxy to find the survivors having formed tribes and societies far removed from what they once were from before the war. Also, I've done the math on the ram-scoop:
3,141,592.65 (surface area of 1km radius circular scoop in m2) x 1,314,000,000,000 (meters traversed by an FTL engine in 1 second) = 4,128,052,742,100,000,000 (hydrogen atoms collected per second) This is two orders of magnitude, or 100 times, less hydrogen atoms than there are in a single, 1 gram drop of water. What that means is that they collect a kilogram of hydrogen in 28 hours, a ton in 3.2 years, and over the course of 600 years, a total of 187 tons of hydrogen. Just to put that into perspective, the second stage of a 1969 Saturn V rocket was fueled with 984 tons of hydrogen, which was spent in its entirety before the spacecraft reached orbit. That means that the Ark would collect a fifth of a second stage Saturn V hydrogen tank over the course of 600 years. Let me repeat that: the total amount of fuel they would collect over the course of six centuries is equal to a fifth of the second stage of a 1969 Saturn V rocket. Tell me again about how genius BioWare's solutions are. I'm confused by your math. Haven't you just worked out a volume of space in m3 that is covered per second? I don't see how that figure equals the number of hydrogen atoms collected. Wouldn't you still need to multiply that figure by the number of hydrogen atoms typically found in 1m3 of space (assuming there is such a 'typical' number)? EDIT: also, what Thrombin said. I was thinking the same thing. The interstellar medium contains ~10^6 molecules/cm3 with about 90% of that being hydrogen atoms...for anyone who cares enough to calculate the amount of hydrogen being captured in a given period of time. It may still be a relatively small number.
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Arcian
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Post by Arcian on Dec 10, 2016 16:24:44 GMT
I'm confused by your math. Haven't you just worked out a volume of space in m3 that is covered per second? I don't see how that figure equals the number of hydrogen atoms collected. Wouldn't you still need to multiply that figure by the number of hydrogen atoms typically found in 1m3 of space (assuming there is such a 'typical' number)? EDIT: also, what Thrombin said. I was thinking the same thing. The interstellar medium contains ~10^6 molecules/cm3 with about 90% of that being hydrogen atoms...for anyone who cares enough to calculate the amount of hydrogen being captured in a given period of time. It may still be a relatively small number. The interstellar medium inside galaxies is about 1 atom per cubic centimeter. Out in intergalactic space it drops down to 1 atom per cubic meter.
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bshep
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Post by bshep on Dec 10, 2016 16:39:57 GMT
I'm confused by your math. Haven't you just worked out a volume of space in m3 that is covered per second? I don't see how that figure equals the number of hydrogen atoms collected. Wouldn't you still need to multiply that figure by the number of hydrogen atoms typically found in 1m3 of space (assuming there is such a 'typical' number)? EDIT: also, what Thrombin said. I was thinking the same thing. The interstellar medium contains ~10^6 molecules/cm3 with about 90% of that being hydrogen atoms...for anyone who cares enough to calculate the amount of hydrogen being captured in a given period of time. It may still be a relatively small number. There is also the satellite galaxies. They are dwarf galaxies that orbit both the Milky Way and Andromeda and although they are poorer on hydrogen than the Milky Way they would still be a good place to stop for a refuel. So maybe the route was calcullated taking the location of a few of those dwarfs into account.
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Post by Arcian on Dec 10, 2016 17:49:26 GMT
Also, I've done the math on the ram-scoop:
3,141,592.65 (surface area of 1km radius circular scoop in m2) x 1,314,000,000,000 (meters traversed by an FTL engine in 1 second) = 4,128,052,742,100,000,000 (hydrogen atoms collected per second) This is two orders of magnitude, or 100 times, less hydrogen atoms than there are in a single, 1 gram drop of water. What that means is that they collect a kilogram of hydrogen in 28 hours, a ton in 3.2 years, and over the course of 600 years, a total of 187 tons of hydrogen. Just to put that into perspective, the second stage of a 1969 Saturn V rocket was fueled with 984 tons of hydrogen, which was spent in its entirety before the spacecraft reached orbit. That means that the Ark would collect a fifth of a second stage Saturn V hydrogen tank over the course of 600 years. Let me repeat that: the total amount of fuel they would collect over the course of six centuries is equal to a fifth of the second stage of a 1969 Saturn V rocket. Tell me again about how genius BioWare's solutions are. The only thing I know about Ram Scoops is what I've read online but I thought ramscoops were magnetic fields? Wouldn't you be able to extend the field much wider than the width of the ship? They are both, and no. So far you're treating the inside of the Mass Effect field like it's regular space, which it is not. It makes no sense to me that you could generate an electromagnetic field that is affected by areas of differing physical laws. Being propagated at the speed of light in conventional space, how could it possibly keep up with the ship at FTL speeds? The more sensible conclusion is that an electromagnetic field simply can't extend through the borders of a mass effect field. That would mean the size of the magnetic field is then essentially limited to the size of the Mass Effect field. That's not how they do it in Mass Effect. masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Codex/Ships_and_Vehicles#Starships:_Thrusters"Any long-duration interstellar flight consists of two phases: acceleration and deceleration. Starships accelerate to the half-way point of their journey, then flip 180 degrees and apply thrust on the opposite vector, decelerating as they finish the trip. The engines are always operating, and peak speed is attained at the middle of the flight." They do this because it's more time efficient than drifting. Unlike real life spacecraft that can drift on conservation of momentum alone, Mass Effect spacecraft need to keep their FTL drive engaged all the way to their destination. Preserving fuel by halting acceleration increases the length of time the FTL drive has to stay on. In other words, the energy in the form of fuel you save by drifting is wasted in the form of electrical power you spend keeping your FTL drive on longer. You can't start fusion with hydrogen alone unless you have enough hydrogen to form a star. You'll need deuterium, tritium or helium-3, none of which are found in even remotely similar abundance in the interstellar medium as regular hydrogen, and especially not in the even sparser intergalactic medium. It would be about a million times more efficient in a galactic medium, so there it would make sense. However, I'm still not sure how a ramjet scoop is supposed to work in an FTL field.
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Post by helios969 on Dec 10, 2016 19:12:46 GMT
I was thinking the same thing. The interstellar medium contains ~10^6 molecules/cm3 with about 90% of that being hydrogen atoms...for anyone who cares enough to calculate the amount of hydrogen being captured in a given period of time. It may still be a relatively small number. The interstellar medium inside galaxies is about 1 atom per cubic centimeter. Out in intergalactic space it drops down to 1 atom per cubic meter. Yeah, I was quoting interstellar density from wiki (not necessarily a reliable source I realize)...but I did find 1 atom/m3 for intergalactic space. Do we even know what the hydrogen is being used for aboard the Arks? I don't recall the briefing specifying...or for that matter what is being argued.
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Post by Element Zero on Dec 10, 2016 19:22:20 GMT
At which point do we apply the microscope so closely to a work of science fiction that a given piece starts to come apart? In this case, it's MEA's ODSY Drive Core. It could easily be another point in any number of other works under scrutiny. I am not sure what the goal here truly is. Are we trying to prove that the ODSY Drive can't be built? Well done!
I realize that some of you guys really enjoy participating in these lengthy debates. Long discussions can be pretty entertaining to read, at times, as well. These debates can even become the highlights of a given forum, from time to time, but likely not in this case. Each person realizes that he is winning zero converts by continuously talking past the other persons in the thread, yes? Repeating the same arguments over and over will not convince anyone to agree with you.
The developers of this game weren't trying to design a functional prototype. They put together an idea that, in their opinion, made sense within the context of their existing scifi setting. Agree or disagree, that's up to the individual fan. The level of granularity being applied to the idea now, though, is amusing. How is it supposed to withstand that? Apply that level of real science to "element zero" and we can just scrap the whole IP.
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Fen'Harel Faceman
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Post by Fen'Harel Faceman on Dec 10, 2016 19:53:03 GMT
Not sure I understand. If 12 light yeras a day is standard and the 600 year time frame is consistent with 12 light years a day then that's bang on with the lore. Why is a readjustment necessary? "That's less than 12 light years a day." That's what you said, that's what I was responding to. I'll get back to the rest of my response later. Breakfast calls.
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Post by Thrombin on Dec 10, 2016 19:55:25 GMT
The only thing I know about Ram Scoops is what I've read online but I thought ramscoops were magnetic fields? Wouldn't you be able to extend the field much wider than the width of the ship? They are both, and no. So far you're treating the inside of the Mass Effect field like it's regular space, which it is not. It makes no sense to me that you could generate an electromagnetic field that is affected by areas of differing physical laws. Being propagated at the speed of light in conventional space, how could it possibly keep up with the ship at FTL speeds? The more sensible conclusion is that an electromagnetic field simply can't extend through the borders of a mass effect field. That would mean the size of the magnetic field is then essentially limited to the size of the Mass Effect field. How do we know how far the mass effect field can extend? We know the field certainly extends beyond the size of the Core itself so that it can encompass the ship but that doesn't mean it can't extend further. The ODSY drive is said to be pretty massive. Maybe it's massive so that it can extend the field far beyond the size of the Ark itself. It seems to me we have no way to know how wide that could be. I know the codex says that ships keep their thrusters on all the time but that's because they can. They're never too far from a refueling depot. In the AI's case it would not be practical to do that for 600 years and I don't see why they'd need to. Sure they need to keep the drive core powered but that's nothing to do with the thrusters. They aren't going to slow down if they turn the thrusters off so how is it more time efficient to keep them going? Well, yes, but it's a big ship, they can stock pile all the deuterium or whatever they need, surely?
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Post by Thrombin on Dec 10, 2016 19:58:36 GMT
At which point do we apply the microscope so closely to a work of science fiction that a given piece starts to come apart? In this case, it's MEA's ODSY Drive Core. It could easily be another point in any number of other works under scrutiny. I am not sure what the goal here truly is. Are we trying to prove that the ODSY Drive can't be built? Well done! I realize that some of you guys really enjoy participating in these lengthy debates. Long discussions can be pretty entertaining to read, at times, as well. These debates can even become the highlights of a given forum, from time to time, but likely not in this case. Each person realizes that he is winning zero converts by continuously talking past the other persons in the thread, yes? Repeating the same arguments over and over will not convince anyone to agree with you. The developers of this game weren't trying to design a functional prototype. They put together an idea that, in their opinion, made sense within the context of their existing scifi setting. Agree or disagree, that's up to the individual fan. The level of granularity being applied to the idea now, though, is amusing. How is it supposed to withstand that? Apply that level of real science to "element zero" and we can just scrap the whole IP. Every time I join a debate you seem to want to shut it down I haven't noticed any repetition or talking past each other (at least not on the Ram Scoop debate). I'm finding all the science pretty fascinating actually.
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Post by Element Zero on Dec 10, 2016 20:07:22 GMT
At which point do we apply the microscope so closely to a work of science fiction that a given piece starts to come apart? In this case, it's MEA's ODSY Drive Core. It could easily be another point in any number of other works under scrutiny. I am not sure what the goal here truly is. Are we trying to prove that the ODSY Drive can't be built? Well done! I realize that some of you guys really enjoy participating in these lengthy debates. Long discussions can be pretty entertaining to read, at times, as well. These debates can even become the highlights of a given forum, from time to time, but likely not in this case. Each person realizes that he is winning zero converts by continuously talking past the other persons in the thread, yes? Repeating the same arguments over and over will not convince anyone to agree with you. The developers of this game weren't trying to design a functional prototype. They put together an idea that, in their opinion, made sense within the context of their existing scifi setting. Agree or disagree, that's up to the individual fan. The level of granularity being applied to the idea now, though, is amusing. How is it supposed to withstand that? Apply that level of real science to "element zero" and we can just scrap the whole IP. Every time I join a debate you seem to want to shut it down I haven't noticed any repetition or talking past each other. I'm finding all the science pretty fascinating actually. Haha! True enough. If they drag on too long, seem headed for no resolution, and completely take over the thread, I don't enjoy them. This one has seemingly become that type. Still, I'm not the fun police, and that was just me interjecting an opinion into the discussion. The current debate is definitely more productive than it was a page or two past. Not all parts of my post apply equally to all participants. Some keep things productive, civil and on topic. Others like to condescend and insult. Some mix it up in varying measures. Like I said, debates can be fun. I just hope you realize you won't sway anyone, no matter what you say. If the fun is in the debate itself, have at it.
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Post by Fen'Harel Faceman on Dec 10, 2016 21:52:10 GMT
The ODSY drive is described as a massive drive. The fact that it's a prototype doesn't change the quite likely possibility that it only works when sufficiently massive. What are you basing this "quite likely possibility" on? Computers used to take up entire office floors, now I've got one as powerful or more powerful in my cell phone. This "quite likely possibility" seems to be mainly based on your need to white-knight the Andromeda story. No, your white-knight inclinations to make unfounded conclusions about probabilities isn't all I need. According to what you said, that's exactly what you were doing. Increased range for the ftl drives would definitely be useful in supplementation of exploration since we're "off-the-rails" of the relay network, yes. What are you basing this on? We're never given detailed starcharts plus we're told that less than 1% of the galaxy has been explored. masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Citadel_space#Citadel_SpaceSo, they're willing to do this to go to Andromeda, but not willing to do something more conservative and less risky in the Milky Way? I don't follow your logic. It's already been demonstrated that there are humans and other species that don't want to be regulated regarding where they go and what they do. That market alone would be interested in drives that could help extend their range and exploration possibilities that are currently cut off by Relays being shut down because government aren't willing to take the risk to explore. Of course when you apply market forces to technology it gets cheaper, faster, smaller, better - as demonstrated over and over in real life. Then, in my opinion, you're deliberately ignoring parts of the story that are clashing with the Andromeda story. The strength of the mass relay system is also its weakness. The rapid spread of the rachni was partly due them being able to zoom all over the place using the relay system. If you keep a relay dormant and first explore an area using ftl there are several advantages. 1.) You can approach the system more deliberately. Possibly set up bases in systems not bypassed by the relay network. 2.) If you do contact a hostile race, and if they do overpower you, they have to advance to your territory using the slower FTL drives - if their race can even reverse-engineer the drive in the first place. They haven't been exposed to any relay technology. If you don't advance on their system from the position of a relay, there isn't any way they can extrapolate relay positions using the direction of your approach. 3.) Looking at the Rachni War, it's obvious they wouldn't have been able to advance nearly as rapidly if they had no relay to use in their expansion. I find no basis for which you made this statement. In the Mass Effect universe, less than 1% of the galaxy is explored. The below quote demonstrates how difficult it would be to even get to 1% of galaxy exploration. "By modern estimates there are something like 100 billion stars in this galaxy.
For the current races to explore 1% of the galaxy in the 50,000 years they have had between Reaper cycles, even if they had FTL the day the Reapers left, which they did not, they would need to have explored, on average:
100,000,000,000/50,000=2,000,000
2 millions stars per year or over 5,400 stars per day, every day, for 50,000 years.
Seems very very very very unlikely.
Even if it was "only one tenth of 1 percent of the galaxy has been explored" it is still 540 stars every day for 50,000 years."www.gamefaqs.com/boards/995452-mass-effect-3/65191981With less than 1% of the galaxy explored, we don't have anywhere near enough data to assert "There's no reason to expect the opportunities of further exploration in an accessible cluster to yield anything different in terms of opportunities than exploration of a less accessible cluster."
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Post by Arcian on Dec 11, 2016 2:49:26 GMT
They are both, and no. So far you're treating the inside of the Mass Effect field like it's regular space, which it is not. It makes no sense to me that you could generate an electromagnetic field that is affected by areas of differing physical laws. Being propagated at the speed of light in conventional space, how could it possibly keep up with the ship at FTL speeds? The more sensible conclusion is that an electromagnetic field simply can't extend through the borders of a mass effect field. That would mean the size of the magnetic field is then essentially limited to the size of the Mass Effect field. How do we know how far the mass effect field can extend? We know the field certainly extends beyond the size of the Core itself so that it can encompass the ship but that doesn't mean it can't extend further. Of course it can extend further, but then the inverse square law comes into effect - doubling the size of the field reduces its intensity to one fourth, meaning power consumption has to quadruple to maintain the same intensity of mass reduction. This of course increases exponentially the bigger the field becomes. As ramjet scoops are supposed to generate magnetic fields on the scale of thousands of kilometers in diameter in order to scoop up enough hydrogen, that would mean the mass effect core would need a power supply many orders of magnitude bigger than the original specifications. The ODSY drive is said to be pretty massive. Maybe it's massive so that it can extend the field far beyond the size of the Ark itself. It seems to me we have no way to know how wide that could be. It can be as big as it wants, the limiting factor here is power. I know the codex says that ships keep their thrusters on all the time but that's because they can. They're never too far from a refueling depot. In the AI's case it would not be practical to do that for 600 years and I don't see why they'd need to. Sure they need to keep the drive core powered but that's nothing to do with the thrusters. They aren't going to slow down if they turn the thrusters off so how is it more time efficient to keep them going? It is more efficient because they spend less time in transit. You can walk somewhere in 10 minutes, jog there in 5 or sprint there in 2.5. The amount of energy used stays the same, the only difference is that you arrive earlier the more effort you put in. In other words, you don't actually conserve energy by turning off the engines. All you're doing is spreading out the same energy usage over a greater number of units of time. The only thing you can save then is time, which is the sole reason why Mass Effect star ships accelerate half of the journey and decelerate the other half. The same amount of energy is used, but they ensure no time is lost. Well, yes, but it's a big ship, they can stock pile all the deuterium or whatever they need, surely? Stockpiling it defeats the purpose of having a ram scoop in the first place. What I'm trying to say is that regular hydrogen isn't used in conventional fusion at all. Only its isotopes are used. A bussard ramjet works by electromagnetically compressing hydrogen collected by the scoop until it undergoes thermonuclear fusion, but that's not what the ODSY description states the drive does. At which point do we apply the microscope so closely to a work of science fiction that a given piece starts to come apart? In this case, it's MEA's ODSY Drive Core. It could easily be another point in any number of other works under scrutiny. I am not sure what the goal here truly is. Are we trying to prove that the ODSY Drive can't be built? Well done! I realize that some of you guys really enjoy participating in these lengthy debates. Long discussions can be pretty entertaining to read, at times, as well. These debates can even become the highlights of a given forum, from time to time, but likely not in this case. Each person realizes that he is winning zero converts by continuously talking past the other persons in the thread, yes? Repeating the same arguments over and over will not convince anyone to agree with you. The developers of this game weren't trying to design a functional prototype. They put together an idea that, in their opinion, made sense within the context of their existing scifi setting. Agree or disagree, that's up to the individual fan. The level of granularity being applied to the idea now, though, is amusing. How is it supposed to withstand that? Apply that level of real science to "element zero" and we can just scrap the whole IP. That's the problem though, the idea they put together objectively does not make sense within the context of their existing setting because that existing setting prohibits the idea from working. They still went with it. Why? Because they don't give a shit about making sense or writing a believable universe. As long as they get to put out mindless shooty shooty fucky fucky shit that generates money, they couldn't care less about how much they're defiling the original work that went into this fictional universe.
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Post by Fen'Harel Faceman on Dec 11, 2016 4:42:23 GMT
That's the problem though, the idea they put together objectively does not make sense within the context of their existing setting because that existing setting prohibits the idea from working. They still went with it. Why? Because they don't give a shit about making sense or writing a believable universe. As long as they get to put out mindless shooty shooty fucky fucky shit that generates money, they couldn't care less about how much they're defiling the original work that went into this fictional universe.
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Post by Thrombin on Dec 11, 2016 18:07:48 GMT
The ODSY drive is described as a massive drive. The fact that it's a prototype doesn't change the quite likely possibility that it only works when sufficiently massive. What are you basing this "quite likely possibility" on? Computers used to take up entire office floors, now I've got one as powerful or more powerful in my cell phone. This "quite likely possibility" seems to be mainly based on your need to white-knight the Andromeda story. Not sure what you mean by "white-knight". My inclination is always to try to find a way in which something that appears inconsistent need not be. If that's what you consider white-knight then I'm happy to be a white knight every day of the week. For something to contradict the established lore, which, as I understand it, you are arguing, it needs to be impossible to co-exist with the lore. You need to prove that what I'm saying cannot be the case. It's not enough to say that it might not be the case. Or that I can't prove it. Or that things might change with further research. If it isn't impossible for the idea behind the ODSY drive to be limited to a massive drive core (which is currently the only description of the ODSY drive we have) then you cannot use any argument in your insistence of inconsistency that doesn't also work if the technology requires a massive core and a correspondingly massive ship to work. I can assert it quite easily. The lack of data is precisely why there is no reason to expect them to be any different. You need specific data in order to have a reason. Or specific logic that suggests that inaccessible systems are more likely to yield better opportunities than accessible ones. Otherwise, without any such data or logic there is, indeed, no reason to expect there to be any qualitative difference. If you have a reason I'd be interested to hear it. If you don't have a reason then the assertion is true, by definition. How much of the 99% of unexplored systsms is in accessible space and how much in inaccessible space? By your figures there is easily enough to keep discovering new systems for thousands of millenia without ever straying from relay-accessible clusters even if only 1% is within range of the known relays. There are a lot of drawbacks in both time, cost and difficulty to support any mission to explore outside Relay-accessible space. For anyone to do that there needs to be a clear advantage to doing so. The relays cover all parts of the Galaxy. What is the difference between accessible vs. inaccessible space that would make systems in inaccessible space worth the extra effort to bother with? What would make them more likely to yield better opportunities than unexplored systems in more accessible space. Unless you can come up with a specific reason I don't see why anyone would even try.
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Post by Thrombin on Dec 11, 2016 19:16:06 GMT
How do we know how far the mass effect field can extend? We know the field certainly extends beyond the size of the Core itself so that it can encompass the ship but that doesn't mean it can't extend further. Of course it can extend further, but then the inverse square law comes into effect - doubling the size of the field reduces its intensity to one fourth, meaning power consumption has to quadruple to maintain the same intensity of mass reduction. This of course increases exponentially the bigger the field becomes. As ramjet scoops are supposed to generate magnetic fields on the scale of thousands of kilometers in diameter in order to scoop up enough hydrogen, that would mean the mass effect core would need a power supply many orders of magnitude bigger than the original specifications. That’s true but we have no hard information on what the original specification is. Element Zero is a fictional material using fictional physics. For all we know element zero could be energized with a car battery! Obviously that’s not likely but, you get what I mean. It’s orders of magnitude bigger but since we don’t know how much it needs in the first place it’s perfectly conceivable that the power requirement for the Core is well within the capacity of a futuristic fusion reactor. Or may be it's not the power input that needs to be orders of magnitude bigger. Maybe it's the core and the amount of eezo that needs to be orders of magnitude bigger and the power required is the same? Given that we get to recycle a lot of this power by absorbing the static discharge the actual power requirement rather than eezo requirement may be relatively trivial. It's possible that the ramscoop is to power other systems like life support and thrusters and the power required for the core is only a fraction of that. I guess I’m missing something here. I don’t understand why it would be less time in transit without the thrusters? Once you accelerate up to max speed then there is nothing in space that would slow you down whether you kept the thrusters going or not. If nothing is slowing you down then you can coast infinitely at FTL speed with no thrust at all. Which means the longer you have to travel the more fuel efficient that initial acceleration becomes. Or are you suggesting there is no set maximum? If that were the case then FTL speeds should vary depending on distance. The further you have to go, the faster the speed becomes because you are constantly accelerating. However, FTL speeds in the Codex aren’t relativistic they are absolute fixed velocities. That implies there is a maximum. Mind you, I suppose at FTL speed the density of galactic space may mean that you do need to keep the thrusters going to overcome the resistance of the medium but then it makes sense, with intergalactic space being far less dense, that such a requirement would not be so necessary for intergalactic travel. Ah, I hadn’t realised that. Fair enough
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Post by Element Zero on Dec 11, 2016 20:01:05 GMT
At which point do we apply the microscope so closely to a work of science fiction that a given piece starts to come apart? In this case, it's MEA's ODSY Drive Core. It could easily be another point in any number of other works under scrutiny. I am not sure what the goal here truly is. Are we trying to prove that the ODSY Drive can't be built? Well done! I realize that some of you guys really enjoy participating in these lengthy debates. Long discussions can be pretty entertaining to read, at times, as well. These debates can even become the highlights of a given forum, from time to time, but likely not in this case. Each person realizes that he is winning zero converts by continuously talking past the other persons in the thread, yes? Repeating the same arguments over and over will not convince anyone to agree with you. The developers of this game weren't trying to design a functional prototype. They put together an idea that, in their opinion, made sense within the context of their existing scifi setting. Agree or disagree, that's up to the individual fan. The level of granularity being applied to the idea now, though, is amusing. How is it supposed to withstand that? Apply that level of real science to "element zero" and we can just scrap the whole IP. That's the problem though, the idea they put together objectively does not make sense within the context of their existing setting because that existing setting prohibits the idea from working. They still went with it. Why? Because they don't give a shit about making sense or writing a believable universe. As long as they get to put out mindless shooty shooty fucky fucky shit that generates money, they couldn't care less about how much they're defiling the original work that went into this fictional universe. I disagree. I suspect that the writers still care quite a bit about this IP. We knew that there would be some BS involved to get to Andromeda. Compared to what I expected, this is practically nothing. This drive isn't bad at all, in the context of this IP's ridiculous tech, and nothing here is as "objective" as you're trying to make it. (I find the motivations behind the trip more head-scratching, but I'm willing to wait and see what "secret motivations" and the like are revealed.) If you gents attacked the setting with the same vigor and skill with which you attack this premise, the whole IP would crumble. It was never designed to withstand legitimate scrutiny. It's space fantasy with some fun splashes of pseudo-science. That's all any scifi really is, in the end. It doesn't ultimately matter whether the Citadel Council species developed their own ODSY Drives and had 100 of them active in time for the Reaper War. This wouldn't have won the war, in the end. We could've run a little longer, but the reapers still would've found us. Shepard won the war long before ODSY drives became critically relevant, so why is this even a concern? The drives would be absolutely civilization-shaping post-War, but we won't be around to see that. I'm not sure if the above is even the current, on-going argument, since I just logged-in for the day. I know it was an argument. You and Fen'Harel Faceman are smart guys and gifted debaters, so you could string this thing along until the end of time, even if you had no basis for complaint. The fact that there are cracks in the IP means that this conversation could circle forever. My personal view is that the IP was never without logical flaws, even in its beautiful ME1 infancy, and this is just the awkward transition that we all knew was coming when Andromeda was announced. It is a hell of a lot less awkward than I expected. This is because the writers do care, and are trying their best with the burnt wreck that Casey left them and the Andromeda mandate that they've been given. I think they did alright. They got us to Andromeda in reasonable fashion, and now we can get on with the remaining 98% of the game, the next Mass Effect story.
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