Arcian
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Post by Arcian on Dec 11, 2016 22:10:22 GMT
That's the problem though, the idea they put together objectively does not make sense within the context of their existing setting because that existing setting prohibits the idea from working. They still went with it. Why? Because they don't give a shit about making sense or writing a believable universe. As long as they get to put out mindless shooty shooty fucky fucky shit that generates money, they couldn't care less about how much they're defiling the original work that went into this fictional universe. My personal view is that the IP was never without logical flaws, even in its beautiful ME1 infancy Of course it wasn't perfect, and I was completely okay with that. More than okay, actually, I fucking loved it - near damn worshipped it, even. The issue is not that they're getting things wrong, the issue is that they're getting things wrong they previously got right. I'm not criticizing Andromeda because it fails to adhere to the standards of reality, I am criticizing it because it fails to adhere to the standards of the previous games.
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Post by Element Zero on Dec 11, 2016 22:39:36 GMT
My personal view is that the IP was never without logical flaws, even in its beautiful ME1 infancy Of course it wasn't perfect, and I was completely okay with that. More than okay, actually, I fucking loved it - near damn worshipped it, even. The issue is not that they're getting things wrong, the issue is that they're getting things wrong they previously got right. I'm not criticizing Andromeda because it fails to adhere to the standards of reality, I am criticizing it because it fails to adhere to the standards of the previous games. I get where you're coming from; I don't feel that I know enough to feel the same, but I understand. I hope I don't end up feeling the same. I'd hate to have to post, "Arcian was right all along", and not because I mind being wrong. If I ever feel they've failed to live up to the Mass Effect standard, I'll walk away from the setting. So far, I feel cautiously optimistic.
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Post by Arcian on Dec 11, 2016 22:58:09 GMT
Of course it can extend further, but then the inverse square law comes into effect - doubling the size of the field reduces its intensity to one fourth, meaning power consumption has to quadruple to maintain the same intensity of mass reduction. This of course increases exponentially the bigger the field becomes. As ramjet scoops are supposed to generate magnetic fields on the scale of thousands of kilometers in diameter in order to scoop up enough hydrogen, that would mean the mass effect core would need a power supply many orders of magnitude bigger than the original specifications. That’s true but we have no hard information on what the original specification is. Element Zero is a fictional material using fictional physics. For all we know element zero could be energized with a car battery! Obviously that’s not likely but, you get what I mean. It’s orders of magnitude bigger but since we don’t know how much it needs in the first place it’s perfectly conceivable that the power requirement for the Core is well within the capacity of a futuristic fusion reactor. Or may be it's not the power input that needs to be orders of magnitude bigger. Maybe it's the core and the amount of eezo that needs to be orders of magnitude bigger and the power required is the same? Given that we get to recycle a lot of this power by absorbing the static discharge the actual power requirement rather than eezo requirement may be relatively trivial. It's possible that the ramscoop is to power other systems like life support and thrusters and the power required for the core is only a fraction of that. That would mean they have to bring along 600 years of fuel from the get-go, which isn't what the ODSY description is implying they will do. I guess I’m missing something here. I don’t understand why it would be less time in transit without the thrusters? Once you accelerate up to max speed then there is nothing in space that would slow you down whether you kept the thrusters going or not. If nothing is slowing you down then you can coast infinitely at FTL speed with no thrust at all. Which means the longer you have to travel the more fuel efficient that initial acceleration becomes. The speed, or more accurately the light speed factor, of the FTL drive is limited by the size of the eezo core as well as the mass of the ship. A small ship with a small eezo core can chug along at a decent pace, while a small ship with a large eezo core - such as the Normandy - are insanely fast. The fact that the ODSY is a massive drive doesn't really make it special, it just means it matches the gargantuan size of the Arks, providing no speed benefit over a smaller vessel using a smaller eezo core. Large cores installed in large ships also suffers the drawback of having to discharge more often, and having to discharge for longer periods of time. The FTL drive is just a physics shortcut, the actual motive power is provided by the conventional engines of the ship. As for why they just don't put the pedal to the metal to quickly reach maximum speed? That's actually what they're doing. Maximum speed in this case is the local light speed (which is several thousand times higher than the universal speed of light thanks to the FTL field). Because there is negligible drag in space, acceleration increases exponentially over time. That's why they keep accelerating throughout the journey, because they never actually reach maximum speed. Drifting is just a waste of time. The reason why we let our real life spacecraft drift has less to do with conservation of fuel and more to do with hitting our targets. That's why they do calculated burns that bring the craft on an intercept trajectory with the intended target, after which the engines are cut off. The more accurate the initial burns are, the fewer correction burns they have to perform later. This is how fuel is conserved in real life space missions. Of course, for the Andromeda Initiative, both the scale and the speeds involved are so ludicrously large that drift and calculated burns become obsolete concepts. FTL travel is all about lining up with your target, accelerating from start to finish and turning the ship around at the halfway point so the ship doesn't sail past its intended destination. What drifting would save in fuel, it wastes in time and power consumption. Or are you suggesting there is no set maximum? If that were the case then FTL speeds should vary depending on distance. The further you have to go, the faster the speed becomes because you are constantly accelerating. However, FTL speeds in the Codex aren’t relativistic they are absolute fixed velocities. That implies there is a maximum. The "speed" of the FTL drive is just a light speed modifier, the actual speed of the ship is provided by the ship's conventional engines, which has the speed of light as its maximum speed limit. How fast they reach that speed limit depends in the specific impulse of the particular type of thruster. It's easy to throw around the numbers in the codex and think of them as absolute numbers (I certainly have at times), but I believe it is more accurate to think of them as average speeds over the duration of a journey. The number I keep referencing is 4380 times the speed of light, which is derived from a conversation with Ashley when she described a commercial cruise over a distance of 12 light years taking 24 hours. This falls neatly in line with the speed of the Arks, which are said to travel to Andromeda in the span of 600 years. At the same speed as Ashley's commercial FTL flight, it will take 570 years to travel to Andromeda. Now, they don't start or end at either edge of the Milky Way and Andromeda galaxies, so the 30 year difference is likely the time it takes them to leave the Milky Way and journey to the Helius Cluster once they have arrived in Andromeda. Mind you, I suppose at FTL speed the density of galactic space may mean that you do need to keep the thrusters going to overcome the resistance of the medium but then it makes sense, with intergalactic space being far less dense, that such a requirement would not be so necessary for intergalactic travel. The density of interstellar space is negligible in terms of drag - intergalactic space even more so. It's not really something that factors into standard space travel. It's more a specific problem for ramjet bussards. Of course it wasn't perfect, and I was completely okay with that. More than okay, actually, I fucking loved it - near damn worshipped it, even. The issue is not that they're getting things wrong, the issue is that they're getting things wrong they previously got right. I'm not criticizing Andromeda because it fails to adhere to the standards of reality, I am criticizing it because it fails to adhere to the standards of the previous games. I get where you're coming from; I don't feel that I know enough to feel the same, but I understand. I hope I don't end up feeling the same. I'd hate to have to post, "Arcian was right all along", and not because I mind being wrong. If I ever feel they've failed to live up to the Mass Effect standard, I'll walk away from the setting. So far, I feel cautiously optimistic. Trust me, no one wants me to be wrong more than I do. I love this franchise and don't want to see it ruined. Unfortunately, that's exactly what it feels like BioWare is doing.
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Post by Ahriman on Dec 12, 2016 8:00:02 GMT
Dozens of pages arguing about lore and technical limitations and here we go Deal with it, haters. Static charge is now used as power source, genius solution. Oh, and it still begs the question: where the fuck was this amazing technology during the Reaper War? *sigh* My sarcasm game was never strong, but I can't stop myself.
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Arcian
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, SWTOR, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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XBL Gamertag: GVArcian
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Post by Arcian on Dec 12, 2016 13:20:31 GMT
Oh, and it still begs the question: where the fuck was this amazing technology during the Reaper War? *sigh* My sarcasm game was never strong, but I can't stop myself. Such is the life of Reapfield.
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Post by commandercryptarch on Dec 12, 2016 15:25:18 GMT
That was the game I really wanted, as excited as I presently am for Andromeda. I wanted, coincidentally, to lead an exploratory mission through an unmapped relay. Maybe something would go wrong and we'd get stranded, cut-off from help? I discussed it at length with JeffZero, if I recall correctly. Even better - because the Mass Relays were damaged and rendered non-functional by the Catalyst, a whoooooole lot of previously mapped territory is now unmapped. You'd have a galaxy-wide Fallout situation where you delve deeper into the galaxy to find the survivors having formed tribes and societies far removed from what they once were from before the war. Also, I've done the math on the ram-scoop:
3,141,592.65 (surface area of 1km radius circular scoop in m2) x 1,314,000,000,000 (meters traversed by an FTL engine in 1 second) = 4,128,052,742,100,000,000 (hydrogen atoms collected per second) This is two orders of magnitude, or 100 times, less hydrogen atoms than there are in a single, 1 gram drop of water. What that means is that they collect a kilogram of hydrogen in 28 hours, a ton in 3.2 years, and over the course of 600 years, a total of 187 tons of hydrogen. Just to put that into perspective, the second stage of a 1969 Saturn V rocket was fueled with 984 tons of hydrogen, which was spent in its entirety before the spacecraft reached orbit. That means that the Ark would collect a fifth of a second stage Saturn V hydrogen tank over the course of 600 years. Let me repeat that: the total amount of fuel they would collect over the course of six centuries is equal to a fifth of the second stage of a 1969 Saturn V rocket. Tell me again about how genius BioWare's solutions are. "Mass Effect : Rediscovery"...That would be actually brilliant!Exploring the Milky Way all from thw beginning.
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Post by Iakus on Dec 12, 2016 15:53:01 GMT
That was the game I really wanted, as excited as I presently am for Andromeda. I wanted, coincidentally, to lead an exploratory mission through an unmapped relay. Maybe something would go wrong and we'd get stranded, cut-off from help? I discussed it at length with JeffZero, if I recall correctly. Even better - because the Mass Relays were damaged and rendered non-functional by the Catalyst, a whoooooole lot of previously mapped territory is now unmapped. You'd have a galaxy-wide Fallout situation where you delve deeper into the galaxy to find the survivors having formed tribes and societies far removed from what they once were from before the war. Also, I've done the math on the ram-scoop:
3,141,592.65 (surface area of 1km radius circular scoop in m2) x 1,314,000,000,000 (meters traversed by an FTL engine in 1 second) = 4,128,052,742,100,000,000 (hydrogen atoms collected per second) This is two orders of magnitude, or 100 times, less hydrogen atoms than there are in a single, 1 gram drop of water. What that means is that they collect a kilogram of hydrogen in 28 hours, a ton in 3.2 years, and over the course of 600 years, a total of 187 tons of hydrogen. Just to put that into perspective, the second stage of a 1969 Saturn V rocket was fueled with 984 tons of hydrogen, which was spent in its entirety before the spacecraft reached orbit. That means that the Ark would collect a fifth of a second stage Saturn V hydrogen tank over the course of 600 years. Let me repeat that: the total amount of fuel they would collect over the course of six centuries is equal to a fifth of the second stage of a 1969 Saturn V rocket. Tell me again about how genius BioWare's solutions are. I don't disagree that Bioware is suffering from Critical Research Failures. But just to play Devil's Advocate... By my rather hasty calculations, judging by an average speed of 15 light years per day, six hundred years is more than a century longer than needed to get to Andromeda. The promo on the MEA site also shows a path that seems to zigzag at times. Is it possible that at certain points on the trip the ships drop out of FTL to harvest hydrogen/Helium-3/whatever from stray gas giants, asteroids, and such? They'd be rare, sure, but not nonexistent, I would think. Such side trips could add decades or centuries to a voyage, but not as much as coasting on stray hydrogen atoms.
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Post by themikefest on Dec 12, 2016 17:14:05 GMT
It doesn't ultimately matter whether the Citadel Council species developed their own ODSY Drives and had 100 of them active in time for the Reaper War. This wouldn't have won the war, in the end. We could've run a little longer, but the reapers still would've found us. Shepard won the war long before ODSY drives became critically relevant, so why is this even a concern? The drives would be absolutely civilization-shaping post-War, but we won't be around to see that. I do agree that it wouldn't make a difference. It doesn't matter what the project has that could help with dealing with the reapers. The reapers win by numbers alone. Even if the project had something that would have the council fleets one-shot a reaper, they still lose because they don't have the numbers to match the reapers. Shepard was able to defeat Saren and Sovereign only because the protheans altered the signal. In ME3, Shepard built alliances with the other species, but made it to lala land to face dumb dumb because Bioware made the reapers stupid. Had the reapers not been made stupid, the game would be about 15 minutes long with half of that for the credits. If the trilogy were to be remade, maybe some of the stuff the project used for Andromeda could be mentioned or implemented into the trilogy.
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Post by maximusarael020 on Dec 12, 2016 17:50:34 GMT
Whoa whoa whoa, just hold the phone one gosh darn second. Are you telling me that the science in a video game utilizing made-up technology and made-up elements isn't 100% scientifically accurate?!? Next you are going to tell me that building a giant planet-blowing-up space station is infeasible and that all the problems that happen in Star Trek can't be explained by a "phase variance"!! What will I do with my life now if my virtual entertainment doesn't hold up to the rigors of deep scientific scrutiny??
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Post by maximusarael020 on Dec 12, 2016 17:54:26 GMT
I don't disagree that Bioware is suffering from Critical Research Failures. But just to play Devil's Advocate... By my rather hasty calculations, judging by an average speed of 15 light years per day, six hundred years is more than a century longer than needed to get to Andromeda. The promo on the MEA site also shows a path that seems to zigzag at times. Is it possible that at certain points on the trip the ships drop out of FTL to harvest hydrogen/Helium-3/whatever from stray gas giants, asteroids, and such? They'd be rare, sure, but not nonexistent, I would think. Such side trips could add decades or centuries to a voyage, but not as much as coasting on stray hydrogen atoms. I disagree that this is a "Critical Research Failure". A CRF is when something is so bad that someone with a HIGH SCHOOL education would know that it is made up/wrong. I don't feel that anything mentioned here would bother someone with just a high school education. Just look at the research and calculations being done. Waaaay above average high school knowledge.
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Post by azarhal on Dec 12, 2016 17:54:55 GMT
Whoa whoa whoa, just hold the phone one gosh darn second. Are you telling me that the science in a video game utilizing made-up technology and made-up elements isn't 100% scientifically accurate?!? Next you are going to tell me that building a giant planet-blowing-up space station is infeasible and that all the problems that happen in Star Trek can't be explained by a "phase variance"!! What will I do with my life now if my virtual entertainment doesn't hold up to the rigors of deep scientific scrutiny?? Start your own Eezo cult? It's not like scientific accuracy has much weight in people's belief in real life anyway.
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Post by Kantr on Dec 12, 2016 18:09:08 GMT
Even better - because the Mass Relays were damaged and rendered non-functional by the Catalyst, a whoooooole lot of previously mapped territory is now unmapped. You'd have a galaxy-wide Fallout situation where you delve deeper into the galaxy to find the survivors having formed tribes and societies far removed from what they once were from before the war. Also, I've done the math on the ram-scoop:
3,141,592.65 (surface area of 1km radius circular scoop in m2) x 1,314,000,000,000 (meters traversed by an FTL engine in 1 second) = 4,128,052,742,100,000,000 (hydrogen atoms collected per second) This is two orders of magnitude, or 100 times, less hydrogen atoms than there are in a single, 1 gram drop of water. What that means is that they collect a kilogram of hydrogen in 28 hours, a ton in 3.2 years, and over the course of 600 years, a total of 187 tons of hydrogen. Just to put that into perspective, the second stage of a 1969 Saturn V rocket was fueled with 984 tons of hydrogen, which was spent in its entirety before the spacecraft reached orbit. That means that the Ark would collect a fifth of a second stage Saturn V hydrogen tank over the course of 600 years. Let me repeat that: the total amount of fuel they would collect over the course of six centuries is equal to a fifth of the second stage of a 1969 Saturn V rocket. Tell me again about how genius BioWare's solutions are. I don't disagree that Bioware is suffering from Critical Research Failures. But just to play Devil's Advocate... By my rather hasty calculations, judging by an average speed of 15 light years per day, six hundred years is more than a century longer than needed to get to Andromeda. The promo on the MEA site also shows a path that seems to zigzag at times. Is it possible that at certain points on the trip the ships drop out of FTL to harvest hydrogen/Helium-3/whatever from stray gas giants, asteroids, and such? They'd be rare, sure, but not nonexistent, I would think. Such side trips could add decades or centuries to a voyage, but not as much as coasting on stray hydrogen atoms. You wouldn't harvest asteroids. Maybe rogue stars and Gas giants. Arcian do your calculations take into account the fact that there's only one hydrogen atom per cubic meter outside the galaxy?
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Post by sjsharp2010 on Dec 12, 2016 19:24:54 GMT
Can I get drunk at the Vortex Lounge? Is the turian homeworld Palaven? Yes it is
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Post by The Biotic Trebuchet on Dec 12, 2016 20:44:30 GMT
C'mon!, why do you want to search for "la quinta pata del gato" of this game?, it's a GAME ffs... Joder dude...
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Post by Sifr on Dec 12, 2016 21:05:12 GMT
By my rather hasty calculations, judging by an average speed of 15 light years per day, six hundred years is more than a century longer than needed to get to Andromeda. The promo on the MEA site also shows a path that seems to zigzag at times. Is it possible that at certain points on the trip the ships drop out of FTL to harvest hydrogen/Helium-3/whatever from stray gas giants, asteroids, and such? They'd be rare, sure, but not nonexistent, I would think. Such side trips could add decades or centuries to a voyage, but not as much as coasting on stray hydrogen atoms. There are several satellite galaxies orbiting both the Milky Way and Andromeda. Might be that the Arks detoured through a few of them in order to harvest and replenish it's fuel reserves, hence the zig-zag flight-plan that we see depicted in the briefing?
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, SWTOR, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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XBL Gamertag: GVArcian
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Post by Arcian on Dec 12, 2016 21:21:32 GMT
Even better - because the Mass Relays were damaged and rendered non-functional by the Catalyst, a whoooooole lot of previously mapped territory is now unmapped. You'd have a galaxy-wide Fallout situation where you delve deeper into the galaxy to find the survivors having formed tribes and societies far removed from what they once were from before the war. Also, I've done the math on the ram-scoop:
3,141,592.65 (surface area of 1km radius circular scoop in m2) x 1,314,000,000,000 (meters traversed by an FTL engine in 1 second) = 4,128,052,742,100,000,000 (hydrogen atoms collected per second) This is two orders of magnitude, or 100 times, less hydrogen atoms than there are in a single, 1 gram drop of water. What that means is that they collect a kilogram of hydrogen in 28 hours, a ton in 3.2 years, and over the course of 600 years, a total of 187 tons of hydrogen. Just to put that into perspective, the second stage of a 1969 Saturn V rocket was fueled with 984 tons of hydrogen, which was spent in its entirety before the spacecraft reached orbit. That means that the Ark would collect a fifth of a second stage Saturn V hydrogen tank over the course of 600 years. Let me repeat that: the total amount of fuel they would collect over the course of six centuries is equal to a fifth of the second stage of a 1969 Saturn V rocket. Tell me again about how genius BioWare's solutions are. I don't disagree that Bioware is suffering from Critical Research Failures. But just to play Devil's Advocate... By my rather hasty calculations, judging by an average speed of 15 light years per day, six hundred years is more than a century longer than needed to get to Andromeda. The promo on the MEA site also shows a path that seems to zigzag at times. Is it possible that at certain points on the trip the ships drop out of FTL to harvest hydrogen/Helium-3/whatever from stray gas giants, asteroids, and such? They'd be rare, sure, but not nonexistent, I would think. Such side trips could add decades or centuries to a voyage, but not as much as coasting on stray hydrogen atoms. I think the more simple explanation is that they are doing course corrections. Arcian do your calculations take into account the fact that there's only one hydrogen atom per cubic meter outside the galaxy? Yes. Whoa whoa whoa, just hold the phone one gosh darn second. Are you telling me that the science in a video game utilizing made-up technology and made-up elements isn't 100% scientifically accurate?!? Next you are going to tell me that building a giant planet-blowing-up space station is infeasible and that all the problems that happen in Star Trek can't be explained by a "phase variance"!! What will I do with my life now if my virtual entertainment doesn't hold up to the rigors of deep scientific scrutiny?? Like I've said all along, this is not a case of ME:A vs reality, this is a case of ME:A vs ME1-3. ME:A is a side story that sets itself in the same universe and timeline as the original trilogy, ergo the rules of the original trilogy apply to MEA. There's just a teeny tiny problem - they don't. ME:A violates the rules of the original trilogy in order to enable this ludicrous exodus by giving the galactic civilization technology they didn't have in ME2 and ME3. They can entirely negate the discharge problem of the Arks by converting the static buildup into power for the ship's systems, yet this amazing, groundbreaking technology is NOWHERE to be seen in ME3 where it would have massively benefitted the war effort against the Reapers. That's the problem with BioWare, they are retconning technology into existence because the Andromeda scenario would be impossible without it, and my grievance is that since they're stooping to retcons, they could just as well have retconned their reviled endings out of existence instead of messing irreparably with the lore.
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azarhal
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Post by azarhal on Dec 12, 2016 21:34:43 GMT
By my rather hasty calculations, judging by an average speed of 15 light years per day, six hundred years is more than a century longer than needed to get to Andromeda. The promo on the MEA site also shows a path that seems to zigzag at times. Is it possible that at certain points on the trip the ships drop out of FTL to harvest hydrogen/Helium-3/whatever from stray gas giants, asteroids, and such? They'd be rare, sure, but not nonexistent, I would think. Such side trips could add decades or centuries to a voyage, but not as much as coasting on stray hydrogen atoms. There are several satellite galaxies orbiting both the Milky Way and Andromeda. Might be that the Arks detoured through a few of them in order to harvest and replenish it's fuel reserves, hence the zig-zag flight-plan that we see depicted in the briefing? The zig-zag is most probably a mix of intergalactic stars and rogue planets along route correction.
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Post by Sifr on Dec 12, 2016 21:54:59 GMT
Yeah, the constant movement of the Andromeda Galaxy through space over the past 2.5 million years would necessitate some stops to realign their heading. It'd get easier the closer they got to Andromeda, as the light from it has far less distance to travel and can provide them more accurate measurements to extrapolate the galaxy's precise course and speed, allowing them to calculate a shorter trip that can save fuel.
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Post by ProbeAway on Dec 12, 2016 21:55:12 GMT
I don't disagree that Bioware is suffering from Critical Research Failures. But just to play Devil's Advocate... By my rather hasty calculations, judging by an average speed of 15 light years per day, six hundred years is more than a century longer than needed to get to Andromeda. The promo on the MEA site also shows a path that seems to zigzag at times. Is it possible that at certain points on the trip the ships drop out of FTL to harvest hydrogen/Helium-3/whatever from stray gas giants, asteroids, and such? They'd be rare, sure, but not nonexistent, I would think. Such side trips could add decades or centuries to a voyage, but not as much as coasting on stray hydrogen atoms. I think the more simple explanation is that they are doing course corrections. Arcian do your calculations take into account the fact that there's only one hydrogen atom per cubic meter outside the galaxy? Yes. Whoa whoa whoa, just hold the phone one gosh darn second. Are you telling me that the science in a video game utilizing made-up technology and made-up elements isn't 100% scientifically accurate?!? Next you are going to tell me that building a giant planet-blowing-up space station is infeasible and that all the problems that happen in Star Trek can't be explained by a "phase variance"!! What will I do with my life now if my virtual entertainment doesn't hold up to the rigors of deep scientific scrutiny?? Like I've said all along, this is not a case of ME:A vs reality, this is a case of ME:A vs ME1-3. ME:A is a side story that sets itself in the same universe and timeline as the original trilogy, ergo the rules of the original trilogy apply to MEA. There's just a teeny tiny problem - they don't. ME:A violates the rules of the original trilogy in order to enable this ludicrous exodus by giving the galactic civilization technology they didn't have in ME2 and ME3. They can entirely negate the discharge problem of the Arks by converting the static buildup into power for the ship's systems, yet this amazing, groundbreaking technology is NOWHERE to be seen in ME3 where it would have massively benefitted the war effort against the Reapers. That's the problem with BioWare, they are retconning technology into existence because the Andromeda scenario would be impossible without it, and my grievance is that since they're stooping to retcons, they could just as well have retconned their reviled endings out of existence instead of messing irreparably with the lore. I get that the sudden appearance of a new technology not referenced in the trilogy is jarring, but it was always going to take some hand-waving to get to Andromeda. I don't think that this is a bad effort, considering the corner they put themselves in. It's one stepping stone to enjoying a new game that doesn't have the baggage of ME3. I guess we need to decide individually whether it's a step too far to accept. I'm dubious that this technology would have been much use in the reaper war anyway. Ultimately, all it really does is allow you to travel longer distances without discharging. The reapers were still faster and the only way to beat them was to find a way to destroy them. We couldn't have moved Earth, Palaven, Thessia, etc to prevent them from being besieged. FWIW, I was very much in favour of BW just choosing a specific galactic state for the Milky Way following ME3, and focussing on picking up the pieces with new characters in ME4. It could have made for an incredibly different game in a recognisable setting.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 12, 2016 22:18:02 GMT
It was entirely possible for the Milky Way species to travel to Andromeda without the writers needing to introduce new technology into the lore.
Static discharge technology for deep space was said to exist during the Shepard trilogy. It is used on the Citadel and other large space stations. The Andromeda project would just need to port existing technology to space ships, rather than invent the tech from scratch. Bioware didn't go that route, but they could have. Maybe someone forgot that static discharge facilities for deep space were already mentioned in a codex entry
Refueling would be the other big obstacle, but that one could have easily been hand-waved by a real world fact about the universe. As many as half of all stars in existence are thought to be 'rogues' that exist between galaxies, so Bioware could have just had the arks travel in a zig-zag course, using the rogue stars and their orbiting planets to fill the ships' tanks.
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Post by maximusarael020 on Dec 12, 2016 22:23:48 GMT
Whoa whoa whoa, just hold the phone one gosh darn second. Are you telling me that the science in a video game utilizing made-up technology and made-up elements isn't 100% scientifically accurate?!? Next you are going to tell me that building a giant planet-blowing-up space station is infeasible and that all the problems that happen in Star Trek can't be explained by a "phase variance"!! What will I do with my life now if my virtual entertainment doesn't hold up to the rigors of deep scientific scrutiny?? Like I've said all along, this is not a case of ME:A vs reality, this is a case of ME:A vs ME1-3. ME:A is a side story that sets itself in the same universe and timeline as the original trilogy, ergo the rules of the original trilogy apply to MEA. There's just a teeny tiny problem - they don't. ME:A violates the rules of the original trilogy in order to enable this ludicrous exodus by giving the galactic civilization technology they didn't have in ME2 and ME3. They can entirely negate the discharge problem of the Arks by converting the static buildup into power for the ship's systems, yet this amazing, groundbreaking technology is NOWHERE to be seen in ME3 where it would have massively benefitted the war effort against the Reapers. That's the problem with BioWare, they are retconning technology into existence because the Andromeda scenario would be impossible without it, and my grievance is that since they're stooping to retcons, they could just as well have retconned their reviled endings out of existence instead of messing irreparably with the lore. My comment was mostly directed at the people doing calculations of how much hydrogen would be required to fuel the ARKs, how much hydrogen there is in interstellar space, etc. I mean the truth is we have no idea how much fuel it requires to propel an ARK anyway, so any comparison to Saturn rockets or anything like that is moot because we have no idea the efficiency of ME engines, exactly how Eezo works, etc. Your point about irreparably messing with the lore seems a little over the top. I mean, it's a mild retcon. No one having said anything about the Andromeda Initiative or the ODSY drive is curious, but not lore-breaking. I also disagree with it benefiting the war against the Reapers. I don't remember any mention of scarce fuel (although there were destroyed fuel hubs), but the thing that the endings came down to was that it didn't matter the military strength of the MW or how efficient their engines were. It required a deus ex machina to defeat the Reapers, and no Prius version of a Dreadnought was going to help defeat the Repears any more than if their ships ran on no fuel at all. And if we assume that only ships as big as the ARKs are able to utilize the ODSY drive, then only very few ships would have been able to use it in the MW anyway, making the war-effort impact of the ODSY drive basically zero. Retconning a piece of technology that has basically one purpose into the OT and glossing over the fact that no one mentioned to War-Hero Shep that there were people that had attempted to leave the galaxy is very small compared to altering the decisions everyone made in their playthroughs for a canon ending. People who are mad about MEA would have found a reason to be mad no matter what, if they had retconned the OT endings or went to Andromeda or even did a Rachni War prequel. Haters gunna hate. I, for one, didn't hate the endings at all, and I think it's time to get over it anyway. If you want to let the endings ruin your love of an amazing game trilogy, then I feel bad for ya son. I've got 99 problems, but being hung up on a video game ending because it wasn't what I wanted aint one.
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Post by Kantr on Dec 12, 2016 22:28:33 GMT
Yeah, the constant movement of the Andromeda Galaxy through space over the past 2.5 million years would necessitate some stops to realign their heading. It'd get easier the closer they got to Andromeda, as the light from it has far less distance to travel and can provide them more accurate measurements to extrapolate the galaxy's precise course and speed, allowing them to calculate a shorter trip that can save fuel. Possibly but you should be able to anticipate where Andromeda will actually be just by checking when you reach the edge of the galaxy, seeing as both galaxies are moving towards each other. Rogue stars you would be able to see as they'd be travelling extremely fast relative to eveything else. In fact the current record is 30 million mph (a few percent of C) I do hope they will explain it all in the game rather than just having us wake up in Andromeda. I would also like to know how you can possibly scoop hydrogen while travelling at FTl speeds. What about the reapers lurking on the edge of the galaxy as well? Arcian Most of the fuel for the Saturn V was used to get the Rocket off the ground. Maybe they have super efficeint reactors? (Honestly they shouldn't have put that line in about scooping for fuel. It's not really possibly even with 1 atom per centimetre)
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Post by Fen'Harel Faceman on Dec 12, 2016 22:41:48 GMT
Like I've said all along, this is not a case of ME:A vs reality, this is a case of ME:A vs ME1-3. ME:A is a side story that sets itself in the same universe and timeline as the original trilogy, ergo the rules of the original trilogy apply to MEA. There's just a teeny tiny problem - they don't. ME:A violates the rules of the original trilogy in order to enable this ludicrous exodus by giving the galactic civilization technology they didn't have in ME2 and ME3. They can entirely negate the discharge problem of the Arks by converting the static buildup into power for the ship's systems, yet this amazing, groundbreaking technology is NOWHERE to be seen in ME3 where it would have massively benefitted the war effort against the Reapers. That's the problem with BioWare, they are retconning technology into existence because the Andromeda scenario would be impossible without it, and my grievance is that since they're stooping to retcons, they could just as well have retconned their reviled endings out of existence instead of messing irreparably with the lore. My comment was mostly directed at the people doing calculations of how much hydrogen would be required to fuel the ARKs, how much hydrogen there is in interstellar space, etc. I mean the truth is we have no idea how much fuel it requires to propel an ARK anyway, so any comparison to Saturn rockets or anything like that is moot because we have no idea the efficiency of ME engines, exactly how Eezo works, etc. Your point about irreparably messing with the lore seems a little over the top. I mean, it's a mild retcon. No one having said anything about the Andromeda Initiative or the ODSY drive is curious, but not lore-breaking. I also disagree with it benefiting the war against the Reapers. I don't remember any mention of scarce fuel (although there were destroyed fuel hubs), but the thing that the endings came down to was that it didn't matter the military strength of the MW or how efficient their engines were. It required a deus ex machina to defeat the Reapers, and no Prius version of a Dreadnought was going to help defeat the Repears any more than if their ships ran on no fuel at all. And if we assume that only ships as big as the ARKs are able to utilize the ODSY drive, then only very few ships would have been able to use it in the MW anyway, making the war-effort impact of the ODSY drive basically zero. Retconning a piece of technology that has basically one purpose into the OT and glossing over the fact that no one mentioned to War-Hero Shep that there were people that had attempted to leave the galaxy is very small compared to altering the decisions everyone made in their playthroughs for a canon ending. People who are mad about MEA would have found a reason to be mad no matter what, if they had retconned the OT endings or went to Andromeda or even did a Rachni War prequel. Haters gunna hate. I, for one, didn't hate the endings at all, and I think it's time to get over it anyway. If you want to let the endings ruin your love of an amazing game trilogy, then I feel bad for ya son. I've got 99 problems, but being hung up on a video game ending because it wasn't what I wanted aint one. Wow, attacking people's opinions about the ME3 ending isn't the way to go about making a pro-Andromeda argument. How effective would it be if I told you to get over people not getting over the ME3 ending? Because apparently you're not over it. It wouldn't be very effective. Not that this was what was being addressed. People wanted the Andromeda story to be retcon-free. Bioware could have pulled that off, they didn't. It's just more of the same sloppy story telling we saw from Walters and co before. That's a legit criticism and trying to shut it down by saying "get over it" or that it's "over-the-top" isn't going to work. If it works for you, great. But you aren't spending my dollars. I am. If I and others want to assess this product and see if it measures up, that's our prerogative. And of course, the ME trilogy is going to be involved in that evaluation. Some people keep harping that the new drive tech "wouldn't have made a real difference" in the Reaper war. That of course, is nonsense. Thousands of people apparently were enabled to escape that couldn't escape before. The whole premise of the ME Trilogy was that the galaxy was caught in a Reaper trap. This introduces a way to get out of the trap. That would have been a big deal. That is a big deal. Telling folks to "get over it" isn't going to change anything.
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Post by azarhal on Dec 13, 2016 0:17:00 GMT
Some people keep harping that the new drive tech "wouldn't have made a real difference" in the Reaper war. That of course, is nonsense. Thousands of people apparently were enabled to escape that couldn't escape before. The whole premise of the ME Trilogy was that the galaxy was caught in a Reaper trap. This introduces a way to get out of the trap. That would have been a big deal. That is a big deal. Telling folks to "get over it" isn't going to change anything. The OSDY drives doesn't offer anything over normal FTL drives to escape the Reapers trap. The speed is the same, people aboard the ship still need supplies (food, clothes, etc), they still need to sleep, they still need to make repairs. The hydrogen scoop isn't a new invention, it was mentioned in the games. In fact, it is based off the Bussard ramjet, aka ram scoop, propulsion model which was theoretically invented in 1960. The Reapers don't need to discharge either (as their trip to and form deep space shows), their FTL is twice as fast, they don't need supplies and they can stay up and running for centuries 7/24. Point a ship with an OSDY drive in the same direction as a ship with a normal drive and they will end up caught at the same place by a Reaper.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Dec 13, 2016 0:21:32 GMT
Some people keep harping that the new drive tech "wouldn't have made a real difference" in the Reaper war. That of course, is nonsense. Thousands of people apparently were enabled to escape that couldn't escape before. The whole premise of the ME Trilogy was that the galaxy was caught in a Reaper trap. This introduces a way to get out of the trap. That would have been a big deal. That is a big deal. Telling folks to "get over it" isn't going to change anything. The OSDY drives doesn't offer anything over normal FTL drives to escape the Reapers trap. The speed is the same, people aboard the ship still need supplies (food, clothes, etc), they still need to sleep, they still need to make repairs. The hydrogen scoop isn't a new invention, it was mentioned in the games. In fact, it is based off the Bussard ramjet, aka ram scoop, propulsion model which was theoretically invented in 1960. The Reapers don't need to discharge either (as their trip to and form deep space shows), their FTL is twice as fast, they don't need supplies and they can stay up and running for centuries 7/24. Point a ship with an OSDY drive in the same direction as a ship with a normal drive and they will end up caught at the same place by a Reaper. Yes they do. They allow access to parts of the Milky Way that were currently inaccessible. If used to transport people to a previously undocumented garden world, that means there is a safe haven for people trying to escape the Reapers and/or a secret strike base for the various militaries. We've seen this happen before, with Ilos being spared after being removed from the Prothean records. And this garden world away from the Mass Relays would be exponentially safer.
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