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Post by Fen'Harel Faceman on Dec 13, 2016 0:21:37 GMT
Some people keep harping that the new drive tech "wouldn't have made a real difference" in the Reaper war. That of course, is nonsense. Thousands of people apparently were enabled to escape that couldn't escape before. The whole premise of the ME Trilogy was that the galaxy was caught in a Reaper trap. This introduces a way to get out of the trap. That would have been a big deal. That is a big deal. Telling folks to "get over it" isn't going to change anything. The OSDY drives doesn't offer anything over normal FTL drives to escape the Reapers trap. The speed is the same, people aboard the ship still need supplies (food, clothes, etc), they still need to sleep, they still need to make repairs. The hydrogen scoop isn't a new invention, it was mentioned in the games. In fact, it is based off the Bussard ramjet, aka ram scoop, propulsion model which was theoretically invented in 1960. The Reapers don't need to discharge either (as their trip to and form deep space shows), their FTL is twice as fast, they don't need supplies and they can stay up and running for centuries 7/24. Point a ship with an OSDY drive in the same direction as a ship with a normal drive and they will end up caught at the same place by a Reaper. Several problems with your argument. It does introduce game-changing range in the FTL technology. No drive introduced in the first three games had the range to make it to Andromeda. It does introduce an avenue for escape. Space is vast. If the Reapers are not within sensor range, they won't be able to find a fleeing fleet. Remember, the races were able to hide away construction of the super weapon from Reaper sensors during the war in ME3. If you're going to introduce that concept, then it's just as viable building more arks and nexus's and taking off to preserve some small hope for the races. This hope for escape was not present at all in the original trilogy. No FTL drive could achieve galaxy-escaping range.
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Post by Element Zero on Dec 13, 2016 0:42:54 GMT
Some people keep harping that the new drive tech "wouldn't have made a real difference" in the Reaper war. That of course, is nonsense. Thousands of people apparently were enabled to escape that couldn't escape before. The whole premise of the ME Trilogy was that the galaxy was caught in a Reaper trap. This introduces a way to get out of the trap. That would have been a big deal. That is a big deal. Telling folks to "get over it" isn't going to change anything. I said that it wouldn't have changed the outcome of the war. That isn't nonsense; that's a fact. There's no way enough vessels and drives could've been built to evacuate the trillion or so souls living in Council Space, let alone all the numberless others. Even if these ships could've been conjured by whim, where could they have fled? You yourself quite proficiently argued that the Reapers would've pursed anyone fleeing. No one is telling you to "get over it". I simply pointed out that any science fiction would crumble under concerted efforts to undermine it. Not everyone is as bothered by this ODSY Drive concept as you, Arcian, and no doubt many others are. Those who disagree are not, by default, less intelligent or foolish, as your posts often cast them. They simply disagree about its relative importance to the plot of this game and to the IP.
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Post by Fen'Harel Faceman on Dec 13, 2016 0:56:47 GMT
Some people keep harping that the new drive tech "wouldn't have made a real difference" in the Reaper war. That of course, is nonsense. Thousands of people apparently were enabled to escape that couldn't escape before. The whole premise of the ME Trilogy was that the galaxy was caught in a Reaper trap. This introduces a way to get out of the trap. That would have been a big deal. That is a big deal. Telling folks to "get over it" isn't going to change anything. I said that it wouldn't have changed the outcome of the war. That isn't nonsense; that's a fact. There's no way enough vessels and drives could've been built to evacuate the trillion or so souls living in Council Space, let alone all the numberless others. Even if these ships could've been conjured by whim, where could they have fled? You yourself quite proficiently argued that the Reapers would've pursed anyone fleeing. No one is telling you to "get over it". I simply pointed out that any science fiction would crumble under concerted efforts to undermine it. Not everyone is as bothered by this ODSY Drive concept as you, Arcian , and no doubt many others are. Those who disagree are not, by default, less intelligent or foolish, as your posts often cast them. They simply disagree about its relative importance to the plot of this game and to the IP. Nobody's telling me to get over it? Did you actually read the persons post I was responding to? The Reaper war was for survival, not just a positive military outcome. No survivors was the outcome before this engine was introduced. It would have definitely made a difference in the outcome of the war, people would have had a real chance of escape and living even if their forces were defeated - a chance not possible before this new drive was introduced for Andromeda. So yes, your point is nonsense. Also, you and others keep bringing up that trillions couldn't have escaped. I've never said trillions could have escaped. I've said it would have made possible escape for some, thus increasing the odds of species survival. Where could they have fled? Anywhere! As long as they're not in sensor range of the Reapers, they can go anywhere they choose. Any far-flung corner of the Milky Way (hello, Ilos), or another galaxy (hello tons of galaxies, stars, etc.) With the stakes as high as they are in ME3, the attempt would have been made and this drive would have made it a lot more plausible and possible than the giant unknown that was the super weapon. I did not make an argument that they would have pursued anyone fleeing. I said they would have tracked the projects inception and kept it from being enacted. They would have sabotaged it. I think someone else said that the Reapers would have just followed them to Andromeda, that wasn't me. Less intelligent and foolish? Because I think an idea is nonsense doesn't mean that the person is less intelligent or foolish. If you're reading that into what I'm saying, that's on you, not on me.
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Post by azarhal on Dec 13, 2016 1:16:10 GMT
The OSDY drives doesn't offer anything over normal FTL drives to escape the Reapers trap. The speed is the same, people aboard the ship still need supplies (food, clothes, etc), they still need to sleep, they still need to make repairs. The hydrogen scoop isn't a new invention, it was mentioned in the games. In fact, it is based off the Bussard ramjet, aka ram scoop, propulsion model which was theoretically invented in 1960. The Reapers don't need to discharge either (as their trip to and form deep space shows), their FTL is twice as fast, they don't need supplies and they can stay up and running for centuries 7/24. Point a ship with an OSDY drive in the same direction as a ship with a normal drive and they will end up caught at the same place by a Reaper. Yes they do. They allow access to parts of the Milky Way that were currently inaccessible. If used to transport people to a previously undocumented garden world, that means there is a safe haven for people trying to escape the Reapers and/or a secret strike base for the various militaries. We've seen this happen before, with Ilos being spared after being removed from the Prothean records. And this garden world away from the Mass Relays would be exponentially safer. The Asari had deep space exploration missions that lasted centuries, one even made it all the way to Earth while it was still in the Middle Age. There is no inaccessible parts in the galaxy with the normal FTL drive, there is just a crazy amount of times required to explore anything not near a Mass Relay which leaves deep space exploration to Asari and Krogan. The OSDY drive doesn't change anything to the time it requires to cover those distances. You don't need the OSDY drive to hide somewhere, normal FTL will do, then you hope that no Reapers come near to scan you and that you are properly hidden for the centuries to come until they are gone. That's actually what they did with the Crucible construction in ME3: they built it in deep space. edit: In fact, I'm wondering if the Arks and the Nexus had the time to leave the Milky Way before the Reapers showed up considering they left only 6 months earlier. They were just lucky to "escape".
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Fen'Harel Faceman
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Post by Fen'Harel Faceman on Dec 13, 2016 1:22:38 GMT
Yes they do. They allow access to parts of the Milky Way that were currently inaccessible. If used to transport people to a previously undocumented garden world, that means there is a safe haven for people trying to escape the Reapers and/or a secret strike base for the various militaries. We've seen this happen before, with Ilos being spared after being removed from the Prothean records. And this garden world away from the Mass Relays would be exponentially safer. The Asari had deep space exploration missions that lasted centuries, one even made it all the way to Earth while it was still in the Middle Age. There is no inaccessible parts in the galaxy with the normal FTL drive, there is just a crazy amount of times required to explore anything not near a Mass Relay which leaves deep space exploration to Asari and Krogan. The OSDY drive doesn't change anything to the time it requires to cover those distances. You don't need the OSDY drive to hide somewhere, normal FTL will do, then you hope that no Reapers come near to scan you and that you are properly hidden for the centuries to come until they are gone. That's actually what they did with the Crucible construction in ME3: they built it in deep space. Absolutely false. Less than 1% of the galaxy is explored in the Mass Effect universe because of the races reliance on the Mass Relay system. Long range FTL expeditions are of course extremely limited because of the range and viability of static electricity discharge locations and fuel requirements within that range. If you eliminate the need to discharge static electricity, you open up vast amounts of new paths to take in exploration. Shorter, more direct paths not contingent on locations needed for refueling and static electric discharge also would greatly reduce the travel time potential for long range exploration. As much as you'd like to discount the importance of this drive, you can't. Sorry.
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Post by Element Zero on Dec 13, 2016 1:32:18 GMT
Nobody's telling me to get over it? Did you actually read the persons post I was responding to? The Reaper war was for survival, not just a positive military outcome. No survivors was the outcome before this engine was introduced. It would have definitely made a difference in the outcome of the war, people would have had a real chance of escape and living even if their forces were defeated - a chance not possible before this new drive was introduced for Andromeda. So yes, your point is nonsense. Also, you and others keep bringing up that trillions couldn't have escaped. I've never said trillions could have escaped. I've said it would have made possible escape for some, thus increasing the odds of species survival. Where could they have fled? Anywhere! As long as they're not in sensor range of the Reapers, they can go anywhere they choose. Any far-flung corner of the Milky Way (hello, Ilos), or another galaxy (hello tons of galaxies, stars, etc.) With the stakes as high as they are in ME3, the attempt would have been made and this drive would have made it a lot more plausible and possible than the giant unknown that was the super weapon. I did not make an argument that they would have pursued anyone fleeing. I said they would have tracked the projects inception and kept it from being enacted. They would have sabotaged it. I think someone else said that the Reapers would have just followed them to Andromeda, that wasn't me. Less intelligent and foolish? Because I think an idea is nonsense doesn't mean that the person is less intelligent or foolish. If you're reading that into what I'm saying, that's on you, not on me. You're right, I clearly was wrong about no one telling you to get over it. It seems that others took a similar concept to my own and ran with it in less savory directions. My mistake for not validating. I'll address the italicized portion first, even though it's of least imprtance, lest I forget. I typically enjoy your posts quite a bit, and admire your ability to construct an argument, even when I don't agree with a given stance. You do have a tendency to get a bit personal with the inclusion of demeaning gifs and images. I could link examples, but it's not worth making this post personal, which was never my intent. If I'm reading into things, I'm likely not the only one. Back on topic, I can see that you really believe this is significant enough to undermine the entire OT. I don't disagree that some refugees could get lost in the vastness of space very easily. That's obvious. If they were able to get off the relay network far enough, and to find a habitable world or worlds, who knows? Those are big ifs, though, and no one seemed to be making serious plans to escape and/or stop the reapers until they were already harvesting. That being the case, I still don't believe that ODSY Drives would've been the substantial game-changers you believe they would be. Would I have preferred to be aboard such a vessel, rather than sitting and awaiting harvesting? Of course. Do I believe that they change the IP so significantly that we must throw our hands in the air in disgust? No, not at all.
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Post by Fen'Harel Faceman on Dec 13, 2016 1:48:37 GMT
I'll address the italicized portion first, even though it's of least imprtance, lest I forget. I typically enjoy your posts quite a bit, and admire your ability to construct an argument, even when I don't agree with a given stance. Thanks! I'll just quickly say that generally I only employ snark (gifs, etc) if it's been employed by someone else first - generally the person to whom I'm responding. Or I'll do it to be funny, if the topic is funny. So if a persons going to dish it out, they'd better be ready to take it. Even saying all that, I'm pretty mild. No mod has had to slap me down so far. Okay enough about me and my gifs and snark.
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Post by azarhal on Dec 13, 2016 3:42:02 GMT
The Asari had deep space exploration missions that lasted centuries, one even made it all the way to Earth while it was still in the Middle Age. There is no inaccessible parts in the galaxy with the normal FTL drive, there is just a crazy amount of times required to explore anything not near a Mass Relay which leaves deep space exploration to Asari and Krogan. The OSDY drive doesn't change anything to the time it requires to cover those distances. You don't need the OSDY drive to hide somewhere, normal FTL will do, then you hope that no Reapers come near to scan you and that you are properly hidden for the centuries to come until they are gone. That's actually what they did with the Crucible construction in ME3: they built it in deep space. Absolutely false. Less than 1% of the galaxy is explored in the Mass Effect universe because of the races reliance on the Mass Relay system. Long range FTL expeditions are of course extremely limited because of the range and viability of static electricity discharge locations and fuel requirements within that range. If you eliminate the need to discharge static electricity, you open up vast amounts of new paths to take in exploration. Shorter, more direct paths not contingent on locations needed for refueling and static electric discharge also would greatly reduce the travel time potential for long range exploration. As much as you'd like to discount the importance of this drive, you can't. Sorry. Long range FTL expeditions that didn't rely on Mass Relays were done by the Asari. Go read Samara's backstories, she was part of one. The drive discharge isn't a problem, exploration don't mean zapping through a system, it means to explore the place you know. The FTL drive can do ~12 light years in a day (and there is no mention it needs to discharge after that distance). Considering, the average distance between stars in the Milky Way is 5 light years, it is unlikely that a ship can't find a spot to discharge with their current speed in ME. Less than 1% is explored because the size of the galaxy is simply too big. There are 100 billions stars in the Milky Way, divide that by 365 to amuse yourself to see how long it will take in hundred of millions of years to explore each one for a single day. Even having near 1% in ME is pretty insane if you ask me.
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Post by Fen'Harel Faceman on Dec 13, 2016 4:19:29 GMT
Absolutely false. Less than 1% of the galaxy is explored in the Mass Effect universe because of the races reliance on the Mass Relay system. Long range FTL expeditions are of course extremely limited because of the range and viability of static electricity discharge locations and fuel requirements within that range. If you eliminate the need to discharge static electricity, you open up vast amounts of new paths to take in exploration. Shorter, more direct paths not contingent on locations needed for refueling and static electric discharge also would greatly reduce the travel time potential for long range exploration. As much as you'd like to discount the importance of this drive, you can't. Sorry. Long range FTL expeditions that didn't rely on Mass Relays were done by the Asari. Go read Samara's backstories, she was part of one. The drive discharge isn't a problem, exploration don't mean zapping through a system, it means to explore the place you know. The FTL drive can do ~12 light years in a day (and there is no mention it needs to discharge after that distance). Considering, the average distance between stars in the Milky Way is 5 light years, it is unlikely that a ship can't find a spot to discharge with their current speed in ME. Less than 1% is explored because the size of the galaxy is simply too big. There are 100 billions stars in the Milky Way, divide that by 365 to amuse yourself to see how long it will take in hundred of millions of years to explore each one for a single day. Even having near 1% in ME is pretty insane if you ask me. Nothing you've said discounts my points. You're also making a huge assumption that all stars have planets and all have planets that can be used for discharge. If you stumble into a system with no planets or planets with no magnetic field, you're screwed. You're also skipping over any fuel concerns. Nobody said that the Asari haven't done some exploration. Nobody said that no space exploration was possible with current FTL. The argument is simply that the new drive makes exploration easier, less time consuming, and far more possible further out from resources tied to the Mass Effect Relay system. The further you're able to get away from that system, the less likely it is you'll be detected by the Reapers if they use it to sweep through and if your mission is a tightly kept secret like Ilos during the Prothean harvest. Undeniable logic. Element zero FTL drives accumulate a static electrical charge when a vessel has been in FTL flight for some time. This charge steadily increases with the amount of time a vessel spends in FTL. Eventually, it must be discharged. The safe method involves discharging into a planet's magnetic field (for large ships, incapable of planetary landings) or actual surface contact (in the case of smaller vessels). Space stations and similar structures which are not located near planets are usually equipped with their own discharging facilities; the Citadel has dozens of these. If the drive charge cannot be discharged, it will eventually accumulate to the point at which it discharges into the ship's hull. The heat will fry everything inside; fusing the bulkheads, destroying the electronics and killing all the crewmasseffect.wikia.com/wiki/FTLLess than 1% of the galaxy is explored in great part because the galaxy is dependent on the mass relay systems. That's by design. It's emphasized right from the beginning with conversations with the Turian Specter Nihlus and Admiral Aderson. Even remote systems in the Terminus systems (like Horizon) are tied to the Mass Relay system. I already posted the math, by the way. If you're curious look back a page or so. To blame the amount of uncharted space mainly on the sheer size of the galaxy, however, is undercutting the message about the galactic societies reliance on the Mass Relay system. It's a message the game universe emphasises right at the beginning. Captain Anderson: ... But everyone agrees galactic civilization wouldn't exist without them. Nihlus: Their Citadel is the very heart of galactic society. And without their mass relays, interstellar travel would be impossible. We all owe the Protheans a great debt.
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Post by Sifr on Dec 13, 2016 4:20:49 GMT
Some people keep harping that the new drive tech "wouldn't have made a real difference" in the Reaper war. That of course, is nonsense. Thousands of people apparently were enabled to escape that couldn't escape before. The whole premise of the ME Trilogy was that the galaxy was caught in a Reaper trap. This introduces a way to get out of the trap. That would have been a big deal. That is a big deal. Telling folks to "get over it" isn't going to change anything. A few problems with your assertion is that; People would be looking for an avenue for escape as their first option.History has shown that most people's reaction to an invader is to attempt to repel them as long as possible so they can remain in their home, rather than immediately pick up sticks and try to flee. In-universe, during the Morning War the Quarians first response to the Geth Uprising was to fight back. They only fled their homeworld when it became obvious that they'd perish if they remained. Likewise, no-one's first instinct during the Reaper War was to seek a means to escape, but instead focus on trying to fight back. An Intergalactic Exodus would be seen as a viable solution.The Reapers are an extra-galactic threat who arrived in the Milky Way from Dark Space, something that's become well-known by ME3 due to Shepard's claims over the previous two games (even if they weren't initially believed). Because the Reapers are capable of travelling back and forth from Dark Space, none of the species in the Milky Way have any guarantee that they couldn't be followed if they attempted to flee to another galaxy... and this would start all over again elsewhere. Refitting existing ships with the ODSY Drive was even an option and more people could have escaped.The Ark and Nexus had ten years to plan for the trip, build their vessels specifically for the voyage and prepare cryo-pods that could function for the centuries required to travel Dark Space. Refitting a bunch of ships with the ODSY drive during the Reaper war would have been costly, resource intensive and they'd still have to contend with the issues of having reliable status units and power issues for the duration of their flight. With the majority of the species gearing up for war and devoting everything to the war effort, it would be hard to convince anyone to give up their resources so you can refit your ship solely to try and get out of Dodge. Ships with ODSY Drives within the Milky Way would have helped during the Reaper War.Again, it's doubtful it'd have any impact on the war, save for delaying the inevitable. Even if people decided to flee to the unexplored regions of the Milky Way, they still have to contend with an enemy that knows far more about the lay-out of the Galaxy than they do and has the added bonus of time on their side. The Prothean extinction took centuries, so the Reapers clearly do not care how long the Harvest can last. Anywhere in the Milky Way is safe.Since we only have explored 1% of the Milky Way and the Relay Network is still largely unmapped, how do we know that there aren't a half-dozen species in remote areas of the Milky Way currently dealing with the Reaper Harvest themselves? How much of a total schmuck would everyone feel if they dropped out of FTL somewhere that they thought was safe and "off-the-grid", only to end up in a system where the Reaper Armada are currently wiping out the local Federation of Lobster People?
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Post by Element Zero on Dec 13, 2016 4:56:27 GMT
A few problems with your assertion is that; People would be looking for an avenue for escape as their first option.History has shown that most people's reaction to an invader is to attempt to repel them as long as possible so they can remain in their home, rather than immediately pick up sticks and try to flee. In-universe, during the Morning War the Quarians first response to the Geth Uprising was to fight back. They only fled their homeworld when it became obvious that they'd perish if they remained. Likewise, no-one's first instinct during the Reaper War was to seek a means to escape, but instead focus on trying to fight back. An Intergalactic Exodus would be seen as a viable solution.The Reapers are an extra-galactic threat who arrived in the Milky Way from Dark Space, something that's become well-known by ME3 due to Shepard's claims over the previous two games (even if they weren't initially believed). Because the Reapers are capable of travelling back and forth from Dark Space, none of the species in the Milky Way have any guarantee that they couldn't be followed if they attempted to flee to another galaxy... and this would start all over again elsewhere. Refitting existing ships with the ODSY Drive was even an option and more people could have escaped.The Ark and Nexus had ten years to plan for the trip, build their vessels specifically for the voyage and prepare cryo-pods that could function for the centuries required to travel Dark Space. Refitting a bunch of ships with the ODSY drive during the Reaper war would have been costly, resource intensive and they'd still have to contend with the issues of having reliable status units and power issues for the duration of their flight. With the majority of the species gearing up for war and devoting everything to the war effort, it would be hard to convince anyone to give up their resources so you can refit your ship solely to try and get out of Dodge. Ships with ODSY Drives within the Milky Way would have helped during the Reaper War.Again, it's doubtful it'd have any impact on the war, save for delaying the inevitable. Even if people decided to flee to the unexplored regions of the Milky Way, they still have to contend with an enemy that knows far more about the lay-out of the Galaxy than they do and has the added bonus of time on their side. The Prothean extinction took centuries, so the Reapers clearly do not care how long the Harvest can last. Anywhere in the Milky Way is safe.Since we only have explored 1% of the Milky Way and the Relay Network is still largely unmapped, how do we know that there aren't a half-dozen species in remote areas of the Milky Way currently dealing with the Reaper Harvest themselves? How much of a total schmuck would everyone feel if we dropped out of FTL somewhere that we thought was safe and "off-the-grid", only to end up in a system where the Reaper Armada are currently wiping out the local Federation of Lobster People? I'm glad you revisited these points and brought them together into a single post. Using my phone made the simple act of participating in a conversation a hurdle, earlier, and I couldn't gather and format my thoughts in the proper fashion. This is very much in line with what I wanted to say, as can hopefully be gleaned from my posts. You've said it much more succinctly. These points are why I think the Andromeda storyline, as far as the ODSY Drive goes, works well enough. Fen'Harel Faceman makes a good case for his view of this "alternate ODSY-tech Milky Way"; it's just no stronger than what BioWare has chosen to implement, in my view. All things being equal (in my estimation, of course), I'm feeling more optimistic about this game than I'd expected to feel some months ago. I have to admit, I'm looking forward to the game giving us something new to discuss. Pre-release tech talk can sustain one for a time, but I'd enjoy some Andromeda species lore to dissect and pore over about now. Hopefully, sooner than later. Reminds me to drop in on the DA threads I've been neglecting.
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Post by Fen'Harel Faceman on Dec 13, 2016 5:43:06 GMT
A few problems with your assertion is that; People would be looking for an avenue for escape as their first option.History has shown that most people's reaction to an invader is to attempt to repel them as long as possible so they can remain in their home, rather than immediately pick up sticks and try to flee. In-universe, during the Morning War the Quarians first response to the Geth Uprising was to fight back. They only fled their homeworld when it became obvious that they'd perish if they remained. Likewise, no-one's first instinct during the Reaper War was to seek a means to escape, but instead focus on trying to fight back. Not applicable to those "in the know". As per Shepard, fighting the Reapers was only an option when they were out of options. There was no known means of escape. The new drive provides an option far less risky than building a super weapon of mysterious origins. All races saw the devastating power of just one Reaper. Running would be a very viable option, for at least a small segment, in the very likely case the war goes south. I never made any case for any guarantees. As a matter of fact, I think the whole drive project would have been sabotaged before it was put into prototype. But considering it did make it that far, it would have been an option for attempting to run, buy time. Barring any detection by the Reapers of escaping ships, it would have bought a segment of the race considerable time to survive, study Prothean data, devise strategies for avoiding detection. Remember, the Reapers are set up to wipe out civilizations built on the paths of the Relays. They always stop races from acquiring the ability to significantly step away from the mouse trap. Again, the game ME3 made it clear they set aside a space for the races to fight the Reapers while throwing vast resources at a massive problem. That same story could have been told replacing or adding the new drives. Can't buy one silly scenario without buying the other. Both are just as implausible but the implausible is built into the story. What really should have happened is the Reapers attack the Citadel, take it, shut down the Mass Relay system and wipe out one star system at a time, just as they'd always done. But Mac Walters and Casey Hudson. Nuff said. Additionally, Bioware could (or should, in light of this new tech) have cast the story that while they were building these arks and nexus publicly, secretly they built some others in preparation for the return of the Reapers in case the war went south. Again, you're referring to the Reapers and their method of utilizing the Mass Relay system. The new drive could be utilized, before or after the Reaper arrival, to travel outside that system and hide within the galaxy or escape to other galaxies. It's not a perfect solution but it would have been a viable one. It is possible to hide from the Reapers. Remember Ilos. Remember the Normandy stealth systems. That's not the story of Mass Effect. The story is, once every 50,000 years they do their harvest thing. The Reapers would have had to shut down different parts of the Relay network so that different harvests wouldn't be interrupted by other segments. There is no indication of this in the story, either of shut down relays or multiple overlapping harvests. In fact this one harvest for the galaxy is confirmed when Shepard is talking with the Star Brat and the Leviathans. The only brake on Relay use is the Council. Not the Reapers.
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Post by Ahriman on Dec 13, 2016 6:50:37 GMT
I'm personally just tired of repeating same obvious (to me apparently) things over and over again, but at least someone isn't yet. Right now I can only hope to see more sense in all this than it's currently shown. Even though writers don't feel the need to explain these things, their purpose is to serve as some background fluff after all, being interesting only for a small amount of old fans.
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Post by Sifr on Dec 13, 2016 8:56:14 GMT
Again, you're referring to the Reapers and their method of utilizing the Mass Relay system. The new drive could be utilized, before or after the Reaper arrival, to travel outside that system and hide within the galaxy or escape to other galaxies. It's not a perfect solution but it would have been a viable one. It is possible to hide from the Reapers. Remember Ilos. Remember the Normandy stealth systems. On Ilos they froze themselves and waited for the Reapers to leave. And they waited. And they waited. And as the centuries went by, the facility was forced to conserve it's remaining power, so began to shut down the cryo-pods of non-essential personnel... until only about a dozen were left out out of hundreds, if not thousands of sleepers. Even if everything had gone smoothly with Javik's Enclave (everyone got into stasis, the power and revival systems were not sabotaged/damaged), they would have faced the same issue of having their numbers diminished by the centuries spent waiting for the Reapers to return to Dark Space. We saw that Victory was designed to follow the same protocol and conserve power by shutting down non-essential pods, so had their plan been successful, Javik would have still awoken to a vastly reduced number than he was expecting. On the Normandy, the stealth systems can allow people to remain hidden for lengthy periods of time... that is until the heatsinks storing all that excess energy begin to start cooking everyone in the ship. Furthermore, the opening of ME2 showed that even with the stealth systems engaged, the Collectors could still see them. ME3 seems to imply that the Reaper IFF and EDI attempts to mimic a Reaper profile was able to camouflage the Normandy somewhat, but overt actions like scanning gave the game away. The key point that you're missing is that escape or hiding is not as good an option as you seem to think. (Long Explanation)For a ship to float around between stars or in Dark Space to wait out the Reapers, they'd need to be able to keep that ship powered for a long period of time, especially if the crew wants to wait it out in stasis. Save for the Reapers, none of the species are currently capable of powering a ship for that long, even when kept on low-power mode and sitting idle.
The Nexus and the Ark only can because they're built around a Bussard Ramjet that collects hydrogen and the ODSY drive recycles the static build up from FTL, converting them into fuel. If they want to keep powered during the intergalactic voyage, they have to keep moving at FTL.
A regular ship in the Milky Way cannot remain at FTL indefinitely, due to the static buildup on the hull. Even if they were fitted with the ODSY drive to allow them to remain in FTL longer and recycle the static energy back, they still risk the problem of running out of fuel eventually, because a 1:1 conversion ratio is nigh-impossible. They would have to drop out of FTL eventually to try to find more fuel... and this would allow them to be detected.
A stealth system might be useful in that instance to hide it's emissions, but eventually the ship would be forced to either shut down the drive or jump back into FTL when the heat sinks hit maximum capacity. But as pointed out earlier, the prologue of ME2 shows that the Collectors were able to see through the Normandy's stealth systems. It's not clear whether it was engaged when travelling through the debris field surrounding the Collector Base, but either way, the Oculus Drones were still able to detect the SR2. (Short Explanation)Each of these options have major drawbacks that make them non-viable. Stealth has a finite lifespan and the Reapers can see through it. Putting people in Cryo is extremely power-intensive. No-one would last long waiting between Systems and in Dark Space without Cryo. Refitting ships with the ODSY drive will take time they don't have. ODSY ships need to keep moving to replenish fuel reserves.
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Fen'Harel Faceman
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Post by Fen'Harel Faceman on Dec 13, 2016 9:19:11 GMT
Again, you're referring to the Reapers and their method of utilizing the Mass Relay system. The new drive could be utilized, before or after the Reaper arrival, to travel outside that system and hide within the galaxy or escape to other galaxies. It's not a perfect solution but it would have been a viable one. It is possible to hide from the Reapers. Remember Ilos. Remember the Normandy stealth systems. On Ilos they froze themselves and waited for the Reapers to leave. And they waited. And they waited. And as the centuries went by, the facility was forced to conserve it's remaining power, so began to shut down the cryo-pods of non-essential personnel... until only about a dozen were left out out of hundreds, if not thousands of sleepers. Even if everything had gone smoothly with Javik's Enclave (everyone got into stasis, the power and revival systems were not sabotaged/damaged), they would have faced the same issue of having their numbers diminished by the centuries spent waiting for the Reapers to return to Dark Space. We saw that Victory was designed to follow the same protocol and conserve power by shutting down non-essential pods, so had their plan been successful, Javik would have still awoken to a vastly reduced number than he was expecting. On the Normandy, the stealth systems can allow people to remain hidden for lengthy periods of time... that is until the heatsinks storing all that excess energy begin to start cooking everyone in the ship. Furthermore, the opening of ME2 showed that even with the stealth systems engaged, the Collectors could still see them. ME3 seems to imply that the Reaper IFF and EDI attempts to mimic a Reaper profile was able to camouflage the Normandy somewhat, but overt actions like scanning gave the game away. The key point that you're missing is that escape or hiding is not as good an option as you seem to think. (Long Explanation)For a ship to float around between stars or in Dark Space to wait out the Reapers, they'd need to be able to keep that ship powered for a long period of time, especially if the crew wants to wait it out in stasis. Save for the Reapers, none of the species are currently capable of powering a ship for that long, even when kept on low-power mode and sitting idle.
The Nexus and the Ark only can because they're built around a Bussard Ramjet that collects hydrogen and the ODSY drive recycles the static build up from FTL, converting them into fuel. If they want to keep powered during the intergalactic voyage, they have to keep moving at FTL.
A regular ship in the Milky Way cannot remain at FTL indefinitely, due to the static buildup on the hull. Even if they were fitted with the ODSY drive to allow them to remain in FTL longer and recycle the static energy back, they still risk the problem of running out of fuel eventually, because a 1:1 conversion ratio is nigh-impossible. They would have to drop out of FTL eventually to try to find more fuel... and this would allow them to be detected.
A stealth system might be useful in that instance to hide it's emissions, but eventually the ship would be forced to either shut down the drive or jump back into FTL when the heat sinks hit maximum capacity. But as pointed out earlier, the prologue of ME2 shows that the Collectors were able to see through the Normandy's stealth systems. It's not clear whether it was engaged when travelling through the debris field surrounding the Collector Base, but either way, the Oculus Drones were still able to detect the SR2. (Short Explanation)Each of these options have major drawbacks that make them non-viable. Stealth has a finite lifespan and the Reapers can see through it. Putting people in Cryo is extremely power-intensive. No-one would last long waiting between Systems and in Dark Space without Cryo. Refitting ships with the ODSY drive will take time they don't have. ODSY ships need to keep moving to replenish fuel reserves. Ilos was in the Relay system. So all your comparisons based on the Reapers sensing them as easily as the Protheans based on Ilos are irrelevant. I keep pointing out that leaving the Relay system is the way to go. The Reapers don't hunt outside of that. They have a certain methodology, per Vigil. If the conditions are met that Andromeda predisposes 1.) The drive is built undetected by Reapers and 2.) They are able to leave undetected by Reapers Then it follows right after Arrival and afterwards it's possible that a contingent of survivors can escape the Relays system when the Reaper threat becomes more imminent. The new drive gives more range to do so. The stealth drive gives more chance to do so undetected. Find planet to live on nowhere near Relay system. Hide. Plan. Profit. Edit: And pay as much attention to detail to this part that's supposed to be in the story as they do to the rest of the story.
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Post by armass81 on Dec 13, 2016 9:46:28 GMT
"And without their mass relays, interstellar travel would be impossible."
This quote by Nihlus makes no sense to be honest, since its not impossible, it would just take a longer time. If it would be impossible, no one could have gone and build those mass relays out there anyway. It would not even be impossible without FTL, as there can be sub light travel with generation ships, as that one human splinter colony demonstrated that was found in was it Alph Centauri and captured those asari.
Hes probably right though that galactic civilization as the species are now, separated into the many corners of the Milky Way due to the reaper harvests, that would be aheck of a lot more rare to see, if at all. Of course since Andromeda had no reapers, there should be plentiful of civilizations in there, even inside a single cluster.
However youd also expect to see older, more advanced civilizations since there were no reaper harvests, the fact that we see Andromedan civilizations on 2785 that are pretty much on our MW level of the year 2185, how much sense does that make really? Only super civilization there seems to be in the neigbourhood for now is the remnant. Makes me wonder is this bioware incompetence again forced by game mechanics or is there a deeper meaning here (a filter system in andromeda as there was in a milky way, only a bit different)?
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Post by Sifr on Dec 13, 2016 10:02:44 GMT
Ilos was in the Relay system. So all your comparisons based on the Reapers sensing them as easily as the Protheans based on Ilos are irrelevant. I keep pointing out that leaving the Relay system is the way to go. The Reapers don't hunt outside of that. They have a certain methodology, per Vigil. The Reapers only hunting along the Relay Network is not backed up anywhere in the lore. According to Vigil and Javik, they hunted them methodically, system by system, across the entire galaxy. Considering that the Reapers are the creators of the Relay Network, are you seriously suggesting that they would not only fail to place Mass Relays in certain locations of the galaxy, but also fail to bother to check whether life developed in those locations, as well as whether people were hiding there to escape the Harvest? With 99% of the Milky Way unexplored in Mass Effect and the Relay Network largely uncharted, how do we not know the Reapers haven't got them littered around the entire Milky Way, so that nowhere is completely off-the-grid? Even with humanity opening every single Relay they could get their hands on to explore (dozens apparently), it still took them 8 years before they finally managed to connect to the section of the network used by the rest of the Citadel species. From this we can infer that the Relay Network is way larger than we ever saw in the game and we have no clue how far it fully extends or widespread it is. Due to the sanctions placed by the Council to prevent another Rachni War, no-one else really knows either. Either way, the Reapers probably do check every system when they carry out a Harvest, because they've had millions of years to refine the process. They would have learned to check the streets not on the bus lane, long before now.
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Post by ssanyesz on Dec 13, 2016 15:55:14 GMT
The crew (or part of the crew) may also wake up from time to time to check on things, then go back into stasis. You know, make sure the VIs/AIs aren't plotting to rebel I forgot about Synthetic Insights! You make a good point. I was leaning more towards the AI research that was being done at the Luna base which lead to EDI's creation. Which ironically is literally right around the corner from where the Ark is being built. Very random thought that just occurred to me. It'd be interesting the VI/AI is Quarian. They are the AI experts in the universe. I know the Quarians are a favorite species of a lot of fans. This might be a way to have them "in game" without having them in Andromeda. The only reason I say this is that I find it hard to believe a significant number of Quarians would abandon their race to try and populate Andromeda when there are so few of them around. Or maybe an exiled mad quarian scientist want to explore the Andromeda too At least a few missing quarian wouldn't hurt anybody
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Post by Arcian on Dec 13, 2016 16:11:25 GMT
Either way, the Reapers probably do check every system when they carry out a Harvest, because they've had millions of years to refine the process. They would have learned to check the streets not on the bus lane, long before now. Chris L'Etoile actually explained this, and it turns out they're not quite as methodical as people think they are.
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Post by Iakus on Dec 13, 2016 16:44:51 GMT
The OSDY drives doesn't offer anything over normal FTL drives to escape the Reapers trap. The speed is the same, people aboard the ship still need supplies (food, clothes, etc), they still need to sleep, they still need to make repairs. The hydrogen scoop isn't a new invention, it was mentioned in the games. In fact, it is based off the Bussard ramjet, aka ram scoop, propulsion model which was theoretically invented in 1960. The Reapers don't need to discharge either (as their trip to and form deep space shows), their FTL is twice as fast, they don't need supplies and they can stay up and running for centuries 7/24. Point a ship with an OSDY drive in the same direction as a ship with a normal drive and they will end up caught at the same place by a Reaper. Yes they do. They allow access to parts of the Milky Way that were currently inaccessible. If used to transport people to a previously undocumented garden world, that means there is a safe haven for people trying to escape the Reapers and/or a secret strike base for the various militaries. We've seen this happen before, with Ilos being spared after being removed from the Prothean records. And this garden world away from the Mass Relays would be exponentially safer. This is true. With ODSY drives, the Reaper cycles are effectively over. Ships cannot be tracked in FTL. So a ship that doesn't need to discharge can effectively hide forever or until they find a garden world that's off the grid.
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Post by Iakus on Dec 13, 2016 16:55:43 GMT
The Asari had deep space exploration missions that lasted centuries, one even made it all the way to Earth while it was still in the Middle Age. I'm going to need a citation on that one
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Post by sgtsteel91 on Dec 13, 2016 17:58:13 GMT
Have people forgotten that no one believed the Reapers were coming until, like, 6 months before they arrived, in which they then blitz most of the homeworlds and left everyone scrambling?
I don't think the ODSY drives would do much other than delay the Reapers more until the Cruicble was built.
Either way you still have to choose Red, Blue, or Green in the end.
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Post by azarhal on Dec 13, 2016 18:31:32 GMT
Yes they do. They allow access to parts of the Milky Way that were currently inaccessible. If used to transport people to a previously undocumented garden world, that means there is a safe haven for people trying to escape the Reapers and/or a secret strike base for the various militaries. We've seen this happen before, with Ilos being spared after being removed from the Prothean records. And this garden world away from the Mass Relays would be exponentially safer. This is true. With ODSY drives, the Reaper cycles are effectively over. Ships cannot be tracked in FTL. So a ship that doesn't need to discharge can effectively hide forever or until they find a garden world that's off the grid. From the wiki: To an outside observer, a ship within a mass effect drive envelope appears to have blue-shifted. If within a field that allows travel at twice the speed of light, any radiation it emits has twice the energy as normal. If the ship is in a field of about 200 times lightspeed, it radiates visible light as x-rays and gamma rays, and the infrared heat from the hull is blue-shifted up into the visible spectrum or higher.
Ships moving at FTL are visible at great distances, though their signature will only propagate at the speed of light. According to Engineer Adams, the SSV Normandy's stealth system does not work at FTL speeds because that blue-shifts the ship's emissions into frequencies too high to capture in the hull sinks.If you can detect infrared, x-rays and gamma rays, you can spot a ship in FTL. The Asari had deep space exploration missions that lasted centuries, one even made it all the way to Earth while it was still in the Middle Age. I'm going to need a citation on that one It appears it was "cut content" from Lair for the Shadowbroker, but I'm pretty sure I read that in-game and had Samara talks about her exploration days. Oh well.
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Post by Iakus on Dec 13, 2016 19:25:21 GMT
This is true. With ODSY drives, the Reaper cycles are effectively over. Ships cannot be tracked in FTL. So a ship that doesn't need to discharge can effectively hide forever or until they find a garden world that's off the grid. From the wiki: To an outside observer, a ship within a mass effect drive envelope appears to have blue-shifted. If within a field that allows travel at twice the speed of light, any radiation it emits has twice the energy as normal. If the ship is in a field of about 200 times lightspeed, it radiates visible light as x-rays and gamma rays, and the infrared heat from the hull is blue-shifted up into the visible spectrum or higher.
Ships moving at FTL are visible at great distances, though their signature will only propagate at the speed of light. According to Engineer Adams, the SSV Normandy's stealth system does not work at FTL speeds because that blue-shifts the ship's emissions into frequencies too high to capture in the hull sinks.If you can detect infrared, x-rays and gamma rays, you can spot a ship in FTL. From the Codex on Space Combat: Space Combat: Pursuit Tactics Dependent on light, sensors cannot detect objects moving at a faster-than-light speeds. No ship can be detected at interstellar ranges. Detection at interplanetary ranges suffers from light speed lag: observers see ships not where they appear to be but where they were when the light bearing their image left them, minutes, hours, or days before. To counteract light speed lag, battle fleets surround themselves with spheres of screen and scouting frigates.
Pursuers cannot detect ships and directly intercept them. Instead, pursuers track where objects were, where they were heading, and at what speed they were moving. Such data reliably predicts an object's future location and for pursuit along its light-lagged "wake". Ships trying to evade pursuit follow erratic zigzag courses, requiring pursuers to make stops to update their projections.
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Post by themikefest on Dec 13, 2016 19:26:01 GMT
Have people forgotten that no one believed the Reapers were coming until, like, 6 months before they arrived, in which they then blitz most of the homeworlds and left everyone scrambling? Did anyone know it was 6 months? The only heads up that was given was from Kenson who said it could be months or years before the reapers show up to the next relay if the alpha relay were destroyed. They wouldn't make a difference The player could choose refuse if he/she wants
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